Uchiha clan not against the village..

[KingHashirama]

Treason:
[FONT=arial, sans-serif](the crime of betraying one's country, especially by [/FONT]attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government[FONT=arial, sans-serif].)[/FONT]Keep trying to convince yourself
[FONT=arial, sans-serif].
Danzo wasn't the leader of the village the uchihas didn't approach the leader of the village an try to work it out with a diplomatic solution what they were planning to do is no better than danzo scheming to become to hokage all they wanted was power.[/FONT]

As I stated before, and I will state it again. It is right of the people to overthrow their government in a democratic society if the government no longer listens to the will of the people, and is corrupted, and has gone off from the ideals which it was instituted on.

Key phrase you are forgetting is that "the crime of betraying one's country," Uchiha weren't betraying their village. To abolish a government in your country or to make a revolution against your government in your country doesn't = going against your country. Instead it is called reforming your country. Big difference.

"all the wanted was power".. I would like a scan showing this or even stating or hinting this..


Hiruzen = The leader who was forgave a person who killed countless konoha ninja for his petty experiments and just let him go. And the leader who kept a guy on his right side, when he was f*cking up relations up and down... and going against the morals that founded Konoha.


Uchiha did what there right was. You cannot have a reform against corruption, without a revolution. If you are saying those who go for revolution are betraying their country, then you obviously have no understanding of democracy.

Revolution : a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system.

 

[-Spoiler-]

As I stated before, and I will state it again. It is right of the people to overthrow their government in a democratic society if the government no longer listens to the will of the people, and is corrupted, and has gone off from the ideals which it was instituted on.

Key phrase you are forgetting is that "the crime of betraying one's country," Uchiha weren't betraying their village. To abolish a government in your country or to make a revolution against your government in your country doesn't = going against your country. Instead it is called reforming your country. Big difference.

"all the wanted was power".. I would like a scan showing this or even stating or hinting this..


Hiruzen = The leader who was forgave a person who killed countless konoha ninja for his petty experiments and just let him go. And the leader who kept a guy on his right side, when he was f*cking up relations up and down... and going against the morals that founded Konoha.


Uchiha did what there right was. You cannot have a reform against corruption, without a revolution. If you are saying those who go for revolution are betraying their country, then you obviously have no understanding of democracy.

Revolution : a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system.

No longer listens to the people or the uchihas?
get your facts straight the uchihas aren't the voice of konoha what they were planning to do wasn't for the people it was for themselves. if every group of people felt the ha the right to overthrow governements when they ont get their ways the world would be in chaos.
so what would have happen if after the uchihas took over does that mean if the Hyuugas or Inuzukas or Naras felt the uchiha government is corrupt does that mean they should overthrow them as well?

 

[KingHashirama]

No longer listens to the people or the uchihas?
get your facts straight the uchihas aren't the voice of konoha what they were planning to do wasn't for the people it was for themselves. if every group of people felt the ha the right to overthrow governements when they ont get their ways the world would be in chaos.
so what would have happen if after the uchihas took over does that mean if the Hyuugas or Inuzukas or Naras felt the uchiha government is corrupt does that mean they should overthrow them as well?

Are Uchiha not the people? So you are saying part of the people doesn't = the people.. but the people as a whole = the people? What?

Even a group of 10 = the people.

Actually, the world would be a better place if people overthrew their governments like the Uchiha were trying to , when knowing the government is corrupt.

Here is the thing, who said Uchiha were going for dictatorship? You do realize Uchiha weren't just a loner clan.... lol. They were friends with others in the village also. lol.

There would have been no "Uchiha government".. since the goal wasn't "uchiha government".. but to reform the current government.



Also, let me just give you a quote from the 3rd president himself:


"Prudence ... will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."


Show me the corruption of Uchiha, and then you have an argument.

 

[-Spoiler-]

Are Uchiha not the people? So you are saying part of the people doesn't = the people.. but the people as a whole = the people? What?

Even a group of 10 = the people.

Actually, the world would be a better place if people overthrew their governments like the Uchiha were trying to , when knowing the government is corrupt.

