you proved pain's point by bring up hinata if she didn't jump in naruto would have been captured. So naruto had hinata's help in the fight, not fare. Also did you forget he wasn't trying to kill naruto.
Dont you see that Naruto gave up? After Pains explanation of life and the futility of finding true peace, Naruto stopped believing in himself bro, he was ready to be taken until Hinata came along. If Naruto had help from the plot, then so did Pain.
but are you saying that pain/Nagato wasn't better then Naruto?
because at that point in the story the six paths of pain...hell deva path alone was MUCH better then Naruto in my opinion and it's very obvious Kishi wanted people to know this.
And talk no jutsu and plot no jutsu are a very real thing, the thing is without those to Naruto wouldn't even be worth watching
so I thank Kishimoto and 99.9% of all people who have written a manga and have used plot no jutsu/talk no jutsu in its many different forms. Maybe Im completely missing what your saying but is that the gist of it?
To me, the term "plot no jutsu" does actually have it's use, but that is ONLY in versus threads. In a versus thread, it's all about the character's power and not at all about the manga and the story it's trying to tell. So the term in this case is used when somebody brings up a fight as a proof that one character defeats another, when the fight in reality was only lost by one of the characters due to the fact that it was for the continuation of the plot. IF the battle in the manga was entirely fair, and by that I mean plot related circumstances do not dictate the scenario, the result may very well have been different. That is why the terms "plot no jutsu" and "talk no jutsu" do in fact have a meaning, although they are misused a lot.
Would Pein have already used like half of his chakra fighting the Leaf?
Would Pein not have been able to use his strongest path for the entirety of Naruto beating his others?
Would Naruto have had 3 clones sucking up sage chakra for him back in frog-land?
Would Hinata jump out of nowhere and make Naruto SO angry that he lets go of his control over the Kyuubi?
Would Nagato be trying to capture Naruto while Naruto is trying to kill him?
The answer is, that in a fair fight, no, these would not happen. They all happened because of plot. It doesn't take away from the fight, but it does make it an incorrect example for people who say that Naruto is better than Pein because he "won" the fight in the manga. In a fair fight, without all of these things working in favor of Naruto winning, it would have ended entirely differently.
I am terribly sorry, but everything you say goes out the door, after I read the very first point this is what I wanted to answer it with, and mind you this makes all arguments obsolete, heres how I know Tobi isnt lying
People say naruto lost because hinata saved him because he lost...fact.
And even if nagato's rinnegan was givin to him he still fights with it on his own. Naruto was not controlling himself. So if you think about it he was saved in that fight twice...fact.
And it's not hard to assume that perhaps tobi just knew nagato had the eyes and kept a close eye on him. Why do i say that? Remember when sasuke got itachi's eyes? Look what he had to go through and explain why nagato didnt go through any of that.
That fact of the matter is that naruto was saved by a girl and a tailed beast, both times he was saved it was by something that was for the most part if not completely out of his control. Pain was in control of the power he was "given" if you decide to believe that.
Would Pein have already used like half of his chakra fighting the Leaf?
Would Pein not have been able to use his strongest path for the entirety of Naruto beating his others?
Would Naruto have had 3 clones sucking up sage chakra for him back in frog-land?
Would Hinata jump out of nowhere and make Naruto SO angry that he lets go of his control over the Kyuubi?
Would Nagato be trying to capture Naruto while Naruto is trying to kill him?
The answer is, that in a fair fight, no, these would not happen. They all happened because of plot. It doesn't take away from the fight, but it does make it an incorrect example for people who say that Naruto is better than Pein because he "won" the fight in the manga. In a fair fight, without all of these things working in favor of Naruto winning, it would have ended entirely differently.
Ok since we're being fair, lets not forget about the fact that Naruto wasnt using the Kyuubi for the first half. Let me remind you that just like Pains Rinnegan, the Kyuubi is Naruto's own weapon, he has used it every step of the way, every important fight. So why should he have to hold back that power? If we're being fair the six tailed jinchuuriki vs Pain is Naruto vs Pain. Naruto had the upper hand against Orochimaru with 4 tails and the number of tails increases proportionally to the strength of the enemy. That is a Jinchuurikis power, Narutos power and he thwarted Shinra and Chibaku Tensei with that power.
