SM Jiraiya vs Itachi

[Draegod]

That's good, I was hoping you'd do that instead of waste more time on the irrelevant details. Let's try to keep it that way, shall we

What are you even talking about? Jiraiya's capable of using it on walls and ceilings as well, in fact he already did. Itachi jumps to avoid it(even though you've given no evidence to suggest he'd be fast enough to jump, despite being able to see Jiraiya make the handsign as it appears on the ground nigh instantly), if he tries to land on the wall the second he touches it he's trapped in another one. It's literally impossible for him to not get buried. If he jumps and tries to land on a wall it makes it even easier for Jiraiya to be able to land it, there's only 1 direction Itachi is capable of going from that point and it's down.

You seem to be under the impression that because someone has sharingan they're able to see in the future and automatically react to anything. Sorry, just seeing Jiraiya perform a handsign won't stop Itachi from being utterly annihilated as seen on

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. I made it a major point of my proof to ask you to provide some kind of evidence for Itachi's speed, not just "he sees it coming, therefore he's able to avoid it despite its instant esque nature." That's faulty logic, I'm waiting for some kind of support he's fast enough to do anything in response before it appears under him and sinks him 100m.

Do you even research the jutsu you're trying to counter? To quote the DB on the intention of the tech: "By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground..." and, "The giant snake captured in this bog is prevented from moving! But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient. The real goal of this technique is to completely submerge the target underground."

If you were trying to use that as support that Itachi would be able to burn the swamp while he's above it, then stand on it afterwards, that's one thing(which I have an entirely new set of problems with), and tell me if that's what you meant so I can list you my problems with that. But trying to say that while he's sunk he'll be able to somehow move whilst he's deep underground surounded by chakra infused mud leaving his body immobile, that's a very ridiculous line of logic. In fact, even when Jiraiya made a small one(expertly slipped in during a 3 way taijutsu fight against top tiers with superior eyes to sharingan might I add) to stop Human path, his

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were one of the parts that were completely submerged. Plus as we all know, Itachi is nowhere near one of the physically strongest characters in the series.

Once he lands in the swamp he's finished, end of story. I hope you wrote that part of your post wrong and didn't mean to suggest that Itachi would be able to escape from it through katon use once he's already submerged. If that is what you meant though then I urge you to reread the manga and get a better grasp on why Jiraiya is clearly superior here.
Last I checked, both characters start the fight at the exact same time lol, Itachi doesn't start the vs match with a 1 second headstart. He's not Mifune, he can't miraculously act when Yomi Numa can be activating by simply moving your hands into a position. Even I as a human being could probably do that before Itachi can do anything from 30 meters. Look, the problem with this post is it's completely baseless. You've given no evidence for Itachi's speed that he will be able to do anything more than lift a finger before he's sunk and drowned. All you've said is that Itachi may or may not be able to see Jiraiya perform a simple handsign, but then the swamp immediately appears, he still can't actually do anything about it until you've shown otherwise.

We've seen on many, many occasions a sharingan user unable to react to someone even though they're clearly in their line of sight as I already showed above. Otherwise no sharingan user would ever be hit with a jutsu in the series, it's not omniscience it's precognitive abilities and they're useless when your body isn't fast enough to act on it. I've shown you Yomi Numa's activation speed, as I said in my first post and now we need to see Itachi's.

Yeah, but then he boxes himself in even further and makes it even easier for Yomi Numa to land and submerge him no diff. Once you counter Itachi's ability to even react to Yomi Numa, then we'll be able to move on how he handles himself now that he finds himself in the nigh defenseless midair position. After that we can go on to the other jutsu in Jiraiya's massive, extremely versatile arsenal. But for now, you find yourself struggling on only one simple move.

The uchiha fans think Sharingan makes them able to react to anything apparently. When it is manga fact that isn't the case and even some of the best Shrinagn users have been bested and there sharingans couldn't do anything about it.

 

[Beans2]

The uchiha fans think Sharingan makes them able to react to anything apparently. When it is manga fact that isn't the case and even some of the best Shrinagn users have been bested and there sharingans couldn't do anything about it.

Well sharingan can read seals and determine elemental affinity of the technique about to be used by what seal the caster is using just how kakashi read kakuzu's seal for Domu and determined it was an earth affinity technique so he countered it with raikiri a lightning element technique. Sasuke also read deidara's seals and saw he used earth-based techniques as well which let him know he needed to counter with raiton. Itachi can read jiraiya's seal and determine he will use an earth tech then predict an attack from below and junp into the air to avoid it. However this problem can be bypassed altogether if shima simply uses her dust cloud allowing jiraiya to hide his seal. Dark swamp used as a standalone technique won't pose trouble for itachi but if used correctly in conjunction with other techs it will.

Edit: lol i forgot itachi has full intel so he knows the signs for yoni numa anyway. I forgot the stipulations in my own thread, how embarassing!

