[Discussion] Admiral vs Yonko
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Rikudou Tobi
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Usually If it was a extreme high diff battle then they would be in the same tier. Like pretimeskip Akainu and Aokiji despite the fact that Akainu is slightly stronger than Aokiji.
My point is that I'm not concerned on the difficulty of the fight but by no means is it high diff from what I'm seeing so far (pre gear four luffy vs dogtooth), so he's still losing to Dogtooth in a straight one on one match.
Dogtooth was able to
(1)keep up with G2's speed (Dofy barely did, he only dodged once if memory serves me right)
(2) Overpower G3's power (Dofy could not so he dodges it and take advantage of g3's weakness)
(3) And match if not best luffy's haki in some occasion. That plus an awakened devil fruit ability on par with Doflamingo.
So all we have left is Gear 4 and how he handles that, but even Cracker was able to survive Gear4 longer than Dofy did.
Dęvîa Puęrî
Active member
Dude wtf are you talking about doffy is way faster then gear 4th.. and gear 3 had good amount of strength but he chose to just dodge it why does that make him weak can we please stop acting as if he's weak as ****
Because he still is the hardesst fight luffy has had since the time skoo regardless of who's stronger the fact still stands that he's the only one to tank multiple gear 4th attacks for over 20 min straight and then get another g4 attack assult on top of it. And to top it off hes the only person to be bit with luffy strongest attack to date
You guys as well as the rest of the base stop acting as if dog tooth is in a different bracket then doffy because he isn't. at best hes compared to Marco and still Marco is not that stronger then jozu vista and the rest of the commanders. Sure they are the top of the bracket (which is under admirals and yonko mihawk etc) but still same bracket netherless. (This goes for smoothies lame ass and cracker who was cool I hope he gets more screen time in future)
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Rikudou Tobi
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Dofy is not faster than gear 4, not even yonkou commanders are faster than Gear 4. If Dofy was faster than Gear 4 then he would've never been hit by Luffy consecutively 5 times in a row. I'm not acting like he's weak asf, you're literally undermining Luffy's strength. Dofy cannot over power gear 3 blow for blow physically. Luffy attacked him twice with Gear 3 and he dodged it or used spider web to block it. You'd need to be a physical freak to overpower Gear 3 like Jozu like strength. Jinbei who is known to be the physically strongest warlord pretimskip (might be kuma idk) cannot take Gear 3 blow for blow like that, it's too big. Even Admiral Fujitori was sent flying back when he decided to block Gear 3 with his sword, and Admiral Fujitori is way superior than Luffy and would lose horribly to Fujitori in a fight. It's just a muscle kind of thing, and Doflamingo is strong but he's not physical bull like that.
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I don't think that fight was 20 minutes, Luffy was too weakened to maintain it. And the only person that fought Luffy longer in Gear 4 with his stronger hits was Cracker not Dofy. If you count how many times Luffy hit Doflamingo in their fight in Gear 4 was only 6 times.
This is wrong. Dogtooth is way stronger than Dofy, not even in the same level. I agree that Dofy is in the same bracket as Jozu, Vista, smoothie, Cracker and Ace which is warlord level. But People like Mihawk, Dogtooth, and Marco should not be compared to Doflaimngo. They're in their own league. I know you're a doflamingo fan but we need to be reasonable here.
Vandenre1ch
Active member
You know what I mean. The typical top 3 commanders of a yonkou crew. All in the same ballpark with high/extreme diffs all around.
Vandenre1ch
Active member
First of all, there is no warlord level. Its completely non existent and the fact that the actual warlords greatly fluctuates in strength proves its not a level. Its like saying Bobbin & Tamago are "yonko crew" level.
Katakuri and Marco aren't in a league of their own. Only the admirals & yonko aka top tiers can be said to be in a league of their own. Katakuri & Marco would have a very hard time against other commanders and Mingo. Mingo was stronger than G4 but lost cause he kept making bad calls, not knowing what G4 could do. Cracker outlasted G4 without getting a scratch.
Hell, Katakuri showed speeds around G2 level at best. G2 Luffy legitimately dodged Katakuri's attack but Kata used his foresight to see where Luffy was going and tagged him. Now Kata can hardly hit Base Luffy(who Mingo had a legit brawl with when both were hurt) with awakening now that Luffy knows how Kata's foresight works. All YCs had special qualities and weaknesses. Its all about who's stronger overall.