And if you were really being fair, you would compare Pain and Naruto at the full extent of their power. Narutos win was well deserved, he even resisted Nagato while being 4 feet away from him. To the victor belong the spoils of war.
lemme make this simple for you and everyone else who agrees with this thread...
all fan boys hate it when their character has obvious "plot" winning the fights for them..
and everyone who is disagreeing with this thread, isn't a nagato/pain fan boy.. their negative response to this comes from naruto fan boys (creator of this thread) that are blind enough to say that naruto>>>>>nagato when in both fights its so obvious who beats who.
I agree with you, I don't really care for the phrase "plot no jutsu" either. The entire story is plot. If any of you have ever written a story before, you would know that anything and everything in the realm is at your disposal. You're the creator. If Kishi wants Neji to be knocked out in one punch, then he is. If he wants Nagato to sacrifice himself at the end, then that's what's going to happen. Your opinions on who is stronger and who should have really won are simply that, it is your OPINION. The story will always remain the same, your opinion will never change that.
I also agree that by saying that, it does under mind the realization and final change of Nagato. That Naruto, when faced with the opportunity for revenge, chose the path of peace by sparing Nagato, unlike his counter part Sasuke. It is a grand moment in the manga and one of my favorite parts of the whole story. I get a little teary every time I read it. So to say "oh that was just because of the plot" is ridiculous, because the entirety of the story is because of plot. Otherwise people wouldn't like reading if it was all over the place and followed the randomness that is real life. What God Of Wind is trying to get at is, as much fun as debating is, the lot of you are looking to deeply into the manga in the wrong way. So bent on "facts" that you're missing the deep social and spiritual commentary in the story. It's not that Naruto won because of plot, it's that that fight was a very important part in the story and was crucial in his personal development in finding and staying true to his ninja way. So just sit back and enjoy the story.
People say naruto lost because hinata saved him because he lost...fact.
And even if nagato's rinnegan was givin to him he still fights with it on his own. Naruto was not controlling himself. So if you think about it he was saved in that fight twice...fact.
And it's not hard to assume that perhaps tobi just knew nagato had the eyes and kept a close eye on him. Why do i say that? Remember when sasuke got itachi's eyes? Look what he had to go through and explain why nagato didnt go through any of that.
That fact of the matter is that naruto was saved by a girl and a tailed beast, both times he was saved it was by something that was for the most part if not completely out of his control. Pain was in control of the power he was "given" if you decide to believe that.
fine then pain was given the opportunity to get naruto because of pa .... in a fight nothing matters a win is a win and a loss is a loss ... it was pains mistake to not kill naruto regardless of his plans ... it is apart of the fight
fine then pain was given the opportunity to get naruto because of pa .... in a fight nothing matters a win is a win and a loss is a loss ... it was pains mistake to not kill naruto regardless of his plans ... it is apart of the fight
Im not arguing that fact that naruto ultimatley won, that wouldnt make sense.
Im just saying that i understand why people say pain>naruto...Because it's true. Pain came to that fight with 6 bodies just like naruto came their with 6. The 3 giant toads and ma and pa and himself. Using pain was only able to get to naruto because of pa is just like saying naruto was only able to get to pain because he beat the other bodies. The frogs were apart of the fight, i could see if he pulled someone that wasnt there or wasnt fighting. But thats not the case. Sage mode and Pain fought with even odds. Sage mode vs rinnegan(you could argue thats not even), 6 bodies vs 5 frogs and naruto, pain exhausted from destroying the village and naruto exhausted because i believe he was still in the middle of training. Pain won sage mode vs pain. Then it because sage mode vs 9 tails and that fight was kinda even because when the nine tails was sealed deva path was disappointed and said he wanted to test its power, indicating he was still more than able to fight.
Im not saying that pain won in the end or should of, im just saying that pain>sage mode.
Ok since we're being fair, lets not forget about the fact that Naruto wasnt using the Kyuubi for the first half. Let me remind you that just like Pains Rinnegan, the Kyuubi is Naruto's own weapon, he has used it every step of the way, every important fight. So why should he have to hold back that power? If we're being fair the six tailed jinchuuriki vs Pain is Naruto vs Pain. Naruto had the upper hand against Orochimaru with 4 tails and the number of tails increases proportionally to the strength of the enemy. That is a Jinchuurikis power, Narutos power and he thwarted Shinra and Chibaku Tensei with that power.
And if you were really being fair, you would compare Pain and Naruto at the full extent of their power. Narutos win was well deserved, he even resisted Nagato while being 4 feet away from him. To the victor belong the spoils of war.
