The time frame between 2 and 3 is virtually non existent. Itachi is not fast enough to be able to jump into the air during the speed it takes from the first and second handsign to complete, regardless of what he sees coming.
As they start the fight at the same time, Itachi won't be able to accurately read what he's about to do and then decide to jump, do it successfully then avoid before it becomes GG. Itachi wouldn't be able to jump to avoid it if Itachi began jumping the
instant the fight began, moving your hands into position takes far less time than jumping, and this assumes Itachi gets prep time and knowledge beforehand and still tries to jump. Itachi jumping<<<<Jiraiya moving his hands in speed, it's literally common sense try jumping then try moving your hands and you'll see.
And to say Itachi will be able to activate his magic KidGamer's Sharingan, then read what he thinks Jiraiya is about to do despite the fact it's being activated at the same time then use it? Completely ridiculous logic, he can't freeze time when he's reading someone's hand seals, and if he could his body's not physically fast enough.
I've already provided speed feats for Itachi. You've done nothing but state that he gets caught because it appears nigh instantly, which is literally based on nothing but it catching a giant snake, and Human Path. Catching Human Path, and a giant snake, aren't feats that allow you to come in here and claim that Yomi Numa is going to catch Itachi, who is by far..faster than Human Path or the snake, and will know what Jiraiya is doing before he does it.
Human Path has a slower air time than Itachi does now? Great, now Itachi is so godlike he can literally control the speed at which he falls and move around in air at will. Sorry if Itachi "evades" Yomi Numa as you're claiming, he's gonna have to land eventually and he's going to land on Yomi Numa.
Magical Sixth Sense? If that's what you want to call the Sharingan you can go ahead and call it that, won't change the facts.
-Saw Kabuto's Jutsu coming before it actually came.
-Was able to use that same jutsu BEFORE Kabuto had even finished casting his own jutsu.
Speed has little to do with it. Timing is the key. Timing is why he was able to do that. If you know something is coming before it actually comes, evading it is simple. And no, this shit is nothing like Sharingan Pre Cog nor is it even Sharingan's precognition function, so don't bother bringing flawed examples up again.
Ignoring the fact that he was stuck inside an infinite repeated loop in Izanami where the same thing happens over and over, of course dream Itachi knows what he's about to do he's in his subconscious. And yeah the way you're treating it definitely makes it seem like a godlike magical sixth sense that sees the future and allows Itachi to move in the fight before Jiraiya gets a chance to despite the fact they start at the exact same time.
What in the hell are you talking about? If Itachi evades Yomi Numa, and lands in his position, Jiraiya has to make the seals for it again, and then the whole process is repeated. He won't need to break his momentum to evade when he would have landed by the time Jiraiya can cast a second Yomi Numa.
Dude wtf? It's
two handsigns, you're making it seem like it takes an hour of prep time. You as a human being could jump 2 ft in the air AKA human jumping height and still perform the signs for 4 Yomi Numa while you're falling. Jiraiya literally watches where Itachi's about to land and then uses it again when he touches ground. It's impossible to instantly jump away regardless of if he sees it coming or not, or float like Onoki and you know that damn well.
I've provided speed feats, and I've proven that he'll see it coming before it's used.
No you haven't. It's literally impossible for Itachi to see it coming before it's used considering they start the match at the same time and Itachi can't reverse time using his sharingan. If they encountered each other on more relaxed terms like when Jiraiya got him to run away, then maybe you'd have an argument and he'd jump to avoid since he could see it in time, but when Jiraiya makes it the same instant Itachi is allowed to move then he's screwed.
More than enough that is needed to dodge it. All you've said is "Instant swamp GG" even though Yomi Numa has never shown to be instant, it's not cast instantly either (Giving opponents time to evade) and it's best feats are catching Human Path and a giant summoned snake.
Is there a problem with that? I kept it short and sweet and it's still 100% valid, Yomi Numa solos. And no I didn't say instant swamp GG, I said nigh instant swamp GG there's a difference, but not a difference that it makes for Itachi who's too slow to jump before Jiraiya moves his hands a little bit.
The instant it makes contact with you, is the instant you're screwed. It doesn't matter if it took 5 hours to pull you under which it clearly doesn't, if you're in Human Path's situation and you become a useless sitting duck because you're immobilized.
Already replied to, and lol, read my posts before saying nonsense like the bold. Where did I say he'd move before Jiraiya would? I said he'd move before Yomi Numa is cast, not when it was cast, so why in the hell do you keep asking me to prove he can evade it?
