Hiruzen > Madara

Koha

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Retcon.


Technically was supposed to be the strongest until Kishi continued with the storyline.



Still doesn't change the fact he was one of Konoha's ultimate Shinobi, even suffering with old age.. I mean, everyone's downplaying the strength of Hashirama and Tobirama but they still lost to a half dead old man, Kishi's official titles for Hiruzen was still God of Shinobi and Professor (Mastering all the disciplines, Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu with a perfect rating in the databook). Even seeing how much things change, respect is still due.

Note: His statistics were near perfect in old age, imagine if he was at least 10-15 years younger.
 
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hixa kuogame

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Hiruzen>Madara due to Madara not currently showing any Sealing Based techniques.. And check this out.

Multiple Clone RDS

Hiruzen is seen to have made multiple clones in order to seal Tobirama, and Hashirama without his true self dying in the act. You see this? It clearly hows Hiruzen performing a multi-clone RDS impressive right? Now check this scan out. The clones then disperse from the use of RDS, and Hiruzen is still standing meaning you don't die when performing the RDS with multiple clones. This is like Orochimaru having part of himself sealed (his arms) it's rather simple.

How does Madara fend against multiple clone RDS?

u ppl act like pts is actual legitimate proof of anything all its good for is shippuden flashbacks
and if there shadow clones madara could just make would clones and have multiple susanoo
and wtf we're not even positive rds can penetrate susanoo
 

DrProof

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Considering the amount of clones Hiruzen can create at a given time....Madara can easily spam Mokuton clones.

This isn't Edo Madara (I presume as the OP hasn't added the intended detail) so how exactly does he "spam" Mokuton clones? The only character we've seen that wasn't Edo spam clones was Naruto. If this is Rinnegan Madara then it's a different story.. EMS Madara is debatable.
 

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Hiruzen>Madara due to Madara not currently showing any Sealing Based techniques.. And check this out.

Multiple Clone RDS

Hiruzen is seen to have made multiple clones in order to seal Tobirama, and Hashirama without his true self dying in the act. You see this? It clearly hows Hiruzen performing a multi-clone RDS impressive right? Now check this scan out. The clones then disperse from the use of RDS, and Hiruzen is still standing meaning you don't die when performing the RDS with multiple clones. This is like Orochimaru having part of himself sealed (his arms) it's rather simple.

How does Madara fend against multiple clone RDS?
If madara is in perfect susanoo (stabalized) hiruzen can't even reach his body, madara just draws canyons in the ground on a whim and hiruzen is reduced to ashes.

Same for karuma susanoo madara.
 
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DrProof

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u ppl act like pts is actual legitimate proof of anything all its good for is shippuden flashbacks
and if there shadow clones madara could just make would clones and have multiple susanoo
and wtf we're not even positive rds can penetrate susanoo

If madara is in perfect susanoo (stabalized) hiruzen can't even reach his body, madara just draws canyons in the ground on a whim and hiruzen is reduced to ashes.


I couldn't read much of this post to be honest. Anyhow to address the bold. We aren't sure RDS can't penetrate Susano'o from your perspective..

Susano'o is a pure chakra coating the users body correct? Why wouldn't a chakra based sealing jutsu (RDS) be able to seal the chakra used to make susano'o? After all the users chakra is displayed while performing the technique correct? So if RDS was used on Susano'o wouldn't Madara's chakra be sealed within the Death Reaper?
 

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Your point is that the manga said that Hiruzen was the strongest of them all right? At one point it also said that rinnengan was a mutation, that hashirama's powers were fairy tale, and that the so6p/ tentails was not real, yet we all know these to be proven wrong.

And to your point of him taking on the previous hokage, oro used the impure world reincarnation which greatly hinders the summons abilities.
 

Kages

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Reported for troll and fanboying ~_~

He wasn't trolling... lol. Trolling is posting nude pics/spamming pointless threads/flaming someone. He didn't do either of those things. Fanboying is no reason to report someone. A legit report reason would be that he put this in the wrong section and he double posted a lot.

OT- Hiruzen has a lot of counters to EMS Madara techniques actually. He loses by feats though. But we don't know what would happen.
 

repulse

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This isn't Edo Madara (I presume as the OP hasn't added the intended detail) so how exactly does he "spam" Mokuton clones? The only character we've seen that wasn't Edo spam clones was Naruto. If this is Rinnegan Madara then it's a different story.. EMS Madara is debatable.

Hmm...good point. I believe he was referring to EMS Madara. In that case, I don't see how Hiruzen can get through PS with Multiple Clone RDS...
 

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Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime, and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha has ever had.[1][20][21] Even in his old age, he was also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.[22] Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.[23]
Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released;[24] furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth.[25] Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.

