Apologies accepted
Flaw logic of NB members Kuchiyose no Jutsu and Edo Tensei
- Thread starter KingHashirama
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Apologies accepted
Booker
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And its Gamabunta's choice if he wants to fight..
And since when does Kabuto have his edo army whenever he wants?
As i recall.. they all go Bye bye.
"All go Bye Bye". Please elaborate.
Gamabunta will always fight since this is a fictional story.
The Necromancer
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Ok. Answer me this. If Hiruzen walked up to sasuke, summoned enma, told him to kill sasuke, then walked away and took a nap. You would call that a victory for hiruzen? Correct?
SilverSlick
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Why wouldn't it be?
Trollnojutsu
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I can man up and admit when I make a mistake lol
Booker
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Of course it would be a victory for Hiruzen. Sasuke is dead.
The Necromancer
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And so then in the same hypothetical, Pain summoned konan against sasuke. Pain is the victor?
SilverSlick
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Kabuto's summons are nothing more than tools
Booker
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When did he ever get a summon for Konan? What are you talking about?
Trollnojutsu
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Except for the ones who break it and end up beating him, and then there's madara.
Waltz
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Your points are invalid, though the essence of your thread is quite obvious? Saukura would instantly become top teir (even surpassing naruto) if she possessed Kabuto's Edo tensei....that doesn't necessarily mean she's a skilled/gifted ninja, she just has an OP Technique. Oh and Edo's are summoned via kuchiyose just like regular summons Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei.
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KingHashirama
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Fictional story.. but how does that mean he will always fight? lmao.
Kabuto's edo tenseis are GONE... no more.....
HE says "pawns".. you say "tools".....
Since when do tools fight for you?
Tools = non-living things.
The pure concept of summoning is misunderstood on this base.
over 50% don't know that its a S/T technique.
Yes it's like if he was throwing a shuriken at Sasuke and killed him. It's nothing more than a tool, period.
Penguin
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if itachi wants to solo j-man at that time he can use a bloody amaterasu in his face at that bloody hall way
but he didn't
coz he loves konoha
J-Man could stomp Itachi.
The Necromancer
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I can't find the manga scan, but yes. He does. So an answer would be nice.
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Booker
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When has Gamabunta ever refused fighting for anyone?...
Right, because the 2nd Mizukage and 3rd Raikage were totally willing to fight with Kabuto, right?
Wrong.
Feel free to respond to my other post which contained most of my points.
Booker
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Scans first because I don't believe you.
Waltz
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How do you come by this?
KGB Kakuzu
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I will refute this. First off, Edo Tensei is still a Jutsu even if it is a summoning. Unlike regular summons, the object summoned in the case of Edo Tensei is not that of an animal, but instead another person.
Tobirama calling his own technique a Jutsu (mind you NOT a summoning), and thus validating my claim that Edo Tensei is still a Jutsu despite being that of a summoning technique.
One can easily say that a Shinobi's power can derive from their jutsu, and hence Edo Tensei is a jutsu they own.
However, I will go furhter.
Now, the concept of Edo Tensei's validation as that of being the user's power is that of a Paradox.
Paradox: a statement that while at first seems to condradict itself, upon further insight reveals a deeper meaning.
Edo Tensei being the Caster's own power is validated because they are taking the power of other people. Edo Tensei, as we know, allows one to sacrifice a soul in order to bring a deceased individual back from the dead. Upon doing so, the ressurected individual is under the complete control of the Caster's orders (unless you know how to break Edo Tensei or are Hashirama Senju). This leads to the concept that you labled "pawns".
Now, you said the deffinition of a pawn is as follows: One that can be used to further the purpose of another.
Key word is One. Why?! One is a generally vague term as it can apply to two different concepts.
One as in a numerical count of something.
One as in an individual.
The context One applies to for pawns can mean both. Can a Kunai not be one that can be used to furhter a purpose of another?! Can a fireball not be one that furthers the purpose of another. At the same time, can an individual not be used to further the purpose of another?!
The answer to all of these questions is yes. As such, One as it is used in the deffinition of Pawns can be defined as a person or a thing.
As such, the summoning of an Edo Tensei Pawn, is the equivelent of summoning a tool. As such, it is something that can be used to further the purpose of another. Because the Edo Tensei is the equivelent of a tool, the fight is still one vs one....because the tool, instead of a kunai, happens to be a moving war corpse.
You mention that the word control has several deffinitions: illusions, manipulation, and being the leader...I can even add cohersion into the deffinition. However, the type of control being implemented here is no different in design to that of a Puppet (something you have declared the user's power).
