SM Jiraiya vs Itachi

[KidGamer65]

Jiraiya takes it mid difficulty, probably low.

Its funny that when Itachi is put against someone like SM Naruto people always claim Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi is countered by clones but when it comes to Jiraiya, who can not only make clones but completely wipe out all his vision with Dust Cloud, he still gets defeated by those techniques. The bias is strong.

>Talks about bias.

>Says Jiraiya mid, probably low, diffs Itachi.

Lol. That irony.

 

[LuckyMan]

Yes, use a Dust Cloud that Itachi shunshins out of and lights on fire with his Katon (the jutsu is Futon enhanced by Senjutsu, so the air would be holding up dust particles). Not to mention, Dust cloud is not blinding Itachi, it will only prevent him from seeing Ma since the cloud has an identical chakra color to her own. Jiraiya and Pa are still standing out from it.

Counter balancing. A Sage enhanced Futon is stronger than any Katon Itachi has. The power of Ma's technique can null Itachis Katons out.

Except it is blinding Itachi. You're comparing the Hidden Mist Technique with the Dust Cloud and assuming they both have the same mechanics, which they don't. Deva and the rest of the Paths couldn't even see Naruto through the Dust Cloud because if he could he would not have been wondering where they went and Nagato (via Animal Path) would have seen Gambunta and Naruto coming, which he didn't.

 

[Apêx1]

Counter balancing. A Sage enhanced Futon is stronger than any Katon Itachi has. The power of Ma's technique can null Itachis Katons out.

Not sure if srs.. Katon's strength is amplified by more oxygen/Futon. Don't see exactly how Katon will be nullified by a jutsu which has no offensive/defensive power in the first place.

Except it is blinding Itachi. You're comparing the Hidden Mist Technique with the Dust Cloud and assuming they both have the same mechanics, which they don't. Deva and the rest of the Paths couldn't even see Naruto through the Dust Cloud because if he could he would not have been wondering where they went and Nagato (via Animal Path) would have seen Gambunta and Naruto coming, which he didn't.

No reason for me not to. Sharingan has better insight than the fake Rinnegan. Rinnegan needs light to see, Sharingan does not. Rinnegan cannot distinguish chakra color, Sharingan can. No real argument on your side here. Apart from the fallacious second hand Rinnegan matching up to the real Rinnegan/Sharingan. Either way, point is Sharingan=|= Rinnegan so you either prove how Sharingan is blinded or my point stands.

 

[EliteKakashi]

I'm not going to bother with a "who I think will win" post because I'm honestly not sure, but to cover a couple of points made here:

-Ma and Pa may help Jiraiya escape Genjutsu, but no one will be helping them escape Genjutsu from Itachi. Itachi takes control of them and has them stick their tongue into Jiraiya's ear, killing him (srs). Same applies for Bunta, he gets put under Genjutsu and kills Jiraiya with Suiton bullets and normal attacks. Furthermore, even if they somehow don't get used to kill Jiraiya, Ma/Pa would be out of control and thus not gather Senjutsu for Jiraiya. And yes, Jiraiya leaves SM instantly[

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][

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]. Meaning if Itachi decides to cast Tsukiyomi on Ma and Pa, the rest of the fight is Base Jiraiya and one of the elder toads vs Itachi, something Itachi definitely wins.

The problem with this argument is the idea that Fukasaku and Shima are actually dumb enough to stare a sharingan user in the eyes. And in the case that they're not aware(which I have no idea why or how one would make the argument that they're not, given how wise they are), there's no reason Jiraiya doesn't inform them of what they're up against. Itachi would actually have to go out of his way to make eye contact with them.

He can use Amaterasu or Katon to heat up the area he is trapped in, allowing him to harden the mud and break out, or he can make clones to pull him out.

Once he's out, Susanoo comes back up, if it was put down to begin with.

His clones are not going to be strong enough to pull him out, and as the databook states:

The more you struggle, the more you sink
A bottomless swamp from Hell!!

So katon is not an option as Itachi is not going to be able to perform handsigns, as it sinks the enemy. And while amaterasu might be an option, this is chakra-infused mud. Is it going to react the same to heat as regular mud?

By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body. It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape from there. The size and depth of the created swamp depend on the user's skill and the amount of chakra used, but if the user is an expert in this technique, it will always be possible to make a fair-sized swamp! When fighting a great number of enemies or having to face gigantic creatures, this is an extremely effective technique.

