He was a rear admiral before becoming a pirate.
His strength pre TS against Pacifista can't be ignored,
He also single handedly stopped a rebellion started by Caribou and it destroyed the whole area,
Defeated kaido's underling pre TS just to meet him,
Survived Bird Cage etc.
He hasn't shown much but hype wise he is definitely in top 5 currently.
The difference is we know Luffy didn't take down Doffy alone. It's possible that Urouge had help his crew would have been with him. It would be fair to put Urouge and Luffy on the same level.
Not really. For one thing, teleporting>any speed Gear Fourth could ever produce. Secondly, Doflamingo was able to keep up with Gear Fourth's speed on multiple occasions, and Law was able to keep pace with Doflamingo in close combat assaults. There's also the fact that Law can take high advantage of the large gaps/hang time in Luffy's Gear Third and Gear Fourth assaults, since he has one of the highest displays of stamina/endurance with how much damage he took in Dressrosa and was able to still keep it pushing.
From now one, I don't wanna see either of you talking about how Garp, Whitebeard, and Roger all fought with each other 1 vs 1. From now on, "Whitebeard matched Roger" and "Garp and Roger almost killed each other" ain't 1 v 1s no more, their crews were involved because we didn't see the fights and what happened in Dressrosa. Let's see how hypocritical you two will be.
doffy could keep up but luffy was still faster for the time he was in G4. If law was as effective as he is with his room he wouldnt have gotten destroyed by doffy. he shouldve been able to put up a much better fight, law hasnt shown that he would effective after taking G4 level hits. YOu are judging law's hax based on theory, yes his powers are soo hax that he should technically be able to surprise and beat some characters above his class but oda doesnt make his powers as hax as it is on paper and his feats are what we go on not his theoretical limit of his DF.
And luffy doesnt take a lot of time to go into G4, its pretty fast now, when he took his time against doffy obviously that was oda hyping his new powers etc. And luffy goes auto G4 with new enemies he doesnt go from gear to gear so idk why you are making that argument. and doffy didnt even use awakening on law, doffy was better at keeping up with luffy with awakening not by his regular self where luffy had the clear edge in speed and raw power. so law's teleporting wont take him far after seeing what he can accomplish with doffy.
doffy could keep up but luffy was still faster for the time he was in G4. If law was as effective as he is with his room he wouldnt have gotten destroyed by doffy. he shouldve been able to put up a much better fight, law hasnt shown that he would effective after taking G4 level hits.
Not really. For one thing, Doflamingo had vast knowledge on the Ope Ope no Mi, so him getting around the abilities makes a lot of sense. Secondly, Luffy lost to Doflamingo before Gats helped. You say that Law wasn't effective against Doffy, but Luffy only beat Doffy in the first place because Law blew Doffy half to death and dozens of fighters helped Luffy. Even during the Gear Fourth assault, Doffy wasn't just being thrown around like a rag doll, 20 minutes of that fight was Awakening holding Luffy back.
YOu are judging law's hax based on theory, yes his powers are soo hax that he should technically be able to surprise and beat some characters above his class but oda doesnt make his powers as hax as it is on paper and his feats are what we go on not his theoretical limit of his DF.
That's exactly how debates work though. This is a theoretical fight, so theoretical limits do apply so long as feats back them up, and the limits I apply to Law's fruit are backed up by feats. I suggest you look up plot-induced stupidity to understand why the hax that has been shown in Law's fruit hasn't popped up on-screen, despite feats showing the hax usages are possible. In VS matches, we don't have plot holding anything back, so as long as the manga shows that a usage of a power is possible, then it applies.
And luffy doesnt take a lot of time to go into G4, its pretty fast now, when he took his time against doffy obviously that was oda hyping his new powers etc. And luffy goes auto G4 with new enemies he doesnt go from gear to gear so idk why you are making that argument.
Not really. For one thing, teleporting>any speed Gear Fourth could ever produce. Secondly, Doflamingo was able to keep up with Gear Fourth's speed on multiple occasions, and Law was able to keep pace with Doflamingo in close combat assaults. There's also the fact that Law can take high advantage of the large gaps/hang time in Luffy's Gear Third and Gear Fourth assaults, since he has one of the highest displays of stamina/endurance with how much damage he took in Dressrosa and was able to still keep it pushing.
From now one, I don't wanna see either of you talking about how Garp, Whitebeard, and Roger all fought with each other 1 vs 1. From now on, "Whitebeard matched Roger" and "Garp and Roger almost killed each other" ain't 1 v 1s no more, their crews were involved because we didn't see the fights and what happened in Dressrosa. Let's see how hypocritical you two will be.
