Let me take one of your examples: Sakura made the antidote because Sasori was too proud of his poison to kill Kankuro. Chiyo ended up going cuz she hadnt seen her grandson in over 20 years. Sasori didnt have some random change of heart because of "plot", its statements like that take credibility away from the manga and Kishis ability to write it. The story flows perfectly explaining every detail along the way, and yet people dont think its fair cuz thier fanboys.
I want to explain Sasori's "random" change of heart.......You just met your grandmother after 20 years. Can you imagine the amount of nostalgia generating from the meeting, let alone the fight. Especially if that person taught you everthing you know.
Plot didnt make Sasori give up, in a way Sasori did the same thing Nagato did, he acknowledged Sakuras strength, and deemed them both(chiyo n sakura) as opponents worthy enough to get killed by.
Why didnt Sasori move? The answer is comprehensive only if you forego this element of plot. As a child he would make his Father and Mothers puppets hug him everyday. When Chiyo made that last attack, all Sasori saw were his Father and Mother coming at him for an embrace, and that is why he COULDNT move, he froze!
I am old enough to understand these sentiments and they play a big part in a fight if it is Grandmother vs Grandson, as they should. That is how I watch Naruto.
You do understand that in HYPOTHETICAL BATTLES BETWEEN CHARACTERS...
NONE of that matters.
In a HYPOTHETICAL BATTLE, Sakura does not have an antidote.
Sasori is fighting 1 vs 1, not 2 vs 1.
And Sasori didn't move so the plot could continue. If he had, he would have killed Sakura and Chiyo. The situation does have reason, but it forms part of the plot. No matter what, he had to lose. There was no way he wouldn't, otherwise, the story wouldn't progress. In a true battle to kill, he moves, and wins. He had the power too move. He had the ability. And that is what we are trying to gauge.
Here's an example. The way you portray this, if a professional basketball player goes easy on some high schoolers, and "loses", that means that the high schoolers are better basketball players. It's the exact line of logic that you are using, and you can see that it is ridiculous. The sentiment is pity, or maybe modesty. I'm sure that you would argue that no matter what, he would play with that pity, and so no matter what, he would lose. And maybe he would! But does that make those high school players better? No.
In my eyes Pain truly had no chance against Naruto, AND THE REAL NAGATO COULD NOT HAVE FOUGHT NARUTO BECAUSE OF HIS WEAKEN CHAKRA STATE ALL HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO IS ABSORB ALL THAT CHAKRA
Naruto beat pain thats a fact lets leave it there if kishi wanted pain to win he would have won i also hate the plot no jutsu excuse that people give when the battle is not set in stone if the fight was one sided no one would even like that fight naruto beat pain with extremely high difficulty thats a fact
Here's an example. The way you portray this, if a professional basketball player goes easy on some high schoolers, and "loses", that means that the high schoolers are better basketball players. It's the exact line of logic that you are using, and you can see that it is ridiculous. The sentiment is pity, or maybe modesty. I'm sure that you would argue that no matter what, he would play with that pity, and so no matter what, he would lose. And maybe he would! But does that make those high school players better? No.
Youre talking about a sport thats played for "money", this is a fight to the death. But that situation in basketball doesnt even apply here, Sasori didnt have pity on anyone, Chiyo and Sakura matched his power extremely well! He froze because he wanted to be hugged by those puppets again, and once it was over he awarded their strength and told Sakura about his meeting with Kabuto. Yeah Sasoris emotions got the best of him, but no one else except Chiyo and Sakura could have had such an impact on him. His Grandmother and Tsunades student, they were the perfect opponents for Sasori.
it was still a boring fight and ended very corny IMO, pain kills the entire village and the hero is still willing to forgive him? this was the perfect time for naruto to have to kill a enemy without losing himself and he still did not. and people wonder why sasuke has such a crazy fan base lol
Youre talking about a sport thats played for "money", this is a fight to the death. But that situation in basketball doesnt even apply here, Sasori didnt have pity on anyone, Chiyo and Sakura matched his power extremely well! He froze because he wanted to be hugged by those puppets again, and once it was over he awarded their strength and told Sakura about his meeting with Kabuto. Yeah Sasoris emotions got the best of him, but no one else except Chiyo and Sakura could have had such an impact on him. His Grandmother and Tsunades student, they were the perfect opponents for Sasori.
