SM Jiraiya vs Itachi

[Icelerate]

In order to use Yomi Numa, doesn't Jiraiya have to touch the substance/ground/level/platform that he wants to use it on in order to project his chakra inside the substance he want to turn into mud?

 

[Beans2]

In order to use Yomi Numa, doesn't Jiraiya have to touch the substance/ground/level/platform that he wants to use it on in order to project his chakra inside the substance he want to turn into mud?

Considering Jiraiya used it in midair...

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[Beans2]

ok.


Bold is wrong, but he didn't cross that much distance..but that's not the point. If he can move fast with susanoo on, then it's not that heavy. Itachi pulled on kabuto, but that doesn't change the fact that sasuke still went from point a (next to itachi) to point b (behind kabuto's hood in a second or two. That was shunshin.

And no, itachi deactivated it because he needed kabuto to stab him in order to set up izanami. Kabuto can't stab him if susanoo is active. But i'll agree that it has some weight to it, not enough that he'd sink fast enough to stop him from doing anything.

If he does that, then frog call can't be in effect, since the toad will be between susanoo/itachi and jiraiya (who will be on top of the toad) so he can counter by leveling susanoo up and taking the toad out with a totsuka sword...he can repel it with yata mirror, or he can just knock it away using yasaka magatama.


Given what he was able to do with it above, no, it's not that heavy.

Susanoo moves based on itachi's will, not his physical movements. Susanoo isn't a living thing so they can't paralyze it.

Ok I'm still not seeing how that was a good speed feat or a significant distance traveled. Itachi pulls back the snakes, reeling in Kabuto; Itachi shouts "Sasuke!"; Sasuke pulls back Kabuto's hood as he starts running; he sees the hood is filled with snakes; he comes to a halt.

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From the direction of Sasuke's movement from Point A to Point B we can see that Sasuke moved to the left of his original position; meaning he didn't run forward or to the right to intercept Kabuto, he only went left. So Itachi reeled Kabuto in to Point A (where Sasuke already was) and Sasuke grabbed the hood as he ran to his left. He didn't shunshin to Kabuto's position, Kabuto came to him.

Almost immediately? No, he wasn't. The events that occured from him getting caught to here are not immediate. He hit human path, caught them in the genjutsu, then there was the dialogue inside of the genjutsu world.

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The dialogue inside the genjutsu world just shows the time that elapsed between him catching the paths in genjutsu until the moment of their deaths, not until the moment Jiraiya canceled the jutsu or pulled Human Path out of the swamp. Jiraiya could have done that at any time they were in the genjutsu.

ok, point.


Point and point.

The range of one frog call covers that of both summons, so either ma or pa could have handled it on their own if frog call is something they can use on their own. But they used it together, because it's a jutsu they can only use when they croak together, in unison. Not on their own.

No reason besides it being shown that way in the manga? Lol.

But as the range expands the vibration weakens as it gets further away from the epicenter. There were two targets so it would be more efficient for both Ma and Pa to use it simultaneously on each target rather than one of them using it and having it get weaker as the range expands.

Meh, I'll just agree with you. Really wish Frog Call was shown more than once so we can get a better idea on how it functions.

Forgot to reply to this part. Lol. Susanoo, which Jiraiya can't stop offensively and can only hold off temporarily, pretty much plows through his offenses and his defenses and rips him a new one. V4 Susanoo strikes so fast that all of Orochimaru's hydra heads get cut at the same time, and hit the ground, at the same time. Jiraiya isn't dancing around Susanoo's attacks.

Hm, okay. Still, if Jiraiya is at a range, Itachi would have to deactivate Susano'o or downgrade to a lower level of Susanoo in order to close the gap between him and Jiraiya since Itachi can't use shunshin while maintaining Susanoo During this small window of time where Susano'o is deactivated or downgraded, Jiraiya can react to Itachi's shunshin and obliterate him with Chou Oodama Rasengan, knock him back with the force of Goemon, or crush him with FCD. Clones can be used as diversions and danger sensing + the toads' own sensing comes in handy at reacting to Susanoo's attacks. You sure about all the Hydra heads hitting the ground at the same time? The SFX shows "Thud thud thud thud thud thud." [

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]. If they all hit the ground at the same time, there would only be one "thud".

 

[Joki]

snippy snip

Kind of late reply so sorry, but it was a bit longer than usual so I had to write it in bits lol. I was like 90% done but then I had to leave and wait to get back until just now even though I only had to write like 1 sentence before I post...AKA this one. so basically, counters in here:

Spoiler

Ok first off here's a list of all the (relevant) things you outright removed from my post since you couldn't counter them.

Spoiler

Itachi is immobile and can't move, it has no way of smashing the mud that's inside where its shield and body appears. I'm really interested in hearing your logic behind this one, you seem to be really desperate to make a claim of this level. That's the same thing as you trying to punch one of your internal organs. Literally the same exact thing.

Except once he's touched by it, he can't do anything about it. Using your ingenious katon strategy he's going to burn himself to death considering the only thing he;s been shown making are massive fireballs and he has to shoot it right in front of him while he's sinking.

Other things in manga gradually happen, in that panel you literally see a poof and then it's submerged in the swamp. Before that the snake was moving even going after Jiraiya but he stopped it in its tracks, I've posted the panel many many times now so it's not my fault if you're openly choosing to reject what happens on panel. Other than Itachi's obvious defeat I guess it's not proof of that much.

They both start at the same time as far as I'm aware, unless the OP added in a "Itachi gets a .5 second headstart to jump so that he can avoid a Yomi Numa on the ground" or "Itachi is now Onoki" stipulation recently. at least I'm glad you conceded that if Jiraiya did use the jutsu before Itachi jumped, he's dead meat.

You need to write your posts more clearly if you think I am strawmanning you. Everything I've said is still valid, you haven't even slightly countered anything I said and I've addressed your claims very clearly and even every time I've seen you misunderstand something I've been kind enough to point out exactly what it was you misunderstood.That's my job as a debater because you know, if I say you're wrong then the burden of proof's on me to show that. You on the other hand have been laying casual claims out like "lol I already countered this nonsense" or "lol you cant even understand what happened on that panel nice going bro" without even showing what I apparently misunderstood every 5 seconds.

I've never once said it was instant, just when Itachi is caught at that instant he's done for. So same thing I guess given you've got no evidence proving Itachi's legs move faster than Jiraiya can make 2 seals.Ironically enough the very post you quoted was telling about how you're dodging my main points, and I still don't have an answer to your logic of how Itachi can magically see in the future to know he's gonna use it before he even begins and they start fighting at the same exact time. But even then, I'm nice enough to consider the points if he doesn't get negged instantly by Yomi Numa(which he does) since I know Jiraiya wins so easily.

Second off, I'm going to put my original posts inside your quotes from now on so that you can't try to use baseless one liner "lol no" or "oh i already countered this" anymore as an attempt at a valid response. Also, anything more relevant or important will be in bigger sized text probably.

The time frame between 2 and 3 is virtually non existent. Itachi is not fast enough to be able to jump into the air during the speed it takes from the first and second handsign to complete, regardless of what he sees coming.

@bold: Not really. Itachi's speed feats allow him to do so regardless, speed feats I've already posted. Then there's also the fact that the swamp has to appear after the hand signs have been used, giving him even more time to evade. Not to mention he'll be able to see the hand signs before Jiraiya's even made the first one, given how Sharingan works. He'll see Jiraiya move, but the Sharingan will show him about to make the first hand sign, then he can evade.

No, your speed feats don't prove anything at all relating to that because the real proof you require doesn't exist, on account that it is common sense. Hands move much faster than legs, it doesn't matter who you are unless there's direct evidence contradicting it in Itachi's case which there obviously isn't.

Itachi can see 98479347 years into the future and it means literally nothing when his body is not physically fast enough to jump before Jiraiya makes 2 seals, end of story.

I can apply your shitty argumentation to almost any opponent, and they wouldn't be able to evade because you think Jiraiya's hand seal speed and the formation of Yomi Numa is nigh instant, which is nonsense.

If you weren't straight up ignoring almost everything I post you would realize I even gave evidence to support the exact opposite. (here's where you would baselessly move onto the next paragraph with an empty counter, while I however support my claim and give proof to where I actually gave said evidence)

As they start the fight at the same time, Itachi won't be able to accurately read what he's about to do and then decide to jump, do it successfully then avoid before it becomes GG.

Which is based on? Starting the fight at the same time doesn't change anything. You know you make a lot of claims, but that's it. All you do is claim, you don't prove.

It's based on common sense and the fact both characters start at the same time. It does change that Itachi isn't seeing in the future and he must move at the exact time Jiraiya is also able to mov. Add that onto the part where jumping takes far longer than moving your hands slightly and there you go it's GG

You're doing some hardcore projecting in regards to providing support for claims, your response to all of my backed up points is pretty lackluster and it has disappointed me immensely

Itachi wouldn't be able to jump to avoid it if Itachi began jumping the instant the fight began, moving your hands into position takes far less time than jumping,

No, it really doesn't. Making two hand signs is not faster than jumping. Jumping to the target location? Of course, but just jumping? Uh, no.

Again great job actually supporting that with proof. You have jumped before in your lifetime, right? And you have seen ninjas create dozens of handsigns in a blur right? And you have knowledge that in order to jump you have to bend your knees right? You have knowledge that Jiraiya's move takes literally 2 handsigns right? You have knowledge that Itachi has to take into account what handsign Jiraiya is making first then deduce which jutsu he's using then deduce the knowledge that he has to bend his legs then propel himself right? Well there you have it, saying uh no when you're getting utterly destroyed and can't back up anything you're saying is kinda ironic.

and this assumes Itachi gets prep time and knowledge beforehand and still tries to jump. Itachi jumping<<<<Jiraiya moving his hands in speed, it's literally common sense try jumping then try moving your hands and you'll see.

Prep time is irrelevant, not sure why you keep mentioning nonsense like prep time, and head starts. Knowledge was already granted in the OP.

Oh ok, Jiraiya also has advance knowledge of every move Itachi makes too.

Try jumping, and then try making Yomi Numa's hand signs. The latter is clearly faster than the former.

Exactly man, bravo you finally understood what it means. GG Itachi. I know you're too stubborn to admit that all of your points have been completely made void now, but at least you know deep down and indirectly admit it like this.