 

[LuckyMan]

Well sharingan can read seals and determine elemental affinity of the technique about to be used by what seal the caster is using just how kakashi read kakuzu's seal for Domu and determined it was an earth affinity technique so he countered it with raikiri a lightning element technique. Sasuke also read deidara's seals and saw he used earth-based techniques as well which let him know he needed to counter with raiton. Itachi can read jiraiya's seal and determine he will use an earth tech then predict an attack from below and junp into the air to avoid it. However this problem can be bypassed altogether if shima simply uses her dust cloud allowing jiraiya to hide his seal. Dark swamp used as a standalone technique won't pose trouble for itachi but if used correctly in conjunction with other techs it will.

Edit: lol i forgot itachi has full intel so he knows the signs for yoni numa anyway. I forgot the stipulations in my own thread, how embarassing!

Actually, Kakashi and Sasuke only deduced those natures because Doton is normally associated with the snake seal. Yumi Numa is a boar and tiger seal, the latter is associated with Katon so thats not a perk of the sharingan its really just general knowledge of hand seals and what elements they normally represent.

 

[Icelerate]

I'd actually love to see people debate SM Jiraiya vs Itachi...I'd read every single word and happily judge.

There was a SM Jiraiya VS Itachi debate between yours truly.

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I love how the Jiraiya fans like to say Itachi gets one shotted by Jiraiya through various means but then get butthurt when the Itachi supporters say that Itachi one shots Jiraiya.

 

[Beans2]

Actually, Kakashi and Sasuke only deduced those natures because Doton is normally associated with the snake seal. Yumi Numa is a boar and tiger seal, the latter is associated with Katon so thats not a perk of the sharingan its really just general knowledge of hand seals and what elements they normally represent.

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up

There was a SM Jiraiya VS Itachi debate between yours truly.

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I love how the Jiraiya fans like to say Itachi gets one shotted by Jiraiya through various means but then get butthurt when the Itachi supporters say that Itachi one shots Jiraiya.

In my defense my debating skills weren't as great back then and I realized Jiraiya can't win with only manga intel so I conceded rather than looking foolish trying to counter. Regardless it's obviously a high difficulty fight either way and obviously no one is getting one shotted.

 

[Icelerate]

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up



In my defense my debating skills weren't as great back then and I realized Jiraiya can't win with only manga intel so I conceded rather than looking foolish trying to counter. Regardless it's obviously a high difficulty fight either way and obviously no one is getting one shotted.

Scenario one is high difficulty for Itachi. Scenario two is high difficulty for Jiraiya.

 

[Beans2]

Scenario one is high difficulty for Itachi. Scenario two is high difficulty for Jiraiya.

What's your reasoning?

 

[Icelerate]

What's your reasoning?

If Jiraiya attacks Itachi headon, Yata mirror will deflect the attack back at Jiraiya so not only will Jiraiya have to dodge Itachi's attacks such as YMs, Totsuka blade, katons, etc. he'd also be wary of his own attacks being used against him. Not to mention Totsuka can extend itself, catching Jiraiya or his toads off guard with it's extended range.

On the other hand, without V4 susanoo, Totsuka and Yata, Itachi's V3 susanoo's offensive capabilities aren't enough to beat Jiraiya as long as he has full intel. Amaterasu can only be used with a ribcage or without susanoo or else it gets dispelled and Jiraiya can use Kibari senbon to finish Itachi off.

Having only up to V3 susanoo does mean that Itachi has access to more chakra but if Danzo was able to dodge susanoo's attacks, I don't see how SM Jiraiya would have a problem especially with Ma, Pa, clone feints and katon to blind Itachi's eyes.

 

[Blaze Release]

This is the problem, some of these jiraiya fantards have managed to convince themselves, perhaps a few others even that yomi numa is a GG technique which in reality its far from it. Yes it may have a 100% success rate, but those were agains't a large snake and human path. Not exactly an impressive list.

Ninja's especially high tiers have been facing far more difficult situations/ninjutsu, to believe the likes of itachi, mu, kakashi, etc are going to lose a battle agains't jiraiya by slowly drowning in a swamp. Sure, at best it may immobilize them, but completely drowning and a GG technique, who are you fooling?.

Certain if kishi was to create this particular fight, or any other fights where jiraiya is agains't a capable shinobi, the swamp wouldn't be given the same sort of GG status that some of these jiraiya fans are claiming.

What these fans are merely doing is taking advantage of its limited screen time and its relative success rate agains't low tiers. Certain if it was one of those techniques that has gained alot of screen time, amaterasu/susanoo, etc, and it came up agains't the big boys or high jonins even, we would have seen a lot of counters for it and wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination be a GG technique.

Anyway the DB makes it clear that while jiraiya can create a fairly big swamp, it depends on the size of the target or the number of targets. So in a realistic situation agains't a human he is going to create one just big enough for it to swallow a human, like he did agains't human realm.

Even if we say itachi cannot react and he falls in the mud. Susanoo strength is enough to pull him out of the mud and back onto a solid surface. Kinda have a hard time seeing, somebody of itachi's calibre who has told us that every technique has its weakness is going to die slowly by drowning in a swamp, highly unlikely.