Here is the thing, who said Uchiha were going for dictatorship? You do realize Uchiha weren't just a loner clan.... lol. They were friends with others in the village also. lol.

There would have been no "Uchiha government".. since the goal wasn't "uchiha government".. but to reform the current government

Show me the corruption of Uchiha, and then you have an argument.

@bold unless you're naive to the current world you would know that's actually retarded. who would justify when its right overthrow a government?
how would there be a stable government if people are always going to be fighting each other to run things
@underline :| you seriously dont want me to answer that do you? the corruption of a uchiha is what got them isolated in the first place

Yes they were friends with other but did they involve anyone else in the reforming of the government? no.

all you're giving is BS speculations about reforming governments when all the uchihas were aiming for was taking over, if it was as simple as you say why didn't itachi and shisui side with their clan? because they knew it would end up in war.

 

[vasu 32]

That's why the moment sasuke killed that bastard,he became a hero in my eyes. The village too will thank him for that,once the truth is out.

 

[iNotorious]

Danzo was an ******* the whole time tried to be the hokage. Thank god he got his ass whooped like a big mac. I feel like re-watching the kage arc again just to see his face/plans failing.

 

[-ahhimane-]

That explains Sasuke's character will be developed more on the topic "Why he wants to become Hokage"

 

[Neonian]

Danzo is a bish

 

[-immortal-]

Do you now understand why Lord Sasuke is a Saviour? à hero. GG

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all haill Lord Sasuke !

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[Anorien16]

There is more than it meets the eye in this scenario .... The Uchiha were strangely absent during the Kurama attack (Itachi a 6 year old was left with a newborn Sasuke alone at home. None of them were seen fighting Kurama ...... Doesnt that seem fishy?)

Also the Uchiha Police Force was not under the Hokage .... It was institution with power to detain/punish anyone except those directly under the Hokage (Thats political and civil power granted for free to every Uchiha btw).

Itachi was double agent .... even the Uchiha used him as a spy.

Hiruzen actually tried the solve stuff diplomatically.

Uchiha was killed not because they wanted power, but because resulting the civil war and political unrest (Many clans may desert or pick opposing sides) would only divide and weaken the yet recovering village (Large swath of village was destroyed in the Kurama attack .... and 6 years is not enough to replenish the militia or the economy) and make them easy targets for other villages who tries to destroy them the every other Friday.

Also Before you start speaking learn what a coup means ... and explain how it was going to be done without unrest or bloodshed.

Nagato should have killed Danzo too ....

 

[Amaterasuice]

Kinghashirama, this is my favorite thread I've read from you or thread period that I've seen in a long time. Congrats!

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Treason:
[FONT=arial, sans-serif](the crime of betraying one's country, especially by [/FONT]attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government[FONT=arial, sans-serif].)[/FONT]Keep trying to convince yourself
[FONT=arial, sans-serif].
Danzo wasn't the leader of the village the uchihas didn't approach the leader of the village an try to work it out with a diplomatic solution what they were planning to do is no better than danzo scheming to become to hokage all they wanted was power.[/FONT]

But the elders were essentially breaking the laws that the leaf was built on and as such, traitors and criminals themselves. The Uchiha have no political power, that was the point of them being put into the police force. They have no influence, so their "diplomacy" only amounts to begging. They had no say in the government because the elders broke the rules. Wars have been started for this very reason (the revolutionary war, which created the United States). It is a legitimate reason to start a war, much more a coup. If an authority breaks the rules meant to limit their power, they are no longer a legitimate authority and none should recognize their rule. However, authorities won't give up their power because they were caught doing criminal policies. There would have to be a certain degree of force necessary.