If we were measuring jumping from one point to another's speed vs. making hand signs speed, then you'd have a point, but we aren't, so you don't. It's irrelevant how fast it takes Itachi to get to his next position, because Yomi Numa is evaded the moment Itachi is off the ground.

You can reach airtime faster than it takes to move your hands? Tsk tsk tsk well that's anecdotal, literally everyone else seems to be different in part of common sense and the laws of physics

And to say Itachi will be able to activate his magic KidGamer's Sharingan, then read what he thinks Jiraiya is about to do despite the fact it's being activated at the same time then use it? Completely ridiculous logic, he can't freeze time when he's reading someone's hand seals, and if he could his body's not physically fast enough.

Sharingan activates in literally an instant. Let's not start grasping at straws here.

See when I say something is nigh instant then back it up with panels and proof you expect me to just allow you to get away with saying sharingan activates literally instantly lol? Anyway I'm nice so I'll allow it, too bad Itachi's too slow to move his body regardless of how fast his sharingan activates. Also love how you ignored the main point in that Itachi won't be able to read what Jiraiya is doing and decide to move before he does it,yet again.

Human Path has a slower air time than Itachi does now? Great, now Itachi is so godlike he can literally control the speed at which he falls and move around in air at will. Sorry if Itachi "evades" Yomi Numa as you're claiming, he's gonna have to land eventually and he's going to land on Yomi Numa.

You love being a strawman don't you? Never stated this.

I've already explained why the underlined isn't happening. Repeating it isn't going to make it any less ridiculous. If Itachi is on the ground, Jiraiya will make Yomi Numa on the ground, if Itachi evades, he's elsewhere, so he's not hit. Then Jiraiya has to make another swamp, which only gives Itachi more time to evade.

No, you haven't. You're blatantly ignoring the fact Jiraiya is capable of using it before Itachi touches the ground and then assume he's able to just jump away easily because you purposely treat these claims as using it after he's already on the ground since you know you're wrong and he has no response to it.

Still I read your entire post and you have not given a single logical explanation to how Itachi will manage to avoid a Yomi Numa created under him as he's falling into it. In fact, you've outright admitted to me that Itachi has no way to alter his trajectory in midair and thus would fall straight into it given this scenario. Stop avoiding the subject this is one of the major points of my posts, and you've been dodging around it on purpose tackling only extremely minor points crying "bawww strawman".

Of course, this is all disregarding the completely insane idea that Itachi will last more than a couple seconds given he can't even jump to avoid it...but still.

Ignoring the fact that he was stuck inside an infinite repeated loop in Izanami where the same thing happens over and over, of course dream Itachi knows what he's about to do he's in his subconscious.

Except it's not Itachi's subconscious, it's Kabuto's. Not to mention Kabuto stated why his jutsu was read and preempted, and it's not because of Izanami. Stop grasping at straws buddy.

Precisely why it works even less. You admitted why it's invalid right there, if it was all in Itachi's mind you'd have a point as he knows what his abilities are capable of. Lol grasping at straws you're the one trying to use feats that didn't even really happen as evidence that Itachi can do some god tier magic shit

Izanami is also activated by sharingan hmm? And that was before Kabuto knew it was a loop, seriously just read the manga. Your own scan disproves it

Never said he'll move before Jiraiya gets a chance. I said he'll move before Yomi Numa is completed. I don't know how many times you'll regurgitate this nonsense and how many times I'll have to correct you before you get it.

Well considering the only thing you've said on the matter is hurr Itachi reacts and jumps instantly with no proof, and I've given my logic and rational support + direct evidence to how it's possible, looks like you're gonna have to keep trying forever or until you realize you're wrong.

Dude wtf? It's two handsigns, you're making it seem like it takes an hour of prep time.

2 hand signs is still time needed. Suiryudan was only ONE hand sign. Didn't stop Itachi from seeing that coming, and putting Kabuto's ass on the ground before the latter could even use the jutsu, which only took one hand sign.

No, Kabuto only USED that sign and he was thinking it in his head. Within the 3 panels he began making the jutsu is how long it took for him and then Irrelevant-Not-Real-Evidence-Mind-Itachi used his own suiton. Kabuto didn't even fully activate the jutsu while Jiraiya's however was fully formed and activated in the span of 1 panel.

You as a human being could jump 2 ft in the air AKA human jumping height and still perform the signs for 4 Yomi Numa while you're falling.

Which means nothing, since I never said jumping from point A to point B is faster than making Yomi Numa's hand signs, I said that jumping period, is faster than Yomi Numa's hand signs.

Neither did I so watch your strawmans. At least you admit that while Itachi's in the air he has nowhere to go but down. Deep down into the underworld in fact as he gets GGd by Jiraiya no diff.

Jiraiya literally watches where Itachi's about to land and then uses it again when he touches ground.

Except by the time Jiraiya has created his first swamp, Itachi will be on the ground, ready to evade Jiraiya's next attack.

Another claim without any basis, please support it. Nothing suggests Jiraiya can't activate Yomi Numa when Itachi is in midair and nothing suggests Itachi can avoid.

It's impossible to instantly jump away regardless of if he sees it coming or not, or float like Onoki and you know that damn well.

If he's not on the ground when Jiraiya uses it? Yes, it's impossible. But he will be, so it's not.

Looooool you just admitted straight up that Itachi is screwed. You just admitted 1 paragraph above this that you can easily make more Yomi Numa handsigns in the span it takes someone to fall, you're blatantly contradicting yourself now, so there you have it.

To your admission-
Jiraiya can easily make enough handsigns to make multiple yomi numa in the time Itachi is on the ground falling
Itachi would undoubtedly be caught if Jiraiya activated yomi numa while Itachi was midair.
If you call this out as a strawman or some bullsht, your posts are literally right here above this, so you lose.

This is how you know I'm right and you're wrong, you're contradicting your own posts because you're backed into a corner and can't admit Jiraiya wins easy, you're wrong because you're making sht up that doesn't make sense it's how you catch a liar. Meanwhile my posts have stayed the same and consistent all throughout and if anything gotten stronger by destroying your false claims or lack thereof, because they are truthful and supported by manga facts. Ready for you to admit defeat any time.

It's literally impossible for Itachi to see it coming before it's used considering they start the match at the same time and Itachi can't reverse time using his sharingan.

Doesn't need to reverse time. Sharingan sees movements before they happen. Them starting the match at the same time doesn't change the fact that when Jiraiya is about to make his hand signs, Itachi will see them before Jiraiya even completes them.

Yes, SEES. Not reacts. There is a huge difference, all you've said is "oh Itachi sees Jiraiya makes the handsigns before he makes them...and thus that means he can automatically dodge it somehow despite there being no evidence for this."

As proven by the still uncountered Bee vs Sasuke points, and pretty much any other spot a sharingan user initiated in a battle, just because you can see something doesn't give you a free pass to be able to actually react to that thing. The point of them starting at the same time is made because Itachi is able to future-see then attempt to dodge at the same exact point Jiraiya actually makes those signs regardless if Itachi can see them or not and then has to choose to dodge and then actually attempt it.

Except he can't do that. Yomi Numa takes 2 hand signs, and then the ground starts to become mud. Itachi has the opportunity to evade at any point before that, and any point after the match has started. It's not gonna go like:

-Match Start

-Yomi Numa

-Itachi gets sunk.

I suggest you get that nonsense out of your head.

Unfortunately to your own admission moving those hands into position takes far less time than putting the force in your legs to jump, so until you can prove otherwise I have to break the news to you that it does indeed go that way.

Is there a problem with that? I kept it short and sweet and it's still 100% valid, Yomi Numa solos. And no I didn't say instant swamp GG, I said nigh instant swamp GG there's a difference, but not a difference that it makes for Itachi who's too slow to jump before Jiraiya moves his hands a little bit.

When you've given no evidence for Yomi Numa's speed, yes, it's an issue. 100% valid means just about shit when it's not backed by manga scans.

But I read the scans, and you probably read them albeit outright reject them since they don't coincide with your extremely biased opinion on who think wins and refuse to admit actually loses. So it's all on you if you want to stop massively exaggerating all of Itachi's displays(note I'm not being condescending when it would fit if I called you a massive Itachi wanker at this point), denying what Kishi wrote on panel as 100% proven evidence to find out for yourself who really wins.

The instant it makes contact with you, is the instant you're screwed. It doesn't matter if it took 5 hours to pull you under which it clearly doesn't, if you're in Human Path's situation and you become a useless sitting duck because you're immobilized.

If it makes contact with you, which it won't for Itachi.

LOL because you said so of course. Absolutely no support for that ridiculous claim of course why am I not surprised.

You're so far backed into a corner you're contradicting yourself in the same sentence lol. If they move at the exact same time, then Itachi has to be able to have the speed to propel himself into the air with a jump before Jiraiya can move his hands, which he cannot. It's that simple.

Except I'm not, just your poor reading comprehension at work. Moving before Yomi Numa is cast=/=Moving before Jiraiya himself can move at all. Moving before Yomi Numa is cast=Moving before Jiraiya can complete the hand signs.

The time between Jiraiya being able to move and finishing those handsigns is far less than the time it takes for Itachi to see that, know what's coming and then choose and successfully ascend into the air(and prove himself as the one true god). End of discussion, it's common sense stop being so oblivious and think rationally for once. Itachi gets sunk.

No, he only has to jump before Jiraiya makes both hand signs, not before he can move his hands in general.

Luckily that's extremely easy and there is virtually no time in between which you already admitted Itachi couldn't move within said time frame.

Just so you know for sure that you're wrong, as seen, as seen here Kabuto even sees Itachi use the move and counter it with a suiton in the same exact situation. If what you said held any water(lolol) whatsoever then Itachi would always be 1 step ahead.

Um, no. Itachi used Katon, Kabuto used Suiton. Itachi attacked first, and Kabuto saw the attack and countered. Sharingan pre cog doesn't work if your opponent isn't doing anything, obviously. And Kabuto was making no movement until after Itachi had fired his attack.

The point of this was to prove that the next display in which Irrelevant-Not-Real-Evidence-Mind-Itachi already knew exactly what he was going to do before he did it because it already happened before, and Kabuto knew at that time it was going to be a katon. Just read the manga man are you deluding yourself that much?