It's hypothetical. Please understand. I'm not saying pity is the ONLY factor here. But overall it's these emotions (pity in the case of the theoretical basketball players, wanting to be with his parents again in the case of Sasori) that make it so that the true strength of the enemy is not represented. The fact of the matter is that Sasori COULD have dodged his parents, and so he COULD have defeated Sakura and Chiyo. For that reason ALONE you can safely say that he is more powerful than either of them. In that case, however, what made him lose? Plot no jutsu. He had to lose somehow. And Kishi found the most reasonable way to do so. He created the scenario in which he would want to be embraced by his parents once again. But no matter what, he HAD to lose, even if, leaving behind his emotional ties, he would have won.
Let me explain what a hypothetical battle situation is. It is where the two ninja (or whatever the set of ninja is), at their primes and by themselves, meet ALONE by chance, entirely randomly. Then, they fight, regardless of emotional ties. I mean, you can't say that Naruto would tie against Minato because "he would never fight his dad in the first place". So in a hypothetical situation, Sakura and Chiyo would have been walking at full strength (or what we know to be their full strengths, so Chiyo would still be older), not knowing that they would battle Sasori. For that reason, Sakura wouldn't have her antidotes. Sasori is walking by, and comes across them, and they start fighting. Emotional ties are forgotten as I explained above. With that fair scenario, in which on both sides the full power can be shown without restriction, Sasori wins. The fact that he lost in the battle in the manga was due to special circumstances brought about by how the story progressed. That is "plot no jutsu". Understand now?
So who here thinks that Naruto's victory over pain was a sham? Or that Naruto only won because God Mode was handicapped? Or that Naruto used "talk no jutsu" or "plot no jutsu" to get one over Pain? For all those who believe in any of these things I have a little message for you............
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And this here.....
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Let me even the odds a bit, Nagato recieved the Rinnegan from Madara and Naruto recieved the Kyuubi from Yondaime Hokage. The ultimate eyes against the ultimate chakra!
If Pain didnt use God Mode against Senjutsu, Naruto didnt use the Kyuubis chakra until Hinata got hurt, the odds were perfectly even. But the indivuals were not!
Let me first express how much I hate the phrase "plot/talk no jutsu" and the people who use it.....well not as much as I hate the phrase itself
If Naruto used talk jutsu to make Pain have a change of heart, then how did you forget about this?
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Ill tell you why, because this phenomenon, yes Im talking about "talk no jutsu" does not exist your usage of this phrase demeans the true essence of Naruto and frankly opens the door to a whole new world of shit for the manga, the fans and the forum.
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Pain is the only person in history to have almost broken Naruto's spirit. Naruto was losing hope in himself and gradually starting to believe in Nagato's way, because he could not let go of his hatred for Jiraiyas death, it is what he was fighting the 6 Paths with, before losing himself to the Kyuubi!
Nagato and Naruto were two people who had the strength and will to make a drastic impact on the world in their own ways. It had nothing to do with a prophecy from some old sage, not to say that it wasnt true. But it wasnt because of talk jutsu when Nagato realised how his life's decision was a mistake and how he had strayed from his true path. These are elements which are important to the story and the building blocks of Naruto as a manga, for those of you who dont see it that way........I am sorry to say, you should read or watch something else pleaseU_U
Nagato did not do a 180 flip because of a few words, Naruto told him he would not give up or stray from his path no matter what kind of "Pain" came his way, it was an indication on Nagatos life and how his Pain made him think of only destruction. But Naruto meant "I will be different", that no matter what happens "I wont change"! Nagato was thoroughly impressed by Naruto's performance before then and truly believed that just like his Rinnegan, Naruto possessed a power to change the world.
