[Discussion] What is a Swordsman in One Piece?

Punk Hazard

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This shit is pretty ****ing simple. Looking at every character who has been classified as swordsmen, zero of them have displayed an ability that is superior to their swordplay. Therefore, based on how swordsmen have been portrayed in the story, it don't matter if Shanks has a rifle, a martial art, a DF, a gatling gun, a hook, a hammer, a club, a lance, a spear and a Bisento. He weaker than Mihawk as portrayed. End of until information retconning/contradicting this is revealed.
 

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This is like arguing against Roger being a pirate king when author straight told he was one. "Shiki lived a more lavish life with a huge army that could potentially wipe out Roger pirates and Newgate crew seems the strongest with so many allies etc etc". I don't care how Shiki and Newgate are portrayed, author told me Roger was the pirate king, in this case Fuji and Shanks portrayal, the author continues to point at Mihawk as the WSS nothing more or less.
Can you show any Mihawk feat which puts him above Shanks and Fuji???
 

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Achieving the title of the most powerful person in the world within the category of "swordsman."
And Kaido has WSC title still he lost 7times and captured numerous times.
WB had WSM title and still he can't knock anybody in MF other than some low tier Marines.
WGS Mihawk strongest slash was stopped by Jozu.
Enel and Ussop both have been given title God and we know what happened with Enel.
So far titles doesn't strengthen Mihawk's case :bdpf:
 

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And Kaido has WSC title still he lost 7times and captured numerous times.
Kaido also attacked groups of people whom he fought alone His title refers to 1 vs 1 bouts. You also don't know if this occurred before or after he got his title. You also don't know if he allowed it due to his suicidal tendencies. Wanna keep using arguments full of holes and unknown variables?

WB had WSM title and still he can't knock anybody in MF other than some low tier Marines.
WB renounced his title due to the fact that his old age made him weaker.

WGS Mihawk strongest slash was stopped by Jozu.
No top tier is one-shotting any other top tier. Defeating a person requires you to layer damage until they can't take any more, not dealing one big blow. See Daz Bones blocking a slash from Mihawk, and the next slash putting him down.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Dannie and he chose to ignore: Show proof that Jozu's defenses would have held up if Mihawk sent several more one after the other so they stacked up on him.

Enel and Ussop both have been given title God and we know what happened with Enel.
Not only do these titles hold zero water, unlike WSS, WSC, and WSM, but one was self-appointed and the other was appointed through ignorance and as an alias, not a moniker of strength.
 

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Give me 3 techniques Shanks elaborated without drawing his sword
I don't need to. Shanks is a yonko and all yonko have been shown or portrayed to be insanely powerful with either an insane DF or just some other nasty ability like with Big Mom and Whitebeard.

Shanks being just an ordinary swordsman would make no sense to his status on yonko.

Show one person in OP who was called a swordsman and had another fighting style that was greater than their swordsmanship.
Fujitora.
 

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I don't need to. Shanks is a yonko and all yonko have been shown or portrayed to be insanely powerful with either an insane DF or just some other nasty ability like with Big Mom and Whitebeard.

Shanks being just an ordinary swordsman would make no sense to his status on yonko.
edit: I love the idea of Shanks being > Mihawk too much to care about logic and manga facts presented.

Fujitora.
So you've seen Fuji techs > his swordsmanship? Care to share :bdpf:
 

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edit: I love the idea of Shanks being > Mihawk too much to care about logic and manga facts presented.
Your WSS argument which puts Mihawk above Shanks is not logic either since Shanks and Mihawk have not fought in over 15 years, so you are just basing that title off of old nonsense.

edit: I love the idea of Shanks being > Mihawk too much to care about logic and manga facts presented.


So you've seen Fuji techs > his swordsmanship? Care to share :bdpf:
His gravity manipulating DF is above his sword skills. I don't think we need to debate this.
 
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Punk Hazard

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I don't need to. Shanks is a yonko and all yonko have been shown or portrayed to be insanely powerful with either an insane DF or just some other nasty ability like with Big Mom and Whitebeard.
The question was show Shanks using something that's greater than his swordsmanship.