I want to know if you legitimately believe the crap you're spouting at this point, or you really do realize Jiraiya undoubtedly wins and are just denying it with every fiber of your being trying to deny manga proof just so you don't have to admit my proof obliterated your empty claims neg diff.

I was nice enough to not even talk about the scan you sent because it would have made your argument look worse. That was in Izanami actually, read the page before that and Kabuto knew from loop experience that Itachi was going to use a katon so he changed his mind accordingly. Seriously don't be so biased and look at that one panel, look at hte surrounding panels and context it isn't that hard, you keep messing up this way it tells me you don't have as good a grasp on the manga as you've claimed, definitely not enough to give decent support for Itachi(as therei sn't any because he clearly loses).

1. You still haven't shown me why the Izanami scenario is invalid. "Hurr durr it's a dream" isn't a counter argument.

And saying I haven't explained it in direct response to the post where I explained it very clearly isn't much of one either. That's LITERALLY just contradiction. "You're wrong" "No I'm not, because X Y and Z" "yes you are idiot" is also not a valid counterargument and it's a terrible one at that, just saying you're wrong doesn't actually prove the opponent wrong just so you know.

2. What Kabuto thought Itachi was going to do doesn't mean shit. He thought Itachi was going to use a Katon, based on the loop, but Itachi read his intentions with Sharingan and countered with the same jutsu Kabuto was about to use, by coping his hand sign and attacking all before Kabuto could attack himself, despite him being the one who started first.

And Itachi is part of Kabuto's mind and obviously would know this and kept the loop maintained because of that. There are words on the pages you know, other than the 1 panel that only when taken completely out of context sounds like it supports your point. It might do you good to read them and not reject them on purpose since they prove you wrong.

This is ridiculous, you're under the impression there is a large amount of time when "Jiraiya is still making handsigns" where Itachi gets a chance to jump. Move your hand then move it in another position right after, you know those parts in the manga where their hands are a blur because they're doing a shitton of handsigns really fast? This only takes 2, Itachi cannot jump before that I don't give a flying fadoodle how many handsigns he can see in advance if they start the fight at the same time. what about this do you not understand it is not a difficult concept.

You keep stating this, but guess what? I don't care for your opinion.

Nor facts, and common sense, it seems like

Yes, it's a blur when they use their hand signs, but Ninja have been perceived as nothing but blurs by simply moving.

Uh huh, and no shinobi in the entire manga ever would be able to jump in the air without first bending their legs as it is common sense. Same argument you've been using: Blur when moving? Yeah that's one thing but not before they even begin to move.

Sasuke was able to interrupt Itachi's hand signs with a Shuriken Attack. Hand signs being hand movements doesn't automatically mean that it'll always out speed someone's movement,

Precisely, there you go helped me prove your own points wrong yet again. And yeah note how you said hand signs plural, because Itachi was making a shitton of them and Jiraiya's are more akin to literall moving your hands in a position quickly then boom it's done.

especially since this is more than one hand sign we are talking about. I could use the same logic and come to the conclusion that people like Ay, KCM Naruto, and Juubito can't evade Yomi Numa because "hand signs>>>>>>>>jump in speed" which isn't even correct in itself.

Those characters actually have various other ways of countering it besides speed though, Itachi has neither. But I'm not going to prove your own argument for you, that's your job, although it'd be cool if you tried to make that conclusion it only brings you one step closer to realizing the truth.

Itachi read Kabuto's movements. His Jutsu only took one hand sign, yet Itachi still beat him to the punch, and used and successfully landed the jutsu all before Kabuto could make one hand sign and initiate his jutsu. Same shit happens here, except Itachi jumps instead of countering.

Are you serious just go back to part 1 or something, this is getting boring so let me help you a little. There are so many times Itachi fought in this series and he has sharingan activated in all of them you don't need to stick to 1 horribly invalid mind-feat that only appeared recently. Are you trying to say there's no proof Itachi can react to anything Jiraiya has ever done pre chapter 580?

Anyway to counter the actual point, assuming of course that it is valid which that notion in general is just retarded- Considering you blatantly ignored every other event in the very scan you posted attempting to support your point let me repost it to show you:

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Even in the 2 panels before this he was still holding his hands in the same position there weren't even any motion marks, and it's clear this jutsu takes build up as evidenced by the scan I posted. Again, Yomi Numa's handseal was made and the swamp was completely formed in thousands of times the width and depth of Itachi in the timespan of 1 panel. The characters suspended in midair

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so stop your bullshit. You're wrong, deal with it.

Because he had seen him use it again and again and again and again and again.

Nope. Kabuto stated why, Sharingan. Nice try though.

That's weird, this here manga I was just reading says Izanami is a sharingan dojutsu...!

He can't, plus even if the Kabuto feat was real he was given time in advance to predict his move, Kabuto didn't act at the exact same time Itachi's given a chance to even activate his sharingan. But it's a BS feat either way so I don't have to go there, since I'm nice I did.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. As for the rest, irrelevant.

Yeah maybe deemed irrelevant by you based on nothing since you can't counter it, sure

Sharingan's activation is literally instant. Jiraiya won't even be making hand signs by the time Sharingan is activated. Stop grasping at straws.

Another completely baseless claim.

>says sharingan is literally instant
>absolutely no proof for that whatsoever

and I'm grasping at straws

According to your logic the instant the fight starts is when Itachi starts using his sharingan and predicts his move in the very short time it takes Jiraiya to make the 2nd handsign

-Jiraiya starts to make hand signs.

-Itachi will see him make the first and the second hand sign before he even makes them.

Do you see how those 2 points directly contradict each other?

-Itachi will evade.

Support this utterly baseless claim. Itachi cannot avoid it just because he can see it coming and still you have given not one miniscule amount of evidence he'd be able to do such a thing.

Number of panels is NOT a measurement of time. So get that shit out of here.

You daft son? There are very clearly ways to tell how much time passed in a manga, don't be retarded. Read the surrounding panels and compare them with each other, sorry that it proves you wrong but it does so deal with it. Read the panel Jiraiya makes the handsign then read the panel after, the entire swamps formed but Jiraiya hardly moved. Same exact thing when he was fighting the paths, Human went all the way in within a second, so try again.

The rest is irrelevant since Itachi will be gone before the swamp appears under his feet. It forming under a giant snake and ensnaring it really isn't a feat you should be mentioning here, not when catching an immobile snake is barely a feat.

LOL IMMOBILE and this guy tries to say he can comprehend what happens in the manga. How many times have you actually look at the pages around when Jiraiya used Yomi Numa?

Anyway more basic disregarding every valid thing my post said as "irrelevant" when it's really not just because you can't respond

I don't like empty, baseless claims.

But you make them all the time so that's pretty weird that you would say that.

Ok get up and do a physical exercise for me, try and jump in the air then try and move your hands in 2 positions quickly, which is faster. Unless there's some weird proof that proves character's leg speeds are faster than their hand seal speed...

I would do that exercise....if it made sense. That only measures the amount of time it takes for you to fall back down to the ground vs. the amount of time it takes you to measure hand signs. The thing you should be comparing is how fast you can actually jump, not how fast it takes you to get to where you are jumping, cause once Itachi's jumped, Yomi Numa is evaded.

No, it measures the amount of time it takes for you to start on the ground then exit the ground. You can still move your hands far faster than it takes, and we are human beings, not shinobi who make a shitton of handsigns as a blur within seconds.

Bold is reason enough for me to not take you seriously.

Baseless dismissal of valid claims because you can't refute them account #892379273

LOL wut? You must be delusional or mixing up what I'm saying(or far too stubborn to consider opposing viewpoints before dismissing them no matter how obvious). That's one of the most fallacious things I've ever seen-- You missed an entire world of possibilities just assuming Itachi gets to land for free. Let me fill in the blank for you. Itachi jumps, then falls, then BEFORE he lands Yomi Numa gg.

Uh...no.

This is by far your most depressing reply in the entire debate so far. Dude, "uh...no" is NOT a valid response to one of the major points in my post. It answers literally nothing and refutes literally nothing of value. There is nothing there, it has no substance at all. How would you feel if I replied to everything you said with "lol no" as an utterly baseless response then when you asked where my proof was I just said "oh I already gave it, reread my posts 2blindedfanboy4me"?

"Jiraiya tries to use it again, then he evades again" right after just assuming Itachi lands lol...I cant believe this all this blatant disregard for facts and common sense after what's I've emphasized and has been discussed all this time. Step up your game man I've been kinda ok with your posts up to this point, but now comes the part you're really pushed into a corner and stat saying all this nonsensical desperate babble. Gotta realize when it's over man.

No reason why he won't land.

Other than the fact Jiraiya just put a Yomi Numa under him and he has no choice but to fall into it? Yeah you're right, there's no reason he won't land...right into Yomi Numa.

Seriously, yet another one liner response that is COMPLETELY empty and has no substance in reply to my fully supported and valid post.

The most hard hitting major points of my post that definitely prove you wrong are passed off like this in a couple words easy, then you spend all of your time trying to respond to minor irrelevant stuff that doesn't even matter. But you can't just get away with that, sorry not today.

Furthermore that posts the most blatantly baseless post ever, just "yep Itachi evades again gg, no explanation as to how if Jiraiya uses it right before he lands...he just does." You avoided the subject throughout this entire post and you gave absolutely no logical explanation how in the hell he plans to avoid the one he's falling right towards at all lol.

Except he can't. He uses his first Yomi Numa, Itachi evades it, lands on the ground, and then Jiraiya has to make the hand signs for

STOP RIGHT THERE. You missed a huge point in your post, this is another fault in your logic. You assume that this is black and white and that is how things must go in that exact order, but you fail to entertain the thought that other things can possibly happen in between those examples.

Let me fix your post with how it should look, assuming Itachi can even evade the first one for the point of proving you wrong again:
He uses his first Yomi Numa, Itachi evades it, as he cannot land on the ground for free and I've constantly avoided the subject until now, Jiraiya activates a 2nd yomi numa in between now and him landinglands on the ground, and then Jiraiya gets sucked in by yomi numa.
The problem with your logic is that, along ith teh above few paragraphs that you rejected completely and posted literally 2 words in response to, you are ignoring the fact Jiraiya can make those handsings while Itachi is midair and there is nothing he can do about it. Stop assuming he casually lands before Jiraiya can do anything and then is able to jump again, it's not happening, read my posts.

