Yata Mirror VS. Kamui

[Owarij]

@Bold: exactly my point, that goes against your argument.

???What are you talking about... The only part of my argument I compared kamui with sharingan genjutsu was to explain the chakra propelling...nothing else...the mechanics of how he sends chakra to a target follows how an uchiha would send chakra to a place or person with their eyes.. Of course i'm not saying kamui is exactly like sharingan genjutsu.. that makes no sense does it?

 

[Avery Uchiha]

Ok...Both the Kamui's are different. One is a close range, defense/movement while the other is a long range attack. They were made to be a pair and to balance out but they must work differently. Also nobody here can know exactly how they work since this is Kishi's manga.

 

[fastrthnwind]

???What are you talking about... The only part of my argument I compared kamui with sharingan genjutsu was to explain the chakra propelling...nothing else...the mechanics of how he sends chakra to a target follows how an uchiha would send chakra to a place or person with their eyes.. Of course i'm not saying kamui is exactly like sharingan genjutsu.. that makes no sense does it?

Your reasoning directly implies that kamui cant be cast on oneself because the chakra has to be sent to a target to be effective, just like genjutsu, yet kamui has been demonstrated several times that it can be cast on the user with the dimensional rift originating from the eye itself. that is what makes no sense.

 

[Owarij]

That would mean that he wouldn't need to propel the chakra in order to use Kamui on himself, even if he made just in front of himself. You are implying that he doesn't need to propel chakra to use on himself if he is only putting the barrier directly in front of himself, when by your definition it has to travel "some" distance anyways.

The barrier summoning originates from his eye, and because of that he can project the barrier from the eye wherever he wants to by focusing on any specific target.

Obviously he doesn't need to propel it if his target is himself.. he only needs to initate and use the jutsu... Kakashi's ability can be used in any range.. short or long... he has choice.. obito's is different.. he can use it on his body parts similar to how kakuzu can selectively harden certain parts.. the chakra already exists in their body...

 

[Owarij]

Your reasoning directly implies that kamui cant be cast on oneself because the chakra has to be sent to a target to be effective, just like genjutsu

KK, now you're bsing.. how many times must I say, the only comparable part of kamui and genjutsu is how the chakra reaches the target when being propelled.... I never said kamui is exactly like genjutsu.. that's stupid.. when I was explaining how kakashi opens a barrier at a location, I used the explanation of sharingan genjutsu which sends chakra to a location

 

[Avery Uchiha]

Your reasoning directly implies that kamui cant be cast on oneself because the chakra has to be sent to a target to be effective, just like genjutsu, yet kamui has been demonstrated several times that it can be cast on the user with the dimensional rift originating from the eye itself. that is what makes no sense.

Geez, he's implying the users chakra must be at the spot where the Kamui forms. He would have no need to cast it on himself since they're chakra is inside them but to target someone else the chakra must be sent.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

That depends. Is chakra expelled in kakashi's eye and then his eye creates the wormhole? Or is kakashi's chakra shot out of his eye and its is chakra that creates the wormhole?

Kinda like amaterasu. Is chakra in the flames of amaterasu? Or is chakra depleted in the users eyes to create the flames?

In kakashi's case i think the chakra is burned up in his eye and the eye makes the hole.

 

[fastrthnwind]

Obviously he doesn't need to propel it if his target is himself.. he only needs to initate and use the jutsu... Kakashi's ability can be used in any range.. short or long... he has choice.. obito's is different.. he can use it on his body parts similar to how kakuzu can selectively harden certain parts.. the chakra already exists in their body...

But it has to go to the eye first to actually use the jutsu because kamui is a MS technique.

You stated that he makes a barrier in front of himself in order to warp himself and you just changed it to saying he doesn't need chakra anymore.

That depends. Is chakra expelled in kakashi's eye and then his eye creates the wormhole? Or is kakashi's chakra shot out of his eye and its is chakra that creates the wormhole?

Kinda like amaterasu. Is chakra in the flames of amaterasu? Or is chakra depleted in the users eyes to create the flames?

In kakashi's case i think the chakra is burned up in his eye and the eye makes the hole.

Its the first definition you mentioned. The eye uses the chakra to open up a barrier. if it was expelled to the target, then kakashi could do it without his eye.

 

[Owarij]

You stated that he makes a barrier in front of himself in order to warp himself and you just changed it to saying he doesn't need chakra anymore.

what???????????? OF course he needs chakra..you need chakra for any ability ....Kakashi can teleport himself using two methods... either making a barrier infront of himself to get sucked in.. or simply not propelling it at all and activating the ability , ie making the barrier in his eye itself

Its the first definition you mentioned. The eye uses the chakra to open up a barrier. if it was expelled to the target, then kakashi could do it without his eye.

The original argument was about whether kakashi shoots the chakra out or it appears out of nowhere... I was arguing about that..

You brought up a totally different argument i.e self warping which obviously has nothing to do with chakra being propelled.. unless he wants to do it in the method of making a barrier infront of himself

 

[fastrthnwind]

what???????????? OF course he needs chakra..you need chakra for any ability ....Kakashi can teleport himself using two methods... either making a barrier infront of himself to get sucked in.. or simply not propelling it at all and activating the ability , ie making the barrier in his eye itself



The original argument was about whether kakashi shoots the chakra out or it appears out of nowhere... I was arguing about that..

You brought up a totally different argument i.e self warping which obviously has nothing to do with chakra being propelled.. unless he wants to do it in the method of making a barrier infront of himself

The point is that the barrier originates within the eye itself. There is no chakra propelled out to a target.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

But it has to go to the eye first to actually use the jutsu because kamui is a MS technique.

You stated that he makes a barrier in front of himself in order to warp himself and you just changed it to saying he doesn't need chakra anymore.



Its the first definition you mentioned. The eye uses the chakra to open up a barrier. if it was expelled to the target, then kakashi could do it without his eye.

I'm not making an argument i'm asking. I run into the same situation with ama users. Is chakra in the flames or is chakra burned up by/in the eye to create the flames?

 

[fastrthnwind]

I'm not making an argument i'm asking. I run into the same situation with ama users. Is chakra in the flames or is chakra burned up by/in the eye to create the flames?

I understand. Im just explaining how it works to you and why the second definition wouldnt make sense.

Amaterasu works the exact same way: chakra is used up in the eye and will cause the flames to appear.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

what???????????? OF course he needs chakra..you need chakra for any ability ....Kakashi can teleport himself using two methods... either making a barrier infront of himself to get sucked in.. or simply not propelling it at all and activating the ability , ie making the barrier in his eye itself



The original argument was about whether kakashi shoots the chakra out or it appears out of nowhere... I was arguing about that..

You brought up a totally different argument i.e self warping which obviously has nothing to do with chakra being propelled.. unless he wants to do it in the method of making a barrier infront of himself

Actually now that you think about it the chakra is burned/used by the eye. I think this is proven when kakashi released bee from the pocked dimension. Had chakra been propelled from the eye bee would have came out from a wormhole created by his eye(a few feet away or as far as kakashi desires) and not directly from his eye.

Don't question my logic.

 

[Owarij]

The point is that the barrier originates within the eye itself. There is no chakra propelled out to a target.

You do realize you have no point?

If Kakashi wishes to hit a long range target, he must propel the chakra to a point..

If he is using it on himself, he doesn't need to propel his chakra.. he hass a full body of chakra.. he needs on mould and use the ability..

This doesn't change the FACT, That an ability can't be used before chakra is molded and its initiated..

According to the databook, when the jutsu begins, the barrier appears.. anything before that, means its not part of the jutsu itself, but the pre initation of it... Chakra has no space time properties.. you can't just make it appear anywhere.. it isn't a s/t jutsu untill the jutsu is activated

Claiming that a ninja can make chakra randomly appear somewhere before even using a jutsu is going against every basic principle in the manga and illogical assumption that is impossible to prove by burden of proof standards

 

[fastrthnwind]

Actually now that you think about it the chakra is burned/used by the eye. I think this is proven when kakashi released bee from the pocked dimension. Had chakra been propelled from the eye bee would have came out from a wormhole created by his eye(a few feet away or as far as kakashi desires) and not directly from his eye.

Don't question my logic.

??? Dat logic... I question it!

 

[fastrthnwind]

You do realize you have no point?

If Kakashi wishes to hit a long range target, he must propel the chakra to a point..

If he is using it on himself, he doesn't need to propel his chakra.. he hass a full body of chakra.. he needs on mould and use the ability..

This doesn't change the FACT, That an ability can't be used before chakra is molded and its initiated..

According to the databook, when the jutsu begins, the barrier appears.. anything before that, means its not part of the jutsu itself, but the pre initation of it... Chakra has no space time properties.. you can't just make it appear anywhere.. it isn't a s/t jutsu untill the jutsu is activated

Claiming that a ninja can make chakra randomly appear somewhere before even using a jutsu is going against every basic principle in the manga and illogical assumption that is impossible to prove by burden of proof standards

He doesnt make any chakra appear AT ALL. There is no chakra involved anywhere near the barrier. The only chakra involved is the chakra used by the eye in order to form the barrier.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

You do realize you have no point?

If Kakashi wishes to hit a long range target, he must propel the chakra to a point..

If he is using it on himself, he doesn't need to propel his chakra.. he hass a full body of chakra.. he needs on mould and use the ability..

This doesn't change the FACT, That an ability can't be used before chakra is molded and its initiated..

According to the databook, when the jutsu begins, the barrier appears.. anything before that, means its not part of the jutsu itself, but the pre initation of it... Chakra has no space time properties.. you can't just make it appear anywhere.. it isn't a s/t jutsu untill the jutsu is activated

Claiming that a ninja can make chakra randomly appear somewhere before even using a jutsu is going against every basic principle in the manga and illogical assumption that is impossible to prove by burden of proof standards

Wouldn't that mean it's two different techs when kakashi specifically said its one?

 

[Owarij]

He doesnt make any chakra appear AT ALL. There is no chakra involved anywhere near the barrier. The only chakra involved is the chakra used by the eye in order to form the barrier.

ALL you are doing is saying the same statement over and over without supplying any sort of proof whatsoever.. You're asserting the claim that he makes the barrier appear where ever he looks... Ive already went into detail on how that is imposible, using databook scans.. If you're going to make a claim, the burden of proof is on you

If we''re going to debate, lets do it right, instead of simply rejecting the statement of the other and stating yours.. it's pointless and will go on for hours...Explain you deductive and analytical reasoning behind your statement

Wouldn't that mean it's two different techs when kakashi specifically said its one?

Have you seen obito shoot out a barrier to warp someone or something yet?

You think if he could , he'd of done that to fu and torune rather than go out of his way to touch them?

Yea , that's your answer......It's obvious the two abilities operate using similar mechanics and are interconnected but they are different jutsu

 

[BenjerminGaye]

ALL you are doing is saying the same statement over and over without supplying any sort of proof whatsoever.. You're asserting the claim that he makes the barrier appear where ever he looks... Ive already went into detail on how that is imposible, using databook scans.. If you're going to make a claim, the burden of proof is on you

If we''re going to debate, lets do it right, instead of simply rejecting the statement of the other and stating yours.. it's pointless and will go on for hours...Explain you deductive and analytical reasoning behind your statement

What about amaterasu? It follows the same principles yet when viewed by the byakugan it doesn't have chakra in it....i think (might be wrong)

 

[Owarij]

What about amaterasu? It follows the same principles yet when viewed by the byakugan it doesn't have chakra in it....i think (might be wrong)

I can't comment on amaterasu, some scans show travel, some show materialization