[Discussion] who the strongest of the supernovas

OG sama

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The part of you post where you said "Snack~Ace, but people say Luffy is above Ace and below Snack!" highlights the flaw of your argument. Yes, they're on the same general level, but that doesn't mean they're close or that Ace can beat Snack. Snack can very well be on the same general level as Ace, and be stronger than Luffy while Luffy is stronger than Ace.

Your attempt to say create these equivalency links fail to prove the point you're trying to make.
Its meant to show that all these guys are close with the numbers though, they all are close and you still haven't proven to me how they aren't and I never even ranked Luffy.

You have still yet to prove the flaw in this list because I never said they were all dead equal, I made this list with the opinion that these would be high-Extreme diff fights either way.
 

OG sama

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Yeah, except that while pieces of the shields were falling off, they were doing that for the entirety of the Gum Gum Organ, and never fully broke. You don't know that those shields were going to completely break.



Cracker isn't scared of pain, he dislikes it. Secondly, you have no idea that he didn't harm Luffy further during those 11 hours.
Lol what is this shit? We dont know if they were going to fully break? They were breaking in the ****ing panels, like what are you even arguing? If Cracker didn't jump in front of them they would have completely broke. Quit playing dumb with this stupid ass argument.

Quit with this devil advocate shit, whether he's scared or not doesn't change the fact that he hides behind a shit ton of clones because he tries to avoid pain. And where's your ****ing proof that he did harm Luffy in those 11 hours? I'll wait.
 

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Lol what is this shit? We dont know if they were going to fully break? They were breaking in the ****ing panels, like what are you even arguing? If Cracker didn't jump in front of them they would have completely broke. Quit playing dumb with this stupid ass argument.
Actually, looking at the pages, the biscuit shields withstood multiple blows until they started cracking, and Luffy never smashed through any of them fully despite barraging the shields with a shower of blows. Given that their shields withstood multiple blows of the barrage, it's likely they would have as well.

Quit with this devil advocate shit, whether he's scared or not doesn't change the fact that he hides behind a shit ton of clones because he tries to avoid pain. And where's your ****ing proof that he did harm Luffy in those 11 hours? I'll wait.
First off, stop staying he "hides behind clones" like it's illegitimate or something. The clones are a part of his power. If you can't get past them, then you're weaker than Cracker.

Secondly, I never said Cracker did hurt Luffy during those 11 hours. However, I'm not the one trying to make a claim based on whether or not Cracker did or didn't hurt Luffy. If "Cracker didn't hurt Luffy" is a basis of your argument, then you're gonna need proof to back that up.
 

OG sama

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Actually, looking at the pages, the biscuit shields withstood multiple blows until they started cracking, and Luffy never smashed through any of them fully despite barraging the shields with a shower of blows. Given that their shields withstood multiple blows of the barrage, it's likely they would have as well.



First off, stop staying he "hides behind clones" like it's illegitimate or something. The clones are a part of his power. If you can't get past them, then you're weaker than Cracker.

Secondly, I never said Cracker did hurt Luffy during those 11 hours. However, I'm not the one trying to make a claim based on whether or not Cracker did or didn't hurt Luffy. If "Cracker didn't hurt Luffy" is a basis of your argument, then you're gonna need proof to back that up.
I went back and looked as well and your right, on one panel a shield was instantly crumbling and then one panel below one tanked a single blow, so awesome right? But it still doesn't disprove anything because we all know the clones can take at least one blow from G4 because we witnessed it at the beginning of the battle when that biscuit clone got 2 shot. If Cracker didn't jump in front of them they would have been destroyed, not instantly, but surely that's the point.

Its not a basis for my argument the manga says he was fighting, running, and eating. He simply ran away from the real Cracker while he was trying to regain stamina I guess, which is why neither was harmed.
 

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I went back and looked as well and your right, on one panel a shield was instantly crumbling and then one panel below one tanked a single blow, so awesome right? But it still doesn't disprove anything because we all know the clones can take at least one blow from G4 because we witnessed it at the beginning of the battle when that biscuit clone got 2 shot. If Cracker didn't jump in front of them they would have been destroyed, not instantly, but surely that's the point.
Except the Kong Organ isn't a single blow. It's a rain of continuous blows. Those clones were blocking MULTIPLE blows because the Kong Organ works like a Gatling.