Typical Riker, rather than refute the post he tries to attack the poster. Gatz and the citizens of Dressrosa and even most if not all the fighters gave all credit for stopping Doffy to Luffy so characters being around the event and saying it isn't a solid defense anymore in this scenario. Just because Brulee knew about the incident doesn't mean she knows how Snack was defeated and she doesn't imply knowing anything other than Urogue was responsible. She doesn't imply it was one on one or not we're implying it each way but the manga has shown us before that the one who gets the last hit/moment gets the glory generally(Lola got no recognition for helping bring down Moriah with her shadow army she gave Luffy, Wyper got no recognition in helping take down Enel, Law got no recognition for helping take down Doffy)
Garp matching Roger was stated and shown to be between the two individuals though whereas WB could be crew.
Typical Riker, rather than refute the post he tries to attack the poster. Gatz and the citizens of Dressrosa and even most if not all the fighters gave all credit for stopping Doffy to Luffy so characters being around the event and saying it isn't a solid defense anymore in this scenario.
I didn't attack you two at all, I attacked the premise of your post. And that doesn't invalidate Brulee's credibility, that invalidates theirs. Character A's credibility doesn't affect Character B's credibility unless Character B is getting information from Character A.
Just because Brulee knew about the incident doesn't mean she knows how Snack was defeated and she doesn't imply knowing anything other than Urogue was responsible.
And you're gonna need proof that she didn't. Until then, the manga indicates that she does.
She doesn't imply it was one on one or not we're implying it each way but the manga has shown us before that the one who gets the last hit/moment gets the glory generally(Lola got no recognition for helping bring down Moriah with her shadow army she gave Luffy, Wyper got no recognition in helping take down Enel, Law got no recognition for helping take down Doffy)
Same as I said above. One character's credibility doesn't impact another character's credibility when they are unrelated to each other.
You also have many false equivalencies here. For one thing, the people who report it as "Luffy defeated Kuma" have no idea of Nightmare Luffy because they weren't even on the island; this is non-applicable to Brulee. Wyper also didn't do jack shit to help Luffy beat Enel.
Garp matching Roger was stated and shown to be between the two individuals though whereas WB could be crew.
Yeah just like "Urouge defeated Snack" was stated and "Luffy defeated Doffy" was stated. Isn't that right? I expect you to hold fast to your logic now.
Right, because "Let's see how hypocritical you two will be" isn't an accusation of character.
And that doesn't invalidate Brulee's credibility, that invalidates theirs. Character A's credibility doesn't affect Character B's credibility unless Character B is getting information from Character A.
I wasn't using it as an attempt to invalidate her but to showcase that your reasoning of a character being around an incident therefore what they say must be taken as fact has been invalidated within the manga before. So Brulee as an indicator of how the fight happened is one of the weaker indicators.
And you're gonna need proof that she didn't. Until then, the manga indicates that she does.
Same as I said above. One character's credibility doesn't impact another character's credibility when they are unrelated to each other.
You can't prove a negative and there's no indication she does, all she mentioned was the result nothing in her detail indicates she knew any specifics about the battle itself.
You also have many false equivalencies here. For one thing, the people who report it as "Luffy defeated Kuma" have no idea of Nightmare Luffy because they weren't even on the island; this is non-applicable to Brulee. Wyper also didn't do jack shit to help Luffy beat Enel.
You mean Moriah not Kuma. I'm not talking about the people reporting, we're talking about people in the scenario(like Brulee) not giving them credit for their roles. No one said "Hey thanks Lola, without you and those shadows Luffy would have had a much harder time" Wyper was in the mix creating openings, Urogue could have had a similar situation with one of his crewmates like Nami creating a chance for him to finish Snack.
Yeah just like "Urouge defeated Snack" was stated and "Luffy defeated Doffy" was stated. Isn't that right? I expect you to hold fast to your logic now.
I'll have to go double check but it said something like Garp and Roger went toe to toe that implies a 1v1 scenario more so than A defeated B. Also Garp/Roger was shown to be 1v1 while none of the others were. It said WB was the only one to match Roger that could as easily mean in a contest between the two individually or in scope and force as a Pirate captain.
Not really. For one thing, Doflamingo had vast knowledge on the Ope Ope no Mi, so him getting around the abilities makes a lot of sense. Secondly, Luffy lost to Doflamingo before Gats helped. You say that Law wasn't effective against Doffy, but Luffy only beat Doffy in the first place because Law blew Doffy half to death and dozens of fighters helped Luffy. Even during the Gear Fourth assault, Doffy wasn't just being thrown around like a rag doll, 20 minutes of that fight was Awakening holding Luffy back.