Big Mom has used swordsmanship, but it wasn't any better or worse than any of her other abilities. In fact, so far, it's been her most dangerous attack, so

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Shanks being just an ordinary swordsman would make no sense to his status on yonko.
First of all, "ordinary swordsman" is misleading as shit. Your argument needing to rely on buzzwords to dilute what's actual fact shows how little of a limb you're climbing on.

You trying to imply that being an "ordinary" swordsman means weak is wrong. Someone can be just a swordsman, and have monstrous strength behind it. An Emperor who's "just a swordsman" can simply be powerful enough to launch slashes like what Mihawk cut the iceberg with, or Zoro cutting Pica's waist as casual slashes, or Big Mom's Mighty Nation attack. You trying to downplay what can be achieved by swordsmen isn't a good argument.

This isn't even mentioning the fact that the argument isn't that Shanks can show other powerful abilities, they just won't be any more powerful than his swordsmanship.

Fujitora.
His Gravity is part of his swordplay, try again.
 

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Kaido also attacked groups of people whom he fought alone His title refers to 1 vs 1 bouts. You also don't know if this occurred before or after he got his title. You also don't know if he allowed it due to his suicidal tendencies. Wanna keep using arguments full of holes and unknown variables?
Shanks vs Kaido happened recently. Marines confirmed skirmish took place. It is pretty obvious that kaido who wants to challenge WB already was strong enough to have that title.
And I have written time and again that Shanks vs Kaido need not to be a battle of strength. Shanks probably destroying Kaido's ship is enough to stop him.

WB renounced his title due to the fact that his old age made him weaker.
I already told u in another thread that he renounced his title after his condition become worse. He didn't renounced it when he entered the MF, he didn't renounced it when Shanks came to meet him but his condition was always the same. Even when he got a boost of power(after seeing Ace die) he still can't knock Akainu.

No top tier is one-shotting any other top tier. Defeating a person requires you to layer damage until they can't take any more, not dealing one big blow. See Daz Bones blocking a slash from Mihawk, and the next slash putting him down.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Dannie and he chose to ignore: Show proof that Jozu's defenses would have held up if Mihawk sent several more one after the other so they stacked up on him.
That attack did literally zero damage to Jozu. Another attack of same caliber would have been stopped same way. Diamond is the hardest thing to cut in OP. Mihawk need to change his strategy to beat him like catching him off guard or something like that.

Not only do these titles hold zero water, unlike WSS, WSC, and WSM, but one was self-appointed and the other was appointed through ignorance and as an alias, not a moniker of strength.
Still Enel was worshipped by Skypie people. Most of these titles are made by random people as seen in MF where that slash was termed as Strongest slash. And the same attack basically killed title logic since it did nothing. Title doesn't guarantee victory.
 

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His Gravity is part of his swordplay, try again.
It's funny because without his gravity ability his sword skills would be significantly weaker, but okay.

The question was show Shanks using something that's greater than his swordsmanship.

Big Mom has used swordsmanship, but it wasn't any better or worse than any of her other abilities. In fact, so far, it's been her most dangerous attack, so

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Zeus was more dangerous than her sword skills. Are you trolling bro?
 
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Punk Hazard

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Shanks vs Kaido happened recently. Marines confirmed skirmish took place.]/QUOTE]

Beast Pirates and Red Hair Pirates had a skirmish* Meaning once again, not a 1 vs 1 scenario, so it does nothing towards Kaido's title. Not only that, but skirmish is the key word. It wasn't a full fight, and we know it never got serious because Shanks showed up to MF without a scratch. No top tier is defeating another one without serious injuries.

It is pretty obvious that kaido who wants to challenge WB already was strong enough to have that title.
Pretty obvious? I think you mean completely baseless.
And I have written time and again that Shanks vs Kaido need not to be a battle of strength. Shanks probably destroying Kaido's ship is enough to stop him.
So yourself admit this has jack shit to do with Kaido's title, meaning you brought it up for no reason? Let's try and stay on topic here.