Since there is no reasoning or logic in the manga that allows Itachi to counter Yomi Numa, base Jiraiya solos effortlessly, let alone SM Jiraiya who not even edo Itachi can beat.

Haha
Problem is there are valid counters though.
The Mirror
Susanoo pulling power
Levitate in Susanoo

I was joking. It was a troll post ever since some guy started using dumb logic to make us laugh in the VS section. I'm copying him.

Know you were.
Anyway its interesting how genin Sasuke managed to get himself out of this the Shinjū Zanshu with his whole body but his head trapped within the earth. How he managed such a feat when he surely couldn't have weaved seals in that situation is impressive.
Dat Sasuke.
Dat Uchiha blood

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[Icelerate]

Haha
Problem is there are valid counters though.
The Mirror
Susanoo pulling power
Levitate in Susanoo

I was joking. It was a troll post ever since some guy started using dumb logic to make us laugh in the VS section. I'm copying him.

 

[KidGamer65]

The uchiha fans think Sharingan makes them able to react to anything apparently. When it is manga fact that isn't the case and even some of the best Shrinagn users have been bested and there sharingans couldn't do anything about it.

This guy stay crying about "Uchiha Fans". .

What are you even talking about? Jiraiya's capable of using it on walls and ceilings as well, in fact he already did. Itachi jumps to avoid it(even though you've given no evidence to suggest he'd be fast enough to jump, despite being able to see Jiraiya make the handsign as it appears on the ground nigh instantly), if he tries to land on the wall the second he touches it he's trapped in another one. It's literally impossible for him to not get buried. If he jumps and tries to land on a wall it makes it even easier for Jiraiya to be able to land it, there's only 1 direction Itachi is capable of going from that point and it's down.

Yeah, he can use it on walls and ceilings, but he won't be aiming for the wall or the ceiling unless Itachi is on there. Itachi starts on the ground, so he is going to use it on the ground, then Itachi evades. Unless you can show me some magical sixth sense that he has, that'll let him know where Itachi is going to go before he even attempts to go there, Yomi Numa is easily evaded. If Jiraiya tries it again, Itachi evades again. Pain vs. Jiraiya is a large area. Pipes lead outdoors, there are buildings IIRC or at least something like them. There's also an area with water. (Where Jiraiya was killed) Can't use Yomi Numa on water, so if the battle gets there, this jutsu is effectively useless.

Doesn't matter if it appears nigh instantly, because he'll be off the ground before the jutsu is even used, as he'll know what jutsu Jiraiya is using before he even finishes the handsigns, as shown with Itachi can Kabuto.

You seem to be under the impression that because someone has sharingan they're able to see in the future and automatically react to anything.

Please don't be a strawman. I said he'll know what jutsu he's using before he can use it, and I've already provided proof that is how it works.

Sorry, just seeing Jiraiya perform a handsign won't stop Itachi from being utterly annihilated as seen on

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. I made it a major point of my proof to ask you to provide some kind of evidence for Itachi's speed, not just "he sees it coming, therefore he's able to avoid it despite its instant esque nature." That's faulty logic, I'm waiting for some kind of support he's fast enough to do anything in response before it appears under him and sinks him 100m.

Actually it will. Itachi read Kabuto's attempt to use Suiton, and ended up hitting him with it EVEN BEFORE KABUTO HAD CAST HIS OWN JUTSU. Same thing happens here. Can't hit him with Yomi Numa if Itachi isn't on the ground by the time it's used. You are asking me to prove he's fast enough to evade a nigh instant swamp, even though he doesn't need to be fast enough to evade the swamp as the swamp isn't what he's going to be reacting to, Jiraiya's hand signs are his signal to evade. So no, it's not faulty logic.

Also, really now? Your link isn't even a correct counter. Not only was Sasuke not looking at B (hence it being a surprise attack) what does that have to do with hand signs? Lol.

Do you even research the jutsu you're trying to counter? To quote the DB on the intention of the tech: "By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground..." and, "The giant snake captured in this bog is prevented from moving! But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient. The real goal of this technique is to completely submerge the target underground."

Obviously.

If you were trying to use that as support that Itachi would be able to burn the swamp while he's above it, then stand on it afterwards, that's one thing(which I have an entirely new set of problems with), and tell me if that's what you meant so I can list you my problems with that. But trying to say that while he's sunk he'll be able to somehow move whilst he's deep underground surounded by chakra infused mud leaving his body immobile, that's a very ridiculous line of logic. In fact, even when Jiraiya made a small one(expertly slipped in during a 3 way taijutsu fight against top tiers with superior eyes to sharingan might I add) to stop Human path, his

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were one of the parts that were completely submerged. Plus as we all know, Itachi is nowhere near one of the physically strongest characters in the series.