This is what you aren't understanding. You seem to think that the moment Jiraiya moves his hand, Yomi Numa is going to "nigh instantly" (No proof for this either) appear on the ground, wall or ceiling, any place of Jiraiya's choosing, disregarding the fact that he needs to make hand signs after he's already used the first jutsu.

Unfortunately, to your admission on multiple occasions when attempting to refute the "jump" logic, you've admitted that Jiraiya can easily make multiple yomi numa handsigns in the span it takes from a jumping person to land. You've ALSO admitted Itachi has no way of altering his trajectory while he's already in midair. You also admitted it'd be impossible for Itachi to avoid it once it touches him even slightly and he'll begin to get sucked under. So there you go, you lose.
Proof you've done all of these things:

Spoiler

If he's not on the ground when Jiraiya uses it? Yes, it's impossible.
Try jumping, and then try making Yomi Numa's hand signs. The latter is clearly faster than the former. If we were measuring jumping from one point to another's speed vs. making hand signs speed, then you'd have a point
Which means nothing, since I never said jumping from point A to point B is faster than making Yomi Numa's hand signs, I said that jumping period, is faster than Yomi Numa's hand signs

and so on and so forth, and this was all from your most recent post.

Such contradicting claims could only come from someone who's clearly wrong and doesn't even knwo what's true anymore, but now that all of your claims have been utterly annihilated and proven to only support mine, and Itachi has no way to avoid getting caught as admitted by you, it's pretty much over.

I know you have a little bit of trouble reading the words on the pages but seriously read the surrounding ones including the link I sent. Your own scan proves your point wrong. The same situation happened dozens of times, that was the entire point of the chapter emphasizing Kabuto can't win because everything he does has already been recorded and put on loop to put him back in the same situation. Weird-Kabuto-mind-Itachi doesn't have a mind of his own, and if he did it's only what Kabuto's perception of him is and in no way reflects the real Itachi's actions, which, if you don't remember even though I already linked it, was Kabuto countering the incoming jutsu. In fact he already did it before that too.

It being apart of Izanami's loop isn't relevant. Kabuto has already stated why he was countered, and it's not this made up explanation you are trying to stick with. It's because of the Sharingan. If you want to disregard Kabuto's words, you might as well concede this point.

Yeah considering it's pretty irrelevant to my main point and has nothing to do with why Jiraiya utterly stomps such as Itachi having no way to avoid Yomi Numa give scenarios above or has no way of freeing himself ,or to your own admission openly detaches susano'o from himself etc, then I might as well so you stop trying to focus on it.

Manga statements>Fan's opinion.

Glad to see you're starting to realize that, you come closer to admitting the truth with each post.

Anyway confirmed manga fact>a character in the manga's opinion on a situation too and the fact of the matter is it was all happening within Kabuto's mind. But if you want to keep arguing over this it'll only further nail in your coffin

And yes it does because it's in Kabuto's subconscious loool I can't believe you're actually trying to use that to prove Itachi can see Jiraiya's handsigns in the future even though they're both allowed to move at the same time.

And you've given me no reason why the bold cheapens the feat...no valid reason of course.

And you've just used automatic contradiction again without actually addressing the paragraph. Itachi and Kabuto share hte same mind and have absolute full knowledge on each other? Absolutely nothing suggests Itachi would react in that same way outside the genjutsu, and if anything Kabuto is far smarter than Itachi so what Kabuto thought of in his mind made him more impressive.

You're literally using a dream as evidence. I had a dream last night that you admitted Jiraiya won no diff in person, but you were just too butthurt to admit that you were wrong on the forum. Hey I guess maybe your point does have some merit! You're right I concede, Kabuto clearly knows enough about Itachi to copy his every action in his mind, and he wasn't given pre-set actions by Izanami to maintain the loop, like the manga directly said, or anything.

Other than the fact it's outright impossible for him to see Jiraiya make the sign, process what jutsu he's using hten immediately bend his legs, and propel him up to jump all in the time it takes for Jiraiya to move his fingers?

Uh, no, it's not. Not when Itachi was able to hit Kabuto with his Water Dragon before the latter even managed to cast his own, despite Kabuto being the one who started to cast it first, not to mention it has one hand sign, not two. You keep saying "hurr durr it's impossible" with nothing but your opinion behind it.

Ok no need to bother repeating myself, I showed water dragon taking 4+ panels and Kabuto charging it and thinking it in his head meanwhile that's still a mind feat and Jiraiya's jutsu happens far faster than either as evidenced by its 1 panel appearance which I explained somewhere above.

^A lot more concise and solid of an ACTUAL counter than "lol I already countered this" considering I ended up repeating myself anyway. If I hadn't you'd be saying some sht like "lol no u didnt" and it'd go back and forth like what happens when you baselessly claim that you already countered something you clearly didn't. This is what you're supposed to do as a debater or else you're only proving further how much of a losing position you're in.

Alright, keep telling yourself that and blatantly ignoring key points such as "as I know Itachi has never been able to fly in the manga, he's not Onoki and has to land eventually" and "ou haven't given any support that Itachi would be able to blink because Jiraiya forms them faster. He's not Mifune, you're avoiding the subject" which is kind of ironic but anyway moving on.

-Never said he can fly.

-Never implied he'd need to fly.

-Never implied he's Mifune or would need to be Mifune.

Great, even more evidence to add to that "final nail in the coffin" spoiler where you openly reinforce and admit all of the claims I'm making that prove Jiraiya shits on Itachi.

Again intentionally lying about scans, either that or you misunderstood them. That attack was an extremely straightforward and linear attack so Sasuke was able to deflect it far more easily that way. It's how sharingan has always worked.

Your point? The attack that hit him and the attack he evaded are the same thing, so it doesn't matter regardless. Not to mention that doesn't change the fact he was able to react to his speed.

If sharingan shows the actions in the future before they happen, and one person's moving really fast but in a straight line it's extremely easy to avoid, it's how the sharingan works reread part 1 if you need to. If the opponent is much faster than you it's still easy to avoid a linear attack, it's once they start moving in other directions and impaling Sasuke with non linear swords because he's too slow to react that it's a different story.

But wait, that's strange? During actual combat in a taijutsu clash, somehow he lost the exchange...Why would this happen if Sasuke has "already shown" to be able to react to Bee's speed? Yeah bro he clearly allowed himself to get stabbed by Bee's swords, his sharingan let him react if he wanted to but he planned to get stabbed all along. Flawless logic.

He lost the exchange because of B's superior and unorthodox sword skills, not because B was too fast for him. Point is irrelevant.. Having Sharingan isn't going to change the fact that being inferior in an area means you'll lose in said area.

Exactly, proof that just seeing the attacks before they happen doesn't give you an ultimate power that allows you to avoid it automatically no matter what. This is all I was trying to prove with the Sasuke scans so seeing as you admitted it, we're good here.

Still had it activated so your point is moot, if sharingan was godly future sight powers as you claim then he would have seen Bee get up and attempt to attack before he actually moved, in fact you even claimed he can react to Bee's speed before. No idea why you'd admit that when it only reinforces my argument and harms yours but alright

Not if he's taken by surprise, and not putting all his attention on Killer B. Something Itachi won't be doing to Jiraiya. Keep on with the invalid comparisons though.

Also, he's shown to react to B's speed before. That doesn't reinforce your argument, that only shows he got hit because of factors other than "Sharingan failed" or "He's too slow" not when Sharingan is the reason he evaded to begin with.

He shouldn't have to, if he can see motion before it happens it doesn't matter, the point of sharingan is he shouldn't have been taken by surprise since it clearly sees Bee before he moves as you're claiming.

And yeah he only evaded thanks to sharingan but he also got impaled despite of sharingan, this panel isn't too relevant anymore considering it was only the most flashy and I posted the rest of the exchange after that. Anyway you conceded what I intended to show with those scans so no point going on about it

Meanwhile their actual taijutsu bout that isn't a linear straightforward dash in which Sasuke was rekt in, was ignored by you.

Irrelevant. Being able to keep up with his speed=/=Being able to best him in Kenjutsu. His unorthodox movements have little to do with his speed anyway. You can keep denying manga feats though.

You're literally supporting my argument LOL glad to see that his body wasn't fast enough to trump him in swordplay despite his eyes seeing all of it before it happened.

Itachi gets a headstart in the match? They both start moving at the exact same time, until you can prove Itachi bends his knees and jump before Jiraiya moves his hands a little then he gets swallowed by the undeworld neg diff.

Pretty much a repeat of the same argument you've used throughout the whole thread. Yomi Numa one shots, prove me wrong.

And you haven't even come close, so good job. Aaaand that was a strawman but I'll let it slide, you need the advantage of incorrect lines of logic to not get completely obliterated by the first post.

Also, yet again a complete disregard for the actual content I provided in the post. Again just straight contradiction with no substance, "lol you said the same thing already" therefore it's wrong? Just saying I said it before, or just saying that it's wrong does not make it wrong you have to actually support that instead of empty insults.

Your fallacious attempts at counters are only getting worse, plus I put my "substance" within your quotes so it's impossible to like about sht like this anymore

Both instances the swamp wasn't big enough to sink them, not that Jiraiya needs to make one big enough to sink Itachi as anything up to the waist is much more than enough proven by Human path's uselessness.

And how does this change the fact that you've failed to prove that Yomi Numa submerges the target instantly?

Because I never said it did? For someone who calls out fake strawmans all the time you sure make a lot of real ones.

To your own admission the swamp's intention is to fully submerge the target. No idea why you're trying to argue against that, Jiraiya literally said "Damn it won't even sink all the way in such a small swamp" and to quote you on the topic of it fully submerging the target, "Obviously."

Except I'm not. I only told you to learn what the word means before using it. You claimed his targets were submerged, they were not. Did I say that it can't submerge its targets? No. I told you to prove that it'll submerge Itachi instantly.

No, they WERE submerged, just not FULLY submerged. Stop arguing semantics though, it's irrelevant and only a bigger sign you've lost the argument and are finding crap to pick at in desperation since you're clearly wrong.

lol, unless Itachi plans on holding his hands up in the air over his head while he sinks pretty sure they're generally around the waist level, and it sunk Human up to his chest despite the end result be him standing pretty upright in the swamp.