↓The giant snake captured in this bog is prevented from moving! But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient. The real goal of this technique is to completely submerge the target underground.
[picture of Orochimaru's snake summon caught in this technique]

Jiraiya was drugged during his fight with Orochimaru and thus wasn't able to properly perform the technique.

 

[KidGamer65]

His clones are not going to be strong enough to pull him out, and as the databook states:



So katon is not an option as Itachi is not going to be able to perform handsigns, as it sinks the enemy. And while amaterasu might be an option, this is chakra-infused mud. Is it going to react the same to heat as regular mud?



Jiraiya was drugged during his fight with Orochimaru and thus wasn't able to properly perform the technique.

It's mud, why wouldn't his clones be able to pull him out?

The more the trapped person struggles. Someone pulling Itachi out isn't Itachi struggling, so he won't sink further. Also, he has to actually sink far enough below the mud for handsigns to be unusable. Unless Itachi sits there and waits to sink, then this won't be an issue.

No reason why it wouldn't. Suiton is still Water, gets evaporated by Katon, which is still fire.

 

[EliteKakashi]

It's mud, why wouldn't his clones be able to pull him out?

The more the trapped person struggles. Someone pulling Itachi out isn't Itachi struggling, so he won't sink further. Also, he has to actually sink far enough below the mud for handsigns to be unusable. Unless Itachi sits there and waits to sink, then this won't be an issue.

No reason why it wouldn't. Suiton is still Water, gets evaporated by Katon, which is still fire.

The clones still have to be able to counterbalance the adhesiveness/suction of the mud. And considering giant snakes which have god knows how many more times the power that Itachi or his clones have were completely incapable of even moving in the mud(in a watered down version of the technique, no less), I have no reason to believe his clones are going to be powerful enough to pull him from it, or if they're even fast enough. It's hard to argue speed given we never saw a full scale version of it in action, but against Pein he used a much smaller version of the technique and it sunk the path's hands and feet instantly.

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Also, another issue here is how big of a swamp Jiraiya makes and where Itachi is located in it. Assuming it's a decent sized swamp, his clones are going to have a hard time getting to him and pulling him out without getting stuck in the swamp itself.

And I wasn't trying to argue one way or the other if it would. Although what's interesting is vs Pein he used it on the surface of a pipe ceiling, and it did not appear that the ceiling turned to mud, but the surface of the pipe sucked in Pein. I'm not really sure how that worked, but it's an interesting way to look at it none the less.

 

[Apêx1]

I'm not going to bother with a "who I think will win" post because I'm honestly not sure, but to cover a couple of points made here:



The problem with this argument is the idea that Fukasaku and Shima are actually dumb enough to stare a sharingan user in the eyes. And in the case that they're not aware(which I have no idea why or how one would make the argument that they're not, given how wise they are), there's no reason Jiraiya doesn't inform them of what they're up against. Itachi would actually have to go out of his way to make eye contact with them.

Hm? How is that an argument? Ma and Pa will look at his eyes because Jiraiya has, Sasuke has, Kakashi has, Naruto has, etc. It's impossible to not look at his eyes unless you're trained at fighting like Gai, which they aren't. Being wise doesn't mean they are immune to mistakes or even intelligent for that matter, don't see the logic there. They simply possess a lot of knowledge, nothing more, nothing less. Knowledge=/=intelligence. Itachi would have the easies time of his life putting them in Genjutsu, because as far as I can tell, they lack any genjutsu evasion feats or implications. They have eyes, so Itachi will put them under Genjutsu as he does to everyone else.

 

[KidGamer65]

The clones still have to be able to counterbalance the adhesiveness/suction of the mud. And considering giant snakes which have god knows how many more times the power that Itachi or his clones have were completely incapable of even moving in the mud(in a watered down version of the technique, no less), I have no reason to believe his clones are going to be powerful enough to pull him from it, or if they're even fast enough. It's hard to argue speed given we never saw a full scale version of it in action, but against Pein he used a much smaller version of the technique and it sunk the path's hands and feet instantly.

Yeah, that's because the snakes were the ones caught. It's harder to get out if you are trapped due to how the mud works, but if you are pulling someone trapped out, it's easier. So you have no evidence to even begin to suggest that his clones can't pull him out.