You're so far backed into a corner you're contradicting yourself in the same sentence lol. If they move at the exact same time, then Itachi has to be able to have the speed to propel himself into the air with a jump before Jiraiya can move his hands, which he cannot. It's that simple.
Your argument at this point is literally "Yomi Numa one shots, prove me wrong". Not much of an argument.
It is when it really does one shot, and you're having this horrible of a time attempting to prove it. Besides I'll give more irrefutable evidence why Jiraiya negs
besides once you show how Itachi
gets past the first jutsu, which sadly isn't happening since he can't.
Me said:
Just so you know for sure that you're wrong, as seen, as seen
You must be registered for see links
Kabuto even sees Itachi use the move and counter it with a suiton in the same exact situation. If what you said held any
water(lolol) whatsoever then Itachi would always be 1 step ahead.
They both start at the same time as far as I'm aware, unless the OP added in a "Itachi gets a .5 second headstart to jump so that he can avoid a Yomi Numa on the ground" or "Itachi is now Onoki" stipulation recently. I was nice enough to not even talk about the scan you sent because it would have made your argument look worse. That was in Izanami actually, read the page before that and Kabuto knew from loop experience that Itachi was going to use a katon so he changed his mind accordingly. Seriously don't be so biased and look at that one panel, look at hte surrounding panels and context it isn't that hard, you keep messing up this way it tells me you don't have as good a grasp on the manga as you've claimed, definitely not enough to give decent support for Itachi(as therei sn't any because he clearly loses).
^You quoted this entire thing in your post, but didn't reply to any of it btw.
Still singing the same old nonsensical song huh? There is no "avoiding the jutsu" there is only him evading when he sees Jiraiya making the hand signs. You don't have to evade something that isn't coming at you.
Well at least I'm glad you conceded that if Jiraiya did use the jutsu before Itachi jumped, he's dead meat.
Yomi Numa isn't even going to be used by the time Itachi has evaded, because Jiraiya will still be forming the hand signs for it.
This is ridiculous, you're under the impression there is a large amount of time when "Jiraiya is still making handsigns" where Itachi gets a chance to jump. Move your hand then move it in another position right after, you know those parts in the manga where their hands are a blur because they're doing a shitton of handsigns really fast? This only takes 2, Itachi cannot jump before that I don't give a flying fadoodle how many handsigns he can see in advance if they start the fight at the same time. what about this do you not understand it is not a difficult concept.
Just like Kabuto. He saw what jutsu Kabuto was going to use before he used it,
Because he had seen him use it again and again and again and again and again.
via Hand Signs. Instead of copying it this time around, he evades Yomi Numa.
He can't, plus even if the Kabuto feat was real he was given time in advance to predict his move, Kabuto didn't act at the exact same time Itachi's given a chance to even activate his sharingan. But it's a BS feat either way so I don't have to go there, since I'm nice I did.
I've already shown speed feats for Itachi (Better than that of Jiraiya's) and you've shown me nothing from Yomi Numa that'd lead me to believe it'll catch someone on his speed level. "Yomi Numa GG" isn't an argument. An argument usually has "evidence" supporting it. You've provided none, at all.
According to your logic the instant the fight starts is when Itachi starts using his sharingan and predicts his move in the very short time it takes Jiraiya to make the 2nd handsign. Sorry he's not jumping that fast before it even touches his leg even though it formed and submerged half of a massive 50 meter+ snake in the span of 1 panel, I don't even have to provide proof hell Konohamaru could form 1 handsign in the time it takes Itachi to jump. Ok get up and do a physical exercise for me, try and jump in the air then try and move your hands in 2 positions quickly, which is faster. Unless there's some weird proof that proves character's leg speeds are faster than their hand seal speed...
And he doesn't have super speed midair, so even if he did jump to avoid he has to fall, therefore land, and therefore land in another swamp and then GG.
He jumps, lands. Jiraiya tries to use it again, and then he evades, again.
LOL wut? You must be delusional or mixing up what I'm saying(or far too stubborn to consider opposing viewpoints before dismissing them no matter how obvious). That's one of the most fallacious things I've ever seen-- You missed an entire world of possibilities just assuming Itachi gets to land for free. Let me fill in the blank for you. Itachi jumps, then falls, then BEFORE he lands Yomi Numa gg.
"Jiraiya tries to use it again, then he evades again" right after just assuming Itachi lands lol...I cant believe this all this blatant disregard for facts and common sense after what's I've emphasized and has been discussed all this time. Step up your game man I've been kinda ok with your posts up to this point, but now comes the part you're really pushed into a corner and stat saying all this nonsensical desperate babble. Gotta realize when it's over man.