Your argument that they would eventually break is dumb. Like, yeah, that would happen if someone is just throwing techniques an object for a while and nothing is happening to stop them.

Its not a basis for my argument the manga says he was fighting, running, and eating. He simply ran away from the real Cracker while he was trying to regain stamina I guess, which is why neither was harmed.
Except it is a basis for your argument.

You said Luffy didn't use Gear Fourth during those 11 hours, and I said he most definitely did because there's no way Luffy can handle Cracker and an army of biscuits without G4 when non-G4 Luffy was bullied by one soldier.

You said Nami wetted the biscuits during those 11 hours, so they couldn't hurt Luffy and that's why he survived the 11 hours without Gear Fourth.

I said the wetting argument doesn't work because Cracker is still there, and getting wet wouldn't stop him from attacking Luffy like it might the soldiers.

You then said that Cracker was there but, and I quote, "didn't do shit evidently," and then cited that he didn't hurt Luffy during those 11 hours as the evidence.

That's why you need proof that Cracker didn't hurt Luffy, because that's your evidence that Cracker didn't do anything, which is your evidence that Luffy didn't need Gear Fourth during those 11 hours. I can bring up the posts in sequence showing how this argument developed in case you try to claim that this didn't happen or that you're conveniently forgetting.

Evidence that Luffy had to have used Gear Fourth lies in the quote from Cracker that you just said: Luffy spent 11 hours eating, FIGHTING, and running. The fact that Cracker distinquished between "eating" and "fighting" means that Luffy's fighting consisted of more than just eating the biscuits, and there's no way he can clash with Cracker without Gear Fourth, which is ACTUALLY evidenced in the manga.

Your argument also insists that Nami wetting the biscuits made them so weak that Gear Fourth wasn't needed because they couldn't hurt Luffy. This makes no sense together with Cracker doing nothing because that means Cracker sat back and watched his biscuits become incapable of hurting Luffy and decided to do absolutely nothing about it for 11 HOURS. This makes absolutely no ****ing sense. Your argument falls apart on itself from every aspect.
 

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G4 Luffy already showed it had the firepower to bypass Crackers defenses as evidenced by the fact that he was plowing through the clones shields and as a result Cracker had to send them away and attack himself. His defenses aren't a problem for Luffy while he's in G4, its only a problem when he is out. It probably took him the whole 11 hours just to replenish his stamina in order to use the form again, which is why Nami's help was so crucial. You say Luffy beating Snack is baseless but Snack beating Luffy is baseless! You say Snack and Cracker should be on a similar level but Urouge and Luffy are both SN, who should also be on a similar level! So you either believe that Snack, Luffy, and Urouge are all on the same level or you believe Urouge is >>>Luffy which makes no sense. Or you believe that there is a big gap difference between Snack and Cracker.
If Luffy was 'plowing' through the clones shield he would have got to Cracker much easier nor would he have to resort to Nami's rain if he was truly plowing through's Cracker's clone the way you're implying. Heck the only thing he was plowing through was the clone's shields:



That's ****ing stupid, Sweet Commanders are given their rank because of their powers while Supernovas are not. All Supernovas are not on a similar level and their ranks do not support that. I believe that Urouge is stronger than Luffy and is more similar in power to Snack and Cracker.
 

OG sama

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Except the Kong Organ isn't a single blow. It's a rain of continuous blows. Those clones were blocking MULTIPLE blows because the Kong Organ works like a Gatling.

Your argument that they would eventually break is dumb. Like, yeah, that would happen if someone is just throwing techniques an object for a while and nothing is happening to stop them.



Except it is a basis for your argument.

You said Luffy didn't use Gear Fourth during those 11 hours, and I said he most definitely did because there's no way Luffy can handle Cracker and an army of biscuits without G4 when non-G4 Luffy was bullied by one soldier.

You said Nami wetted the biscuits during those 11 hours, so they couldn't hurt Luffy and that's why he survived the 11 hours without Gear Fourth.