Well then exactly! You JUST proved yourself that plot gets in the way of a fair fight. IF this had been a fair fight, Naruto would have used his most powerful asset in the nine tailed fox instead of trying to supress it, which he was doing because of a plot related incident (him hurting Sakura while in 4 tailed mode).
And I ALWAYS compare at the full extent of power. At that time though, we didn't know Nagato's full extent of power. So I used Pein instead.
But you basically said yourself that in a fair fight, plot cannot be counted. Which is why when somebody brings up a fight in which plot was heavily involved in defining the circumstances of the fight as proof that one ninja is better than another, they are not necessarily correct, because of the aptly named "plot no jutsu".
They are both reasonable men, not animals like Deidara and Hidan. Naruto and Nagato's beliefs are followed by their actions. It is important to them.....why they do what they do.
But you basically said yourself that in a fair fight, plot cannot be counted. Which is why when somebody brings up a fight in which plot was heavily involved in defining the circumstances of the fight as proof that one ninja is better than another, they are not necessarily correct, because of the aptly named "plot no jutsu".
First of all I am really starting to dislike the word "plot", and no that is not what im implying. Even though the manga is fiction, it should be looked at as no less than the way real life events take form. Every man has his story, having a fair fight somewhere in your own imagination doesnt change how it really happened. The chain of events that occur in Naruto are no different from the one's in real life. Bottom line is Naruto is the hero that defeated Pain.
They are both reasonable men, not animals like Deidara and Hidan. Naruto and Nagato's beliefs are followed by their actions. It is important to them.....why they do what they do.
First of all I am really starting to dislike the word "plot", and no that is not what im implying. Even though the manga is fiction, it should be looked at as no less than the way real life events take form. Every man has his story, having a fair fight somewhere in your own imagination doesnt change how it really happened. The chain of events that occur in Naruto are no different from the one's in real life. Bottom line is Naruto is the hero that defeated Pain.
who the hell are you to judge them and call them animals?? Hidan believes in his religion and that's why he does what he does.. Deidara is like an anti government anarchist.. respect his way of life :flaw:
you only hate the word "plot" because its Naruto's most powerful jutsu and without it, he'd be dead a million times by now.. so how about YOU just sit back, stop b*tching, and enjoy the show with a nice :ice:
So who here thinks that Naruto's victory over pain was a sham? Or that Naruto only won because God Mode was handicapped? Or that Naruto used "talk no jutsu" or "plot no jutsu" to get one over Pain? For all those who believe in any of these things I have a little message for you............
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And this here.....
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Let me even the odds a bit, Nagato recieved the Rinnegan from Madara and Naruto recieved the Kyuubi from Yondaime Hokage. The ultimate eyes against the ultimate chakra!
If Pain didnt use God Mode against Senjutsu, Naruto didnt use the Kyuubis chakra until Hinata got hurt, the odds were perfectly even. But the indivuals were not!
Let me first express how much I hate the phrase "plot/talk no jutsu" and the people who use it.....well not as much as I hate the phrase itself
If Naruto used talk jutsu to make Pain have a change of heart, then how did you forget about this?
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Ill tell you why, because this phenomenon, yes Im talking about "talk no jutsu" does not exist your usage of this phrase demeans the true essence of Naruto and frankly opens the door to a whole new world of shit for the manga, the fans and the forum.
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Pain is the only person in history to have almost broken Naruto's spirit. Naruto was losing hope in himself and gradually starting to believe in Nagato's way, because he could not let go of his hatred for Jiraiyas death, it is what he was fighting the 6 Paths with, before losing himself to the Kyuubi!
Nagato and Naruto were two people who had the strength and will to make a drastic impact on the world in their own ways. It had nothing to do with a prophecy from some old sage, not to say that it wasnt true. But it wasnt because of talk jutsu when Nagato realised how his life's decision was a mistake and how he had strayed from his true path. These are elements which are important to the story and the building blocks of Naruto as a manga, for those of you who dont see it that way........I am sorry to say, you should read or watch something else pleaseU_U
Nagato did not do a 180 flip because of a few words, Naruto told him he would not give up or stray from his path no matter what kind of "Pain" came his way, it was an indication on Nagatos life and how his Pain made him think of only destruction. But Naruto meant "I will be different", that no matter what happens "I wont change"! Nagato was thoroughly impressed by Naruto's performance before then and truly believed that just like his Rinnegan, Naruto possessed a power to change the world.
Also did you forget he wasn't trying to kill naruto.
