[Discussion] who the strongest of the supernovas

[Punk Hazard]

She also says that she's "sure his corpse is probably rotting off somewhere around here"... literally says that she's "sure".. yet she couldn't be more wrong.. just like you.. you're wrong as fk and the fact that you hate it when you're proven wrong, is the reason why this thread is 6 pages. Give it up bro. The manga proved how unreliable Brulee's word is.. it also proves that when characters speak on another character being beaten they don't go into detail with every or any other character that helped in their defeat.

Just because she doesn't know what became of Urouge after he was defeated by Cracker doesn't mean she didn't see what happened. She said right before that that Urouge was escorted from the woods after his defeat, hence why she'd know what happened in the woods(his defeat) but not what happened after he was escorted out of it(he survived).

Brulee's word has yet to be proven unreliable in this thread.

Until you have a scan that literally says Urouge fought Snack by himself

Already provided the scan.

 

[LBeezy]

Just because she doesn't know what became of Urouge after he was defeated by Cracker doesn't mean she didn't see what happened.

But she literally said she was "sure" of it. :sdo:

She said right before that that Urouge was escorted from the woods after his defeat, hence why she'd know what happened in the woods(his defeat) but not what happened after he was escorted out of it(he survived).

It NEVER says that she was present for the Urouge and Snack fight in the manga.. try again.

Brulee's word has yet to be proven unreliable in this thread.

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She has been proven wrong countless times based off of the manga scan I originally posted, the same one we've been using to discuss back and forth with.. Oda wrote her to be mistaken.. Brulee's word is extremely unreliable. And according to Cracker, Luffy brought down Doflamingo by himself.. Cracker > Brulee.. Brulee says Urouge took down Snack.. Cracker says Luffy brought down Doflamingo..

Idk how else to spell it out for you..

NOWHERE in the manga does it say Urouge defeated Snack by himself, alone. It does, however, say the SAME EXACT THING about Urouge vs Snack as Luffy vs Doflamingo.

Get that through your brain bro.

It's over.

Ya done.

 

[Punk Hazard]

But she literally said she was "sure" of it. :sdo:

This doesn't disprove what I said at all. Urouge was defeated in the woods, Brulee monitors and acts as a main offense in the woods, she doesn't know what happened outside of the woods.

The argument here is about whether or not Brulee was there when Urouge was defeated. Anything that happened after Urouge was escorted out of the woods is irrelevant.

It NEVER says that she was present for the Urouge and Snack fight in the manga.. try again.

Urouge, Snack, and Cracker clashed in the Seducing Woods, the place Brulee lives in and monitors and acts as the main offense in. And despite all this, you think it's more likely she wasn't there, despite giving a firsthand account of what happened. Clown.

She has been proven wrong countless times based off of the manga scan I originally posted, the same one we've been using to discuss back and forth with.. Oda wrote her to be mistaken.. Brulee's word is extremely unreliable.

The only thing she was wrong about was Urouge being dead, and that's not even relevant to the discussion since what ultimately happened to Urouge happened somewhere else than where he was defeated.

And according to Cracker, Luffy brought down Doflamingo by himself.. Cracker > Brulee.. Brulee says Urouge took down Snack.. Cracker says Luffy brought down Doflamingo..

Except Cracker is talking about something that happened in another country, and Brulee is talking about something that happened in the Seducing Woods, where she lives and fights. Notice how when a commander engaged Luffy in the Seducing Woods, she was there to see it, yet you think she decided NOT to do her job by NOT fighting in the area of her jurisdiction when Urouge invaded.

NOWHERE in the manga does it say Urouge defeated Snack by himself, alone. .

"Urouge defeated Snack"-the manga. Nowhere in the manga does it say that Urouge had help. You can debate it all you want like a fool, but at the end of the day, what you're saying was never stated in the manga while what I'm saying was.

It does, however, say the SAME EXACT THING about Urouge vs Snack as Luffy vs Doflamingo

You know what else it says the exact same thing about? Roger and Garp. Roger and Whitebeard. I wonder if you're gonna start going around saying "Roger and Garp weren't 1 vs 1 because Luffy vs Doflamingo" too.

 

[LBeezy]

This doesn't disprove what I said at all. Urouge was defeated in the woods, Brulee monitors and acts as a main offense in the woods, she doesn't know what happened outside of the woods.

The argument here is about whether or not Brulee was there when Urouge was defeated. Anything that happened after Urouge was escorted out of the woods is irrelevant.