I already told u in another thread that he renounced his title after his condition become worse.
WB's condition has been worse for years. Not just at MF. Crocodile said the man who defeated him wasn't this weak, and WB mused that he wasn't the same man he was before, and that Crocodile's reaction was foolish because he was still human and humans get weaker. WB wasn't the WSM when he rolled up to MF, the world just didn't know because WB didn't allow his illness to be known.

He didn't renounced it when he entered the MF, he didn't renounced it when Shanks came to meet him but his condition was always the same. Even when he got a boost of power(after seeing Ace die) he still can't knock Akainu.
He renounced it before he was ever hurt at MF. And no, Squad's stab did NOT hurt WB.


That attack did literally zero damage to Jozu. Another attack of same caliber would have been stopped same way.
This statement is false when made as an absolute, shown by the fact that Daz Bones tanked a hit from Mihawk, and one more hit of the same caliber cut through him and knocked him down.

Diamond is the hardest thing to cut in OP. Mihawk need to change his strategy to beat him like catching him off guard or something like that.
You hurt yourself with this argument because you make it sound like Jozu has an absolute defense due to diamond's power, not his own power. By this logic, EVERYONE, from Mihawk to Shanks to WB to Kaido would have to find a different way to hurt Jozu other than just bashing through his diamond, so this doesn't help your argument at all.

Still Enel was worshipped by Skypie people.
Because they were all weaklings ignorant of what the power of the world is. Mihawk's title is not acknowledged by the entire world, but top tier figthers as well. You cannot compare his title to that of Enel's. Especially since Gan Fall, a resident of Skypeia, stated that the title was just that, a title, and didn't represent actual godlihood.

Most of these titles are made by random people as seen in MF where that slash was termed as Strongest slash.
Some random fodder calling Mihawk's slash the strongest(which as stated before, all of his slashes are the strongest slashes) isn't at all comparable to a world and top-tier-recognized title of WSS.

You really think Oda would make achieving that title a dream of one of the Strawhats if the title meant nothing? You think Zoro's dream means nothing? If so, you've been reading Two Piece.

It's funny because without his gravity ability his sword skills would be significantly weaker, but okay.
And without his sword skills, his gravity wouldn't be used as is. Fujitora's gravity and his swords are the same Law's Ope Ope no Mi and his swords, or using Haki with swords. They're combined into one fighting style. The ***** even classified his techniques as "Graviton/Gravity Sword," so this is just about the studidest argument you've been making.
Zeus was more dangerous than her sword skills. Are you trolling bro?
Except Zeus hasn't shown anything as destructive as her Mighty Nation attack without being enhanced by Nami's weather balls.
 
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Dannie

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And without his sword skills, his gravity wouldn't be used as is. Fujitora's gravity and his swords are the same Law's Ope Ope no Mi and his swords, or using Haki with swords. They're combined into one fighting style. The ***** even classified his techniques as "Graviton/Gravity Sword," so this is just about the studidest argument you've been making.

Except Zeus hasn't shown anything as destructive as her Mighty Nation attack without being enhanced by Nami's weather balls.
Fujitora can rain down metoers without his swords.

Law doesn't need his swords to use his Ope Ope no Mi. Fck you on dawg?
----------------
And yet Zeus one shotted judge making him unconscious whereas her mighty nation attack didn't do shit but slice that tree in half. Try again.
 

Punk Hazard

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Fujitora can rain down metoers without his swords.

Law doesn't need his swords to use his Ope Ope no Mi. Fck you on dawg?
What part of "Two combined into one" don't you get? Yes, Fuji and Law both have techniques that are done without the sword. However, their main fighting style revolves around using the sword AND the ability together for one fighting style. Law's Ope Ope is fully realized when used with his sword, and Fujitora mostly uses his gravity through his sword. So the **** are YOU on? You reading Two Piece too, huh?