Furthermore that posts the most blatantly baseless post ever, just "yep Itachi evades again gg, no explanation as to how if Jiraiya uses it right before he lands...he just does." You avoided the subject throughout this entire post and you gave absolutely no logical explanation how in the hell he plans to avoid the one he's falling right towards at all lol.
Oh I know it was in Izanami, doesn't change anything as Izanami doesn't change the abilities or strengths of the people made up in the loop. If you want to try and invalidate that by crying "Not real" I suggest you get proof that Izanami would buff Itachi or nerf Kabuto in a way for that to be possible.
I know you have a little bit of trouble reading the words on the pages but seriously read the surrounding ones including the link I sent.
Your own scan proves your point wrong. The same situation happened dozens of times, that was the entire point of the chapter emphasizing Kabuto can't win because everything he does has already been recorded and put on loop to put him back in the same situation. Weird-Kabuto-mind-Itachi doesn't have a mind of his own, and if he did it's only what Kabuto's perception of him is and in no way reflects the real Itachi's actions, which, if you don't remember even though I already linked it, was Kabuto
You must be registered for see links
the incoming jutsu. In fact he already did it before that too.
And yes it does because it's in Kabuto's subconscious loool I can't believe you're actually trying to use that to prove Itachi can see Jiraiya's handsigns in the future even though they're both allowed to move at the same time.
Yeah, to react to the hand signs, not the jutsu that is upcoming. If he can react to Jiraiya's making of the hand signs, he can evade, and there is literally no reason he can't.
Other than the fact it's outright impossible for him to see Jiraiya make the sign, process what jutsu he's using hten
immediately bend his legs, and propel him up to jump all in the time it takes for Jiraiya to move his fingers?
The rest is nonsense I've already replied to, or stuff you are clearly misinterpreting.
Alright, keep telling yourself that and blatantly ignoring key points such as "as I know Itachi has never been able to fly in the manga, he's not Onoki and has to land eventually" and "ou haven't given any support that Itachi would be able to blink because Jiraiya forms them faster. He's not Mifune, you're avoiding the subject" which is kind of ironic but anyway moving on.
1. Not the same thing as what I'm describing.
2. Sasuke has already shown to be able to react to Killer B's speed. [
You must be registered for see links
] [
You must be registered for see links
] So no, he didn't get hit because he was too slow to react. He got hit because he was taken by surprise, something that has no factor in this fight.
Again intentionally lying about scans, either that or you misunderstood them. That attack was an extremely straightforward and linear attack so Sasuke was able to deflect it far more easily that way. It's how sharingan has always worked.
But wait, that's strange? During actual combat in a taijutsu clash, somehow he lost the exchange...Why would this happen if Sasuke has "already shown" to be able to react to Bee's speed? Yeah bro he clearly allowed himself to get stabbed by Bee's swords, his sharingan let him react if he wanted to but he
planned to get stabbed all along. Flawless logic.
3. He thought B was down. Has nothing to do with him being unable to react because his "Sharingan failed him".
Still had it activated so your point is moot, if sharingan was godly future sight powers as you claim then he would have seen Bee get up and attempt to attack before he actually moved, in fact you even claimed he can react to Bee's speed before. No idea why you'd admit that when it only reinforces my argument and harms yours but alright
Meanwhile their actual taijutsu bout that isn't a linear straightforward dash in which Sasuke was rekt in, was ignored by you.
Except I never said that Sharingan sees everything someone's about to do before they do it, I said that he can see Jiraiya's jutsu coming before it actually happens. Once again, you are being a strawman in attempt to make your "argument" seem more valid than it really is.
Are you kidding me? You need to write your posts more clearly if you think I am strawmanning you. Everything I've said is still valid, you haven't even slightly countered anything I said and I've addressed your claims very clearly and even every time I've seen you misunderstand something I've been kind enough to point out exactly what it was you misunderstood.
That's my job as a debater because you know, if I say you're wrong then the burden of proof's on me to show that. You on the other hand have been laying casual claims out like "lol I already countered this nonsense" or "lol you cant even understand what happened on that panel nice going bro" without even showing what I apparently misunderstood every 5 seconds.
Jiraiya is making hand signs, thus the Sharingan will be able to see what's coming next. Nothing to do with B landing a surprise attack on Sasuke.
Itachi gets a headstart in the match? They both start moving at the exact same time, until you can prove Itachi bends his knees and jump before Jiraiya moves his hands a little then he gets swallowed by the undeworld neg diff.