Deep underground? Lol. Yomi Numa doesn't sink it's target instantly, never has, never will. That gives Itachi more than enough time to use Katon to harden the mud. Breaking out of the mud is also not an issue when he has Susanoo. So no, his body won't be immobile, nor will he be completely submerged. He can evade it, he can harden it an escape, he can outright pull himself out with Susanoo. Doesn't need to be one of the physically strongest characters in the manga.

Once he lands in the swamp he's finished, end of story. I hope you wrote that part of your post wrong and didn't mean to suggest that Itachi would be able to escape from it through katon use once he's already submerged. If that is what you meant though then I urge you to reread the manga and get a better grasp on why Jiraiya is clearly superior here.

Except nothing you've shown me has even begun to support the notion that he'll be sunk in an instant. Nothing even supports that he'll get caught.

Last I checked, both characters start the fight at the exact same time lol, Itachi doesn't start the vs match with a 1 second headstart. He's not Mifune, he can't miraculously act when Yomi Numa can be activating by simply moving your hands into a position. Even I as a human being could probably do that before Itachi can do anything from 30 meters. Look, the problem with this post is it's completely baseless. You've given no evidence for Itachi's speed that he will be able to do anything more than lift a finger before he's sunk and drowned. All you've said is that Itachi may or may not be able to see Jiraiya perform a simple handsign, but then the swamp immediately appears, he still can't actually do anything about it until you've shown otherwise.

I've already provided the evidence, statements like the bold only show that you either can't understand it, or you just don't want to understand it.

We've seen on many, many occasions a sharingan user unable to react to someone even though they're clearly in their line of sight as I already showed above. Otherwise no sharingan user would ever be hit with a jutsu in the series, it's not omniscience it's precognitive abilities and they're useless when your body isn't fast enough to act on it. I've shown you Yomi Numa's activation speed, as I said in my first post and now we need to see Itachi's.

Which is not the same thing as anything I'm stating. If he knows what jutsu Jiraiya is going to use before the hand signs are finished, nothing stops him from jumping and evading. There is no "outspeed the swamp" because the swamp won't even be formed by the time Itachi acts. You keep mentioning the swamp's activation speed, but that only matters if the swamp has been used.

Sharingan precog and an opponent's speed isn't the same thing, because the opponent is already in motion, meaning if you can't keep up, it's GG. Has nothing to do with knowing what someone is going to do, before they have even done it.

And Itachi's speed feats? Definitely better than Jiraiya's.

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. Itachi evaded both, meaning he's faster and more reflexive than MS Sasuke, also meaning he easily evades V1 B.

As an Edo, he pretty much

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hence the latter showing no reaction until he's warned, and then he shows surprise, while Naruto (Who did react) shows no surprise, at all. He mentally reacted to Kirin. Evading a swamp he knows Jiraiya is going to use, before Jiraiya actually uses it isn't an issue.

Yeah, but then he boxes himself in even further and makes it even easier for Yomi Numa to land and submerge him no diff. Once you counter Itachi's ability to even react to Yomi Numa, then we'll be able to move on how he handles himself now that he finds himself in the nigh defenseless midair position. After that we can go on to the other jutsu in Jiraiya's massive, extremely versatile arsenal. But for now, you find yourself struggling on only one simple move.

Boxes himself in? In this area? There are so many pipes for him to escape in. There is the area he fought Animal Path at.

 

[UchiGod Itachi]

Know you were.
Anyway its interesting how genin Sasuke managed to get himself out of this the Shinjū Zanshu with his whole body but his head trapped within the earth. How he managed such a feat when he surely couldn't have weaved seals in that situation is impressive.
Dat Sasuke.
Dat Uchiha blood

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Look at this blaze is here welcome back all we need now is owajii

 

[UchiGod Itachi]

Itachi Crow solo's

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[BlacLord™]

No restrictions? Gama Rinshou GG.

Restrict that and then things get interesting.

 

[EliteKakashi]

This is the problem, some of these jiraiya fantards have managed to convince themselves, perhaps a few others even that yomi numa is a GG technique which in reality its far from it. Yes it may have a 100% success rate, but those were agains't a large snake and human path. Not exactly an impressive list.

Ninja's especially high tiers have been facing far more difficult situations/ninjutsu, to believe the likes of itachi, mu, kakashi, etc are going to lose a battle agains't jiraiya by slowly drowning in a swamp. Sure, at best it may immobilize them, but completely drowning and a GG technique, who are you fooling?.

Certain if kishi was to create this particular fight, or any other fights where jiraiya is agains't a capable shinobi, the swamp wouldn't be given the same sort of GG status that some of these jiraiya fans are claiming.

What these fans are merely doing is taking advantage of its limited screen time and its relative success rate agains't low tiers. Certain if it was one of those techniques that has gained alot of screen time, amaterasu/susanoo, etc, and it came up agains't the big boys or high jonins even, we would have seen a lot of counters for it and wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination be a GG technique.

Anyway the DB makes it clear that while jiraiya can create a fairly big swamp, it depends on the size of the target or the number of targets. So in a realistic situation agains't a human he is going to create one just big enough for it to swallow a human, like he did agains't human realm.