Uzumaki Macho
Active member
Though I agree that both are the strongest FORCES in the OPverse, I have heard multiple claims and hints from characters in the manga that edge yonko over the admirals. One example of this would be the position of Pirate King itself. Roger was said to be rivaled by a yonko (WB) during his reign, but never an admiral (Sengoku).
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The World Government deployed 2 forces to Stop a yonko (WB), which were the Navy (Headed by all 3 admirals) and the Shichibukai. Even looking at this objectively you come to the conclusion that the Marines NEEDED 3 admirals to stop 1 Yonko. If the level of strength was equal across the board then I would imagine Kizaru and Aokiji would have been more than capable of dealing with Shanks when he arrived, since Akainu was the main admiral who fought Whitebeard. If we reverse the conditions and you had Big Mom, Whitebeard, and Shanks ready to challenge one of the pre-TS Admirals most people would call that overkill, even if they didnt attack all at once.
Also, one of the biggest factors that lead me to my conclusion is that every single yonko is hyped and shown with ability that is unlike anything that any other charcter in the series possesses. Often unparralled hype and feats:
Whitebeard: Single Handedly had the power to destroy the WORLD + Rival (in his youth) to the Pirate King
Shanks: Hyped to have the most powerful Haki in the Series + Pre-Yonko was rival to WGS with only one Arm.
Big Mom: Unpenatrable Defense + Manipulation of ALL elements + Killed a Giant King at the age 8
Kaido: Unkillable + Strongest Creature in the world
There is more to this list but Im sure you understand my point.
I dont understand (If you are coming from an Objective view) how you can say that the Yonko vary to much with their strength and weaknesses as if the Admirals do not.
- IMO when it was shown that Aokiji and Akainu battled over the stutus of Fleet Admiral, that concreted in most peoples mind that Kizaru was the weaker of the 3. I believed that it was also oda's intention by leaving Kizaru out of it. I understand this is not a objective position but from context of the story this is what most readers gathered.
- You cant condemn the rage of Big Mom and not condemn Kizaru's laziness. That could also be seen as a weakness is battle.
- Also by clues in the manga,
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I think at this point in the manga, we have recieved more than enought proof that the yonko are superior to the admirals in power. Now if the manga challeneges my ideas in the coming story i am willing to change my mind, but it seems almost obvious at this point.
SN: The only Navy Soldier who has been illustrated in the story as being on the same level as Yonko is Monkey D. Garp.
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Vandenre1ch
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When did I say that? Is G4 like a level cap for people who are "YC level"? I mean, I've yet to see what's so great about G4 minus the hype factor people get to overrate it, hoping to see G4 have a real fight with someone. Mingo went toe-to-toe with G4 for minutes and every time he got hit was due to poor judgement. Mingo underestimated its attack power and got hit, underestimated its durability and got hit, overestimated his won attack power and got it. Cracker's real body could have a haki clash with G4 and kept it at bay without getting a scratch. Hell, BM blocked Kong Gun with her forearm without a scratch, bruise or even budged.
1. The excitement for Gear 4th is the fact that it is powerful (in terms of increasing strength and speed) as seen when Luffy fought Doflomingo. Though I agree with you that Doflamingo's underestimation of Gear 4 was what contributed to his "L", the difference in strength and speed that luffy had while in Gear 4 compared to what he could do in his other gears was MASSIVE!! It put him on a different level of power.
2. I dont know if I would call what Doffy did against Gear 4 "going toe-to-toe". Doffy literally had no counter or solution to the strength, speed, and durability of Gear 4. It was only after Luffy was expired that Doflamingo had a chance again, and once Luffy entered the state the 2nd time Doflamingo used his Trump Card attack and defence backed also by his awakening and still fell short to Gear 4ths Power.
3. Cracker never attacked Gear 4 head on and Luffy everytime he made contact with the buscuit soilders in Gear 4 destroyed them or their shields. The one time Cracker used his real body to attack Luffy in Gear 4, Luffy complete stopped crakers
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(which is suppose to by luffys weakness) and hit crackers main body with enough force to not only KO him but destroy all the buscuit soldiers behind cracker and project him all the way back to BM's castle (which is reasonably miles away).4. I dont see how you can compare the strength and durability of Doffy and Cracker to that of a Yonko. BM is suppose to be unphased by a simple Kong Gun, she is a Yonko. The gap in Luffy and BM's (and other yonko) is suppose to still be huge or else the story would be coming to a close. You cant use BM's strength to UNDERPLAY gear 4th's strength, this entire arc was done in part to clearly illustrate how far luffy has to go to surpass or rival a yonko.