I don't care what he can see, I don't care if he can see 2 years in the future, he won't be able to counter, and if he could see 2 years in the future to know to jump before the match even starts somehow, then Jiraiya would see that and not even attempt to use Yomi Numa and adapt accordingly. But anyway that's retarded and I'm talking hypotheticals in a world that couldn't exist besides maybe the most dedicated Itachi fans and it's literally impossible so moving on.
Learn what submerged means buddy. If the snake was submerged, it'd be completely down under. I don't know about you, but Human Path and the snake are still visible, hence not being subdued. So no, that's not instant, at all.
Both instances the swamp wasn't big enough to sink them, not that Jiraiya needs to make one big enough to sink Itachi as anything up to the waist is much more than enough proven by Human path's uselessness.
To your own admission the swamp's intention is to fully submerge the target. No idea why you're trying to argue against that, Jiraiya literally said "Damn it won't even sink all the way in such a small swamp" and to quote you on the topic of it fully submerging the target, "Obviously."
Human Path's arms were immobilized because it's arms were on the ground when Jiraiya turned it into the swamp and he was kneeling when he was caught. Unless Itachi becomes submerged enough to block his arm movements, you have no dice. And you've failed to show me proof that he'll be instantly submerged by the swamp.
"its" and lol, unless Itachi plans on holding his hands up in the air over his head while he sinks pretty sure they're generally around the waist level, and it sunk Human up to his chest despite the end result be him standing pretty upright in the swamp.
You know how quicksand works right? Even the real world has it and if your arms were held above your waist while your chest is under you'd have a lot of trouble making use of them. People die from quicksand because of suffocation since it surrounds their chest and they cant breathe, what is Itachi even going to do with his arms if he had them? He's a sitting duck, best he can do is flail them around until he dies anyway.
This is all operating on the assumption it doesn't fully submerge him(because Jiraiya doesn't need to, but on account of the fact it easily sunk a massive snake in 1 panel in such a small swamp he will), or the insane idea his hands won't get pulled in in the first place.
Nothing except science. Unless you can show me why it'd be different from normal mud. Fire heats up mud, when mud becomes heated it hardens. That's a fact. Let's not try and deny it.
Other than the fact it's chakra infused earthly magical mud from the underworld that fully submerges the target and immobilizes them so they can't move their body?
You haven't given me any logical way Itachi plans to use katon on this LOOL, so you're sayig he'll be trapped above his waist, his arms are gonna be all awkward above him then he can form katon signs then burn the very swamp he's been trapped in even though it's 1 ft close to his mouth, to harden it assuming he doesn't get burned alive becauseo f that. Pure genius. On top of that if the swamp hardens then it's like being surrounded by concrete, I hope burned-alive Itachi remembered to take a deep breath before he hardened it(Literally the exact opposite of how to use a katon) because if not he won't be able to breathe.
I know Itachi fans get desperate in situations like this but dude, that's one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever heard. As I said 1-2 posts ago, if you're trying to claim Itachi will be in the air and use katon on the swamp that he "evaded" by your logic, so that he can safely land on it, that's one thing. Saying "lol well while he's trapped he just katons is then hardens it... then he's ok somehow even though I didn't detail it at all" is another story. Pretty baffled here.
Except you've failed to do the following:
-Provide evidence as to why Yomi Numa will catch Itachi despite it's best feats being catching a snake and human path.
This means nothing, plenty of jutsu have never actually landed on anything. Deidara's C3's only feat was being tanked by Gaara's sand but I'm not doubting its destructive power even though it never landed on anyone.
Except that's a completely wrong line of logic I just wanted to satisfy you. In reality, Human path and Itachi are both normally affected by gravity and thus fall at the exact same speed, as Itachi can't fly he has to land one day and considering it caught Human in the same exact situation--or even more difficult as Jiraiya was in 3 way combat fighting off and Human and 2 others with eyes superior to sharingan, and Human was on the ceiling and easily could have jumped according to you and is even more affected by gravity, and Jiraiya still slipped it in the fight casually mid combat and about 20 other things-- he has no way of countering. Replace Human path with Itachi and the same exact thing happens, he's not god his body functions the same way as everyone else's besides Onoki.
-Provide evidence as to why Yomi Numa will sink him completely in an instant, despite it not doing so to any of it's targets in the manga.
Hell, provide proof showing that Yomi Numa is instant like you claim it is.
Again another strawman as I never said this, in fact I never said that only that its activation is nigh instant, the second it touches Itachi he's screwed though as factually proven by Human's inability to do anything and more. But to make you happy(or mad that I'm right) look at the panel in which it was used originally in part 1 to see the massive snake attempting to attack and then the swamp immobilizes its movement in the span of 1 panel. An area hundreds and hundreds of times the size of width and depth of Itachi and it put half the snake under.. too bad it wasn't even completely submerged in "such a small swamp" and not like he needs to completely drown Itachi since that makes it too easy.