Even if we say itachi cannot react and he falls in the mud. Susanoo strength is enough to pull him out of the mud and back onto a solid surface. Kinda have a hard time seeing, somebody of itachi's calibre who has told us that every technique has its weakness is going to die slowly by drowning in a swamp, highly unlikely.




Haha
Problem is there are valid counters though.
The Mirror
Susanoo pulling power
Levitate in Susanoo

To be fair, at least Yomi Numa is a technique that has immobilized note worthy opponents.

Some people want us to believe in this thread that Jiraiya/The toads don't even stand a chance because as soon as they look at Itachi it's over due to genjutsu, despite having full knowledge.

 

[ARGUS]

On the other hand, without V4 susanoo, Totsuka and Yata, Itachi's V3 susanoo's offensive capabilities aren't enough to beat Jiraiya as long as he has full intel.

If it manages to get one clean blow at jiraiya, then the latter is done for,
its slashes are still enough to kill jiraiya,
its not the power that it lacks, its the AOE and the striking speed

Amaterasu can only be used with a ribcage or without susanoo or else it gets dispelled

@Bold - Nope,

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dont see why itachi cant use that within higher versions of susanoo when amaterasu is still only based on the users LoS, meaning that as long as itachi can see, he can use amaterasu

and Jiraiya can use Kibari senbon to finish Itachi off.

Not seeing why Kibari Senbon (KS) cant be blocked by susanooo, or just evaded by itachi,
the latter is still much faster than jiraiya even if hes in SM

 

[UchiGod Itachi]

To be fair, at least Yomi Numa is a technique that has immobilized note worthy opponents.

Some people want us to believe in this thread that Jiraiya/The toads don't even stand a chance because as soon as they look at Itachi it's over due to genjutsu, despite having full knowledge.

Jiraiya giant summonings couldn't even stop Nagato summoning dogs

Spoiler

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Itachi handled them in seconds

Spoiler

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Giant toads get turnt into burnt frogs with Amaterasu .

 

[Joki]

This guy stay crying about "Uchiha Fans". .

Great point there man, truly an incredible counterargument.

Yeah, he can use it on walls and ceilings, but he won't be aiming for the wall or the ceiling unless Itachi is on there. Itachi starts on the ground, so he is going to use it on the ground,

You're right, good so far

then Itachi evades.

aaand you lost it. Based on nothing in your entire post will he be able to do that.

Unless you can show me some magical sixth sense that he has, that'll let him know where Itachi is going to go before he even attempts to go there, Yomi Numa is easily evaded.

It's called looking at where Itachi is about to land. It's not a very difficult concept to grasp, how else do you think he caught Human path?

And magical sixth sense? That's straight up what you're acting like Itachi has. But I guess in order to pretend he has any chance of reacting, you'd have to resort to believing in something crazy like that.

If Jiraiya tries it again, Itachi evades again.

Yeah, because Itachi has shown the magical ability of being able to instantly break his momentum and appear in a different location. Your logic has gotten more ridiculous as time goes on but this proves you're being backed into a corner.

Pain vs. Jiraiya is a large area. Pipes lead outdoors, there are buildings IIRC or at least something like them. There's also an area with water. (Where Jiraiya was killed) Can't use Yomi Numa on water, so if the battle gets there, this jutsu is effectively useless.

It won't get there. Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa and then since you've given absolutely no speed feats from Itachi he has no way of reacting to it, he drowns instantly. Even if he can avoid it which you've given no support for other than lolol future seeing powers, then Itachi jumps. As he has no way to counteract gravity(unless he truly is that godlike in your eyes) and thus must eventually land, Jiraiya uses it again on the location he lands. RIP Itachi, simple

Doesn't matter if it appears nigh instantly, because he'll be off the ground before the jutsu is even used, as he'll know what jutsu Jiraiya is using before he even finishes the handsigns,

This is entirely baseless. Literally a reworded "he can see the future process all information about what's happening and instantly react despite me giving no support whatsoever for his speed before Jiraiya moves his hands." If this isn't wanking I don't know what is...since when does Itachi get a free pass to defy logic and act in a match before the opponent is allowed to move?

They both start at the same time as far as I'm aware, unless the OP added in a "Itachi gets a .5 second headstart to jump so that he can avoid a Yomi Numa on the ground" or "Itachi is now Onoki" stipulation recently.

as shown with Itachi can Kabuto.

I was nice enough to not even talk about the scan you sent because it would have made your argument look worse. That was in Izanami actually, read the page before that and Kabuto knew from loop experience that Itachi was going to use a katon so he changed his mind accordingly. Seriously don't be so biased and look at that one panel, look at hte surrounding panels and context it isn't that hard, you keep messing up this way it tells me you don't have as good a grasp on the manga as you've claimed, definitely not enough to give decent support for Itachi(as therei sn't any because he clearly loses).