Urouge, Snack, and Cracker clashed in the Seducing Woods, the place Brulee lives in and monitors and acts as the main offense in. And despite all this, you think it's more likely she wasn't there, despite giving a firsthand account of what happened. Clown.



The only thing she was wrong about was Urouge being dead, and that's not even relevant to the discussion since what ultimately happened to Urouge happened somewhere else than where he was defeated.


Except Cracker is talking about something that happened in another country, and Brulee is talking about something that happened in the Seducing Woods, where she lives and fights. Notice how when a commander engaged Luffy in the Seducing Woods, she was there to see it, yet you think she decided NOT to do her job by NOT fighting in the area of her jurisdiction when Urouge invaded.



"Urouge defeated Snack"-the manga. Nowhere in the manga does it say that Urouge had help. You can debate it all you want like a fool, but at the end of the day, what you're saying was never stated in the manga while what I'm saying was.

You know what else it says the exact same thing about? Roger and Garp. Roger and Whitebeard. I wonder if you're gonna start going around saying "Roger and Garp weren't 1 vs 1 because Luffy vs Doflamingo" too.

So Big Mom and her crew (despite this scan below)

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can know all about Sanji and Zeff's relationship all the way back from East Blue, but they don't have enough information about what took place in Dressrosa (which is right there in the New World, not to mention it being all in the news as well) to make a proper statement on Doflamingo's defeat??.... okay.. yeah.. seems legit...


lol wow bro.. just give it up.

You're delusional at this point.

 

[Punk Hazard]

So Big Mom and her crew (despite this scan below)

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can know all about Sanji and Zeff's relationship all the way back from East Blue, but they don't have enough information about what took place in Dressrosa (which is right there in the New World, not to mention it being all in the news as well) to make a proper statement on Doflamingo's defeat??.... okay.. yeah.. seems legit...


lol wow bro.. just give it up.

You're delusional at this point.

Except the Vinsmokes' and Big Mom's knowledge began and end at Sanji and Zeff had a relationship. The scan literally says "You took up residence at this restaurant." Niji also cracks a joke when he sees Sanji freeze up completely when Zeff is threatened saying he had no idea they were that close. Even Doflamingo, THE most influential man of the Underworld with the most connections there only found out about Crocodile's defeat through newspaper reports.

There's also the fact that the Baratie is a famous restaurant, Sanji was known for working on the ship, and Zeff has Sanji's face carved into the Baratie itself for everyone to see, so it's not at all hard for Big Mom to have discovered that Sanji was a worker on the Baratie. ESPECIALLY since when Sanji got his bounty, Zeff ran around telling all the customers about it, loudly announcing that Black-Leg Sanji was the Baratie's own and running a special promotion because of him.

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Reiju even mentions that they sent out a search party to find Sanji when his poster was revealed, the EXACT same time that Zeff was parading around his wanted poster at the Baratie.

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[LBeezy]

Except the Vinsmokes' and Big Mom's knowledge began and end at Sanji and Zeff had a relationship. The scan literally says "You took up residence at this restaurant." Niji also cracks a joke when he sees Sanji freeze up completely when Zeff is threatened saying he had no idea they were that close. Even Doflamingo, THE most influential man of the Underworld with the most connections there only found out about Crocodile's defeat through newspaper reports.

There's also the fact that the Baratie is a famous restaurant, Sanji was known for working on the ship, and Zeff has Sanji's face carved into the Baratie itself for everyone to see, so it's not at all hard for Big Mom to have discovered that Sanji was a worker on the Baratie. ESPECIALLY since when Sanji got his bounty, Zeff ran around telling all the customers about it, loudly announcing that Black-Leg Sanji was the Baratie's own and running a special promotion because of him.

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Reiju even mentions that they sent out a search party to find Sanji when his poster was revealed, the EXACT same time that Zeff was parading around his wanted poster at the Baratie.

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Those are all very nice scans.. but you still didn't answer my question...

All of the information you've shown above, still doesn't come close to how easy it would be for Big Mom to find out about what happened in Dressrosa with Doflamingo.. it's right there in the New World as opposed to being all the way in East Blue.. and not to mention it was "Big News".. and it was very recent..

If Big Mom and her crew can know all about Sanji and Zeff's relationship, why can't they know enough infomation about what happened in Dressrosa, to make a proper statement on Doflamingo's defeat?


Her "connections run very far.. and very deep..".... yet they think Luffy brought down Doflamingo by himself..? 1v1....?....... riiiiight..