The sheer fact he's far faster than any of it's canonical targets
This is an incredibly fallacious claim by you. This logic doesn't hold any merit because it's faulty logic,"Yomi Numa has only captured 2 targets, therefore it's impossible for Yomi Numa to capture Itachi because he's faster than those 2 targets and Yomi Numa hasn't been shown on panel to capture anyone faster than those 2." This is blatantly wrong because thus: Yomi Numa has never been shown attempting
and failing to capture a target slower than Itachi, in fact both times it's been used it has succeeded and with flying colors at that.
And I've already answered why Human Path and Itachi are essentially equal in that case, even if that fallacy
did make sense and was correct logic. Human and Itachi are equally affected by gravity, if Itachi and human jump and land on something Jiraiya uses it right where they land, Itachi can't circumvent that in any way he has no way of countering it any more than Human does. I don't care if it's BM Naruto or Itachi or Konohamaru they'd all fall the same after they jump once, and they'll be forced to fall into it and get trapped. Does Naruto have other answers? Yeah obviously he'd counter it no diff, but assuming he just falls like everyone else here and doesn't use any of the answers he has that Itachi and co doesn't, he would get trapped too. Being a higher tier doesn't exempt you from having to follow the laws of basic physics.
and the fact he'll see it coming is more than enough for him to evade it. Like I said, your argument is nothing but "Yomi Numa GG prove me wrong".
Yes I'm writing more to emphasize that Yomi Numa really does GG. You should have been able to prove it wrong with facts and evidence easily by now if that really was the case but unfortunately you havent so Yomi Numa shits pretty hard as of yet.
Itachi sees it coming whilst he's in midair falling to the ground? Pray tell what he can possibly do if Jiraiya is forming the handsigns to make a swamp appear directly underneath him while he's affected by gravity and must land on the ground somehow. You cannot possibly counter this, it's utterly impossible for Itachi to avoid it that's what I'm saying.
Look at both sides logically, this is the reason I think Jiraiya wins. Itachi is pretty cool too as a person but that doesn't stop him from losing the vs fight. When you look at it like this rationally you'd realize he truly has no response, because it doesn't exist.
Typing longer posts isn't going to make it seem any more logical.
I know you're condescending and drop one liners all the time but that's what makes our posts different, I'm writing more because I'm actually trying to educate you with the rational truth instead of clouded biased logic. I know you think I'm being antagonistic but I'm just trying to give you a clearer view and more detail on what actually happened and supporting every single thing I say with reasoning behind it(including htis paragraph). If you want me to
not give you reasons and my thought process for everything I claim in my post, let me know, but then your replies will only be filled with "lolol baseless" and make me repeat myself 500 times with that same reasoning in the
next post explaining it.
1. He won't be submerged completely, so why in the hell are you even comparing this to an underwater scenario?
If you aren't addressing the point of that example then you didn't understand it and you're avoiding hte main subject again. Even if he's only halfway submerged it's the same thing, Susano'o doesn't repel all of the mud that's already surrounding him inside the area of effect Susano'o covers in hte first place. Literalyl show me a panel of Susano'o pushing away and blocking all physical matter 1 millimeter from Itachi's body outwards to where the
actual Susano'o body appears, it'll be interesting to see. It ain't shinra tensei.
2. If he's not submerged completely, and the mud around him is hardened, Susanoo only needs to smash said mud and then Itachi is free.
LOL WHAT Since when is Susano'o capable of smashing the concrete inside itself? Itachi is immobile and can't move, it has no way of smashing the mud that's
inside where its shield and body appears. I'm
really interested in hearing your logic behind this one, you seem to be really desperate to make a claim of this level. That's the same thing as you trying to punch one of your internal organs. Literally the same exact thing.
Anyway, here's where my point of Susano'o "boxing him in" comes into play, if the AoE of the swamp is much smaller than the area Susano'o covers he has no way of destroying it with Susano'o. Hey plus they even have full knowledge, isn't that great more support.
It's intention being to full submerge the opponent=/=It doing so instantly=/=It doing so before Itachi can do something about it.
Except once he's touched by it, he can't do anything about it. Using your ingenious katon strategy he's going to burn himself to death considering the only thing he;s been shown making are massive fireballs and he has to shoot it right in front of him while he's sinking.