It sunk Human Path that deep because Human Path was already kneeling when he was caught, has nothing to do with a target who is still standing up straight. And nothing stops him from keeping his hands above the swamp while he's still above.

That's fine, my other posts explained how ridiculous it would to have to hold your hands up to avoid them beign swalled, be even if Itachi is up to his waist he's ****ed. Plus you know, in part 1 before power inflation it casually sunk a snake halfway who's thousands of times wider and deeper than Itachi, and in part 2 it was only used for Human and never required to pull him deeper. Plus it was on a ceiling.

You know how quicksand works right? Even the real world has it and if your arms were held above your waist while your chest is under you'd have a lot of trouble making use of them. People die from quicksand because of suffocation since it surrounds their chest and they cant breathe, what is Itachi even going to do with his arms if he had them? He's a sitting duck, best he can do is flail them around until he dies anyway.

Well no shit if he's caught that deep it's over, but the thing is, he won't be caught that deep before he can do something about it.

Great, more evidence to add to your final nail in the coffin spoiler. Admittance that if he is caught that deep it's gg, plus in this recent post I've newly given proof for how fast it sinks people in the manner of looking at motion in surrounding scans making it even more GG.

Then there's the part where you've failed in any way to provide proof that he won't be caught that deep and I've destroyed your attempts to prove otherwise. Sitting in a pretty good position as a Jiraiya supporter right now.

This is all operating on the assumption it doesn't fully submerge him(because Jiraiya doesn't need to, but on account of the fact it easily sunk a massive snake in 1 panel in such a small swamp he will), or the insane idea his hands won't get pulled in in the first place.

And you've still failed to prove that he'll be submerged before he can do anything about it.

Actually, the burden of proof on you to show that he CAN do something about it. I've given proof that he'll be sucked in within moments in Human's case if not nigh instantly like the snake's case, all you've tried to provide were the lololkaton or some shit arguments, once it connects with him it's over.

You've failed to prove that it submerges it's target completely in a matter of seconds. All I'm seeing is Yomi Numa GG. Not a real argument.

And as of the VERY SENTENCE before this one, you also admitted if it even gets up to his chest let alone fully submerge him that it's GG. Even more evidence to go into the KG coffin spoiler folder.

Jeez man chill with the contradictions at least wait a few paragraphs before mixing yourself up lol it's not helping your argument to be this wrong so fast.

Other than the fact it's chakra infused earthly magical mud from the underworld that fully submerges the target and immobilizes them so they can't move their body?

So basically you have nothing? Katon and Fuuton still work like they do in real life. Suiton and Katon still work like they do in real life. You are going to need proof that it being chakra infused with change those properties.

In fact, one of the things you outright removed from my post since it was too logical and supported for you to counter, was the fact that Itachi has only on panel been shown to make massive fireballs and sht. Even if what you said about katons magically hardening the swamp WAS true, he has literally no way of hardening it in an effective way without burning himself alive or assume Jiraiya sits on his ass and watches him do that instead of killing him.

Then there's the fact that he's hardening it and thus to your admission if it got up to his chest he wouldn't be able to breathe and would suffocate a la quicksand, and the fact that with supported evidence he will only have a second at best to do that and then it's up to his waist, at the VERY least giving you a massive, massive benefit of the doubt just so you stand a chance here. Plus then, after it's hardened he has to find some logical way of breaking him out before Jiraiya just kills defenseless Itachi outright , suffocates, or burns to death since he's a katon user, not a multi dimension possibilities firebender.

You haven't given me any logical way Itachi plans to use katon on this LOOL, so you're sayig he'll be trapped above his waist, his arms are gonna be all awkward above him then he can form katon signs then burn the very swamp he's been trapped in even though it's 1 ft close to his mouth, to harden it assuming he doesn't get burned alive becauseo f that. Pure genius. On top of that if the swamp hardens then it's like being surrounded by concrete, I hope burned-alive Itachi remembered to take a deep breath before he hardened it(Literally the exact opposite of how to use a katon) because if not he won't be able to breathe.

Orrrr...he does this all BEFORE he's submerged that deep, not after, which nullifies the rest of the nonsense in your post.

Yet again another crap one liner to a VERY relevant and main point of my post since you can't counter it. I notice you spend all your actual effort countering the sht that doesn't even matter then try to get away with running from these things without countering...this including Itachi's inability to make small katons or burn a VERY precise area just around his body with absolutely no logical method for him actually doing so.

NO SUBSTANCE at all in your reply. Any support at all he can do that when it sinks him in a couple seconds at very best, and basically an instant at the worst?

There's also the fact he can just use Amaterasu instead.

LOOLOLOLOL did you really just say this? Adding another nail in the coffin even though this isn't even relevant to what the coffin spoiler proves.

Itachi doesn't have enton. He has amaterasu. Amaterasu is a shitton hotter than regular katon, and you know what it does right? It spreads. Are you literally blind when you're coming up with these possibilities? Please open up Paint and draw me an example of how you expect Itachi to do any of this katon stuff or amaterasu stuff that you're claiming. I don't care if it's stick figures or anything, just do it to give me an idea. I have very much trouble believing anyone would come up with such a ridiculous logic so I must be missing something. There's NO WAY to amaterasu the swamp that Itachi is literally inside and plan to harden the part of the swamp that he is contained in without burning himself.

Not sure why he'd be burned alive. If the fire doesn't hit him, he won't be burned alive. The fire hits the swamp, and causes the swamp to heat up.

ITACHI IS IN THE SWAMP you're literally oblivious to the obvious truth, please explain your reasoning or support how Itachi won't murder himself to death with amaterasu or katons. THE FURTHEST DISTANCE the swamp can be from him is his feet. The closest within a couple seconds by your logic is his waist. Come on man.

I know Itachi fans get desperate in situations like this but dude, that's one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever heard. As I said 1-2 posts ago, if you're trying to claim Itachi will be in the air and use katon on the swamp that he "evaded" by your logic, so that he can safely land on it, that's one thing. Saying "lol well while he's trapped he just katons is then hardens it... then he's ok somehow even though I didn't detail it at all" is another story. Pretty baffled here.

Never implied that.

Then you better damn well explain how you expect this to happen and do it fast, things are not looking good for you. Especially with those 3 words without any elaboration at all...not fishy or anything

Hell that paragraph you responded to had a GOOD counter, I was expecting that to be what you meant...but you denied it. So that leaves the only ridiculous possibility and I have no idea how it could possibly work, because it doesn't, you're backed into a corner pretty bad now...hoping for some clarification

Because there are feats and scaling to judge it's destructive power by. I'm seeing nothing from you but "Yomi Numa GG"

Of course that's all you're seeing, you're oblivious to the truth. Again no substance to your "counter" if you could call it that, just gainsaying.

Except that's a completely wrong line of logic I just wanted to satisfy you. In reality, Human path and Itachi are both normally affected by gravity and thus fall at the exact same speed, as Itachi can't fly he has to land one day and considering it caught Human in the same exact situation--or even more difficult as Jiraiya was in 3 way combat fighting off and Human and 2 others with eyes superior to sharingan, and Human was on the ceiling and easily could have jumped according to you and is even more affected by gravity, and Jiraiya still slipped it in the fight casually mid combat and about 20 other things-- he has no way of countering. Replace Human path with Itachi and the same exact thing happens, he's not god his body functions the same way as everyone else's besides Onoki.

I've explained why he doesn't need to be able to fly you counter Godly Yomi Numa.

lmfao no you haven't? Elaborate why he can counter it then, don't just leave that as a baseless claim since I don't see it, it doesn't exist because you haven't actually explained. If it has you can reply to this and explain how, until then you're wrong

I kinda wanna say that too but unfortunately I only give facts and support all of my claims with a base and evidence. Otherwise I'd reply to everything of yours with "lel I already countered this" and not bother wasting my time. I also proved how Jiraiya effortlessly solos full power otsutsuki clan and Juubito without lifting a finger, don't believe me just read my posts because I clearly did. Now don't you see how that might be viewed as baseless when you don't support jack?

Also, no. Human Path was running on the ceiling, and Jiraiya caught him with the technique. Human Path didn't even know it was coming. Itachi knows that it is coming before it actually comes and has intel on the jutsu. So no, not the same thing, so don't try and invalidate my counters by applying them to a completely different situation.

Yeah you're right, hence why in my post when I said he's in an even WORSE off situation than Itachi will be, and Jiraiya STILL caught him is one thing. Especially considering Human

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, and that was with all 6 paths activated and chakra flowing through them instead of just 3, and he has immense knowledge of Jiraiya's techniques and he was looking right at him and still couldn't "easily jump" to avoid. Also, it's not like rinnegan are the ultimate advancement of the sharingan or anything they're definitely inferior eyes. Just one most point of support.

Again another strawman as I never said this, in fact I never said that only that its activation is nigh instant, the second it touches Itachi he's screwed though as factually proven by Human's inability to do anything and more. But to make you happy(or mad that I'm right) look at the panel in which it was used originally in part 1 to see the massive snake attempting to attack and then the swamp immobilizes its movement in the span of 1 panel. An area hundreds and hundreds of times the size of width and depth of Itachi and it put half the snake under.. too bad it wasn't even completely submerged in "such a small swamp" and not like he needs to completely drown Itachi since that makes it too easy.

And I'm seeing nothing that stops him from hardening the mud before he's sunk deep enough where it'd be impossible for him to get out. You keep saying it sunk the snake as some counter, even though I never once claimed Itachi wouldn't be sunk eventually, if he doesn't do anything.

And I'm seeing nothing that rationally explains how Itachi will ever hope to do this given all of the evidence that suggests otherwise regarding his katon usage and fact that he would be in the swamp AKA at absolute best only to his feet length away.

This is an incredibly fallacious claim by you. This logic doesn't hold any merit because it's faulty logic,"Yomi Numa has only captured 2 targets, therefore it's impossible for Yomi Numa to capture Itachi because he's faster than those 2 targets and Yomi Numa hasn't been shown on panel to capture anyone faster than those 2." This is blatantly wrong because thus: Yomi Numa has never been shown attempting and failing to capture a target slower than Itachi, in fact both times it's been used it has succeeded and with flying colors at that.