That's exactly how debates work though. This is a theoretical fight, so theoretical limits do apply so long as feats back them up, and the limits I apply to Law's fruit are backed up by feats. I suggest you look up plot-induced stupidity to understand why the hax that has been shown in Law's fruit hasn't popped up on-screen, despite feats showing the hax usages are possible. In VS matches, we don't have plot holding anything back, so as long as the manga shows that a usage of a power is possible, then it applies.
I never said anything about the time it takes to go into Gear Fourth, I said the hang time that occurs DURING Gear Fourth.
what exact precautions did doffy take, he casually beat him and with relative ease at that. law losing to doffy like that is inexcusable, teleportation was no help and it isnt going to be when he is going against a faster opponent.
I said with awakening he was able to keep but luffy in terms of mobility was faster, law never even faced awakening. Law did damage doffy but with the help of luffy he was able to land the shot.
Doffy > luffy ofc but luffy with his limited time in G4 gave doffy hell and that is something law didnt even come close to and luffy made doffy use his awakening.
No terrible logic again, we have to go based on law's feats, with law's theroteical limits he can be even above doffy, but that wasnt remotely the case. You are suggesting we go beyond what law has shown in feats and that is absolutely stupid. Law has shown not being able to handle high level opponents with good reflexes and speed like doffy. luffy can easily match doffy in those categories but falls short to doffy due to lower endurance and his limited ability to use his trump card.
Oh ok i thought u meant him transforming, which is an argument u used in the past ofc only to be proven wrong later. And by hang time do u mean after he loses his G4? Cuz if thats the case law isnt even going to withstand all those attacks to see a round 2 of G4.
what exact precautions did doffy take, he casually beat him and with relative ease at that. law losing to doffy like that is inexcusable, teleportation was no help and it isnt going to be when he is going against a faster opponent.
I said with awakening he was able to keep but luffy in terms of mobility was faster, law never even faced awakening. Law did damage doffy but with the help of luffy he was able to land the shot.
Doffy > luffy ofc but luffy with his limited time in G4 gave doffy hell and that is something law didnt even come close to and luffy made doffy use his awakening.
Doflamingo and Smoker took the exact same "precaution" when facing Law: They immediately engaged him up close, leaving few windows for him to exploit his powers, and whenever they maintained this engagement, Law lost the edge hax gives. Luffy doesn't fight like that. Luffy has gaps in his engagement and even within his methods of attack that Law can take advantage of. Doflamingo faced similar instances, such as when Law hit Injection Shot on him. Remove plot-induced stupidity that hold back bigger, more hax attacks like the slice that cut Vergo, and Luffy is at a disadvantage.
No terrible logic again, we have to go based on law's feats, with law's theroteical limits he can be even above doffy, but that wasnt remotely the case.
This isn't even completely true. This is why I said look up what plot-induced stupidity is. Look at this page for instance:
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In this page, Law had the perfect chance to use Chambres to send Doffy into the water at the bottom of the room by switching him with the water instead of switching him with himself. That's within Law's feats, but couldn't be done because that's not in the best interest of the story. This is kind of thing is what I'm talking about: Usages of the fruit that are available to Law, even if he doesn't in the manga because the plot is more important.
You are suggesting we go beyond what law has shown in feats and that is absolutely stupid. Law has shown not being able to handle high level opponents with good reflexes and speed like doffy. luffy can easily match doffy in those categories but falls short to doffy due to lower endurance and his limited ability to use his trump card.
That's not at all what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that there are usages of the Ope Ope no Mi available to Law that are WITHIN feats shown so far, even if doing so wasn't explicitly shown in the manga.
The example I gave above is an example. Law has never teleported a person into water, meaning he's never displayed that feat, but we know that he CAN and that it's WITHIN his power to do so by looking at other feats he's done. Can Law teleport Doflamingo? Yes. Can Law's powers affect water? Check. Was the Room low enough to the water? Yes. All of these are separate feats that when taken together, shows a usage of Law's powers that are within his abilities, even if it wasn't shown to be done within the manga. It's the same as when people say Law can teleport Zoro's swords away when they fight. He's never actually done that in the manga, but we have other feats that shows that he COULD.
Oh ok i thought u meant him transforming, which is an argument u used in the past ofc only to be proven wrong later.