Then there is Katon.

Also, another issue here is how big of a swamp Jiraiya makes and where Itachi is located in it. Assuming it's a decent sized swamp, his clones are going to have a hard time getting to him and pulling him out without getting stuck in the swamp itself.

If they are formed on top of the mud, they can focus chakra to the feet and stand on it, didn't work for Human because it was formed right under him.

And I wasn't trying to argue one way or the other if it would. Although what's interesting is vs Pein he used it on the surface of a pipe ceiling, and it did not appear that the ceiling turned to mud, but the surface of the pipe sucked in Pein. I'm not really sure how that worked, but it's an interesting way to look at it none the less.

Probably cause it's similar to quicksand.

 

[Strict]

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[EliteKakashi]

Hm? How is that an argument? Ma and Pa will look at his eyes because Jiraiya has, Sasuke has, Kakashi has, Naruto has, etc. It's impossible to not look at his eyes unless you're trained at fighting like Gai, which they aren't. Being wise doesn't mean they are immune to mistakes or even intelligent for that matter, don't see the logic there. They simply possess a lot of knowledge, nothing more, nothing less. Knowledge=/=intelligence. Itachi would have the easies time of his life putting them in Genjutsu, because as far as I can tell, they lack any genjutsu evasion feats or implications. They have eyes, so Itachi will put them under Genjutsu as he does to everyone else.

Jiraiya has intel on Tsukuyomi from it being used on Kakashi and Sasuke, and the ignoring eye contact aspect is a usable/advisable method even without training in it. Kakashi even tells Naruto, Sakura and Chiyo to avoid eye contact in their encounter with him.

It's noted to be difficult by people not trained in it, but with all the years of experience Fukasaku and Shima have in fighting(as well as Jiraiya), they would be able to manage, I would imagine.

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And Fukasaku has shown to have knowledge on both the byakugan and the rinnegan. He's a well informed toad.

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[Ghost in the Shell]

@Apex, didn't mean to dislike that post. My mistake.

 

[Apêx1]

Jiraiya has intel on Tsukuyomi from it being used on Kakashi and Sasuke, and the ignoring eye contact aspect is a usable/advisable method even without training in it. Kakashi even tells Naruto, Sakura and Chiyo to avoid eye contact in their encounter with him.

It's noted to be difficult by people not trained in it, but with all the years of experience Fukasaku and Shima have in fighting(as well as Jiraiya), they would be able to manage, I would imagine.

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And Fukasaku has shown to have knowledge on both the byakugan and the rinnegan. He's a well informed toad.

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What? He doesn't need intel, he already has full intel from OP stipulations. And no, it's not a usable training method, Asuma and Kurenai clearly said it wasn't possible for someone who hasn't trained in it. Unless you can literally give me evidence for it being possible, then you have no argument here. All these baseless claims aren't getting you anywhere. And Kakashi tells them to do so against a 30% Kakashi, who still ends up putting Naruto in genjutsu. So that point goes out the window.

To be honest, I don't care. I'll make this simple for you, show me implications or feats of their capabilities of such and then we're talking. Otherwise you really need to stop with all this conjecture, it's getting tiring. Experience is none of my concern. It doesn't mean anything to a genjutsu master like Itachi whose intelligence is unrivalled.

Cool, he has basic Dojutsu knowledge of the Byakugan which a Genin can know and was capable of realising the Rinnegan's capabilities since Jiraiya was too stupid to. How does that help your argument again? Because I see no feats here, and no feats means you have no argument.

@Apex, didn't mean to dislike that post. My mistake.

Lol, don't worry about it.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Yeah, that's because the snakes were the ones caught. It's harder to get out if you are trapped due to how the mud works, but if you are pulling someone trapped out, it's easier. So you have no evidence to even begin to suggest that his clones can't pull him out.

Then there is Katon.

Well yes, it's impossible to get out by yourself, but that's not the point I'm making here. The point is the snakes couldn't move..period. That's how strong the adhesive of the mud is. That's how great the suction is. Even someone pulling from the outside is going to require a ton of strength to overpower that suction. Itachi has never shown any strength feats that leads me to believe he or his clones have that kind of power.