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Vandenre1ch
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1. Luffy's inevitable fight with a yonko is one of the reasons he gets overrated. "The stronger they make a character seem, they more likely they are to see something epic in their minds." Luffy's clash with BM proves that Luffy isn't there yet and Luffy still can't stop a yonko's underlings without handicaps. Its like that Yonko>>Admirals, Zoro>all, G4>YCs faction. All they want is to see something cool and overrating a characters keeps their hype in check and increases expectations.
2. With Mingo & Cracer, Luffy had handicaps in his favor. For Mingo, its cause he kept making bad calls(like for KKG, Mingo saw it coming but thought God Thread could overpower it). For 20 minutes, Mingo stalemated G4 and pushed G4 to the defensive. For Cracker, he was nerfed while Luffy was buffed and for 11 hours, Luffy couldn't capitalize until Cracker lost patience and tried stabbing Tankman without haki. Cracker's CQC is underestimated.
3. Cracker did clash with G4 head on. Cracker himself tried stabbing Luffy after Organ and there was an unseen haki clash in the woods. All you could see was the black sparks, indicating a clash and Cracker didn't have a scratch when we saw him again. Luffy also never stopped Pretzel Roll. Luffy bleed and it sent him flying through trees.
4. My answer to this above at #1.
Rikudou Tobi
Active member
Too bad there is so deal with it.
Fanfic and only a dumbass would say that Dofy is stronger than Gear 4 luffy since Luffy was smacking him around the whole island.
Gear 4>>>>Doflamingo.
Don't care what you're saying here because all you do is complain about how your feelings get hurt everytime I debunk all your theories you keep pushing. Stop quoting me, I don't care about anything you think. Only Oda.
Vandenre1ch
Active member
Too bad there isn't unless you think Mihawk, Mingo, Jinbe, Hancock, Kuma, Croc, Weevil, Yami Teach, Law & Buggy are all the same level.
Tried being nice but the reply is expected from someone who thinks Sabo=Fujitora and resorts to degrading others 24/7 like some keyboard warrior....can you give ONE decent replay or counter argument without having to scream about how "intellectual" you are?
Never said Mingo was stronger so calm down with your headcannon. Its a fact that Mingo kept underestimating Luffy. Denying this means you don't know what underestimation is and should refrain from posting.
You said you have to care? You're the one with the reputation of being a keyboard warrior who thinks everything he says is fact. And of course, all too classic "I debunked everything you said!!" trope. Classic keyboard warrior 101.
Sabo=Fujitora
Dying WB>Akainu
Prime WB>Akainu+Aokiji
G4>>>Mingo
Mihawk & Croc are the same level
Great facts you have here.
I agree that a characters projected strength can cause characters to be overhyped. We see this with Zoro, Luffy at times, Dragon, and Sabo. But your statements make it seem as though Luffy's G4 is nothing impressive. As if it does not grant him strength that would allow him to go toe-to-toe with yonko commanders (even if he loses). I guess the point im trying to make is that Luffy's progress to this new power is what excites people, and to discredit the gear as if it is nothing special and that he only wins because of handicaps is doing the exact opposite of what the people who overhype him are doing. It make you seem like you are underrating him.
I dont know if you could use hanicaps for Luffy's battle with doflamingo. Both Luffy and Doflamingo had hadicaps that the other could take advantage of, and you seem biased when you only point out luffy's and not Doffy's. To another point, whatever handicap you are claiming luffy had does not take away from the fact that Gear 4 was superior to Doffy in terms of strength, speed, and durability.
One way you can look at this is as such: If Doffy provided luffy with those same handicaps while luffy was just using Gear 2 or Gear 3, even if luffy connected clean shots on Doffy, it would not have come close to the same amount of man-handling that Gear 4th accomplished.