If it were my only reason then yes, but I have reasoning as to why he evades it. I'm seeing no real speed feat from Yomi Numa from you that'd lead anyone to believe otherwise. "Yomi Numa GG" isn't an argument, going off what the manga showed isn't evidence since catching a giant snake and human path aren't evidences that lead anyone to believe it easily catches Itachi.

Well I've provided more proof as of this post if there wasn't enough already and made it more clear to you. There's motion in the panels other than just the yomi numa appearing so read them and my other paragraphs above to understand.

It is if it caught them nigh instantly, like I said it never failed to capture a target slower than Itachi either and both times it was used it worked spectacularly in the various range of situations Jiraiya needed to use it in.

And I've already answered why Human Path and Itachi are essentially equal in that case, even if that fallacy did make sense and was correct logic. Human and Itachi are equally affected by gravity, if Itachi and human jump and land on something Jiraiya uses it right where they land, Itachi can't circumvent that in any way he has no way of countering it any more than Human does.

Except that's not what happened with Human Path,

It does due to my post a couple paragraphs up that explains how if anything Human has a far easier time evading than Itachi will have you know, being defenseless in midair with no way to stop himself from landing or alter his movement midair to your admission many many times.

nor does that have anything to do with Itachi jumping to evade the swamp Jiraiya is trying to create under him.

You do realize if there's a swamp underneath a falling Itachi he can't just ignore its existence merely because you the debater reject that it's there? Once it touches his feet he's stuck and he has to resort to other methods of getting out like you're trying to prove with the amaterasu thing regardless of how irrational that is, he can't just hop on it and then instantly evade it somehow you haven't given ANY reason why he'll be able to do this.

I wanna know what's going on in your mind when you say this, it's like you're ignoring it's there.

This is pretty much you going off the preconceived, nonsensical notion that Jiraiya will be able to follow up with another swamp before Itachi has landed after evading his original swamp.

Considering you straight up admitted the amount of handsigns could easily be performed multiple, multiple times before a person gets from point A to B midair, then yeah it works glad we agree here.

Itachi sees it coming whilst he's in midair falling to the ground? Pray tell what he can possibly do if Jiraiya is forming the handsigns to make a swamp appear directly underneath him while he's affected by gravity and must land on the ground somehow. You cannot possibly counter this, it's utterly impossible for Itachi to avoid it that's what I'm saying.

He'll never be in that position, so there is nothing I need to counter.

LOL are you serious? That's yet again another USELESS one liner that doesn't answer anything in my actual paragraph. Another main point just ignored from you while you stick to focusing on irrelevant stuff.

I've been nice neough to consider all of these ridiculous possibilities you've been throwing at me like Itachi leaves himself defenseless and detaches susano'o from himself to free him or Itachi lights the very swamp he's trapped in on fire with katons or amaterasu to harden it not suffocate him because of that and then free him(somehow). Even though none of that would ever happen and it proves without a shadow of a doubt Jiraiya shits neg diff. Yet you respond to actual VALID points like this?

Support the ridiculous claim that Itachi would "never be put" in that position when this paragraph which you ignored, and many many many others that you also ignored, prove otherwise.

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If Itachi is surrounded by mud and Susanoo is activated, the mud will be pushed away as Susanoo is a physical object.

LMFAOO perfect Susano'o

Doesn't need to smash concrete inside itself. There'll be no concrete inside itself.

So then...what exactly will he be freeing? No swamp outside of Susano'o, no Itachi outside of Susano'o, no concrete outside of it either. Simple

Anyway, here's where my point of Susano'o "boxing him in" comes into play, if the AoE of the swamp is much smaller than the area Susano'o covers he has no way of destroying it with Susano'o. Hey plus they even have full knowledge, isn't that great more support.

The whole swamp? Yes. The area where Itachi is trapped? Yup.

Ok lol... you're just outright conceding now, that's something new

In case you're confused the swamp used to catch Human path was barely wider than his actual body it wasn't bigger than it needed to be, there's no reason to make the swamp that big and Susano'o would have no way of damaging it, and Itachi would ahve no way of using his katon or ammy in some nonsensical way that you claim to harden through without severely injuring himself.

Pretty common sense, I hope you weren't assuming he was gonna use the snake level swamp to catch Itachi with even though he could if he wanted, he didn't use it that way to catch Human. But if he did, then yeah Itachi would become fully submerged so that's not an argument you want to start.

I was waiting for you to say that lol...sorry it destroys your points, in fact I was thinking about posting that exact scan to help reinforce my point. Hey, you know what happens when it detaches from Itachi, the frail non-durable character who's stuck defenseless in a swamp until Susano'o breaks him out, right?

Nothing.

LOL 1 word is not a valid counter, if Itachi has no susano'o to defend himself as you claim and he's stuck in the swamp Jiraiya kills him with absolutely no difficulty.

Yeah, Jiraiya's just gonna sit on his ass and wait for susano'o to appear behind him, even with full knowledge, and break him out. LOL

He can do what he wants, but it's not going to matter since Susanoo will block him.

wtf? You literally just tried to use it detaching from him as evidence. Susano'o can't be in 2 places at once, if it comes off to break him out, then Itachi is defenseless. Simple.

All he has to do is hit him once, then that "defense" that you claimed was a decent response to "defenseless? he has unbeatable susanoo gg" is completely null and void. Second it detaches from him Jiraiya kicks his head off and he dies instead of sitting on his ass waiting for it to free him.

Yes, because Susanoo will sit there and let Jiraiya come and kick Itachi's head off. Lol, are we serious with this horseshit.

YOU CALLING MY POST HORSESHIT LOL meanwhile you literally said Itachi's only defence against Jiraiya is Susano'o or he's screwed as we know he's not very durable, and now you're saying it can casually detach from him and free Itachi while also protecting defenseless ol him from anything Jiraiya does in his dozens of lethal+ jutsu arsenal.

Susano'o isn't blocking shit, Jiraiya makes a lake of burning hot oil to melt Itachi while he's trapped in the swamp and Susano'o jumps off to free him. Or he just kicks his head off inb4 Susano'o can react to it. Or Ma or Pa detach and cut his head off. Or Pa uses his stone tongue and cuts his head off. Or the instant Susano'o comes off Jiraiya impales Itachi with thousands of 2 ft long sage hardened senbon.

Plus, based on the COMPLETELY ridiculous notion that Itachi's even able to "harden" it or Susano'os powerful enoug to break it out anyway. And how is Susano'o planning on breaking him out without hurting Itachi himself? Nevertheless none of that really matters, since you openly conceded the trapped Itachi willingly takes off the only thing preventing him from being rekt in .2 seconds.

By smashing the concrete around him.

Ok ignoring all the other COMPLETELY ridiculous sht you've spouted in these past few paragraphs, and assuming everythng you said till now is valid which it isn't in ANY way...wtf? I'm serious you need to draw this in paint for me and show a diagram of how exactly you think this encounter is going to go down. I feel like 99% of people even the most hardcore Itachi fans when faced with "how will Itachi break from Yomi Numa" will read that and be clueless, clearly you're not explaining it well enough or maybe that really is what you mean.

The area around it is too small, he's not breaking anything that Jiraiya won't be able to inherently deal with on account of not sitting on his ass waiting for Susano'o to do something implying Itachi isn't dead already and the fact Jiraiya only needs to make the swamp as wide as Itachi's body is. Nothing else for the Susano'o to hit but Itachi, and aside from Susano'o breaking him out who knows what other example you have...

Same kind of fallacy that you used before about how because Yomi Numa only trapped fodders then anyone who is better than those fodders will be able to avoid it. Just because KN0 was physically stronger than boss snake doesn't mean anything, but you already gave up with the above paragraphs, and Susano'o punching the swamp will only get it trapped if anything since the idea of it hardening is kinda weird. Plus there's the part where Jiraiya is sitting around waiting for Itachi to do that and hte second Susano'o tries to pull him out it's gg.

The swamp's best feat is restraining something weaker than Part 1 KN0. No reason to believe it'll hold Susanoo. That simple. You definitely aren't giving me any reason to believe it is either.

Bold is a nice counter. When you can actually prove it's impossible, I'll take this seriously.

Again you made the same failure in logic right after I pointed out it was bad and why it was bad. There's no evidence that Susano'o will be able to break out considering both things it trapped have been trapped successfully and nothing has ever succeeded at breaking out that's weaker in strength than Susano'o. I haven't used that as support for it hurting or helping Itachi's survival you wre the one who brought it up while using that logical fallacy as support. That's kinda why they're bad, just being fallacious isn't enough to make an argument wrong but it's an incorrect line of logic that doesn't make sense, so your proof for that doesn't say anything either way now. I never used that logic though and I never said its strength wasn't enough to pull it out either.

Where is your proof for it having the strength to pull it other than that fallacy? If it was someone like BM Naruto then I'd understand where you're coming from but Susano'o hasn't displayed the most impressive strength feats out there and definitely not Itachi.

Susanoo punching the HARDENED area of the swamp won't trap it. Susanoo tries to pull Itachi out, if Jiraiya attacks, he gets blocked and Itachi gets back in Susanoo and retreats from the swamp.

Susano'o doesn't need to be trapped and lol, again you're making utterly empty and baseless posts. "He gets blocked?" You just assume it's true and that I'll accept that, but it's useless. You've given me no reason to believe Susano'o can just casually be able to block any of Jiraiya's attacks most of which will one shot Itachi, especially considering you're trying to say it's gonna detach from his body leaving it trapped in the swamp and wide open.

You have seen evidence on multiple occasions. Almost no time passed, at least not enough time for that massive charging snake t do anything about it or for Human to "jump again" like you're claiming and hell, Jiraiya didn't even use it before he touched the ground that time like he can so easily do with Itachi who apparently jumps to avoid it.

Almost no time between what? Jiraiya finishing the hand signs and then the swamp appearing? Irrelevant. Itachi will evade before he finishes the hand signs as he'll be able to see them coming. The rest I've replied to in the above paragraphs.

Actually, you haven't at all, in the slightest. Again you emptily say "I already replied to this" when it's complete BS ad you did no such thing. In fact, as evidenced by my recounting of such events and putting quotes within quotes and quoting you at times, you're actively avoiding responding to that very point that you claim you already countered. Get to it, what's Itachi's answer for falling straight into an already laid swamp?

And that handsigns bit I really have already replied to.