And yet Zeus one shotted judge making him unconscious whereas her mighty nation attack didn't do shit but slice that tree in half. Try again.
Lmfaooo that's because BM hit Judge at point blank range with Zeus, while Mighty Nation was launched from a distance and did far more destruction than Zeus ever did. When looking at how much of Baum was erased, and how far the shockwave of the slash spread, that shit any of the actual people would have done devastating damage. Even using Promotheus didn't erase Baum the way the slash did, and they reached the same general wave.

Your persistence for an argument this stupid is unbelievable.
 

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Beast Pirates and Red Hair Pirates had a skirmish* Meaning once again, not a 1 vs 1 scenario, so it does nothing towards Kaido's title. Not only that, but skirmish is the key word. It wasn't a full fight, and we know it never got serious because Shanks showed up to MF without a scratch. No top tier is defeating another one without serious injuries.


Pretty obvious? I think you mean completely baseless.

So yourself admit this has jack shit to do with Kaido's title, meaning you brought it up for no reason? Let's try and stay on topic here.
Seriously you said Kaido has the tendency to attack people alone* that's why I said how a clash between Shanks and Kaido might have taken place.
His title is WSC. The next line that in a 1vs1bout always bet on Kaido means that the probability of Kaido winning is more. Not that he will always win. That's why he lost 7times and got captured numerous times.

WB's condition has been worse for years. Not just at MF. Crocodile said the man who defeated him wasn't this weak, and WB mused that he wasn't the same man he was before, and that Crocodile's reaction was foolish because he was still human and humans get weaker. WB wasn't the WSM when he rolled up to MF, the world just didn't know because WB didn't allow his illness to be known.


He renounced it before he was ever hurt at MF. And no, Squad's stab did NOT hurt WB.
When Shanks came to WB, Jozu also said something like what was Shanks doing with WB and Marco told him 2 relax.
WB condition was like that for a pretty long time. We saw numerous nurses taking care of him.
At the end of MF he got a power boost(which alot of people consider as a glimpse of WB's power in his prime) and still it did nothing to Akainu. So tell me what were you expecting from WB??? Knocking Admirals in one punch???

This statement is false when made as an absolute, shown by the fact that Daz Bones tanked a hit from Mihawk, and one more hit of the same caliber cut through him and knocked him down.
The attack Mihawk used on Daz bones was not consider as strongest slash. So this example is not good enough to say Jozu would have been down in next attack.

You hurt yourself with this argument because you make it sound like Jozu has an absolute defense due to diamond's power, not his own power. By this logic, EVERYONE, from Mihawk to Shanks to WB to Kaido would have to find a different way to hurt Jozu other than just bashing through his diamond, so this doesn't help your argument at all.
Didn't Aokiji froze him when he was distracted???
And I didn't said Diamond was the hardest thing to cut, it was said in the Manga.
There are plenty ways to beat him like Foxy slowing him down or Doffy using parasyte where his diamond skin is not present etc.

Because they were all weaklings ignorant of what the power of the world is. Mihawk's title is not acknowledged by the entire world, but top tier figthers as well. You cannot compare his title to that of Enel's. Especially since Gan Fall, a resident of Skypeia, stated that the title was just that, a title, and didn't represent actual godlihood.


Some random fodder calling Mihawk's slash the strongest(which as stated before, all of his slashes are the strongest slashes) isn't at all comparable to a world and top-tier-recognized title of WSS.

You really think Oda would make achieving that title a dream of one of the Strawhats if the title meant nothing? You think Zoro's dream means nothing? If so, you've been reading Two Piece.
There are few things I would like to point out:
1) All slashes of Mihawk need not to be strongest slash* as seen the slash he used on Luffy at first had different intensity than the second one which destroyed that Ice mountain thing.

2)Roger had visited Skypiea so they must have a pretty good idea of strength and power lvl.

3)We already saw twice that random people makes these titles(First one World strongest Slash, Second God Ussop). There are no contest in OP to decide who is the strongest man here or who is the best swordsman? Rumours, hype, Believes has made these titles. These titles doesn't guarantee anything.