Taijutsu Edit
In terms of taijutsu, Hiruzen displayed a very high level of skill in his old age. He was able to counter Hashirama and Tobirama in close combat, who were revived with Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation, though neither of then were at their full power due to Orochimaru's lack of mastery with the technique. He could lay an explosive tag on each of them without them or Orochimaru who was controlling them even knowing. After summoning Enma, he could break Hashirama's Wood Release branches with ease.
Even when robbed of his sight from the genjutsu Bringer-of-Darkness Technique, he could still defend himself from Hashirama's and Tobirama's assaults, blocking all their attacks to prepare for his Dead Demon Consuming Seal. After sealing both former Hokage, he faced Orochimaru in single combat. Despite his sealing parts of his soul away in the Shinigami, as well as fighting for a prolonged amount of time before he engaged Orochimaru one-on-one, he effortlessly disarmed him of his sword.

Ninjutsu Edit

Hiruzen using the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.
Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha.[26] In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed.[27] His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances.[28] He was also an expert in fūinjutsu, being capable of using the Uzumaki clan's Dead Demon Consuming Seal. Due to his old age and waning strength he was forced to get into close range of an enemy in order for it to take effect, though he was still capable of sealing the souls of the First and Second Hokage and part of Orochimaru's soul.
Nature Transformation Edit

Hiruzen using Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet.
Sarutobi was highly skilled in elemental ninjutsu, using Fire Release and Earth Release. Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet allowed him to exhale a powerful stream of fire from his mouth. Earth Release: Earth Flow River created a river of mud beneath the opponent to throw them off balance, and he could use the mud with Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet, which creates a dragon's head that launches mud balls at an opponent. He had also been shown to be adept in combining elemental techniques, as seen when he ignited the mud ball projectiles with Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet, creating a volley of hot mud that can melt nearly anything. Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall allowed Hiruzen to spit a stream of mud that solidifies into a protective shield.
Summoning Technique Edit

A young Hiruzen with Enma.
Hiruzen also had a personal summon: Monkey King: Enma, who was capable of turning into a diamond-hard staff, which could alter its length and width at will, or become a cage to protect the summoner. The staff was Hiruzen's weapon of choice as he showed great proficiency in wielding it; he successfully pushed back Kurama with it during its attack on Konoha.[29] Enma could also manifest parts of his body and attack an enemy with his claws and fangs, which added an element of surprise.
Stats Edit
Databook Ninjutsu Taijutsu Genjutsu Intelligence Strength Speed Stamina Hand seals Total
First 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 5 34
Second 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 5 34


and this is old hiruzen
 

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Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime, and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha has ever had.[1][20][21] Even in his old age, he was also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.[22] Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.[23]
Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released;[24] furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth.[25] Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.

Taijutsu Edit
In terms of taijutsu, Hiruzen displayed a very high level of skill in his old age. He was able to counter Hashirama and Tobirama in close combat, who were revived with Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation, though neither of then were at their full power due to Orochimaru's lack of mastery with the technique. He could lay an explosive tag on each of them without them or Orochimaru who was controlling them even knowing. After summoning Enma, he could break Hashirama's Wood Release branches with ease.
Even when robbed of his sight from the genjutsu Bringer-of-Darkness Technique, he could still defend himself from Hashirama's and Tobirama's assaults, blocking all their attacks to prepare for his Dead Demon Consuming Seal. After sealing both former Hokage, he faced Orochimaru in single combat. Despite his sealing parts of his soul away in the Shinigami, as well as fighting for a prolonged amount of time before he engaged Orochimaru one-on-one, he effortlessly disarmed him of his sword.

Ninjutsu Edit

Hiruzen using the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.
Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha.[26] In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed.[27] His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances.[28] He was also an expert in fūinjutsu, being capable of using the Uzumaki clan's Dead Demon Consuming Seal. Due to his old age and waning strength he was forced to get into close range of an enemy in order for it to take effect, though he was still capable of sealing the souls of the First and Second Hokage and part of Orochimaru's soul.
Nature Transformation Edit

Hiruzen using Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet.
Sarutobi was highly skilled in elemental ninjutsu, using Fire Release and Earth Release. Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet allowed him to exhale a powerful stream of fire from his mouth. Earth Release: Earth Flow River created a river of mud beneath the opponent to throw them off balance, and he could use the mud with Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet, which creates a dragon's head that launches mud balls at an opponent. He had also been shown to be adept in combining elemental techniques, as seen when he ignited the mud ball projectiles with Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet, creating a volley of hot mud that can melt nearly anything. Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall allowed Hiruzen to spit a stream of mud that solidifies into a protective shield.
Summoning Technique Edit