1. Yes, it has been shown to detach from Itachi. [
You must be registered for see links
]
2. It didn't mean it'd grab him and pull him up, poor wording. It'll simply break out.
I was waiting for you to say that lol...sorry it destroys your points, in fact I was thinking about posting that exact scan to help
reinforce my point. Hey, you know what happens when it detaches from Itachi, the frail non-durable character who's stuck defenseless in a swamp until Susano'o breaks him out, right?
Yeah, Jiraiya's just gonna sit on his ass and wait for susano'o to appear behind him, even with full knowledge, and break him out. LOL
All he has to do is hit him once, then that "defense" that you claimed was a decent response to "defenseless? he has unbeatable susanoo gg" is completely null and void. Second it detaches from him Jiraiya kicks his head off and he dies instead of sitting on his ass waiting for it to free him.
Plus, based on the COMPLETELY ridiculous notion that Itachi's even able to "harden" it or Susano'os powerful enoug to break it out anyway. And how is Susano'o planning on breaking him out without hurting Itachi himself? Nevertheless none of that really matters, since you openly conceded the trapped Itachi willingly takes off the only thing preventing him from being rekt in .2 seconds.
I'm proud you opened yourself up to this point I've been waiting, I wanted to give you a chance but it's ok it was a fun debate, there's definitely no doubt about it now.
Doesn't help your case that Yomi Numa's best feat is immoblizing a giant fodder snake (The same kind KN0 Naruto was overpowering in Part 1) and Human Path, who is nowhere near as powerful as Susanoo, physically.
Same kind of fallacy that you used before about how because Yomi Numa only trapped fodders then anyone who is better than those fodders will be able to avoid it. Just because KN0 was physically stronger than boss snake doesn't mean anything, but you already gave up with the above paragraphs, and Susano'o punching the swamp will only get
it trapped if anything since the idea of it hardening is kinda weird. Plus there's the part where Jiraiya is sitting around waiting for Itachi to do that and hte second Susano'o tries to pull him out it's gg.
3. Susanoo bottom being exposed is irrelevant. Not gonna stop it from breaking out nor will it stop it from pulling Itachi out, nor will the swamp instantly sink it like you seem to believe, despite me not seeing evidence from you.
You have seen evidence on
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
. Almost no time passed, at least not enough time for that massive charging snake t do anything about it or for Human to "jump again" like you're claiming and hell, Jiraiya didn't even use it before he touched the ground that time like he can so easily do with Itachi who apparently jumps to avoid it.
4. His arms won't be immobilzed though. Your evidence was a scan of Human Path's arms being immobilized...when Jiraiya used it on him, when his hands were on the ground.
You realize what position Itachi will be in if he holds his arms up right? It's going to immobilize the rest of his body it'll be extremely hard to use handsigns, and absolutely no handsign he makes will benefit him when he's a sitting duck like that. Try and picture it in your head, look at how things would actually unfold if that happened and get the images out of your head that say Itachi is unbeatable and would be able to move in the swamp in any position, make as many handsigns while sinking or drowning and instantly katon the swamp harden it, then Susano'o breaks it somehow and frees him then he moves on. Human path was literally unable to move in any way and the tiny swamp that sunk the massive snake in 1 panel was thousands of times the size of Itachi.
You must be registered for see links
Except you've given no real reason as to why it's invalid. I'll wait though, don't really expect anything from you though.
I have now, and yeah I feel the same towards your posts now that I've countered all of your points at this rate, now the desperation claims will truly begin if you even reply.
Except you haven't. Anyone can give me a manga scan and say that said jutsu is nigh instant due to the fact the manga is stilled. I'll look at how it's caught, and a giant snake and Human Path aren't impressive. Especially when neither of them could even see it coming like Itachi could.
Other things in manga gradually happen, in that panel you literally see a poof and then it's submerged in the swamp. Before that the snake was moving even going after Jiraiya but he stopped it in its tracks, I've posted the panel many many times now so it's not my fault if you're openly choosing to reject what happens on panel.
Scans? Nothing you've posted so far is clear cut proof of anything, only in your imaginary world where Jiraiya low diffs Itachi I guess.
Other than Itachi's obvious defeat I guess it's not proof of that much. Imaginary world lol more like real one
I've supported my claims. I'm just waiting for you to get real evidence for Yomi Numa being instant.
Why the strawman? I've never once said it was instant, just when Itachi is caught at that instant he's done for. So same thing I guess given you've got no evidence proving Itachi's legs move faster than Jiraiya can make 2 seals.
Ironically enough the very post you quoted was telling about how you're dodging my main points, and I still don't have an answer to your logic of how Itachi can magically see in the future to know he's gonna use it before he even begins and they start fighting at the same exact time. But even then, I'm nice enough to consider the points
if he doesn't get negged instantly by Yomi Numa(which he does) since I know Jiraiya wins so easily.