Now I never said Zoro's dream means nothing. He wants to become best/strongest Swordsman. Currently Strongest swordsman is Mihawk.
Anybody with hax DF ability or superior Haki could possibly beat him. His title doesn't make him immune from everybody.
 

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Seriously you said Kaido has the tendency to attack people alone* that's why I said how a clash between Shanks and Kaido might have taken place.
His title is WSC. The next line that in a 1vs1bout always bet on Kaido means that the probability of Kaido winning is more. Not that he will always win. That's why he lost 7times and got captured numerous times.
Having a higher probability of winning is precisely what being the strongest means. The scenarios where Kaido loses are where someone does something to make up for the fact that he's stronger than them, so what even is this argument?

When Shanks came to WB, Jozu also said something like what was Shanks doing with WB and Marco told him 2 relax.
Nope. WB told them it doesn't appear that Shanks came to fight, so they can leave them alone. The hell is even the point here?

WB condition was like that for a pretty long time. We saw numerous nurses taking care of him.
That's exactly what the **** I said. WB's condition was affecting him long before MF. The world didn't know because WB kept it hidden.
At the end of MF he got a power boost(which alot of people consider as a glimpse of WB's power in his prime) and still it did nothing to Akainu. So tell me what were you expecting from WB??? Knocking Admirals in one punch???
@bold: ***** what the ****? When did I say anything like this.

At the rest: There was no power boost. WB's illness never affected his Quakes. He stopped holding back due to the fact that Ace was gone and he had no reason to be conservative anymore.


The attack Mihawk used on Daz bones was not consider as strongest slash. So this example is not good enough to say Jozu would have been down in next attack.
Dawg, it shows that just because you stop one attack doesn't mean your defenses can hold up to multiple hitting you. Every defense breaks eventually.

Didn't Aokiji froze him when he was distracted???
****** hoemygod.

This is EXACTLY what I said. According to your argument, it doesn't matter WHO you are, you have to find another way to get past Jozu's diamond than just overpowering it to defeat him. According to your argument, that doesn't make Mihawk look weaker because that would apply to everyone.

There are plenty ways to beat him like Foxy slowing him down or Doffy using parasyte where his diamond skin is not present etc.
And? What this got to do with what I said? Can you even keep up with this conversation dawg?

2)Roger had visited Skypiea so they must have a pretty good idea of strength and power lvl.
Them calling Enel God had nothing to do with power. It was a title given to anyone that ruled over Skypeia. As noted by Gan Fall, he was the only that took it to mean that he was an actual God with actual god-tier powers. Not comparable to Mihawk's title.

3)We already saw twice that random people makes these titles(First one World strongest Slash, Second God Ussop). There are no contest in OP to decide who is the strongest man here or who is the best swordsman? Rumours, hype, Believes has made these titles. These titles doesn't guarantee anything.
When the title is acknowledged by top tiers, it is.

Now I never said Zoro's dream means nothing. He wants to become best/strongest Swordsman. Currently Strongest swordsman is Mihawk.
Yes you did. By saying the title means nothing and is just rumors, then it means that Zoro achieving the title means nothing because it's all just rumors and the title means nothing, right? Foolish.
 

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This shit is pretty ****ing simple. Looking at every character who has been classified as swordsmen, zero of them have displayed an ability that is superior to their swordplay. Therefore, based on how swordsmen have been portrayed in the story, it don't matter if Shanks has a rifle, a martial art, a DF, a gatling gun, a hook, a hammer, a club, a lance, a spear and a Bisento. He weaker than Mihawk as portrayed. End of until information retconning/contradicting this is revealed.
Law is a swordsman whose DF skill exceeds his swordsmanship. That's not to say his swordsmanship isn't good but it's below his DF use and skill level. If Law fought Zoro pure swords, he'd lose but if Law fought in his typical fashion he'd likely be able to win. And we've already went over how despite Law being a swordsman most of his attacks are centered around his DF and the ones that utilize his sword are almost all done in conjunction with his df;
Room - Hand: Primary DF offensive tech. necessary for other techs.
Amputate - sword: slash modified by room
Radio Knife - counter shock on sword slash
Shambles - Hand: telekinesis
Personality Transplant - non offensive
Takt - Hand: telekinesis
Scan - sword: non offensive
Mes - hand
Counter Shock - electric based attack done with hands
Injection Shot - sword
Gamma Knife - energy blade not his sword
Sterben - Hand/sword: Using takt on a severed arm/blade