How?! Just because the practice is different doesn't mean the design of control is different. Puppet Masters control their puppets through chakra threads. Certain hand movements and gestures manipulate the Puppet into making an action, releasing a poison, or firing ninja tools. At the same time, the Caster of Edo Tensei, simply casts a command into the implanted talisman, and the Edo Tensei Body acts on the orders.
Your counter argument may be along the lines of as follows: The Edo Tensei uses their own unique techniques and powers of their own will....therefore they are not being commanded.
This is my counter argument as part of an analogy: Edo Tensei can be compared to a calculator. For example, on you own you can calculate 345 divided by 493; however, you will have to physically go through the process of finding dividends and then calculating decimals or a remainder. With a calculator, you simply type in the command of what you want, and the device does so for you.
The Puppets are like manually doing the division, and Edo Tensei is like the calculator. With the Puppets, the hand gestures is the equivelent of searching for the dividends and the remainders. With Edo Tensei...you type in what you want to have happen, and the Edo Tensei cuts the bulls*** and simply gets the work done without you having to do so.
But at the same time, Edo Tensei can even be used in the same manner as a Puppet, and this is through complete control: As seen when Kabuto took command of Nagato. He possesed Nagato, and then commanded him to use chibaku tensei. With the Jutsu's defeat, he simply had Nagato wait until he could see the enemy...because he didn't move Nagato (who had no self control or even Edo Commands control) he stood there and took the Totsuka blade. The Rinnegan is capable of seeing chakra, and Nagato had returned to his mobile form. Had he had the command of react to enemy attacks...he naturally would have used Shinra Tensei, Preta Path, or symple mobility to dodge the Susanoo. However, because he was directly responding to Kabuto's DIRECT controls...he stood still.
With that I will conclude. Edo Tensei is part of the user's power, and keeps a fight one on one because of the paradox, and conception of terms. A pawn can associate with both people and tools....since Edo Bodies are corpses and thus not truly people...they can be considered tools, the"One" is a vague term that can refer to both people and tools. As such, The Edo Body Tools are also once again validated as nothing more than a weapon. However, they are simply a more advanced type of tool that could be comparable to an Artificial Intelligence (such as Cortana from the Halo Series), and are capable of finding their own efficient solutions to one's simple commands.
So yes, Edo Tensei is Kabuto's power not because the techniques of the Edo Tensei Bodies are his to command, but because the Bodies themeselves are his to command. And as such, the Bodies, like a calculator, use the techniques and fighting strategies on their own volition in order to cut down the manual labor Kabuto himself has to do.....they are essentially the most EFICCIENT combat tools in the Narutoverse. And they can become tools, because you defined Puppets as tools...and since Kabuto can change them to directly respond to his every direct command...are the equivelent of Puppets and thus tools.
Once again, do not insult people's opinions and beliefs simply because they differ from you own. Every individual is entitled to his or her opinion. Condesending phrases such as, "Someone who thinks this way is a 5th grader," are simply ignorent and rude. However, as I just said, you are entitled to have the opinion that one who does think as such is a 5th grader, but you do not have the right to openly criticise and insult them despite thinking so. If you have nothing nice to say, simply say nothing at all.
As Kinkaku says, "Silence is Golden"
Tobirama calling his own technique a Jutsu (mind you NOT a summoning), and thus validating my claim that Edo Tensei is still a Jutsu despite being that of a summoning technique.
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One can easily say that a Shinobi's power can derive from their jutsu, and hence Edo Tensei is a jutsu they own.
However, I will go furhter.
Now, the concept of Edo Tensei's validation as that of being the user's power is that of a Paradox.
Paradox: a statement that while at first seems to condradict itself, upon further insight reveals a deeper meaning.
Edo Tensei being the Caster's own power is validated because they are taking the power of other people. Edo Tensei, as we know, allows one to sacrifice a soul in order to bring a deceased individual back from the dead. Upon doing so, the ressurected individual is under the complete control of the Caster's orders (unless you know how to break Edo Tensei or are Hashirama Senju). This leads to the concept that you labled "pawns".
Now, you said the deffinition of a pawn is as follows: One that can be used to further the purpose of another.
Key word is One. Why?! One is a generally vague term as it can apply to two different concepts.
One as in a numerical count of something.
One as in an individual.
The context One applies to for pawns can mean both. Can a Kunai not be one that can be used to furhter a purpose of another?! Can a fireball not be one that furthers the purpose of another. At the same time, can an individual not be used to further the purpose of another?!
The answer to all of these questions is yes. As such, One as it is used in the deffinition of Pawns can be defined as a person or a thing.