Yes, there's katon as well. But that's also assuming(as is the clones pulling Itachi out), that Jiraiya is just gonna sit back and watch.

If they are formed on top of the mud, they can focus chakra to the feet and stand on it, didn't work for Human because it was formed right under him.

How are we sure that using the surface walking method even would work here? And again, still have the issue of Jiraiya not just waiting around for this to happen.

 

[EliteKakashi]

What? He doesn't need intel, he already has full intel from OP stipulations. And no, it's not a usable training method, Asuma and Kurenai clearly said it wasn't possible for someone who hasn't trained in it. Unless you can literally give me evidence for it being possible, then you have no argument here. All these baseless claims aren't getting you anywhere. And Kakashi tells them to do so against a 30% Kakashi, who still ends up putting Naruto in genjutsu. So that point goes out the window.

Except Naruto isn't trapped by a sharingan genjutsu. He gets trapped via Itachi's finger genjutsu, which has no use here thanks to the partner method. And I'm not sure what the 30% thing matters given they didn't know that going in to the fight.

And I really don't understand what's so hard to believe about a ninja of Jiraiya's caliber being incapable of avoiding eye contact in a fight. Itachi even gives the same advice to Bee in their altercation.

And Gai states in response to Asuma and Kurenai's doubts to just get used to doing it.

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And it's not even a must that they fight focusing solely on Itachi's feet, they just have to keep their eyesight from neck level down.

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Even Itachi expects someone of Bee's level to be able to accomplish that.

To be honest, I don't care. I'll make this simple for you, show me implications or feats of their capabilities of such and then we're talking. Otherwise you really need to stop with all this conjecture, it's getting tiring. Experience is none of my concern. It doesn't mean anything to a genjutsu master like Itachi whose intelligence is unrivalled.

I'm not trying to compare the intelligence of Fukasaku to Itachi, nor have I even mentioned Itachi's intelligence. I'm simply pointing out that these toads aren't idiots, and are high-level fighters in their own right who are fully capable of fighting in this method.

Cool, he has basic Dojutsu knowledge of the Byakugan which a Genin can know and was capable of realising the Rinnegan's capabilities since Jiraiya was too stupid to. How does that help your argument again? Because I see no feats here, and no feats means you have no argument.

Jiraiya has only encountered, on panel, one Sharingan user, and that was in a situation where he completely had the upper hand/had Itachi and Kisame on the run, thus not needing any method to avoid eye contact.. So obviously I don't have feats that he can do it, but I don't see why it's necessary either.

I mean if you want to make the argument that Jiraiya is completely incapable of avoiding eye contact with Itachi, then be my guest, I guess, cause I really have no idea what to even say to something like that, but oh well.

 

[Apêx1]

Except Naruto isn't trapped by a sharingan genjutsu. He gets trapped via Itachi's finger genjutsu, which has no use here thanks to the partner method. And I'm not sure what the 30% thing matters given they didn't know that going in to the fight.

And I really don't understand what's so hard to believe about a ninja of Jiraiya's caliber being incapable of avoiding eye contact in a fight. Itachi even gives the same advice to Bee in their altercation.

And Gai states in response to Asuma and Kurenai's doubts to just get used to doing it.

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And it's not even a must that they fight focusing solely on Itachi's feet, they just have to keep their eyesight from neck level down.

Stop this conjecture, my god.
Yes, Genjutsu is Genjutsu. If Ma is trapped in Genjutsu, Jiraiya loses his SM. Itachi then blitzes or kills the obvious Jiraiya with Amateratsu/Tsukiyomi. Or he simply takes advantage of their distraction and lands Tsukiyomi on Pa. Either way, she/he gets caught by something.

And Jiraiya is incapable of dodging Genjutsu cus;

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Pa and Ma are not Jiraiya, they lack feats of Genjutsu evasion, meaning they get caught by the greatest Genjutsu user in the manga. End of story. Bee is given the advice yet he's still caught in Genjutsu. See my point?.............
Gai is an idiot, and they didn't listen because they knew they couldn't. Stop trying to argue this irrefutable manga fact.
And then Finger Genjutsu lands, so that point is moot. Then Itachi bends his knees and makes eye contact. So no, look at his feet or it's gg, to bad they can't.

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Even Itachi expects someone of Bee's level to be able to accomplish that.