Just so you know for sure that you're wrong, as seen, as seen

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Kabuto even sees Itachi use the move and counter it with a suiton in the same exact situation. If what you said held any water(lolol) whatsoever then Itachi would always be 1 step ahead.

Please don't be a strawman. I said he'll know what jutsu he's using before he can use it, and I've already provided proof that is how it works.

This is not a strawman, in fact your post claiming that's what I was doing was a strawman. Can Itachi see Jiraiya's handsign? Maybe, but this does not "prove" he has the reaction speed or movement speed to avoid the jutsu before he gets drowned. And even if he does he has to jump, then land(on ceiling, wall, floor, pipe). When that happens, which is inevitable he gets sunk again a la Human path. But we haven't reached that point yet, since you have not supported Itachi's speed enough to where he could even lift a finger vs Jiraiya yet. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt but you're letting me down.

Actually it will. Itachi read Kabuto's attempt to use Suiton, and ended up hitting him with it EVEN BEFORE KABUTO HAD CAST HIS OWN JUTSU. Same thing happens here.

Actually if you paid attention to your own scans that you posted, you would know that that didn't really happen, it happened in Kabuto's mind as I said above, and it wasn't sharingan precog but nice try intentionally lying.

Can't hit him with Yomi Numa if Itachi isn't on the ground by the time it's used.

Actually yes he can, because as far as I know Itachi has never been able to fly in the manga, he's not Onoki and has to land eventually.

You are asking me to prove he's fast enough to evade a nigh instant swamp,

Precisely what I'm saying, doesn't seem that logical when you put it like that huh? I might just use this own quote to counter your posts somewhere down the line.

even though he doesn't need to be fast enough to evade the swamp

LOL you're right, guess he just gets sunk then gg glad you agree with me here.

as the swamp isn't what he's going to be reacting to, Jiraiya's hand signs are his signal to evade. So no, it's not faulty logic.

It is faulty logic. If you can see his handsigns with your eyes, your body still has to be fast enough to react. You haven't given any support that Itachi would be able to blink because Jiraiya forms them faster. He's not Mifune, you're avoiding the subject. Mainly because you can't counter it...but sure again giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

Also, really now? Your link isn't even a correct counter. Not only was Sasuke not looking at B (hence it being a surprise attack) what does that have to do with hand signs? Lol.

Again, you're doing a bad job proving to me that you have a good grasp on the manga. If you read

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you can see Sasuke turn around, if sharingan was as OP as you'd claim he would have been able to react with his precog but alas his body was too slow despite his eyes being fast enough.

I only used that specific scan because it was the most flashy,

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because you clearly don't remember what happened well enough as it is if you're trying to call that out. In fact if you did comprehend the fight fully and were hiding that information it's proof you're denying facts and lying to yourself about who wins. If sharingan was as hax as you're treating it none of what you saw should have happened since Sasuke can see everything Bee's about to do long before he does it, but alas.

Obviously.

Deep underground? Lol. Yomi Numa doesn't sink it's target instantly, never has, never will.

That's weird, for someone who claims to not be directly contradicting manga proof, it appeared and submerged the snake pretty instantly, and the very first thing that happened to Human Path when we sucked in that small swamp was his arms got pulled under and he struggled to move and was unable. I notice you're blatantly ignoring those scans that I posted again. [

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That gives Itachi more than enough time to use Katon to harden the mud.

Not only are you outright wrong as Itachi's arms will be

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but you're arguing on the false premise that using a katon magically hardens the mud even though nothing suggests it would work that way. Regardless, this assumes Itachi will even survive long enough to use a katon, but you haven't given any evidence suggesting he can jump to avoid Yomi Numa and doesn't die instantly.

Breaking out of the mud is also not an issue when he has Susanoo.

What? Last I checked it's not Shinra Tensei, it doesn't instantly repel all of the swamp that he's trapped in. He still drowns. It won't free him it, only protects from things on the outside unless you have evidence for that of course. It's the same exact thing as Itachi being 100 ft underwater and using Susano'o, it doesn't do anything, it's not as godlike of a defence as you think.

So no, his body won't be immobile,

? Based on what exactly will he be able to move inside?

nor will he be completely submerged.

Again based on what? It's not like Jiraiya needs to completely put him under since the instant Itachi's hands become restricted he becomes a sitting duck and loses, but even you admitted quote and I quote "obviously" to the idea of the DB saying its main intention is to fully submerge the opponent.

He can evade it,

This entire post has avoided giving any evidence for Itachi's speed, all you've said was "oh he can see Jiraiya make the handsigns, also *invalid Izanami scan*", so no, until you actually support it, he can't.

he can harden it an escape,

lol, if he's buried in the swamp he's completely immobile this is common sense, so no he can't.

he can outright pull himself out with Susanoo.

Where is the evidence for this? Susano'o has never once displayed the ability to detach from Itachi unless you have a panel of it growing legs and standing up, then scooping Itachi out of the swamp and putting him back inside himself. But even that has tons of problems and it wouldn't even work. Anyway you know how Susano'o really works and the bottom is its weakness and is always exposed, so there you go irrelevant.