As such, the summoning of an Edo Tensei Pawn, is the equivelent of summoning a tool. As such, it is something that can be used to further the purpose of another. Because the Edo Tensei is the equivelent of a tool, the fight is still one vs one....because the tool, instead of a kunai, happens to be a moving war corpse.
You mention that the word control has several deffinitions: illusions, manipulation, and being the leader...I can even add cohersion into the deffinition. However, the type of control being implemented here is no different in design to that of a Puppet (something you have declared the user's power).
How?! Just because the practice is different doesn't mean the design of control is different. Puppet Masters control their puppets through chakra threads. Certain hand movements and gestures manipulate the Puppet into making an action, releasing a poison, or firing ninja tools. At the same time, the Caster of Edo Tensei, simply casts a command into the implanted talisman, and the Edo Tensei Body acts on the orders.
Your counter argument may be along the lines of as follows: The Edo Tensei uses their own unique techniques and powers of their own will....therefore they are not being commanded.
This is my counter argument as part of an analogy: Edo Tensei can be compared to a calculator. For example, on you own you can calculate 345 divided by 493; however, you will have to physically go through the process of finding dividends and then calculating decimals or a remainder. With a calculator, you simply type in the command of what you want, and the device does so for you.
The Puppets are like manually doing the division, and Edo Tensei is like the calculator. With the Puppets, the hand gestures is the equivelent of searching for the dividends and the remainders. With Edo Tensei...you type in what you want to have happen, and the Edo Tensei cuts the bulls*** and simply gets the work done without you having to do so.
But at the same time, Edo Tensei can even be used in the same manner as a Puppet, and this is through complete control: As seen when Kabuto took command of Nagato. He possesed Nagato, and then commanded him to use chibaku tensei. With the Jutsu's defeat, he simply had Nagato wait until he could see the enemy...because he didn't move Nagato (who had no self control or even Edo Commands control) he stood there and took the Totsuka blade. The Rinnegan is capable of seeing chakra, and Nagato had returned to his mobile form. Had he had the command of react to enemy attacks...he naturally would have used Shinra Tensei, Preta Path, or symple mobility to dodge the Susanoo. However, because he was directly responding to Kabuto's DIRECT controls...he stood still.
With that I will conclude. Edo Tensei is part of the user's power, and keeps a fight one on one because of the paradox, and conception of terms. A pawn can associate with both people and tools....since Edo Bodies are corpses and thus not truly people...they can be considered tools, the"One" is a vague term that can refer to both people and tools. As such, The Edo Body Tools are also once again validated as nothing more than a weapon. However, they are simply a more advanced type of tool that could be comparable to an Artificial Intelligence (such as Cortana from the Halo Series), and are capable of finding their own efficient solutions to one's simple commands.
So yes, Edo Tensei is Kabuto's power not because the techniques of the Edo Tensei Bodies are his to command, but because the Bodies themeselves are his to command. And as such, the Bodies, like a calculator, use the techniques and fighting strategies on their own volition in order to cut down the manual labor Kabuto himself has to do.....they are essentially the most EFICCIENT combat tools in the Narutoverse. And they can become tools, because you defined Puppets as tools...and since Kabuto can change them to directly respond to his every direct command...are the equivelent of Puppets and thus tools.
Once again, do not insult people's opinions and beliefs simply because they differ from you own. Every individual is entitled to his or her opinion. Condesending phrases such as, "Someone who thinks this way is a 5th grader," are simply ignorent and rude. However, as I just said, you are entitled to have the opinion that one who does think as such is a 5th grader, but you do not have the right to openly criticise and insult them despite thinking so. If you have nothing nice to say, simply say nothing at all.
As Kinkaku says, "Silence is Golden"
KingHashirama
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I said he can :sy:
what the hell are you talking about? Kabuto manipulated their minds......still doesn't make 3rd Raikage's power Kabuto's own.
i'm pretty sure i did respond.
1. All summonings are "Jutsus"..... no clue where you got they aren't.
2. Changing the facts requires insults.
3. The Edos move on their own, Kabuto gives them the order of "attack" or "no". Puppets require strings and require hands to move them. Don't even try to compare them, because you will fail
4. Your logic failed when you declared SOULS to be simple tools like Kunais
5. Edo tensei is a jutsu that summons the dead. Edo tensei the JUTSU ITSELF is part of the users power. But the ones summoned by Edo tensei are not.
6. If you had read that scan i posted about Kabuto, he stated "Pawns" plural form for Pawns. there for the "one" is changed to many. ;]
7. Pawns refer to living things. Unless you are talking about chess pieces. Your choice, if you wanna manipulate words like 'Derp Obito' and that one other guy.
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