I'm not trying to compare the intelligence of Fukasaku to Itachi, nor have I even mentioned Itachi's intelligence. I'm simply pointing out that these toads aren't idiots, and are high-level fighters in their own right who are fully capable of fighting in this method.



Jiraiya has only encountered, on panel, one Sharingan user, and that was in a situation where he completely had the upper hand/had Itachi and Kisame on the run, thus not needing any method to avoid eye contact.. So obviously I don't have feats that he can do it, but I don't see why it's necessary either.

I mean if you want to make the argument that Jiraiya is completely incapable of avoiding eye contact with Itachi, then be my guest, I guess, cause I really have no idea what to even say to something like that, but oh well.

The rest is irrelevant. Bee> Jiraiya, so that doesn't matter, and Bee still got caught. My god.

Being an idiot=/=getting caught in Genjutsu by the best Genjutsu user in NV. So no, they aren't capable of any method that will allow them to avoid Genjutsu. And do note, I haven't even begun to address the crows which can cast Genjutsu (and they have Sharingan, so it's gg Pa/Ma.)

You need feats. Why it's necessary? Maybe because I have 0 reason whatsoever to base their capabilities on your word alone. You need to understand this. If you don't bring me any valid argument and keep bringing me conjecture then I won't reply, because this is getting rather boring basing it off of your word alone and nothing else.

You have nothing to say because you can't counter it, and that's the sad truth (for you, Lol).

 

[EliteKakashi]

Stop this conjecture, my god.
Yes, Genjutsu is Genjutsu. If Ma is trapped in Genjutsu, Jiraiya loses his SM. Itachi then blitzes or kills the obvious Jiraiya with Amateratsu/Tsukiyomi. Or he simply takes advantage of their distraction and lands Tsukiyomi on Pa. Either way, she/he gets caught by something.

And Jiraiya is incapable of dodging Genjutsu cus;

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Pa and Ma are not Jiraiya, they lack feats of Genjutsu evasion, meaning they get caught by the greatest Genjutsu user in the manga. End of story. Bee is given the advice yet he's still caught in Genjutsu. See my point?.............
Gai is an idiot, and they didn't listen because they knew they couldn't. Stop trying to argue this irrefutable manga fact.
And then Finger Genjutsu lands, so that point is moot. Then Itachi bends his knees and makes eye contact. So no, look at his feet or it's gg, to bad they can't.




The rest is irrelevant. Bee> Jiraiya, so that doesn't matter, and Bee still got caught. My god.

Being an idiot=/=getting caught in Genjutsu by the best Genjutsu user in NV. So no, they aren't capable of any method that will allow them to avoid Genjutsu. And do note, I haven't even begun to address the crows which can cast Genjutsu (and they have Sharingan, so it's gg Pa/Ma.)

You need feats. Why it's necessary? Maybe because I have 0 reason whatsoever to base their capabilities on your word alone. Get that through your head. If you don't bring me any valid argument and keep bringing me conjecture then I won't reply, because this is getting rather boring.

You have nothing to say because you can't counter it, and that's the sad truth (for you).

Jiraiya is incapable because he was caught talking to Itachi and Kisame, and this is prior to him having knowledge of Itachi's genjutsu abilities? That's trying to push that scan a bit past what it actually represents, no?

I'm assuming you mean oblivious Jiraiya(if you didn't and simply made a different typo, my apologies), but I'm not sure how he's going to be oblivious to his SM ending. Which does create some issues for Jiraiya, but the biggest asset Fukasaku and Shima give Jiraiya here is Gama Rinsho, and SM is obviously not required for that. So lets assume Shima gets caught(or Fukasaku, whoever), well, SM ends, the toad that's not caught by the genjutsu breaks the other from it while Jiraiya worries about evading/attacking/defending/whatever the case may be.

Bee was caught in the genjutsu prior to being given the advice, which is what prompted Itachi to give the advice:

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And Asuma and Kurenai did listen(and it was actually Asuma that claimed Gai was the only one that could do it, Kurenai simply pointed out that it was a good idea). They opened their eyes as they told Gai those statements. Then Gai tells them to just get used to it, next page is him handing Kakashi to Kurenai and telling Asuma that they'll fight Itachi and Kisame, then Itachi ends the fight.

Again, Bee didn't get caught after being given the advice, that happened before hand.