Except the Izanami scans weren't read wrongly, you are only trying to invalidate them based on....oh wait, nothing.
Other than rational logic and actual comprehension of the chapter
Human Path was immobilized because it's arms were on the ground when the swamp was made. Only reason. So that's another thing you are wrong on, along with it being submerged.
Ah yes, his arms were the only reason he was immobile. Definitely not because the rest of his body was completely submerged or because the swamp prevents him from moving or anything.
Must be just the arms. If Itachi can avoid getting his arms sunk it doesn't matter if it's up to his neck clearly, he no diff pulls off a katon somehow and escapes because you only get immobilized if your arms go under. True brilliance, how will I ever counter this genius logic.
Doesn't need to start 2 seconds in advance. If he sees Jiraiya making hand signs, he'll see what happens before that. Who gives a flying rat's ass if it's not a 40 hand sign jutus attack?
You used plural at the start, again proving by the time he sees Jiraiya use the handsigns the swamp will have already been made.
Itachi and Kabuto was only 1-2 hand signs, yet Itachi still beat him, due to the Sharingan.
Ah yes non existent Mind Itachi whose katon was already countered in the loops previous to that. Anyway, they had already clashed some time before that so it makes sense even given your ridiculous logic that I'm willing to consider no matter how illogical, that Itachi could predict his moves in advance to some extent...but here? Sorry nope, not when the ystart at the same time, once Jiraiya makes the first handsign and Itachi sees what's coming next it's over to your own admission.
Same exact thing happens here, except Itachi evades instead of copying Jiraiya's jutsu. "he can't do it because it's common sense" isn't any form of an argument or a counter argument.
Unfortunately when it really is common sense then yeah it's an argument that you're just being clearly too stubborn to accept the obvious facts. How is Itachi supposed to future-see with Sharingan that Jiraiya is gonna make a move when they start at the exact same time, then realize and process what jutsu and realize he has to jump, then bend his legs and push him up before Jiraiya makes his hands in 1 position?
You're still exaggerating Itachi's powers to the point of making it seem like he gets a 1 second headstart to read what Jiraiya's about to do. Pretend he has sharingan turned off and knows he has to jump the second the fight starts for a second. Which is faster Jiraiya moving 2 fingers or Itachi going into full jump to dodge what he knows is coming. Now erase that and pretend he actually has to use sharingan and magically read his hands and then do all of that. It's literally common sense it's not my fault you want Itachi to win so bad you can't see the truth. I've tried to help you look at things rationally plenty now.
Oh wow, nice counter argument. You are only making empty claims and asking me to prove them wrong. Like I said, in reality you have no argument.
Every single thing I have said has a support and base for it, that's why I think Jiraiya wins because it's based off something other than blind fanboyism. Please show me any specific example of things I have not elaborated on and I will do just that with manga evidence and my thought process. Until then it's
you who's making the "empty claims" by claiming that mine are empty. I see no examples in that paragraph because they don't exist and again you know it.
I only said that he'll move while Jiraiya is still making the hand signs, not long before Jiraiya has a chance to move. Once again, you are being a strawman and it's pretty pathetic at best.
Yet again, you're under the impression there will be a lasting freeze frame of time that exists "while" Jiraiya is "busy" making those handsigns. In reality, he moves them into a position, then puts them in another position then the ground Itachi is on pulls him under. He physically cannot jump and avoid in the time it takes for Jiraiya to do that, please stop avoiding the subject.
I suggest you read before you reply, cause I never said this.
Essentially you have, and what you really 'have' said has been ignored by you and you haven't elaborated on it at all.
This is what you did: I pointed out what kind of ridiculous logic you're using as to why Itachi can avoid Yomi Numa, then you said "No, that's not what I meant at all, learn 2 read kid." Then you continued to go on as if what you said was still proven correct because I "read it wrong" when there wasnt anything there other than what I called out to begin with. That's not how you debate, you have to point out what about your argument is actually backed up by facts instead of a baseless claim. Me "reading your post wrong" or not doesn't free you from the requirement to back up that claim. Pointing out a flawed logic in someone else's argument doesn't automatically validate your own, it still has no support and you changed the subject through that way.
Susanoo moves with him. How in the hell would he be boxed in by it?
Like I said above you walked right into that one without knowing what I meant even though I tried to emphasize, so it's your own loss.