You realize what position Itachi will be in if he holds his arms up right? It's going to immobilize the rest of his body it'll be extremely hard to use handsigns, and absolutely no handsign he makes will benefit him when he's a sitting duck like that. Try and picture it in your head, look at how things would actually unfold if that happened and get the images out of your head that say Itachi is unbeatable and would be able to move in the swamp in any position, make as many handsigns while sinking or drowning and instantly katon the swamp harden it, then Susano'o breaks it somehow and frees him then he moves on. Human path was literally unable to move in any way and the tiny swamp that sunk the massive snake in 1 panel was thousands of times the size of Itachi. same panel evidence again

If he's submerged deep enough that it'd put him in such a position (say his chest) then yes. But since you've given me no reason to believe he'll be submerged that deep before Amaterasu or a Katon can harden the area he's trapped in....you have no point. At this point, anything I don't reply to is something you've already stated.

Ok now I'm starting to see where you're coming from with this. I gotta say this post is pretty key in destroying your argument once and for all but I at least somewhat understand.

First off glad you admit that he's truly screwed if it's up to his chest, gonna add this to the Coffin Nail Spoiler Evidence Folder. Second off, now that I have given proof that it's that fast e.g. reading the surrounding scans when he used Yomi Numa and see how little the positions of objects changed in the very small amount of time it took for Yomi Numa to completely sink a snake and sink Human at the very least up to where Itachi's waist would be in absolutely no time at all, then it's over since you admitted it's GG if it does reach that position.

Third off, lol @ the amaterasu and katon bit again, even if it's all the way to his feet how in the hell do you expect Itachi to casually spread amaterasu to harden and free him but not burn him to death, and it's known for spreading and being impossible to put out. Then katon well I already explained this but just to emphasize it and hammer it further yet again, Itachi isn't a firebender he can't control fire at will he only has used fireball jutsu in the past and looking down and shooting them or lighting himself on fire with Ammy or a katon...just no. I can't see that happening especially not in the very very short time it takes for Itachi to sink.

This is what true desperation looks like.

Ah yes, his arms were the only reason he was immobile. Definitely not because the rest of his body was completely submerged or because the swamp prevents him from moving or anything. Must be just the arms. If Itachi can avoid getting his arms sunk it doesn't matter if it's up to his neck clearly, he no diff pulls off a katon somehow and escapes because you only get immobilized if your arms go under. True brilliance, how will I ever counter this genius logic.

Already replied to above.

I've read your entire post now. You did no such thing. Claiming you already countered something =/= actually countering it, nor does it invalidate it. So try again with support for your claims this time

You used plural at the start, again proving by the time he sees Jiraiya use the handsigns the swamp will have already been made.

Unless he can complete 2 hand signs before Sharingan can catch them (Which he can't) then no, you are wrong.

You forgot the part where Itachi actually has to bend his legs then jump and push himself using his actual body speed, in order to avoid rather than just seeing it.

Unfortunately when it really is common sense then yeah it's an argument that you're just being clearly too stubborn to accept the obvious facts. How is Itachi supposed to future-see with Sharingan that Jiraiya is gonna make a move when they start at the exact same time, then realize and process what jutsu and realize he has to jump, then bend his legs and push him up before Jiraiya makes his hands in 1 position?

You're still exaggerating Itachi's powers to the point of making it seem like he gets a 1 second headstart to read what Jiraiya's about to do. Pretend he has sharingan turned off and knows he has to jump the second the fight starts for a second. Which is faster Jiraiya moving 2 fingers or Itachi going into full jump to dodge what he knows is coming. Now erase that and pretend he actually has to use sharingan and magically read his hands and then do all of that. It's literally common sense it's not my fault you want Itachi to win so bad you can't see the truth. I've tried to help you look at things rationally plenty now.

Already explained.


Already explained above.

Yeah...gonna have to ask you, as a person who read and thoroughly replied to EVERYTHING you said, to support that bullshit baseless claim that you "already explained" this.

Every single thing I have said has a support and base for it, that's why I think Jiraiya wins because it's based off something other than blind fanboyism. Please show me any specific example of things I have not elaborated on and I will do just that with manga evidence and my thought process. Until then it's you who's making the "empty claims" by claiming that mine are empty. I see no examples in that paragraph because they don't exist and again you know it.

Your argument is literally "Yomi Numa one shots, prove me wrong" "Itachi isn't fast enough to evade because I say so" that is blind wank right there. That's not even an argument.

Already proven wrong in the above somewhere and again, strawmans strawmans strawmans. Isn't it weird that hte paragraph I told you yo uwere making empty claims you tried to spew the crap that that's all I was saying when you've failed to counter much much more proof time and time again?

I'd be ok with you saying that if you actually to SOME extent countered any of those claims, but each of those was backed up with very much proof and evidence while all you have to show for the contrary is "lol ur wrong because <distortion of my post that I never actually said>and i clearly already countered all of ur points, and ur a wanker..what a joke." Tsk tsk what a joke

Yet again, you're under the impression there will be a lasting freeze frame of time that exists "while" Jiraiya is "busy" making those handsigns. In reality, he moves them into a position, then puts them in another position then the ground Itachi is on pulls him under. He physically cannot jump and avoid in the time it takes for Jiraiya to do that, please stop avoiding the subject.

Already replied to. "He can't he can't" isn't a counter.

How ironic, that's what you've been doing this entire time in reply to my completely valid and STILL untouched posts. Are you trying to make yourself look stupid? You said auto gainsaying isn't a counter for an argument and that's literally what you did, where is the counterargument here other than "lol no ur wrong"? No substance to your replies, none at all.

Still going strong consistently remembering to put my original quotes inside when possible, just to prove how little of anything within it you actually countered.

If only I did.

You did. Oh trust me you did. Still are actually

Once Itachi gets sunk, Susano'o has no way of damaging inside itself in order to break him out without first detaching from Itachi. Once it does that, he has no defense until Susano'o breaks him out(assuming the completely baseless idea that it even can)...and then it's very clearly GG as Jiraiya easily kills Susano'o-less, immobilized Itachi.

Repeat of above points.

Yes, it WAS a repeat of my above points. But your counter for those repeated points? Absolutely none listed here, as I can see

The difference is Itachi was clearly on defence and literally jumped away as soon as possible, Sasuke was engaged in a taijutsu fight with Bee and even planned on countering not that hard of a concept to understand. Although I already went over this above when we discussed how Sasuke clearly allowed himself to get stabbed by Bee's swords even though he was able to see through his speed earlier with sharingan easy. Genius

Still evaded it though.

"The difference is Itachi was clearly on defence and literally jumped away as soon as possible, Sasuke was engaged in a taijutsu fight with Bee and even planned on countering not that hard of a concept to understand"

Sasuke didn't either, it was after he continued the taijutsu match that he lost. He could have easily fled the same as Itachi as shown here but he stuck around instead of dashing away like Itachi did.

Didn't what? Evade V1 B? Already posted a scan of him doing so. No amount of bad logic and denial of fact will change that.

Jeez man just read the posts I can literally repaste all of my past responses as valid counters now. Sasuke didn't stumble either...it was only after he continued the taijutsu fight with Bee that he lost and got kicked away(and later impale ggd). According to your logic, with OP sharingan he could have avoided it effortlessly but you already conceded on this far far far above this paragraph so there's no more point to discussing Bee vs Sauce.

If only I said or implied that.

Yes, saying now that you never said something in the past when I'm directly quoting you doesn't erase you saying it from history.

If only I implied that Itachi blitzed B in that panel.

Alright good we agree at least

In the last one? Yeah. In this one? No. Doesn't change the fact that B had no reaction to Itachi coming down toward him.

Because of basic rational logic and common sense that I already explained, and Naruto is a sensor, and Itachi never attacked Bee or landed anything on him, so that's pretty void as is but again irrelevant to the very hard hitting proof you've given me all throughout this post that Jiraiya undoubtedly stomps.

But yeah at least you admitted they moved in the exact same fashion, literally 99% of shinobi in the manga can move like this so I hope you're not going to try to argue on using that as a speed feat. I'll show more of Haku's combat speed and Lee's to see how much more impressive it looks if you really want, either way this holds no relevance in the idea Itachi will be able to jump before Jiraiya forms handsigns at the very beginning, or escape Yomi Numa once he's trapped inside(be it the very beginning, or after he baselessly jumps to avoid since I'm giving benefit of the doubt).

Pretty sure I already replied to this.

Well sorry to break it to you but you were wrong, you definitely did no such thing, try again with actual support this time

Unfortunately, the time between #1 and 2 are so miniscule by the time Itachi actively realizes Jiraiya is going to use Yomi Numa and #2 happens, Yomi Numa has already been used and his legs are not physically fast enough to bend and jump before Jiraiya moves his hands quickly, so he gets sunk. You make it seem like it takes hours for Jiraiya to make a single handsign but by the time he uses 1 and Itachi realizes he's using 2 he will have used it.

Another repeat of points replied to.

Another bullshit empty claim, please support them with evidence or own up to your inability to counter instead of lying about already having replied to something you actively went out of your way to avoid countering because you cannot.

Unless you have some proof that Itachi can time travel back 3 seconds the instant the fight starts, they both start the fight at the exact same time and they both move at the exact same time. Even if Itachi knew that Jiraiya was using Yomi Numa before the fight started and could see that in the future which is impossible, he probably can't react in time because the reality of the situation is they still begin to move at the same time. I don't care how far in the future he can see, but he will not be able to jump before Jiraiya activates it especially with the notion he has to "future read" first to even know he's begun forming handsigns.

Again with the "go back in time" bullshit?

Again mere contradiction with NO substance at all. It couldn't prove anything wrong even if what I said was wrong and outright lies. That's childish "baww no u" logic, so please stop that. Don't bother replying if it's going to be your only response to claims you can't counter.

Their unorthodox movement made them hard to track. Nothing to do with speed.

You already conceded on this wayyyy up there and it proved what I posted it to prove so moving on

What's faster, Jiraiya moving his hands or Itachi processing what's about to happen then bending his legs then jumping to avoid what he can't possibly know is coming until it's already pretty much activated, and only then can decide to move at best? Your logic here's getting pretty iffy, try to consider things more rationally and see it's just not possible.

Jumping>Making two hand signs when it comes to speed.

Support this claim. My evidence has been laid out ninjas making a shitton of handsigns in an instant being one. Yours being..."no ur wrong its still faster" with no support to it in the slightest.