+rep for just the effort man. Though if it wasn't for the help of the intel from the Toads + Jiraiya it would have been a different story. I don't doubt that he would lose even if he didn't have the intel. But it would still be another feat that only naruto can accomplish as the manga is called "Naruto".
bro you've been here since the first page trying to get it through this guy n every other fan boys' heads what plot really is and how important it is to the story.. they aren't gonna get it because they don't want to. fan boys are called fan boys for a reason.. iv'e been trying to do the same thing here but they worship naruto too much.. notice how every single person with naruto in their pics +rep n agree??
if there's one certainty in life, its that fan boys will never use logic.. sasuke and naruto have the worst fan boys ever.. give you props for trying cuz i try every time these fan boys go too far with their stupidity but there's kinda no point here anymore.. no use trying explain when they have their favorite character's cum all over their eyes n ears.
and to everyone else here just fan boying... <^> (-___-) <^>
bro you've been here since the first page trying to get it through this guy n every other fan boys' heads what plot really is and how important it is to the story.. they aren't gonna get it because they don't want to. fan boys are called fan boys for a reason.. iv'e been trying to do the same thing here but they worship naruto too much.. notice how every single person with naruto in their pics +rep n agree??
if there's one certainty in life, its that fan boys will never use logic.. sasuke and naruto have the worst fan boys ever.. give you props for trying cuz i try every time these fan boys go too far with their stupidity but there's kinda no point here anymore.. no use trying explain when they have their favorite character's cum all over their eyes n ears.
and to everyone else here just fan boying... <^> (-___-) <^>
I know what you mean. I just think that with enough logic, people can realize how they are wrong. But it hurts to know that sometimes that isn't enough.
I know what you mean. I just think that with enough logic, people can realize how they are wrong. But it hurts to know that sometimes that isn't enough.
yeah i get you but these people think of these characters as god so unfortunately any type of logic just flies out the window :sy:
and nahh don't ever let them get you down like that.. try to remember that most of them are just kids who won't know wtf they are talking about for another couple more years and/or they just live in a fantasy world where their favorite character is most the most perfect thing to them... :|
so again, don't let these fan boys bum you out.. you were just named one of the top debaters on a new thread and i agree so just keep doing what you doing.
yeah i get you but these people think of these characters as god so unfortunately any type of logic just flies out the window :sy:
and nahh don't ever let them get you down like that.. try to remember that most of them are just kids who won't know wtf they are talking about for another couple more years and/or they just live in a fantasy world where their favorite character is most the most perfect thing to them... :|
so again, don't let these fan boys bum you out.. you were just named one of the top debaters on a new thread and i agree so just keep doing what you doing.
It's hypothetical. Please understand. I'm not saying pity is the ONLY factor here. But overall it's these emotions (pity in the case of the theoretical basketball players, wanting to be with his parents again in the case of Sasori) that make it so that the true strength of the enemy is not represented. The fact of the matter is that Sasori COULD have dodged his parents, and so he COULD have defeated Sakura and Chiyo. For that reason ALONE you can safely say that he is more powerful than either of them. In that case, however, what made him lose? Plot no jutsu. He had to lose somehow. And Kishi found the most reasonable way to do so. He created the scenario in which he would want to be embraced by his parents once again. But no matter what, he HAD to lose, even if, leaving behind his emotional ties, he would have won.
Let me explain what a hypothetical battle situation is. It is where the two ninja (or whatever the set of ninja is), at their primes and by themselves, meet ALONE by chance, entirely randomly. Then, they fight, regardless of emotional ties. I mean, you can't say that Naruto would tie against Minato because "he would never fight his dad in the first place". So in a hypothetical situation, Sakura and Chiyo would have been walking at full strength (or what we know to be their full strengths, so Chiyo would still be older), not knowing that they would battle Sasori. For that reason, Sakura wouldn't have her antidotes. Sasori is walking by, and comes across them, and they start fighting. Emotional ties are forgotten as I explained above. With that fair scenario, in which on both sides the full power can be shown without restriction, Sasori wins. The fact that he lost in the battle in the manga was due to special circumstances brought about by how the story progressed. That is "plot no jutsu". Understand now?
Unlike your idea of reasoning where plot exists as a reason for the antagonist to lose, I had a reason when I said Chiyo was one of the two perfect opponents for Sasori. The puppets of his parents were used against him, whether to fight, have a psychological effect or both, is irrelevant. It matters not if Chiyo was trying to make those puppets work on Sasori subliminally. The point is that it worked and the outcome is the only important thing.