Once Itachi gets sunk, Susano'o has no way of damaging inside itself in order to break him out without first detaching from Itachi. Once it does that, he has no defense until Susano'o breaks him out(assuming the completely baseless idea that it even can)...and then it's
very clearly GG as Jiraiya easily kills Susano'o-less, immobilized Itachi.
The same exact impact marks appear for Sasuke and Itachi during the sword dance, so no, Itachi was doing more than running away.
The difference is Itachi was clearly on defence and literally jumped away as soon as possible, Sasuke was
engaged in a taijutsu fight with Bee and even planned on countering not that hard of a concept to understand. Although I already went over this above when we discussed how Sasuke clearly allowed himself to get stabbed by Bee's swords even though he was able to see through his speed earlier with sharingan easy. Genius
Except I know that Sasuke did it, don't need to post the panel. Regardless of the bold, if they both achieved the same feat, that means Itachi is at least as fast as that version of Sasuke, who is still fast enough to evade the likes of V1 Killer B. Doesn't help that Sasuke was shown to stumble while Itachi didn't, not once. Yomi Numa isn't an issue.
Sasuke didn't either, it was after he continued the taijutsu match that he lost. He could have easily fled the same as Itachi as shown
You must be registered for see links
but he stuck around instead of dashing away like Itachi did.
I'm sure there's some hard evidence that Itachi's precog is somehow superior to Sasuke's though hm? Please explain how sharingan users allow themselves to get hit by techniques all the time if they're able to see them before they even happen?
And then there's him getting B's back despite being next to Nagato a second or two earlier.
You must be registered for see links
I don't understand why Itachi supporters still use this kind of stuff when both Naruto
and Bee were shouting "I know already!" to them, it even happens in the exact page you linked so idk why you're trying to disprove your own points. He didn't need their advice, plus KB was a lot closer to them than Naruto was. Bee was never shown once having trouble reacting to anything Itachi did.
Not even sure how this is a counter. That scan you posted doesn't change the fact that B couldn't react. Nothing you typed here changes that fact actually. If I was only comparing how he moved, you'd have a point, but B's reaction is my basis of comparison, so once again, no dice.
Of course you're not sure, you openly reject anything that doesn't fall right in to fit and support your own beliefs. Bee was looking where Itachi and Nagato were 2 seconds before that, Naruto's a sensor and he already jumped in the air since he knew where Itachi was.
But yeah at least you admitted they moved in the exact same fashion, literally 99% of shinobi in the manga can move like this so I hope you're not going to try to argue on using that as a speed feat. I'll show more of Haku's combat speed and Lee's to see how much more impressive it looks if you really want, either way this holds no relevance in the idea Itachi will be able to jump before Jiraiya forms handsigns at the very beginning, or escape Yomi Numa once he's trapped inside(be it the very beginning, or after he baselessly jumps to avoid since I'm giving benefit of the doubt).
And why would Itachi need prep time?
-Jiraiya makes one hand sign.
-Sharingan predicts his movement, and realizes that he's going to make another one to complete Yomi Numa.
-Itachi knows what's coming before the second hand sign is made.
-Itachi jumps away.
-Yomi Numa is used.
-Thus Itachi evaded.
It's really that simple. There is nothing instant about Yomi Numa, or fast about Jiraiya's hand speed that'd make Itachi unable to react.
Unfortunately, the time between #1 and 2 are so miniscule by the time Itachi actively realizes Jiraiya is going to use Yomi Numa and #2 happens, Yomi Numa has already been used and his legs are
not physically fast enough to bend and jump before Jiraiya
moves his hands quickly, so he gets sunk. You make it seem like it takes hours for Jiraiya to make a single handsign but by the time he uses 1 and Itachi realizes he's using 2 he will have used it.
Unless you have some proof that Itachi can time travel back 3 seconds the instant the fight starts, they both start the fight at the exact same time and they both move at the exact same time. Even if Itachi knew that Jiraiya was using Yomi Numa before the fight started and could see that in the future which is impossible, he probably can't react in time because the reality of the situation is they still begin to move at the same time. I don't care how far in the future he can see, but he will not be able to jump before Jiraiya activates it especially with the notion he has to "future read" first to even know he's begun forming handsigns.
Just seeing things is not enough when his body isn't fast enough to do anything about it, as evidenced by Sasuke "allowing" Bee to impale him with his swords, since he clearly could have countered with OP sharingan precog if he wanted to.
What's faster, Jiraiya moving his hands or Itachi processing what's about to happen then bending his legs then jumping to avoid what he can't possibly know is coming until it's already pretty much activated, and only
then can decide to move at best? Your logic here's getting pretty iffy, try to consider things more rationally and see it's just not possible.