 

[arv993]

Except Doflamingo activated Haki on the side of his face that Luffy's kick was aiming at. Even though he didn't physically move, him activating Haki on the exact spot Luffy was about to him=him reacting to the attack. If he didn't know the attack was coming, he wouldn't have activated Haki.

Also, base Doffy? What the **** is "base" Doffy? Secondly, Doflamingo physically moved to block Luffy multiple times, blitzed him, and dodged his attacks. None of those are possible if Doflamingo wasn't able to keep up with Luffy physically or react to him.


Doesn't even matter. Those gaps still exist, and as shown with Doflamingo, they leave an opening for a person to react in. Cases in point, Doflamingo moving his arms to block, or activating Haki on his face as an attempt to block the blow. The advantage Law has is is that he can teleport instead of attempting to block. And he's shown fighting Doflamingo, he has reactions and physical speed on par with his own.


And what relevance is the "heal injuries" part again? This debate started because that clown Variah said Luffy can't restore stamina from eating. I never said eating heals his injuries, but it's a canon manga FACT that Luffy's stamina is restored by eating and Gear Fourth works by burning calories.



And this brings me back to the plot-induced stupidity argument. Saying "If Law could do it, it'd have changed the outcome of the fight" isn't a valid argument because there's a lot of things Law COULD do that he didn't for the sake of plot. Example, AGAIN, is him not teleporting Doflamingo into the water. Are you going to say he couldn't do that because he didn't? Of course not. The same thing applies here. Without plot holding him back, the ability to teleport within a range equivalent to a mountain is a serious advantage, especially against an opponent as careless and reckless as Luffy.

And Luffy isn't faster than Doflamingo. Can't dodge, blitz, and physically react to someone who's that much faster than you the way Doflamingo did to Luffy.



This is a nice little dose of hypocrisy. Luffy shows himself to attack linearly? "Nah, he can go from different angles, even though he doesn't fight like that." And yet when usages of Law's teleporting is brought up, they're invalid because he never did it in the manga. Stay classy, I'm done with this clown show of a discussion. Have fun honking at each other.

all that means is thats all he could do brace for impact, that is not a great feat for doffy. Luffy did out match him in speed that is the exact definition of it. And the attacks luffy took intially from doffy was ones that couldnt even faze him.

So why didnt he blitz others, why was he getting shat on, you act like the guy is invincble he is woefully bad against faster characters with superior speed feats and firepower. Obviously he can improve but we have to go based on current feats. Those arent gaps, that is a bs term you're throwing out there, all the mechanics in luffy's normal attacks are extremely fast that all doffy could do in some instances were brace for impact. if all law could do was the same as doffy in that situation he is screwed and he isnt above doffy in reaction speed or anything, every opportunity law got on doffy was due to doffy not taking him seriously and he didnt need to since he mid diffed law at worst.

YOu made it sound instantaneous which it isnt that was the point i was making. it still requires him time to gain the stamina back, he couldnt go G4 over and over again, this is probably due to the insane amount of energy G4 takes so he would need to overeat and stall b4 being able to use it again.

LUFFY kept up with a whole town of strings coming at him from every direction, his speed and his reaction speed is impeccable better than law's by quite a margin.

luffy is faster than doffy by a decent margin, he isnt leagues above him but he is faster that is just plain facts. Law cant do what you expect him to otherwise oda would have made him look better against doffy. You act like law can solo everyone and his teleportation skills are on auto, no it depends on his reaction speed and his injuries and his stamina. If he is what you say he is oda would have shown him in a better light. Stop sounding like a kid who is disappointed in his fav character not being strong enough thats your argument he couldve done xyz in his battle against doffy, no he got shat on and those are facts he was outclassed at almost every turn by a faster opponent. If doffy went serious like use his awakening like he did against luffy that would be the end of him law.

how is that hyopocrisy. he literally came at doffy sideways you stay denying mangfacts like a fanboy and call others clowns.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Those are all very nice scans.. but you still didn't answer my question...

All of the information you've shown above, still doesn't come close to how easy it would be for Big Mom to find out about what happened in Dressrosa with Doflamingo.. it's right there in the New World as opposed to being all the way in East Blue.. and not to mention it was "Big News".. and it was very recent..