As I already said, I agree with you that Doffy underestimated luffy greatly in G4, but that can not be used to say that is the only reason Luffy beat Doffy. Antagonist underestimating the protagonist is a staple formula in all on shonen mangas, but we do not accredit the protagonist victory to only be the luck of a handicap of underestimation.
Because [
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] is off panel, I cant tell you whether or not that was a direct contact or if it was the presence of the 2 fighters. And to your last sentence, that was not G4 luffy.
Vandenre1ch
Active member
I'm simply G4 isn't the YC destroyer people try to make it out be. His further abilities is irrelevant when it comes to discussing his ability in the past. Luffy would've lost to Mingo & Cracker even with the handicaps. If Mingo decided to dodge KKG, G4 would've worn off and Luffy would die. Hell, if the gladatos & Viola didn't distract Mingo, Luffy never would've recovered from the first G4. Cracker would've won in the end if he was more patient.
However, people only care about the victories and act like everything else that happened is irrelevant. They still say G4 was superior to Cracker & Mingo. Can it tussle with YCs? Of course it can. Can it win without handicaps at the moment? No since we twice saw G4 would've lost without them.
You can use handicaps. Its mandatory if you want to have a chance of having decent discussions. Most people on this forum take things at face value to overrate characters. You having people sayign Fuji & Sabo are equal, Mingo>Fuji because he didn't try to stop him, Dying WB>Akainu because of a sneak attack etc..
Both Luffy & Mingo were hurt before their final battle. It was Mingo who kept underestimating Luffy, not the other way around. How can I bring up Luffy's handicaps when he had none? Separate stats doesn't make someone stronger overall. Marco has yet to display good attack power, Katakuri is being dodged by Base Luffy, only great thing about Jack right now is his endurance etc.. Out of the YCs, Cracker & Jozu has the best defense, Mingo has the best mobility...hell, Luffy has displayed more attack power & speed than almost all YCs right now but he can't beat any legit at the moment.
It doesn't matter if an antagonist trope is common in shonen. Lucci for example defeated Luffy twice but instead of finishing him off, he wanted to teach Luffy despair which cost him the fight. That doesn't make Luffy stronger. It makes him lucky. If Luffy defeats Katakuri because he boasted he could stop KKG but was wrong, that means Katakuri was stronger but Luffy won via circumstance.
It was G4. It occurred after Cracker lunged at Luffy after organ. Those sparks only happen with haki clashes as seen with Chinjao & Mingo.
Hoshigaki Sama
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Dęvîa Puęrî
Active member
Rikudou Tobi
Active member
I never said Buggy, Teach, and Mihawk were on the same level as those guys you dumbass.
No you made no effort at all, all you do is cry about how you get insulted after you finish insulting somebody who doesn't agree with your opinion. You're annoying and act like a child just because your voice wasn't heard by someone plausible who doesn't give a shit about what you think. Simple as that
See how much of an annoying idiot you are? You think I can't pick up on your lies?
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You never debunked anything, I always trash your idiotic post and then you complain about your feelings getting hurt. I always beat you so you have no right of getting high and mighty over hear. I even get +rep from people everytime I debunk that dumb shit you keep saying. Not once have you every use the manga. It's always "i feel like this is right therefore it's right," that headcannon you keep forcing people to believe.
1. Deal with it Fujitori called the fight off
2. Dying whitbeard knocked Akainu head down to the ground. So what idiot would say that Akainu is stronger? He had to tunnel his way from underground after getting beaten.
3. I never said prime Whitebeard is stronger than Aokiji and Akaini, stupid.
4. Doflamingo was unconscious after getting hit by Luffy. So those are some great facts right there. Why does your Vanderpiece show Doflamingo killing Luffy in their fight?
5. I said Mihawk is Yonkou level you moron.
Sad and pathetic. Stop wasting my time.
Rikudou Tobi
Active member
Oh okay. Well Doflamingo said that Gear 2 was faster but it was too weak in power for him.
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Luffy was able to tag dofy in a volley, deflect doffy's bullet strings with hawk whip, and hit Dofy with jet bazooka once (the second time he dodged it). The only people I know who out sped post time skip Luffy's Gear 2 is Dogtooth. So I think yonkou firstmates level people are the ones that are capable of beating G2 speed and beating G3 luffy's power for power at the same time like Dogtooth did. Those would be people like Marco, Jack(maybe), Dogtooth, Benn Beckman and up type of level.