I said the wetting argument doesn't work because Cracker is still there, and getting wet wouldn't stop him from attacking Luffy like it might the soldiers.

You then said that Cracker was there but, and I quote, "didn't do shit evidently," and then cited that he didn't hurt Luffy during those 11 hours as the evidence.

That's why you need proof that Cracker didn't hurt Luffy, because that's your evidence that Cracker didn't do anything, which is your evidence that Luffy didn't need Gear Fourth during those 11 hours. I can bring up the posts in sequence showing how this argument developed in case you try to claim that this didn't happen or that you're conveniently forgetting.

Evidence that Luffy had to have used Gear Fourth lies in the quote from Cracker that you just said: Luffy spent 11 hours eating, FIGHTING, and running. The fact that Cracker distinquished between "eating" and "fighting" means that Luffy's fighting consisted of more than just eating the biscuits, and there's no way he can clash with Cracker without Gear Fourth, which is ACTUALLY evidenced in the manga.

Your argument also insists that Nami wetting the biscuits made them so weak that Gear Fourth wasn't needed because they couldn't hurt Luffy. This makes no sense together with Cracker doing nothing because that means Cracker sat back and watched his biscuits become incapable of hurting Luffy and decided to do absolutely nothing about it for 11 HOURS. This makes absolutely no ****ing sense. Your argument falls apart on itself from every aspect.
Kong organ may not be a single blow but if you look at the panel it was the first blow that hit the shield, the attack was obviously slowed down so we could see how the attack worked.
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That's my point, you seem to think they tanked something when In actuality they were going to be destroyed eventually how do you not get that?

Who says Luffy fought the real Cracker? Whose to say he didn't just fight the wet clones the entire time and ran away from the real one ? And you keep insisting on Cracker doing something but yet if he really did anything why in the hell did he allow Nami to keep ****ing with his clones the entire time?
 

OG sama

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If Luffy was 'plowing' through the clones shield he would have got to Cracker much easier nor would he have to resort to Nami's rain if he was truly plowing through's Cracker's clone the way you're implying. Heck the only thing he was plowing through was the clone's shields:



That's ****ing stupid, Sweet Commanders are given their rank because of their powers while Supernovas are not. All Supernovas are not on a similar level and their ranks do not support that. I believe that Urouge is stronger than Luffy and is more similar in power to Snack and Cracker.
What the hell are you even arguing? He was about to destroy the shields and the real Cracker jumped out in front of them, you think Cracker would risk jumping out in front of Luffy if his clones were enough? He knew the clones weren't going to last so he tried to land a hit himself. And wtf are you talking about, Nami never even helped until G4 ran out.

All of the top SN aren't on a similar level based off what? Luffy isn't much stronger than Law, and they probably aren't much stronger or weaker than Kid, THEYRE RIVALS. They aren't going to be mid diffing each other or any dumb shit like that, Urouge being a lot stronger than Luffy makes zero ****ing sense. Sounds like you need to get Urouges **** out of your mouth.
 

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Kong organ may not be a single blow but if you look at the panel it was the first blow that hit the shield, the attack was obviously slowed down so we could see how the attack worked.
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What the **** are you saying? You're saying the biscuits are definitely gonna get broken because one got destroyed with two hits, but these biscuits are blocking off more than 2 hits with their shields when they face off against the Kong Organ. That's my point.

That's my point, you seem to think they tanked something when In actuality they were going to be destroyed eventually how do you not get that?
My point is that, in battle, this isn't really relevant. The biscuits still were effective as a shield.

Who says Luffy fought the real Cracker? Whose to say he didn't just fight the wet clones the entire time and ran away from the real one ? And you keep insisting on Cracker doing something but yet if he really did anything why in the hell did he allow Nami to keep ****ing with his clones the entire time?
Did you forget those panels earlier? Do I need to pull up the one biscuit soldier smacking Luffy around and sending him flying and treating him like a little boy? There's absolutely no way Luffy is running away from Cracker, who is stronger than his biscuit soldiers, without Gear Fourth when that's how he fairs against the soldier.