 

[MorphyRulez]

I'll agree with you. Hiruzen is really weak for a being Leader/Hokage. He's too soft. Maybe he would be good teacher/friend/Mentor but being a Hokage.. It's kinda funny how hokage elected in narutoverse. If you're too stronk ok. You re going to hokage. Mind =/= power. As for me perfect Hokage was Tobirama. What i read from manga. He was already aware of all these problems. And he tried to give them goal like he made them Police. He has Uchiha student too. He was stuying Uchiha's too. How MS/Sharingan unlocked etc etc. But Hiruzen is kinda worse than Naruto. Too soft, he is trying to follow Hashirama's path kinda. But it's not right %100 even. You need to be cruel sometimes. About Danzo, as for me. He's just power seek monster. He doesnt care about Konoha as he tend to. He only thinks about himself and reasoning konoha to others. And the worse part is he's more evil than many akatsuki members. But always saying, i did everything for Konoha's Sake. And Uchiha's kinda right about Danzo's behaviour but, still they're gonna hurt village too. But it was both Danzo and Hiruzen fault. If Hiruzen managed to stop Danzo's some moves. Uchihas wont try to attack imo. Because they lived together so far why all this sudden? cause of hiruzen&danzo. Main reason is Danzo and following it to Hiruzen cuz he didnt stop danzo too. Danzo is too powerful. He has his own ANBU i mean... It's huge and all of them is stronk as .... You shouldnt gave power like this to another else in village.

 

[KingHashirama]

@bold unless you're naive to the current world you would know that's actually retarded. who would justify when its right overthrow a government?
how would there be a stable government if people are always going to be fighting each other to run things
@underline :| you seriously dont want me to answer that do you? the corruption of a uchiha is what got them isolated in the first place

Yes they were friends with other but did they involve anyone else in the reforming of the government? no.

all you're giving is BS speculations about reforming governments when all the uchihas were aiming for was taking over, if it was as simple as you say why didn't itachi and shisui side with their clan? because they knew it would end up in war.

Well i guess you support North Korea.. you have fun with that. Government is nothing more than an institution built by the people to secure their rights.. When the governments start breaking the laws, then people have the right to overthrow them. Is that to hard to understand?

Yea please answer that for me.. Cause last time i recall only people corrupted in the whole thing were the government of konoha. And i suggest rereading the manga. Tobirama kept in check due to their MS..

Same Itachi who admit he did the wrong thing in the coup? Shisui who was still a child? Oh get real. And no i'm not making speculations. I'm simply telling you what "revolution" is.. ok understand what a revolution is .. it isn't a take over.. it is implied to create a new system/institution. So yea...

As I stated before, revolutions are a must to have a justified government. Unless you are implying Colonies should have stayed under britian.. And people should have quietly listened to Hitler/Stalin..

There is more than it meets the eye in this scenario .... The Uchiha were strangely absent during the Kurama attack (Itachi a 6 year old was left with a newborn Sasuke alone at home. None of them were seen fighting Kurama ...... Doesnt that seem fishy?)

Also the Uchiha Police Force was not under the Hokage .... It was institution with power to detain/punish anyone except those directly under the Hokage (Thats political and civil power granted for free to every Uchiha btw).

Itachi was double agent .... even the Uchiha used him as a spy.

Hiruzen actually tried the solve stuff diplomatically.

Uchiha was killed not because they wanted power, but because resulting the civil war and political unrest (Many clans may desert or pick opposing sides) would only divide and weaken the yet recovering village (Large swath of village was destroyed in the Kurama attack .... and 6 years is not enough to replenish the militia or the economy) and make them easy targets for other villages who tries to destroy them the every other Friday.

Also Before you start speaking learn what a coup means ... and explain how it was going to be done without unrest or bloodshed.

Nagato should have killed Danzo too ....

Funny how Danzo was also absent on that night =].

Funny how Danzo after that tried to have Hiruzen assassinated..

False, Danzo already cleared up the whole "war" crap, when he stated whether it results in a war or not.. the moment Uchiha decide to do a coup, they are calling for their end.

ONLY REASON ITACHI AGREED WITH DANZO WAS FOR 2 REASONS:

- Danzo threatening him to be either killed with the entire uchiha clan, or save 1 uchiha and help kill the entire clan.

- Obito was threatening to attack the village..