There is a reason things happen in Naruto and it damn sure aint as simple as a frikkin word! Plot explains how things happen not why?
Just admit that you are using it as an excuse for your displeasure with the way things turned out in Naruto. Your right a hypothetical battle may be different, but hypothetics dont get a say in the story and a good one at that.
Unlike your idea of reasoning where plot exists as a reason for the antagonist to lose, I had a reason when I said Chiyo was one of the two perfect opponents for Sasori. The puppets of his parents were used against him, whether to fight, have a psychological effect or both, is irrelevant. It matters not if Chiyo was trying to make those puppets work on Sasori subliminally. The point is that it worked and the outcome is the only important thing.
There is a reason things happen in Naruto and it damn sure aint as simple as a frikkin word! Plot explains how things happen not why?
Just admit that you are using it as an excuse for your displeasure with the way things turned out in Naruto. Your right a hypothetical battle may be different, but hypothetics dont get a say in the story and a good one at that.
Don't you get that the ONLY place the term plot no jutsu should be used in is IN HYPOTHETICAL BATTLES. In the story, I fully agree with Naruto winning. I understand why Sasori lost. But in a FAIR HYPOTHETICAL BATTLE, WHICH'S SOLE PURPOSE IS TO JUDGE THE TRUE BATTLE STRENGTH OF THE CHARACTERS INVOLVED, THESE THINGS ARE NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, AND ARE SET ASIDE AS "PLOT NO JUTSU". I am not unhappy with the results in the manga. I do not disagree. But if the FULL battle strength of each characters in each battle was used, with no emotional ties, prior ailments or aid from others, then the battle would have ended differently.
As you said, a hypothetical battle would turn out differently. That is the reason why the stuff that ACTUALLY happened has to be left behind, because there were particular circumstances that aided one or the other party. Hypothetical battles are made to eliminate all of these. Please tell me you understanddddd....understand that in a hypothetical battle between Naruto and the 6 paths of pein, with no emotional ties involved and without the handicaps on both sides that were seen in the battle, the battle would have gone and maybe ended differently.
As you said, a hypothetical battle would turn out differently. That is the reason why the stuff that ACTUALLY happened has to be left behind, because there were particular circumstances that aided one or the other party. Hypothetical battles are made to eliminate all of these. Please tell me you understanddddd....understand that in a hypothetical battle between Naruto and the 6 paths of pein, with no emotional ties involved and without the handicaps on both sides that were seen in the battle, the battle would have gone and maybe ended differently.
Not really, since we're eliminating all emotions here, Naruto shouldnt have any doubts fighting at full strength i.e. Sage mode along with Kyuubi mode, not what he has currently, but his 6 tailed form against Pain. The Kyuubi is a gift given to him by his father, it was all part of Yondaime's plan. Once he met Tobi...Yondaime knew that the good side would need someone to hold the ground for them. The Kyuubi has been entrusted to Naruto, it is a part of his power and Pain couldnt handle it!
Don't you get that the ONLY place the term plot no jutsu should be used in is IN HYPOTHETICAL BATTLES. In the story, I fully agree with Naruto winning. I understand why Sasori lost. But in a FAIR HYPOTHETICAL BATTLE, WHICH'S SOLE PURPOSE IS TO JUDGE THE TRUE BATTLE STRENGTH OF THE CHARACTERS INVOLVED, THESE THINGS ARE NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, AND ARE SET ASIDE AS "PLOT NO JUTSU". I am not unhappy with the results in the manga. I do not disagree. But if the FULL battle strength of each characters in each battle was used, with no emotional ties, prior ailments or aid from others, then the battle would have ended differently.
You can speculate and judge all you want, but there will always be certain anonymous elements unique to a fight in the Naruto world that only Kishi knows about.
I noticed that you only pick and choose what you show us about talk no jutsu. You only showed us the end page of when Nagato said that he would believe in Naruto but you should show us the whole chapter of his explanation and about pervy sage and all that goodness. How can someone believe in another person without talking to them? I'm sorry but the battle only ended because of talk no jutsu(it wasn't one-sided but it still was talk no jutsu none the less).
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