Your question doesn't make sense though. Why would Big Mom go digging into the specifics of Doffy's defeat as opposed to the report? She would have no reason to take that initiative. Even if she did, it'd be impossible for her to know Law's contributions since the only people that witnessed GK were Doffy, Trebol, Luffy, and Law. Big Mom touting Luffy as the person who defeated Doflamingo is because she got her information from the newspaper. Doflamingo has the deepest connections of any character shown so far, and he only found out about Crocodile's defeat through the newspaper. Bear in mind that Crocodile was a prominent client in the Underworld.

If Big Mom and her crew can know all about Sanji and Zeff's relationship, why can't they know enough infomation about what happened in Dressrosa, to make a proper statement on Doflamingo's defeat?

Why would they go looking for it? Not only that, but they didn't know "all about" their relationship, they just knew that Sanji lived on the Baratie and Zeff is in charge of it.

 

[LBeezy]

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Page 2.

 

[Uzumaki sensei]

Yes Caribou defeated him and tried to start a revolt and the next thing we saw Drake single handedly crushed that rebellion.
This shows if u try to cause problems in a Yonko territory u will face wrath of strong guys. This was also one of my point when I said pre TS Drake beating that guy means some strong guys went after him but he successfully joined the crew is proof enough that Kaido liked him(maybe because he is also a zoan df user).

but it wasnt drake who stoppped the revolt it was guy he beat cant rember his name tho

 

[Skull Knight]

but it wasnt drake who stoppped the revolt it was guy he beat cant rember his name tho

Scotch stopped the first attempt of revelutionaries who tried to destroy that factory(or whatever it was) and he was successful, later Caribou's crew came and they defeated Scotch and destroyed the factory.
Same evening Drake single handedly crushed the rebellion and ended the may hem.
Now Just see what happened with other supernovas who were trespassing Yonko territory. Yonko send their commanders to beat the shit out of them.
And as LC said pre TS Drake had the balls to enter Kaido's territory and still managed to join his crew. This says a lot about him.
Let's also not forget that their may be a dark secret revolving around Drake as why he left Marines and what Law wants to say when he said "How many men he killed"? back at Sabody Arch.... Arc.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Scotch stopped the first attempt of revelutionaries who tried to destroy that factory(or whatever it was) and he was successful, later Caribou's crew came and they defeated Scotch and destroyed the factory.
Same evening Drake single handedly crushed the rebellion and ended the may hem.
Now Just see what happened with other supernovas who were trespassing Yonko territory. Yonko send their commanders to beat the shit out of them.
And as LC said pre TS Drake had the balls to enter Kaido's territory and still managed to join his crew. This says a lot about him.
Let's also not forget that their may be a dark secret revolving around Drake as why he left Marines and what Law wants to say when he said "How many men he killed"? back at Sabody Arch.... Arc.

Drake was the strongest pre skip because he was the most experienced at the time but I doubt his growth rate is in a comparable league as say Luffy or Law or Zoro.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Drake was the strongest pre skip because he was the most experienced at the time but I doubt his growth rate is in a comparable league as say Luffy or Law or Zoro.

Based on what

 

[OG sama]

Drake was the strongest pre skip because he was the most experienced at the time but I doubt his growth rate is in a comparable league as say Luffy or Law or Zoro.

Personally I think X Drake and Urouge just had the best damage output out of any SN pre skip. The Pacifista seemed really slow, I just cant see Urouge big bulky form being very useful against agile and fast fighters like Luffy and Law. X Drake also isn't going to just bite on Luffy or Laws body like he was able to do that Pacifista.

 

[Skull Knight]

Drake was the strongest pre skip because he was the most experienced at the time but I doubt his growth rate is in a comparable league as say Luffy or Law or Zoro.

If we go by the card theory then he could be very well be the 4th strongest guy in Kaido's crew.
He could also be trained by Jack who shares similar Zoan df and we still don't know if ancient Zoan has some special powers or not.
Lastly he is very much like Law was back at PH arc hiding something. His reasons for leaving marine doesn't makes sense. He showed no emotion when Doffy was defeated, it seems like he is in some kind of under cover agent working to find Kaido's weak point.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Based on what

Which part?

Drake being strongest pre skip; That I'm basing off of Sabaody performances.

The most experienced at the time; The impression is they all started their pirate careers relatively close to each other in time and he had years of Marine training before hand. Plus he seems to be older so he should have more years and world experience.

His growth rate not being as high as other Nova; This is based on his relationship to the MC and MC's(and those close to them) generally having a greater rate of growth than other characters.