Doesn't need to be one of the physically strongest characters in the manga.

According to the insane notion he can "break free" or perform a ninjutsu despite his arms being immobilized then he does.

Except nothing you've shown me has even begun to support the notion that he'll be sunk in an instant. Nothing even supports that he'll get caught.

Are you literally delusional? The burden of proof is on you, I in fact I have given direct evidence that shows the activation of Yomi Numa being nigh instant, it's been on you this entire time to provide proof Itachi can react. Nothing supports he'll get caught? Nothing supports he won't, at least not yet because you've avoided supporting your claims this entire time. All you've been saying is "Itachi can see the future therefore his body mvoes fast enough to react" while constantly dodging and ignoring the scans I posted. They're pretty clear cut proof, reread my post again with a more open mind please, stop denying it.

I've already provided the evidence, statements like the bold only show that you either can't understand it, or you just don't want to understand it.

AKA "I haven't actually provided proof", you're even dodging pointing out exactly what I've seemed to have misunderstood about your post, and if I really had it would be easy to prove me wrong and support your claims while doing it instead of calling me out baselessly like this.

Of course I know why you dodged pointing it out, since I understood what you meant perfectly and you're just wrong. But anyway, you were the one who wanted to stay on topic, so please support your claims, including ones attempting to call me out for something. If you feel I've misunderstood something don't say "lol clearly I'm so far above you dont understand what im saying, git gud kid", but point out what I misunderstood, that's your job as a debater if you really want to advance this argument.

An example is where I said you misunderstood what happened in the scans, instead of incorrectly saying "wow you misunderstood them completely bro reread it lel", the burden of proof lied with me to show you where you were wrong so I explained about how you wrongly read the Izanami scans, the scans of the clash between Sasuke and B, and the part where you avoided Human path being immobilized and arms being submerged unable to move, etc.

Which is not the same thing as anything I'm stating. If he knows what jutsu Jiraiya is going to use before the hand signs are finished, nothing stops him from jumping and evading. There is no "outspeed the swamp" because the swamp won't even be formed by the time Itachi acts. You keep mentioning the swamp's activation speed, but that only matters if the swamp has been used.

This would be fine and dandy if the fight started 2 seconds in advance before Jiraiya was able to move. This isn't a water dragon jutsu that takes 40 handsigns, it's Yomi Numa and it can be done in 2. That means putting your hand in 1 position then moving it. Itachi won't be able to process that info then react in the time it takes to form, it's just common sense, don't be retarded. And if you're going to try to prove that wrong actually support it with Itachi's body speed this time.

He sees the future of Jiraiya using the moves? He can try to jump, but then Jiraiya's hands actually move and you've given no evidence Itachi will be fast enough to react to that very movement even if he can see it 2 seconds in advance. You seem to be under the impression Itachi can see so far into the future that he'll be able to physically move his body long before Jiraiya gets a chance to actually move, but you're wrong. Because again, he doesn't have a headstart, the match starts at the exact same time and right when it starts is when Jiraiya moves his hands and Itachi apparently attempts to jump. It's only a factor of his eye abilities and sharingan users have been defeated in battle before, it's nowhere near as OP as you're claiming, it doesn't matter what future he sees he still has to move to react and you have not proven how he's going to be able to.

I've provided my logic, very clearly and repeatedly in fact, and now I've given tons of scans and evidence towards this. I'm waiting for you to prove it instead of trying to prance around escaping answering the real question. If you can't show how Itachi physically will be able to react even though Jiraiya moves his hands at the same time then you lose.

Sharingan precog and an opponent's speed isn't the same thing, because the opponent is already in motion, meaning if you can't keep up, it's GG. Has nothing to do with knowing what someone is going to do, before they have even done it.

So Itachi gets a free second before the match begins to read on exactly what handsign Jiraiya is going to make? It doesn't work like that buddy read the above paragraphs, and by the time Itachi sees future Jiraiya make the handsigns he'll have already made them then you're right, it is GG.

Boxes himself in? In this area? There are so many pipes for him to escape in. There is the area he fought Animal Path at.

Right, and then he's even further boxed in by the Susano'o which only reaches a couple meters radius at best that my reply was referring to.

And Itachi's speed feats? Definitely better than Jiraiya's.

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. Itachi evaded both, meaning he's faster and more reflexive than MS Sasuke, also meaning he easily evades V1 B.

You know Sasuke was

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with KB during their encounter, and Itachi was only fleeing(he's very good at that actually), right? Plus Sasuke's lasted much longer and he showed himself actually deflecting some of his hits at least. Unfortunately Sasuke's objective was to capture him so it did entail entering a taijutu battle with him, Itachi never did that with Bee, Sasuke was still much faster comparatively. But I can see why you didn't post the panel of Sasuke doing it too, for good reason(if I was in denial I wouldn't post scans that prove my point wrong either).