And coincidentally Obito happened to meet Danzo at the time of the coup also. And funny how Danzo is the guy who said that it doesn't matter if a war occured or not (This was an extreme speculation.) And coincidentally on top of that Obito also wanted the Uchiha dead =].

And on top of that its more funny that Koharu (elder woman) said that the Uchiha are going after THEIR power.. she didn't say against the village.. but happened to mention their power. And right on the spot declared them traitors.

Hiruzen tried to solve stuff diplomatic.. but never started.. and was about to start when the coup was ready to happen.

JUST BECAUSE A COUP CAUSES UNREST, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT ISN'T JUSTIFIED. TO HAVE A BETTER GOVERNMENT COUPS/REVOLUTIONS ARE NECESSARY. THEY KEEP THE GOVERNMENT IN CHECK.

I know exactly what a coup is, and i have been talking about it for the last 10 posts.

But apparently the Konoha government is now innocent according to you. Besides the facts delivered to your face. You should have followed your advice on "There is more than it meets the eye in this scenario".

 

[shelke]

Treason:
[FONT=arial, sans-serif](the crime of betraying one's country, especially by [/FONT]attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign or government[FONT=arial, sans-serif].)[/FONT]Keep trying to convince yourself
[FONT=arial, sans-serif].
Danzo wasn't the leader of the village the uchihas didn't approach the leader of the village an try to work it out with a diplomatic solution what they were planning to do is no better than danzo scheming to become to hokage all they wanted was power.[/FONT]

Soverign government? How is Konoha a sovereign government? My letting Hizuren escape, the leader didn't commit treason against all those heinously murdered by Orochimaru? Danzo was leaking Anbu files to Orochimaru, he conspired and slaughtered a clan, killed Ninjas of the leaf without any political cause, yet he was granted political immunity - that is not treason? The Senju Clan and its sympathizers cornered a founding clan, when they had just as much right to 'civil, military, and governmental rights' within the formed Village and did so, with underhanded political tactics that would one day jeopardize the political set up - this isn't treason?

Danzo was not the leader of the village. I cannot believe you're making stuff up over and over again, declaring a dictatorial set-up a sovereign rules, talking of treason when the leaders themselves committed many treasonous acts. Give me a break. Don't make me laugh.

 

[shelke]

Soverign government? How is Konoha a sovereign government? By letting Orochimaru escape, the leader didn't commit treason against all those heinously murdered by Orochimaru? Danzo was leaking Anbu files to Orochimaru, he conspired and slaughtered a clan, killed Ninjas of the leaf without any political cause, yet he was granted political immunity - that is not treason? The Senju Clan and its sympathizers cornered a founding clan, when they had just as much right to 'civil, military, and governmental rights' within the formed Village and did so, with underhanded political tactics that would one day jeopardize the political set up - this isn't treason?

Danzo was not the leader of the village. I cannot believe you're making stuff up over and over again, declaring a dictatorial set-up a sovereign rules, talking of treason when the leaders themselves committed many treasonous acts. Give me a break. Don't make me laugh.

Post edited. I am afraid my edit function is out again.

 

[SageOfTheTenPaths]

Its all Hiruzens fault, he is the worst Hokage of all time. Leting Danzo do as he pleases while knowing he was a ***** traitor.

 

[paratise]

I don't agree with you generally, but this was a good read.

 

[-Spoiler-]

Soverign government? How is Konoha a sovereign government? My letting Hizuren escape, the leader didn't commit treason against all those heinously murdered by Orochimaru? Danzo was leaking Anbu files to Orochimaru, he conspired and slaughtered a clan, killed Ninjas of the leaf without any political cause, yet he was granted political immunity - that is not treason? The Senju Clan and its sympathizers cornered a founding clan, when they had just as much right to 'civil, military, and governmental rights' within the formed Village and did so, with underhanded political tactics that would one day jeopardize the political set up - this isn't treason?

Danzo was not the leader of the village. I cannot believe you're making stuff up over and over again, declaring a dictatorial set-up a sovereign rules, talking of treason when the leaders themselves committed many treasonous acts. Give me a break. Don't make me laugh.