The only way Luffy didn't fight Cracker is if Cracker sat back and choose not to engage him, and that makes zero sense. You know why Cracker didn't stop Nami from wetting his biscuits? Because he was busy with Luffy while he was in Gear Fourth, you ****ing mook.
 

OG sama

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What the **** are you saying? You're saying the biscuits are definitely gonna get broken because one got destroyed with two hits, but these biscuits are blocking off more than 2 hits with their shields when they face off against the Kong Organ. That's my point.


My point is that, in battle, this isn't really relevant. The biscuits still were effective as a shield.



Did you forget those panels earlier? Do I need to pull up the one biscuit soldier smacking Luffy around and sending him flying and treating him like a little boy? There's absolutely no way Luffy is running away from Cracker, who is stronger than his biscuit soldiers, without Gear Fourth when that's how he fairs against the soldier.

The only way Luffy didn't fight Cracker is if Cracker sat back and choose not to engage him, and that makes zero sense. You know why Cracker didn't stop Nami from wetting his biscuits? Because he was busy with Luffy while he was in Gear Fourth, you ****ing mook.
They're blocking more than 2 hits where? Because the manga clearly showed the shields getting destroyed or in the act of getting destroyed pretty instantly, those shields weren't really lasting long.

You say he couldn't run away, but the manga clearly states that he did run away! He also wasn't running away from that soldier he was trying to fight him but he got his ass whipped, so that's not a good example.

He was busy chasing Luffy, who was fighting, RUNNING, eating and repeating, he could have just as easily fought the biscuit soldiers and ate them and ran away rom the real Cracker like I said. And even if he did use G4 in that timeframe what exactly is that suppose to prove? Both of them were unharmed in any way during that time period.
 

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They're blocking more than 2 hits where? Because the manga clearly showed the shields getting destroyed or in the act of getting destroyed pretty instantly, those shields weren't really lasting long.
The Kong Organ works like a Gatling, dawg. You think Luffy fired these first row of punches[ ] and then just remained stationary in the next page when the Soldiers are advancing, and remained in that same stationary position from the first row of punches when Cracker charged forward?[ ]. It's a rapid fire attack.

You say he couldn't run away, but the manga clearly states that he did run away! He also wasn't running away from that soldier he was trying to fight him but he got his ass whipped, so that's not a good example.
You know why he was able to run away? Because he was using Gear Fourth.

He was busy chasing Luffy, who was fighting, RUNNING, eating and repeating, he could have just as easily fought the biscuit soldiers and ate them and ran away rom the real Cracker like I said. And even if he did use G4 in that timeframe what exactly is that suppose to prove? Both of them were unharmed in any way during that time period.
Fighting and running IN GEAR FOURTH. When this is what happens when Luffy goes up against one biscuit soldier without Gear Fourth[ ], Luffy isn't running from the real thing without the transformation. Even resulted in Luffy being tossed onto his face. If Luffy tried to run without Gear Fourth, Cracker is catching and murdering that ass.
 

OG sama

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The Kong Organ works like a Gatling, dawg. You think Luffy fired these first row of punches[ ] and then just remained stationary in the next page when the Soldiers are advancing, and remained in that same stationary position from the first row of punches when Cracker charged forward?[ ]. It's a rapid fire attack.



You know why he was able to run away? Because he was using Gear Fourth.



Fighting and running IN GEAR FOURTH. When this is what happens when Luffy goes up against one biscuit soldier without Gear Fourth[ ], Luffy isn't running from the real thing without the transformation. Even resulted in Luffy being tossed onto his face. If Luffy tried to run without Gear Fourth, Cracker is catching and murdering that ass.
I know how the attack works, but after that first row the shields were crumbling and then Cracker intervened. Why are you even doubting that Luffy would have destroyed those clones for? If he wasn't capable, Cracker wouldn't have had to do anything but sit still. Is it that hard for you to give him even that much credit? The amount of hits don't matter, just know they were going down that's all im saying.