Personally I think X Drake and Urouge just had the best damage output out of any SN pre skip. The Pacifista seemed really slow, I just cant see Urouge big bulky form being very useful against agile and fast fighters like Luffy and Law. X Drake also isn't going to just bite on Luffy or Laws body like he was able to do that Pacifista.

Depends, agile and fast are good but only if they can still do cumulative damage enough to put down Urogue and sense his power converts damage to strength that seems easier said than done. The best opponent for Urogue is someone who fights with a trapping/restraining style.

If we go by the card theory then he could be very well be the 4th strongest guy in Kaido's crew.
He could also be trained by Jack who shares similar Zoan df and we still don't know if ancient Zoan has some special powers or not.
Lastly he is very much like Law was back at PH arc hiding something. His reasons for leaving marine doesn't makes sense. He showed no emotion when Doffy was defeated, it seems like he is in some kind of under cover agent working to find Kaido's weak point.

Could be but I don't think the growth he'd get from that would be significant in comparison to how quickly Luffy grows.

 

[-Akuma-]

Yeah because that's the only part of your post I was replying to. What part of your post would you have liked me to address?



We have NO proof of anything other than Urogue is credited as beating snack anything else about that fight is speculation on either end. Brulee's statement isn't proof and it never mentioned anything about one on one or single handily, what she said was we've had others come in here and Urogue managed to take out one of our Sweet Commanders in the process the on his own or with help is something you and I are filling in because no information was given to how it happened. What we do have is proof that the manga has had characters give full credit to a single individual in the past when the reader knows the fight didn't happen that way. That's precedent to assume the same happened with Urogue.

The part where I point out the one glaring difference between Law & Luffy vs Mingo opposed to Urouge vs Snack.

Exactly just like how G4 Luffy was capable of one shotting Cracker much earlier into their battle if the opportunity presented its self. But neither was going to make it easier on each other to do so, which is my point that there's not a big difference in power between them.



Agreed

Realize how both Cracker and Snack took Ls and weren't seen again. Something strange happened for sure.

I see what your saying but Snack was just known as some SC other than that he has no other info. It's highly unlikely to me given everything I explained to you, that he's stronger than Cracker.

One, Luffy couldn't just one shot Cracker and the point is that he wouldn't get the chance. Cracker was beaten because his own soldiers were used against him. If Luffy can't even bring up an opportunity to hurt Cracker by himself that proves my point......There is indeed a noticeable difference between Luffy and Cracker.

 

[-Akuma-]

Exactly just like how G4 Luffy was capable of one shotting Cracker much earlier into their battle if the opportunity presented its self. But neither was going to make it easier on each other to do so, which is my point that there's not a big difference in power between them.



Agreed

Realize how both Cracker and Snack took Ls and weren't seen again. Something strange happened for sure.

I see what your saying but Snack was just known as some SC other than that he has no other info. It's highly unlikely to me given everything I explained to you, that he's stronger than Cracker.

One, Luffy couldn't just one shot Cracker and the point is that he wouldn't get the chance. Cracker was beaten because his own soldiers were used against him. If Luffy can't even bring up an opportunity to hurt Cracker by himself that proves my point......There is indeed a noticeable difference between Luffy and Cracker.

 

[OG sama]

One, Luffy couldn't just one shot Cracker and the point is that he wouldn't get the chance. Cracker was beaten because his own soldiers were used against him. If Luffy can't even bring up an opportunity to hurt Cracker by himself that proves my point......There is indeed a noticeable difference between Luffy and Cracker.

Yeah and the noticeable difference is stamina, Cracker can fight for 11+ hours while Luffy can only maintain G4 for like 20 minutes. You think if G4 could go on for 11+ hrs he wouldn't have beat Cracker on his own? Theres a reason why Oda put that dumb ass time limit on it. Yeah as it stands right now, yeah Luffy can't beat Cracker but that doesn't mean he wouldn't beat Snack.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Yeah and the noticeable difference is stamina, Cracker can fight for 11+ hours while Luffy can only maintain G4 for like 20 minutes. You think if G4 could go on for 11+ hrs he wouldn't have beat Cracker on his own? Theres a reason why Oda put that dumb ass time limit on it. Yeah as it stands right now, yeah Luffy can't beat Cracker but that doesn't mean he wouldn't beat Snack.

Cracker edges out Luffy in stamina though. Luffy needed to eat Cracker's biscuits to sustain himself for 11 hours while Cracker went the same amount of time using his own stamina sooo