A young Hiruzen with Enma.
Hiruzen also had a personal summon: Monkey King: Enma, who was capable of turning into a diamond-hard staff, which could alter its length and width at will, or become a cage to protect the summoner. The staff was Hiruzen's weapon of choice as he showed great proficiency in wielding it; he successfully pushed back Kurama with it during its attack on Konoha.[29] Enma could also manifest parts of his body and attack an enemy with his claws and fangs, which added an element of surprise.
Stats Edit
Databook Ninjutsu Taijutsu Genjutsu Intelligence Strength Speed Stamina Hand seals Total
First 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 5 34
Second 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 5 34


and this is old hiruzen

Nice copy paste.
 

Da Best Ever

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He wasn't trolling... lol. Trolling is posting nude pics/spamming pointless threads/flaming someone. He didn't do either of those things. Fanboying is no reason to report someone. A legit report reason would be that he put this in the wrong section and he double posted a lot.

OT- Hiruzen has a lot of counters to EMS Madara techniques actually. He loses by feats though. But we don't know what would happen.

nicely put
 

DrProof

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Hmm...good point. I believe he was referring to EMS Madara. In that case, I don't see how Hiruzen can get through PS with Multiple Clone RDS...

Susano'o is the users chakra correct? RDS seals things. If the sealing jutsu comes into contact with the users chakra (Susano'o) then that half or portion of their chakra is sealed within RDS never returning back to them. (Like the Kyuubi's Yin chakra).
 

Erin

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I couldn't read much of this post to be honest. Anyhow to address the bold. We aren't sure RDS can't penetrate Susano'o from your perspective..

Susano'o is a pure chakra coating the users body correct? Why wouldn't a chakra based sealing jutsu (RDS) be able to seal the chakra used to make susano'o? After all the users chakra is displayed while performing the technique correct? So if RDS was used on Susano'o wouldn't Madara's chakra be sealed within the Death Reaper?

Oh, your right, but hiruzen still isn't surviving perfect susanoo blade/ kyuubi tbb no matter how many clones he has.
 

Saikyokami

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He wasn't trolling... lol. Trolling is posting nude pics/spamming pointless threads/flaming someone. He didn't do either of those things. Fanboying is no reason to report someone. A legit report reason would be that he put this in the wrong section and he double posted a lot.

OT- Hiruzen has a lot of counters to EMS Madara techniques actually. He loses by feats though. But we don't know what would happen.

Spam
Stupid
Pointless
Annoying
Material

Hiruzen is not as strong as people making him out to be hashirama just spiked his chakra and he almost had a heart attack madara is currently stronger than hashi because he has wood clones along with each having ps and rinnegan
what makes you think hiruzen who almost had a edo heart attack because hashi spiked his chakra can beat Madara who is stronger....

this thread is stupid and pointless and is just going to be filled with character bashing
fanboys are very annoying and oblivious to facts staring them in the face.
 

Untung

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Lets check the stronges hokage don't in power only, is about protecting village. Let flash back
1. when hiruzen got kage, he just whan to to be bait for the enemy.
2. When asuma dead, the 'king' is unborn child
3. Yes only hiruzen be kage twice (no one in village proper to be kage when 4th dead)

In my point of view this is the stronges hokage version from iruka, your page is iruka say.....
But for me kage ( in konoha ) is stronges not just power but the wisdom to, defrend from other village.

So stop debating hiruzen owning hashirama and tobirama.....
 

Da Best Ever

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all i knw is there has been 3 people called God of Shinobi, thats what wiki says, and Hiruzen is one of them, a lot of people say the manga is clearing a lot of part 1 up now well it still hasnt been said that Hashi is better than hiruzen, so as far as im concerned hiruzen is still the strongest but hashi is clearly the next in line
 

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Lets check the stronges hokage don't in power only, is about protecting village. Let flash back
1. when hiruzen got kage, he just whan to to be bait for the enemy.
2. When asuma dead, the 'king' is unborn child
3. Yes only hiruzen be kage twice (no one in village proper to be kage when 4th dead)

In my point of view this is the stronges hokage version from iruka, your page is iruka say.....
But for me kage ( in konoha ) is stronges not just power but the wisdom to, defrend from other village.

So stop debating hiruzen owning hashirama and tobirama.....

hashi is one of the most powerful ever but hiruzen is also one of the most powerful ever, these 4 edo hokage's are the strongest ninja in history nagato would be in the mix too of top 5
 

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Oh, your right, but hiruzen still isn't surviving perfect susanoo blade/ kyuubi tbb no matter how many clones he has.

That's debatable. Want me to go into detail how he is able to survive the said techniques?
 
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