That wasn't me being proven wrong. When I made that argument, Luffy going Gear Fourth near instantly wasn't an established thing in the manga. You can't be "wrong" when you're going by manga info and that info is later retconned.
And by hang time do u mean after he loses his G4? Cuz if thats the case law isnt even going to withstand all those attacks to see a round 2 of G4.
No. I'm talking about the gaps in his attacks that I know I've shown you before. Also, considering the fact that Law took three consecutive beatings from Doflamingo and not only survived them, but was also able to remain conscious for a vast majority of it while Fujitora was part of one of them and also while using a power that drains his stamina, I'm sure he can make it through a Gear Fourth beating.
How do we know Urouge didn't have one (or more) of his crew members helping him against the Sweet Commander?
Yall love to take away the victory from Luffy because Nami made it rain, lol like seriously listen to that for a second, yet you speak like the manga actually showed Urouge fighting by himself..
I don't believe nami making it rain was considered significant help either but the funny part is that Urouge fought the weakest commander and needed to recover his injuries in the cloud while luffy beats one stronger than him, then proceeds to fight an army and crash a party.
Nope. That's me saying that your argument is hypocritical.
I wasn't using it as an attempt to invalidate her but to showcase that your reasoning of a character being around an incident therefore what they say must be taken as fact has been invalidated within the manga before. So Brulee as an indicator of how the fight happened is one of the weaker indicators.
No it's not. That's enough to create DOUBT, as I said before, but it's not enough to DISMISS in every case. Do those instances make it logical to DOUBT Brulee? Yes. Does it make it logical to DISMISS Brulee? No.
You can't prove a negative and there's no indication she does, all she mentioned was the result nothing in her detail indicates she knew any specifics about the battle itself.
Uhhh you can DEFINITELY prove that someone doesn't know how something happened. For example, we know that Crocodile doesn't know how Luffy defeated Moriah, even if he knows that he did, because that information never left the island. You need proof that what Brulee said(Urouge took down the commander) isn't the detail itself.
You mean Moriah not Kuma. I'm not talking about the people reporting, we're talking about people in the scenario(like Brulee) not giving them credit for their roles. No one said "Hey thanks Lola, without you and those shadows Luffy would have had a much harder time" Wyper was in the mix creating openings, Urogue could have had a similar situation with one of his crewmates like Nami creating a chance for him to finish Snack.
That's fine, but that can't be applied to Brulee dismiss her credibility. And no, Wyper didn't weaken Enel at all.
I'll have to go double check but it said something like Garp and Roger went toe to toe that implies a 1v1 scenario more so than A defeated B. Also Garp/Roger was shown to be 1v1 while none of the others were. It said WB was the only one to match Roger that could as easily mean in a contest between the two individually or in scope and force as a Pirate captain.
LMFAOOOO "Garp fought Roger" is no ****ing different than "Urouge defeated the commander" in terms of indicating how many people were involved in the fight. So like I said, if you're gonna dismiss Urouge and Snack as 1 vs 1, you're gonna have to do the same for all the talks of Roger, Garp, and Whitebeard fighting.
I don't believe nami making it rain was considered significant help either but the funny part is that Urouge fought the weakest commander and needed to recover his injuries in the cloud while luffy beats one stronger than him, then proceeds to fight an army and crash a party.
What a dense post. For one thing, Snack has never been confirmed as the weakest commander.
Secondly, Luffy needed to eat Cracker's biscuits to survive the fight, and that was only possible because Nami made them wet.
Thirdly, after Luffy fought Cracker, he was immobile and falling asleep. He then was weak, passed out and withered after taking a major loss by the Enraged Army and only got back on his feet after eating several batches of food and sleeping in Capone's castle. You make it sound like Luffy charged from one fight to the other when he spent significant time resting during this arc.
Its funny how feats and portrayal constantly get warped & switched in order to support a certain argument....and how guys constantly sh!t on each other to say their assumptions are better than others....also, those who still think Nami didn't help Luffy with Cracker are idiots not worth any rational person's time....
Nope. That's me saying that your argument is hypocritical.
No it's not. That's enough to create DOUBT, as I said before, but it's not enough to DISMISS in every case. Do those instances make it logical to DOUBT Brulee? Yes. Does it make it logical to DISMISS Brulee? No.
Uhhh you can DEFINITELY prove that someone doesn't know how something happened. For example, we know that Crocodile doesn't know how Luffy defeated Moriah, even if he knows that he did, because that information never left the island. You need proof that what Brulee said(Urouge took down the commander) isn't the detail itself.