You say he needed G4 to run away but if that were true he would have almost surely died going by your logic, considering G4 doesn't last for ever. In fact, when we got back to the fight he was fat as hell and could barely move, Cracker was right in front of him and didn't do anything, why weren't his clones doing anything? What do you think he had to do when it ran out again? Who was there to help him? Nami that's who.
 

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1. Urouge ( )
2. Luffy ( )
3. Law ( )
4. Zoro ( )
5. Eustass
6. X Drake/Capone Bege (High Position in Yonko Crew)
7. Capone Bege/X Drake (High Position in Yonko Crew)
8. Basil Hawkins (Potentially Immortal)
9. Apoo
10. Bonney (Haxx DF)
11. Killer


Probably not the most accurate list, but based on manga this is what I got
 

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What the hell are you even arguing? He was about to destroy the shields and the real Cracker jumped out in front of them, you think Cracker would risk jumping out in front of Luffy if his clones were enough? He knew the clones weren't going to last so he tried to land a hit himself. And wtf are you talking about, Nami never even helped until G4 ran out.

All of the top SN aren't on a similar level based off what? Luffy isn't much stronger than Law, and they probably aren't much stronger or weaker than Kid, THEYRE RIVALS. They aren't going to be mid diffing each other or any dumb shit like that, Urouge being a lot stronger than Luffy makes zero ****ing sense. Sounds like you need to get Urouges **** out of your mouth.

Judging by the distance they were at I doubt the shield would have broken, but of course, you'd assume otherwise. Why would Cracker jump out himself? Maybe because Luffy was busy dealing with the clones themselves and all his efforts were on them instead of Cracker himself......... You're assuming Nami helped when G4 ran out because we never see G4 run out on panel.

Luffy is a NOTICEABLE amount stronger than Law. Heck, after seeing Capone the same thing applies with Luffy and Capone. You saying they're all on the same level is head canon, I don't have Urouge's **** in my mouth but Luffy's **** is lodged right up your ass. Next time actually make a decent argument.
 
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arv993

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Its unlikely that uruoge ever saw Cracker's true form, so the difference in strength between snack and cracker must be high. And we have seen that not all commanders are around the same strength.
 

OG sama

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Judging by the distance they were at I doubt the shield would have broken, but of course, you'd assume otherwise. Why would Cracker jump out himself? Maybe because Luffy was busy dealing with the clones themselves and all his efforts were on them instead of Cracker himself......... You're assuming Nami helped when G4 ran out because we never see G4 run out on panel.

Luffy is a NOTICEABLE amount stronger than Law. Heck, after seeing Capone the same thing applies with Luffy and Capone. You saying they're all on the same level is head canon, I don't have Urouge's **** in my mouth but Luffy's **** is lodged right up your ass. Next time actually make a decent argument.
Lol what does the distance have to do with anything, you can look at the panel and see the shields breaking, that's not assuming shit, that's fact its not debatable, if Luffy was allowed to keep punching those shields they would have crumbled that's fact. It just proves my point, he didn't need Namis help when he was in G4 as clearly shown on panel when she didn't help, just needed her help when it ran out.

Luffy isnt mid diffing Law though, your right about Capone he is a lower level SN. But the Top SN aren't far apart in power, what you seem to be trying to tell me is that Luffy is so much weaker than Cracker that even Snack and Urouge would beat him rather easily that's BS. With your garbage ass logic Luffy wouldn't even beat the commander weaker than Snack whoever that is.
 

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Lol what does the distance have to do with anything, you can look at the panel and see the shields breaking, that's not assuming shit, that's fact its not debatable, if Luffy was allowed to keep punching those shields they would have crumbled that's fact. It just proves my point, he didn't need Namis help when he was in G4 as clearly shown on panel when she didn't help, just needed her help when it ran out.

Luffy isnt mid diffing Law though, your right about Capone he is a lower level SN. But the Top SN aren't far apart in power, what you seem to be trying to tell me is that Luffy is so much weaker than Cracker that even Snack and Urouge would beat him rather easily that's BS. With your garbage ass logic Luffy wouldn't even beat the commander weaker than Snack whoever that is.
How is Capone a lower level SN when only one of them has the feats to suggest they can bypass his ultimate defense?
 
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