As an Edo, he pretty much

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hence the latter showing no reaction until he's warned, and then he shows surprise, while Naruto (Who did react) shows no surprise, at all.

This is possibly one of the most over exaggerated scans in the manga(you have to wonder how Itachi fans were even trying to back up his speed before this chapter came out). If you look closely he aimed for above, so of course he'd be surprised if he was expecting him to appear in front of them, but anyway let's go all the way back for part 1 for a counter to this. Characters have literally been moving in that fashion since the beginning of the manga, the speed feats displayed in Sasuke vs Haku even look better comparatively and don't even let me bring up Lee's.

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But anyway hey that's better than nothing so it's a start, still gonna have to do better than that though, once you prove Itachi's able to jump and doesn't get submerged instantly I'll start posting Itachi's running away speeds vs his actual combat speeds and post how Jiraiya's are far, far superior. That will be fun, once we reach that point that is.

He mentally reacted to Kirin.

lol...the entire time from Sasuke starting to use and actually using Kirin had Itachi off panel, there's no evidence for or against this and I've heard it hundreds of times so nothing you try and say for it will be in your favor, you might as well not even try. Although if you want to go there, his mental speed isn't important as his body speed is, it doesn't matter how quickly he can activate Susano'o in his head in response if he's sunk 100m because his body wasn't quick enough to bend his knees and propel him upwards before Jiraiya moved his hands a little.

Evading a swamp he knows Jiraiya is going to use, before Jiraiya actually uses it isn't an issue.

Since when did Itachi get prep time? Last I checked the match begins at the same time. Itachi doesn't get to time travel back 1 extra second, you seem to be misinterpreting how the sharingan precog works. If you're confused try rereading the end of Part 1 again where it's visually shown and explained, or reply to this and I'll be glad to posts the scans to help you. Or prove you wrong, which it will so maybe asking me isn't advisable if you support Itachi here.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Jiraiya giant summonings couldn't even stop Nagato summoning dogs

Spoiler

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Itachi handled them in seconds

Spoiler

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Giant toads get turnt into burnt frogs with Amaterasu .

This has...what, exactly, to do with what I said?

Also, if you're gonna argue Itachi is gonna waste the majority of his chakra using amaterasu on some boss summons..you're gonna have a bad time.

I have no dog in this fight, but if that's the argument you want to stick with, it won't end well for Itachi. Nor would Itachi be dumb enough to do that.

 

[LuckyMan]

This is the problem, some of these jiraiya fantards have managed to convince themselves, perhaps a few others even that yomi numa is a GG technique which in reality its far from it. Yes it may have a 100% success rate, but those were agains't a large snake and human path. Not exactly an impressive list.

Ninja's especially high tiers have been facing far more difficult situations/ninjutsu, to believe the likes of itachi, mu, kakashi, etc are going to lose a battle agains't jiraiya by slowly drowning in a swamp. Sure, at best it may immobilize them, but completely drowning and a GG technique, who are you fooling?.

Certain if kishi was to create this particular fight, or any other fights where jiraiya is agains't a capable shinobi, the swamp wouldn't be given the same sort of GG status that some of these jiraiya fans are claiming.

What these fans are merely doing is taking advantage of its limited screen time and its relative success rate agains't low tiers. Certain if it was one of those techniques that has gained alot of screen time, amaterasu/susanoo, etc, and it came up agains't the big boys or high jonins even, we would have seen a lot of counters for it and wouldn't by any stretch of the imagination be a GG technique.

Anyway the DB makes it clear that while jiraiya can create a fairly big swamp, it depends on the size of the target or the number of targets. So in a realistic situation agains't a human he is going to create one just big enough for it to swallow a human, like he did agains't human realm.

Even if we say itachi cannot react and he falls in the mud. Susanoo strength is enough to pull him out of the mud and back onto a solid surface. Kinda have a hard time seeing, somebody of itachi's calibre who has told us that every technique has its weakness is going to die slowly by drowning in a swamp, highly unlikely.

This post sounds like your concession. You didn't really get into the point of posting a counter argument until the last paragraph.

First paragraph was completely irrelevant.

You cried in your second paragraph that Itachi does not lose to Yumi Numa because "he is simply Itachi, a high caliber ninja".

Third paragraph was completely irrelevant, basically you crying "Kishi didn't give the swamp GG status portrayal"

Fourth paragraph, you cried again, but this time you whined that if the move had more screen time, it'd be less effective like things such as Amaterasu and Susanoo.

In your fifth paragraph you made it painfully obvious you have no real argument. You acknowledge Jiraiya can make big swamps but then you give him plot induced stupidity and say he'll only make one human sized. Thats like me saying Gaara would only make a Imperial Funeral the size of a human, or Hashirama would only make wood golems and dragons the size of his opponents, or Itachi only shooting flames the size of Jiraiya.

Final paragraph was the only one that made sense, I'll give you that, but while Itachis Susanoo is busy pulling him out of mud, Food Cart Destroyer pushes him back down and ends this.