That's fine, but that can't be applied to Brulee dismiss her credibility. And no, Wyper didn't weaken Enel at all.
LMFAOOOO "Garp fought Roger" is no ****ing different than "Urouge defeated the commander" in terms of indicating how many people were involved in the fight. So like I said, if you're gonna dismiss Urouge and Snack as 1 vs 1, you're gonna have to do the same for all the talks of Roger, Garp, and Whitebeard fighting.
What a dense post. For one thing, Snack has never been confirmed as the weakest commander.
Secondly, Luffy needed to eat Cracker's biscuits to survive the fight, and that was only possible because Nami made them wet.
Thirdly, after Luffy fought Cracker, he was immobile and falling asleep. He then was weak, passed out and withered after taking a major loss by the Enraged Army and only got back on his feet after eating several batches of food and sleeping in Capone's castle. You make it sound like Luffy charged from one fight to the other when he spent significant time resting during this arc.
What an absolutely retarded post. And last time I checked, you're not Lbreezy. So you stfu and realize when someone doesn't give **** about your idiotic opinion.
Comparing a five minute sleep to a man covered in bandages hiding up in the clouds unable to move. You moron
If Urouge had help against Snack but landed the finishing blow, then you could still say Urouge defeated Snack. Regardless, beating a weaker SC then Cracker doesn't suggest that Urouge is stronger than Luffy. You can say Cracker was stronger than Luffy but that wouldn't automatically make him weaker then Urouge.
You could also say, "well we don't know if Cracker is stronger than Snack!" But then you would have to ask yourself, why would BM send a weaker SC to deal with Urouge knowing he beat a stronger one? Then you can come to the conclusion that Cracker is stronger than Snack, she sent the next best thing knowing the weaker SC was defeated. So to me its obvious who the stronger SN is, you either put them on the same level, because you know, they are SN so they shouldn't be too far apart in power. Or you give Luffy the benefit of the doubt for pushing Cracker farther than any one has in awhile, Crackers own words.
What an absolutely retarded post. And last time I checked, you're not Lbreezy. So you stfu and realize when someone doesn't give **** about your idiotic opinion.
Comparing a five minute sleep to a man covered in bandages hiding up in the clouds unable to move. You moron
Obviously you give a **** for such a hostile response riddled with insults. Also, you say Urouge was unable to move when he was literally moving & praying....wow....lets not forget Luffy can heal with food & rest....
What an absolutely retarded post. And last time I checked, you're not Lbreezy. So you stfu and realize when someone doesn't give **** about your idiotic opinion.
Comparing a five minute sleep to a man covered in bandages hiding up in the clouds unable to move. You moron
1. Unable to move? What are you talking about? Urouge was never shown to be immobile on Balloon Terminal, but was shown walking around, then sitting down, and then praying.
2. It wasn't a five minute sleep. Luffy was immobile in the sweet rain waiting for Sanji, and then Sanji found him withered up and almost unconscious, and then he slept during the wedding preparations, which included 30 minutes.
Obviously you give a **** for such a hostile response riddled with insults. Also, you say Urouge was unable to move when he was literally moving & praying....wow....lets not forget Luffy can heal with food & rest....
You can start by stfu with that stupid fanfic here before I deal with you again. I said I don't give a **** about his opinions, I don't want to open my notifications to see rubbish such as this.
So you can keep just quite, you're nothing more than just Riker's parrot who regurgitates the last five sentences he says.
You can start by stfu with that stupid fanfic here before I deal with you again. I said I don't give a **** about his opinions, I don't want to open my notifications to see rubbish such as this.
So you can keep just quite, you're nothing more than just Riker's parrot who regurgitates the last five sentences he says.
Damn....enough with the online warrior BS...Riker's parrot? Nah...I just him to be one of the few people which some actual sense in this section so naturally, he says a lot of stuff I agree with. Majority are online warriors like you who think their opinions are fact. You just called a fact a fanfic....
Damn....enough with the online warrior BS...Riker's parrot? Nah...I just him to be one of the few people which some actual sense in this section so naturally, he says a lot of stuff I agree with. Majority are online warriors like you who think their opinions are fact. You just called a fact a fanfic....
None of what he says makes sense. And if I have an opinion about anything, I'll inform everybody that it is my opinion unlike you parrot that blindly follows Riker and call a manga page I posted fanfic. So keep quite with your crap. You went out of your way to quote me and you're calling me a warrior, very hypocritical of you.
Last time I checked you're not Lbreezy either. So shut up, I'm relying to him and not you.