Making 2 hand signs>Jumping from one location to another when it comes to speed. The difference has been explained, not gonna repeat myself.

Exactly, yet another piece of evidence to put in your coffin folder. Glad you agree with me that Jiraiya can easily make a Yomi Numa in the time it takes Itachi to fall to location B.

-Says Yomi Numa is so fast that Itachi won't be able to evade despite his speed feats and despite the fact that Yomi Numa has no notable speed feat of it's own.

Literally ignored my entire proof all throughout last post saying the opposite

Catching Human Path and catching a giant snake are it's only feats, and neither are as fast as Itachi nor could they see the attack coming.

Again you're committing a blatant fallacy, a huge fault in logic when you assume because it has only been shown on panel catching 2 slower targets that it's impossible to catch anyone faster. It hasn't been shown failing to catch someone slower than Itachi so until you prove it does your reasoning is wrong and you are wrong.

-Says Yomi Numa will submerge him so quickly that by the time he tries to harden the mud, he'll be too deep and will burn himself alive. Provides no evidence.

Well, to your admission you agree this will happen so...gg I guess

What a joke.

LMFAO you can't say "what a joke" when the only thing you did all post(other than get annihilated) was ignore 99% of my valid paragraphs and dismissed them in 2 seconds by lying and saying "oh I already explained this," while pretending you actually countered something. Nice try

and summary or closing or whatever you want to call it is in here:

Spoiler

Essentially, a large majority of your post was automatic contradiction of everything I said, e.g. "no u" without any actual substance to those counters. Plus, outright rejecting of my valid logic with again no actual counters within your posts. You also spent most of that time lying by claiming "lol I already countered this" or saying "what a joke" again without any actual valid counterargument. Just saying I'm wrong does not make me wrong you have to actually prove that, and you have failed to do so.

Plus, everything you've said in this post has only reinforced how strongly my points were made and how brittle and shaky yours were, as I have reposted and quoted you directly within multiple times straight up contradicting yourself, and all of my claims still remain the same if not strengthened, and definitely undamaged by your auto-gainsay.

To recap on my main arguments since it's pretty long now, and so there's no way for you to run away with them if I summarize them all and give reasons...along with the spoiler post I gathered up, which is a collection of direct quotes from you where you outright admitted defeat to me(albeit indirectly) when you conceded on all the vital points that prove what I'm saying is correct.

You're only stuck on the fodder irrelevant stuff like what mind-Itachi has done, or what Bee vs Sasuke entails even though that already proved what I posted it to prove long ago. Those are the things you focus on since they hold like .001% relevance in the argument, meanwhile my main, major points which I've already proved(and am going to emphasize in a minute) and you admitted to, have gone unaddressed or avoided through the use of "lol already answered this" or "uh no, wrong " one liners, or even outright removing them from my post which are obviously not valid counters to anyone with more than 10 IQ.

Here's the spoiler I made by throwing in all your posts that help prove my point as I was going along. Yes as strange and contradictory as they may seem considering what you're actually trying to prove here, they are all indeed in context direct quotes. It's a weird pattern you'll find, when you're bullshitting 99% of the time and are just making stuff up as you go and don't even know what you believe anymore: green is me btw

Spoiler

If he's not on the ground when Jiraiya uses it? Yes, it's impossible[to avoid]. [some extra stuff here about how Jiraiya won't be able to use Yomi Numa when Itachi is midair SOMEHOW...thus somehow "invalidating" the idea Jiraiya is ever able to use it midair, despite the below claims directly from you saying otherwise]
Making 2 hand signs>Jumping from one location to another when it comes to speed. [yes this is a direct quote they all are in fact, i cant make this shit up folks outright helping me reinforce and prove my arguments all this time. not even out of context lol literally ctrl F them for proof.]
Try jumping, and then try making Yomi Numa's hand signs. The latter is clearly faster than the former.[yep you read that right] If we were measuring jumping from one point to another's speed vs. making hand signs speed, then you'd have a point [aka before landing]
Which means nothing, since I never said jumping from point A to point B is faster than making Yomi Numa's hand signs, I said that jumping period, is faster than Yomi Numa's hand signs
Well no shit if he's caught that deep[chest level or so] it's over, but the thing is, he won't be caught that deep before he can do something about it[no support for that but I already proved it wrong and will even more so in the summary...just wanted to leave it so can't cry "hurr already countered that" or "baww out of context"]
If he's submerged deep enough that it'd put him in such a position (say his chest) then yes[he will be screwed]. But since you've given me no reason to believe he'll be submerged that deep[other than literally everything but i'll get to it momentarily...] before Amaterasu or a Katon can harden the area he's trapped in[yes you read that right again]....you have no point

Main points of mine and summary are the following:
1) First is the counter to your idea that Itachi will be able to magically avoid a Yomi Numa underneath him. As seen above(and all throughout your post), the only thing you have contrary to that fact is "no u, I already explained how he can avoid it". And I am not talking about Itachi jumping to avoid one Jiraiya is about to form, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Itachi being midair from jumping, and then Jiraiya places one under him where he's about to land. Again, you've outright admitted it would be impossible for Itachi to avoid if he was falling onto an already formed Yomi Numa, and admitted he has no way of flying or moving midair to avoid it, admitted Jiraiya can easily make these handsigns in the time it takes for Itachi to fall to a position, and you've also openly admitted Itachi WILL jump at the start. This goes through step 1. You literally conceded on it 100%, it's all in the spoiler, I can't possibly be more clear. The other spots you attempted to respond to this hard hitting proof, you just erased it completely as evidenced in my very first spoiler tag at the beginning, or dropped a one liner, I mean you LITERALLY used "uh, no" as a complete response to huge paragraphs that proved you wrong with nothing more. What the hell man?

2) Second is the idea that when Itachi does get trapped to your admission given all of the previous, he can somehow free himself using Katons or...the even more humiliating Amaterasu. Then he apparently detaches Susano'o from himself so that it can punch the swamp that Itachi is trapped in along with Amaterasu and break him free. None of this is a strawman seriously just read the spoiler and read the quotes. So...sigh. Seriously? Do I even have to go into how ridiculous this is, again from my very first spoiler showing what you ignored from my post since you did everything you could to avoid countering, this is terrible logic. Not only has Itachi never displayed the powers of a firebender and can casually burn away the precise spot Yomi Numa has him trapped in (has only displayed massive fireballs), and not only can Jiraiya form it like he did with Human Path and only barely surround Itachi, but it's also max of like 5 ft distance from Itachi. This goes along with your ridiculous assertion it takes forever for the swamp to get to a point on Itachi's body where using Amaterasu on himself won't somehow hurt him. I don't have to address this any further, the swamp will be Itachi sized...using Ammy on it...and he's stuck inside... what. But it's relevant to my 3rd point.

Then you said Susano'o will detach somehow and break Itachi out. Well considering you conceded Itachi would be a sitting duck and Susano'o has to detach from Itachi and has no other defense besides Susano'o, the instant Susano'o is freed from Itachi Jiraiya can kill him no diff as he is stuck in the swamp. Pretty obvious GG here there's no possible, logical explanation to get around that. Other than "lol no u, idiot wanker I already countered this." that's a pretty good one

3) Finally is my own proof. Considering you agreed on the above and that Itachi will get caught, you also admitted if it ever reached his chest area or even got close Itachi is screwed and wouldn't be able to do anything etc. Yes, quote "If it does get to chest area it's over..." empty claim that I'm strawmanning if you want but I literally copy pasted your own words. Read the spoiler. So given that all I need to prove from this point to assure Itachi's obvious destruction, is that the swamp will indeed sink him fast enough before he can...not burn himself to death with Amaterasu or a katon? That's easy. Like I said in my post multiple times, just look at

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all in the time span of 1 panel. Before Yomi Numa and after it was activated are virtually the same in motion, even read the surrounding pages.

All of the other motion in the pages has not moved at all the only difference is the swamp appearing and submerged the target successfully, in the surrounding panels Animal was still ascended in the air, so were Jiraiya and Oro in part 1. And this was all nigh instantly let alone what could happen in a couple seconds... let alone Itachi being affected by gravity, let alone Jiraiya choosing to make a swamp that instantly sunk a snake 1000 times deeper than Itachi, let alone sitting on his ass while...wait...Itachi...burns himself with Amaterasu then has Susano'o...detach leaving him defenseless...then punch the area surrounding Itachi AKA punch Itachi himself then...free him? This logic lol..but it's ok at least I've considered it and countered it with proof, no matter how completely insane and irrational it is instead of just saying "lol nope" as you have through your entire post.

And now that I've shown how fast Yomi Numa can be by just looking at the objects in motion in the surrounding panels, it's very very simple to understand, that given the proof you openly conceded on those points. "If" it sinks fast enough or then if it gets up to his chest it's over as you agreed, and you agreed multiple times that the handsigns for Yomi Numa take FAR less time than Itachi's while he's traveling mid air. Yep the proof is all right in the spoilers, you proved my own points right. You've given flawed logic for far too long but you finally saw the truth throughout your post. Took awhile but you made it, good work.

You have admitted every single thing that my claims are based on in your post as shown by the spoiler that I titled "KG's Coffin Spoiler" every single post inside is a nail. THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF THIS, you're just wrong, everything you said is wrong, that's how we know who's right. My claims have only been supported from post 1 and I've been telling you how empty your claims are to this point and have backed up each of my posts, paragraphs even with all my logic and reasoning for WHY I believe that including a bunch of manga scans. My claims have stayed consistent and strong. All you've said, for the most part is "no, that's wrong, that's a baseless claim" which is ironic as fuuuuuuu~~~~~~~~~~g.

You just lose, your claims have shifted so much you contradicted yourself so much I even compiled your posts where you just admitted I was right, if that's not being in denial over the obvious winner then I'll never find out what is. True desperation, but you can admit defeat any time you want, an attempt at refuting this is foolish, because my post is only the truth so you'll make yourself look like an idiot. Even the most hardcore Itachi fanboy can see the clear flaws in your logic and why you lost.

Contrary to popular belief AKA mine it didn't take that long had to write it on and off though so probably took about 30 minutes total. It's how i chose to spend what little time i had dammit and I have no regrets, it was all worth it.

 

[Bogard]

Damn wall of texts _@: