Yata Mirror VS. Kamui

[fastrthnwind]

Kamuis chakra is not explicitly stated to be "sent" over any sort of distance to form the s/t barrier that is kamui. It simply appears out of nothing. Cant block something that can appear anywhere from nothing.

Only another s/t jutsu has the capability to stop a s/t jutsu.

 

[Draphsin]

Still not understanding that' i'm not talking about the mechanics of the jutsu themselves, but the principle behind them, which is the chakra... I'm talking about before the jutsu is even CAST, You're assuming that somehow, just because they have sharingan, they can make chakra itself appear at certain places, THEN activate the SPACE TIME jutsu, Then cause the thing to materialize... all in all it makes no sense... The chakra sent by genjusu is sent in a path, Yamanaka's? send their chakra to you in a path to use their mind body disturbance.....Why are you assuming kakashi somehow makes his chakra appear in the spot? this is before any space time ability is even cast, this is the manipulation of chakra we're talking about here

So what youre saying is that chakra moves through the air from the eye to its target?

I guess that makes sense but the fact still remains that the jutsu can still warp yata mirror

 

[Space Cowboy]

Still not understanding that' i'm not talking about the mechanics of the jutsu themselves, but the principle behind them, which is the chakra... I'm talking about before the jutsu is even CAST, You're assuming that somehow, just because they have sharingan, they can make chakra itself appear at certain places, THEN activate the SPACE TIME jutsu, Then cause the thing to materialize... all in all it makes no sense... The chakra sent by genjusu is sent in a path, Yamanaka's? send their chakra to you in a path to use their mind body disturbance.....Why are you assuming kakashi somehow makes his chakra appear in the spot? this is before any space time ability is even cast, this is the manipulation of chakra we're talking about here

Take it up with Kishi if you dont like the sound of it, but that is exactly what im saying. This is the MS, which has the strongest techniques in the manga. This is how theyre shown to operate. I dont know what else to tell you. Amaterasu = instantaneous materialization. How something instant can travel doesnt make much sense to me. The same holds true for kamui, which functions very similar to Amaterasu and has been shown to operate at extreme speeds as well. I never once said that the chakra appears before they initialize the jutsu? Obviously the chakra and whatever it is that is done with it, starts with the activation of the technique. And again, it all comes from it being a S/T jutsu, that is different than FTG or any others we have seen

 

[Space Cowboy]

Why have you not brought the databook into this yet?

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It implies that kamui is cast on a target, just like ama

Lol thank you, i dont know where to find those pages

 

[Sea Of Thy Soul]

kamui could be yin or yang..?

 

[Owarij]

Why have you not brought the databook into this yet?

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It implies that kamui is cast on a target, just like ama

And where does it imply that? do remember I never denied kamui appears at a spot... I am denying that BEFORE the technique is even invoke, you have to put your chakra in a certain spot, THEN invoke the technique..

Actually, thanks for the scan.. The databook just proved my point.. It says that when the technique is invoked the SPACE is distorted.. meaning there is no pre-phase of this jutsu.. Why are you applying space time properties to the handelling of chakra? the s/t jutsu is kamui itself.. the handling of the chakra, is not a space time ability, thus can't just appear out of nowhere


If you're going to posit that Kamui, the ms ability , allows the wielder to make their chakra appear at a spot , then bend space/time there, then the burden of proof is on the person making the claim , considering chakra isn't something you just make apear, and chakra is the TOOL used to INITIATE jutsu.. thus its ludicrous to give pure chakra space time properties.. when the JUTSU wasn't even INITIATED yet.

What you're implying, is that the chakra itself has s/t abilities, as it is capable of appearing at a spot, which THEN activates and initializes the space time ability.. that makes absolutely no sense..

 

[fastrthnwind]

And where does it imply that? do remember I never denied kamui appears at a spot... I am denying that BEFORE the technique is even invoke, you have to put your chakra in a certain spot, THEN invoke the technique..

Actually, thanks for the scan.. The databook just proved my point.. It says that when the technique is invoked the SPACE is distorted.. meaning there is no pre-phase of this jutsu.. Why are you applying space time properties to the handelling of chakra? the s/t jutsu is kamui itself.. the handling of the chakra, is not a space time ability, thus can't just appear out of nowhere

It goes into the eye, because the EYE of the MS is what summons the s/t barrier. The more chakra put into it, the wider the barrier he can make

 

[Draphsin]

Lol thank you, i dont know where to find those pages

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[Space Cowboy]

And where does it imply that? do remember I never denied kamui appears at a spot... I am denying that BEFORE the technique is even invoke, you have to put your chakra in a certain spot, THEN invoke the technique..

Actually, thanks for the scan.. The databook just proved my point.. It says that when the technique is invoked the SPACE is distorted.. meaning there is no pre-phase of this jutsu.. Why are you applying space time properties to the handelling of chakra? the s/t jutsu is kamui itself.. the handling of the chakra, is not a space time ability, thus can't just appear out of nowhere


If you're going to posit that Kamui, the ms ability , allows the wielder to make their chakra appear at a spot , then bend space/time there, then the burden of proof is on the person making the claim , considering chakra isn't something you just make apear, and chakra is the TOOL used to INITIATE jutsu.. thus its ludicrous to give pure chakra space time properties.. when the JUTSU wasn't even INITIATED yet.

Never said the jutsu begins before its initialization.. And yeah, that page sadly did not prove anything either way

 

[Lilt]

If anything can counter Kamui, then it's the Yata Mirror.

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[Flawž]

yata mirror protect's against "property attacks". Kamui is space and Time jutsu.

So no it cannot.

otherwise Itachi would of made a move on Obito instead of his "fail safe"

 

[Draphsin]

It goes into the eye, because the EYE of the MS is what summons the s/t barrier. The more chakra put into it, the wider the barrier he can make

lol this actually makes a lot of sense

@Owarij: I have a question for you, if it takes chakra to be cast on a target before the teleportation begins, then explain how one uses kamui on himself.

Obito doesnt look at his entire body before he uses kamui (which is impossible anyways) and kakashi did the same thing to his body. Like you said, if it takes chakra to be focused on a certian spot, then where do obito/kakashi focus the chakra to warp themselves?

 

[Owarij]

So what youre saying is that chakra moves through the air from the eye to its target?

I guess that makes sense but the fact still remains that the jutsu can still warp yata mirror

Yes.. As you see in the databook
When kamui is Initiated, the s/t is activated, and dimension warping happens... That means, anything before kamui's initiation , cannot be a space time jutsu, as the jutsu is not activated yet...all you have is chakra , not yet molded into an ability.. and Chakra itself has no space time properties.. this is why even the yamanaka clan have to propel their chakra to the enemy to take them over..


That's as simple as I can explain that part..
Once everyone understands why it's impossible for chakra to attain space time properties, i'll move on with my next argument


Kamui works with the same principles of sharingan genjutsu, the chakra is propelled from the eye to the other person, but in this case, you focus on a spot, the chakra goes to that spot then the jutsu activates , sucking everything into the barrier in the given location, thus why kakashi missed deidara a few times.

 

[Draphsin]

If anything can counter Kamui, then it's the Yata Mirror.

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No see, kamui isnt an attack. Its a transportation technique, it doesnt attack yata mirror it transports it.

So if kamui is being focused on the mirror itself, then it would simply get sucked away.

Its the same concept as minato's FTG, just imagine that minato can place a seal on yata mirror, then he can simply teleport it right from susanoo's hands, how is it going to defend against something like that?

 

[Lilt]

But Sasuke is now trying to protect Konoha, which makes the shield and guardian aesthetic fit his Susanoo perfectly.

I think this is likely. Sasuke said he had Itachi's eyes, and their power now:

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They look rather similar:

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And his new Susano'o sword certainly has the extension properties of the Totsuka, at the very least...

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[fastrthnwind]

Yes.. As you see in the databook
When kamui is Initiated, the s/t is activated, and dimension warping happens... That means, anything before kamui's initiation , cannot be a space time jutsu, as the jutsu is not activated yet...all you have is chakra , not yet molded into an ability.. and Chakra itself has no space time properties.. this is why even the yamanaka clan have to propel their chakra to the enemy to take them over..


That's as simple as I can explain that part..
Once everyone understands why it's impossible for chakra to attain space time properties, i'll move on with my next argument

If that was the case, then he wouldn't need the eye to perform the technique because all he would need is to point his chakra in the right direction to cause a dimensional rift.

The MS is what actually SUMMONS the s/t barrier.

 

[Draphsin]

Yes.. As you see in the databook
When kamui is Initiated, the s/t is activated, and dimension warping happens... That means, anything before kamui's initiation , cannot be a space time jutsu, as the jutsu is not activated yet...all you have is chakra , not yet molded into an ability.. and Chakra itself has no space time properties.. this is why even the yamanaka clan have to propel their chakra to the enemy to take them over..


That's as simple as I can explain that part..
Once everyone understands why it's impossible for chakra to attain space time properties, i'll move on with my next argument


Kamui works with the same principles of sharingan genjutsu, the chakra is propelled from the eye to the other person, but in this case, you focus on a spot, the chakra goes to that spot then the jutsu activates , sucking everything into the barrier in the given location, thus why kakashi missed deidara a few times.

Post #52

How does one kamui themself if they have no target location to focus their chakra on?

 

[Lilt]

yata mirror protect's against "property attacks". Kamui is space and Time jutsu.

So no it cannot.

otherwise Itachi would of made a move on Obito instead of his "fail safe"

The manga and especially the movie Kishimoto wrote made it clear that Itachi was willing to fight Obito.

But that Obito (wisely) chose not to fight him. Hence Obito can teleport away (from 5 Kages, Itachi, etc.) but Itachi cannot.

 

[Owarij]

If that was the case, then he wouldn't need the eye to perform the technique because all he would need is to point his chakra in the right direction to cause a dimensional rift.

The MS is what actually SUMMONS the s/t barrier.

??? Of course he needs the eye, this is a mangekyou ability we're talking about.. but just like sharingan genjutsu, the chakra is propelled out through the eye...

It would be impossible for the chakra itself to operate under the properties of space time when no jutsu has been initalized

Post #52

How does one kamui himself if they have no target location to focus their chakra on?

Are we still talking about Kakashi here? because all he has to do is put a barrier right infront of himself and he'll get sucked in....
The mechanics of obito's juts is completely different to kakashi's, practically different abilities leading to the same place.. he can kamui parts of his body and what ever he touches by the activation of the ability.. considering his ability has no databook explanation, I imagine he has to channel chakra in his body to whatever part or parts he wants to turn intangible

Think of kakuzu's diamond skin, he channels the chakra to that part, and it becomes hard, or in tobi's case, is warped...


Of course, once again, he needs to initialize the jutsu with chakra to use it .... he wasn't fast enough to do this against Itachi's surprise post mortem attack

 

[Draphsin]

The manga and especially the movie Kishimoto wrote made it clear that Itachi was willing to fight Obito.

But that Obito (wisely) chose not to fight him. Hence Obito can teleport away (from 5 Kages, Itachi, etc.) but Itachi cannot.

Dont use the movie as canon evidence, and anyways obito called itachi "troublesome" with MS, while on the other hand he called shikamaru "regrettable" with his rinnegan.

??? Of course he needs the eye, this is a mangekyou ability we're talking about.. but just like sharingan genjutsu, the chakra is propelled out through the eye...

It would be impossible for the chakra itself to operate under the properties of space time when no jutsu has been initalized

You cant cast genjutsu on yourself, however with kamui you can....