I didn't say konoha was a sovereign government i gave the definition of treason which sai attempting to kill or overthrow the sovereign OR government which the uchihas were guilty of i don't know why you guys are trying to act like they weren't just as much offender as the other side.

 

[Anorien16]

Funny how Danzo was also absent on that night =].

Funny how Danzo after that tried to have Hiruzen assassinated..

False, Danzo already cleared up the whole "war" crap, when he stated whether it results in a war or not.. the moment Uchiha decide to do a coup, they are calling for their end.

So Danzo represents the entirety of Konoha leadership right? ..... Not to mention by comparing Danzo with the Uchiha Clan in the same light you just made it seem that both were corrupt power hungry factions, which I think you are trying to avoid.

Not to mention dont argue like stubborn donkey and ****ing notice what I said: We dont know full details yet.

ONLY REASON ITACHI AGREED WITH DANZO WAS FOR 2 REASONS:
- Danzo threatening him to be either killed with the entire uchiha clan, or save 1 uchiha and help kill the entire clan.
- Obito was threatening to attack the village..

So it had nothing to do with protecting the village from greater degree of bloodshed? You really mean to say that?

And coincidentally Obito happened to meet Danzo at the time of the coup also. And funny how Danzo is the guy who said that it doesn't matter if a war occured or not (This was an extreme speculation.) And coincidentally on top of that Obito also wanted the Uchiha dead =].

How funny that Danzo covers his tracks well .... How funny you think because of Danzo good people like Hiruzen and his supporters and the entire village needs to be in mortal danger .....

And on top of that its more funny that Koharu (elder woman) said that the Uchiha are going after THEIR power.. she didn't say against the village.. but happened to mention their power. And right on the spot declared them traitors.

Dah, what was the Uchiha planning a coup for? For free milk and honey? It was a power struggle ..... the Uchiha WERE going to seize political power not nuke the village, so why would the village be mentioned in the first place ..... Also ****ing learn that one man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter and no one is gonna call someone trying to kill/replace himself/herself a hero.

Hiruzen tried to solve stuff diplomatic.. but never started.. and was about to start when the coup was ready to happen.

This statement just confirms u have damn no understanding of anything your saying .... the Coup, which basically means a armed rebellion never happened as the Uchiha were massacred in a preemptive strike.

JUST BECAUSE A COUP CAUSES UNREST, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT ISN'T JUSTIFIED. TO HAVE A BETTER GOVERNMENT COUPS/REVOLUTIONS ARE NECESSARY. THEY KEEP THE GOVERNMENT IN CHECK.

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS NOT JUSTIFIED DOESNT MEAN IT IS NOT A EVIL NECESSITY. TO HAVE A BETTER GOVERNMENT THE COUNTRY MUST BE SOVEREIGN AND LEFT MORE OR LESS INTACT, NOT WIPED AWAY BY VENGEFUL MALICIOUS NEIGHBORS WHO WOULD SURELY EXPLOIT ANY WEAKNESS. NOT TO MENTION FOR A PROPER COUP/REVOLUTION THEY MUST BE GUIDED BY PROPER IDEALS NOT MERE RESENTMENT AND DESIRES OF VENGEANCE WHICH WOULD ESTABLISH A BARELY FUNCTIONING AUTHORITY IF IT SUCCEEDS.

I know exactly what a coup is, and i have been talking about it for the last 10 posts.

Apparently you have no idea ....

coup
kuː/
noun
noun: coup; plural noun: coups; noun: coup d'état; plural noun: coup d'états; plural noun: coups d'état

1.
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

But apparently the Konoha government is now innocent according to you. Besides the facts delivered to your face. You should have followed your advice on "There is more than it meets the eye in this scenario".

Ohhh really? Is it just like how you think that the Uchiha are innocent of not risking the very existence of the village with narrow minded vision when much more peaceful methods existed? ..... Not to mention since you seem to think that since one man's misdeeds (ahem Danzo) paints the entire chain of command guilty doesn't fact that the Oibito and Madara are Uchiha mean that the entire Uchiha clan were power hungry, heartless maniacs?