Law's a swordsman but take away his DF enhancements and he's not near the competitor he is with it, without Room and his DF Law wouldn't have radio Kinfe, Injection Shot, Amputate or his range since he doesn't have flying slashes. How is this different than Mihawk beating Shanks in swords but losing if Conq. Haki is thrown into the fight?
 

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Law is a swordsman whose DF skill exceeds his swordsmanship.
No they don't. Law's swordsmanship was sufficiently to duel with Smoker and Doflamingo when his DF wasn't usable.

but it's below his DF use
You know what's really funny about this argument? Law's DF use IS his swordplay. Law has swordsmanship. He has some DF abilities that don't require a sword. And his main fighting style is combining them into a new form of swordplay.

Remove Law's sword, and the effectiveness of his DF plummets. It is INTEGRAL to what makes him a strong fighter. Therefore, he falls into the criteria of a swordsman just like the rest. Next.

If Law fought Zoro pure swords, he'd lose but if Law fought in his typical fashion he'd likely be able to win.
That means that Zoro is superior to Law in basic swordplay. That doesn't mean what Law does isn't still swordplay, it's just a unique form. This bullshit argument is like saying "Zoro loses if he fights without Haki and just swords." The principles are the EXACT same.

And we've already went over how despite Law being a swordsman most of his attacks are centered around his DF and the ones that utilize his sword are almost all done in conjunction with his df;
Room - Hand: Primary DF offensive tech. necessary for other techs.
Amputate - sword: slash modified by room
Radio Knife - counter shock on sword slash
Shambles - Hand: telekinesis
Personality Transplant - non offensive
Takt - Hand: telekinesis
Scan - sword: non offensive
Mes - hand
Counter Shock - electric based attack done with hands
Injection Shot - sword
Gamma Knife - energy blade not his sword
Sterben - Hand/sword: Using takt on a severed arm/blade
Law has 11 techniques. 6 of them(Sterben, Amputate, Radio Knife, Injection Shot, Personality Transplant, and Scan require him to incorporate his sword. There's also the fact that Shambles is used in tandem with his blade(often teleporting to enemies blind spot to strike at them with his sword, and switching things he's cut with Chambres). Takt is also more useful when used with Amputate(when he uses Takt to attack Doflamingo, he first uses Amputate to create his "ammunition.")

So more than half of Law's techniques revolve around his sword, and two of them are complimented by usages of his sword. Leaving only 3 out of 11(4 out of 12 if counting Room) that do not involve his sword whatsoever.

So even when they don't utilize his sword to be performed, only one-third of Law's techniques aren't complimented by swordplay in some way when all of his canon techniques are considered.

Law's a swordsman but take away his DF enhancements and he's not near the competitor he is with it without Room and his DF Law wouldn't have radio Kinfe, Injection Shot, Amputate or his range since he doesn't have flying slashes.
Take away his sword, and he loses 2/3rds of what makes his DF abilities effective for combat. Two-thirds of it. TWO-THIRDS.

How is this different than Mihawk beating Shanks in swords but losing if Conq. Haki is thrown into the fight?
Because, as with the failure of your Law argument, there has yet to be a character who is a swordsman have a fighting style that is superior to his swordplay. So, by portrayal of swordsmen in OP, it doesn't matter how good Shanks is with Haoshoku, it's not gonna be better than his best method of swordplay, so he still loses to Mihawk until portrayal is changed.
 

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A swordsman is a fighter whose main source of power comes from their swordplay. This doesn't apply if you're Shanks though, Shanks is a hakisman :lmao:
 
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