---

The biggest issue with this argument is this implies the only people capable of fighting Itachi go by the name of Gai,

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, perfect Jins, and the ridiculously OP doujutsu users of the manga(Kaguya, Hagoromo, Nagato, Madara, Sasuke, those types), and just about no one else.

Your argument turns 99% of the Itachi vs threads in to (they can't avoid his eyes, gg). And I think it's common sense that people of extremely high skill levels would be capable of adapting to fighting sharingan users, but you know what? Maybe not. Maybe there's no point in discussing any Itachi vs thread here on out that doesn't involve Gai, possibly Kakashi, or one of the ridiculously overpowered people that I stated above(and I'm sure I left a name or two off).

 

[LuckyMan]

Not sure if srs.. Katon's strength is amplified by more oxygen/Futon. Don't see exactly how Katon will be nullified by a jutsu which has no offensive/defensive power in the first place.

Counter Balancing. Her Futon cloud is stronger so the Katon gets nulled.

No reason for me not to. Sharingan has better insight than the fake Rinnegan. Rinnegan needs light to see, Sharingan does not. Rinnegan cannot distinguish chakra color, Sharingan can. No real argument on your side here. Apart from the fallacious second hand Rinnegan matching up to the real Rinnegan/Sharingan. Either way, point is Sharingan=|= Rinnegan so you either prove how Sharingan is blinded or my point stands.

Your point doesn't stand at all because chakra color has nothing to do with Pain not seeing Naruto. Your making it seem like if Pain would have distinguished the chakra color of those he was fighting he would have not fell victim to Narutos attack. Pain can see chakra but he didn't see any chakra from Naruto at all when he took Animal Path in Gamabuntas mouth so Itachi being able to distinguish the color means jack because he won't be able to see chakra at all to begin with.

 

[Lariatoo]

Stop this conjecture, my god.
Yes, Genjutsu is Genjutsu. If Ma is trapped in Genjutsu, Jiraiya loses his SM. Itachi then blitzes or kills the obvious Jiraiya with Amateratsu/Tsukiyomi. Or he simply takes advantage of their distraction and lands Tsukiyomi on Pa. Either way, she/he gets caught by something.

And Jiraiya is incapable of dodging Genjutsu cus;

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Pa and Ma are not Jiraiya, they lack feats of Genjutsu evasion, meaning they get caught by the greatest Genjutsu user in the manga. End of story. Bee is given the advice yet he's still caught in Genjutsu. See my point?.............
Gai is an idiot, and they didn't listen because they knew they couldn't. Stop trying to argue this irrefutable manga fact.
And then Finger Genjutsu lands, so that point is moot. Then Itachi bends his knees and makes eye contact. So no, look at his feet or it's gg, to bad they can't.




The rest is irrelevant. Bee> Jiraiya, so that doesn't matter, and Bee still got caught. My god.

Being an idiot=/=getting caught in Genjutsu by the best Genjutsu user in NV. So no, they aren't capable of any method that will allow them to avoid Genjutsu. And do note, I haven't even begun to address the crows which can cast Genjutsu (and they have Sharingan, so it's gg Pa/Ma.)

You need feats. Why it's necessary? Maybe because I have 0 reason whatsoever to base their capabilities on your word alone. You need to understand this. If you don't bring me any valid argument and keep bringing me conjecture then I won't reply, because this is getting rather boring basing it off of your word alone and nothing else.

You have nothing to say because you can't counter it, and that's the sad truth (for you, Lol).

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[Bogard]

People trying to use real life logic in a manga? The Kages(except Onoki) never used to fight while avoiding eye contact, but from the moment Onoki told everyone to avoid direct eye contact with Madara, everyone of them managed to fight him perfectly during an entire day despite having multiple dojutsus around(the 20clones or so). Getting used to it isn't as difficult as some really want to claim

 

[EliteKakashi]

People trying to use real life logic in a manga? The Kages(except Onoki) never used to fight while avoiding eye contact, but from the moment Onoki told everyone to avoid direct eye contact with Madara, everyone of them managed to fight him perfectly during an entire day despite having multiple dojutsus around(the 20clones or so). Getting used to it isn't as difficult as some really want to claim

While this hurts my own argument, there's differences there.

1. Madara isn't as good as Itachi at genjutsu.

2. Madara did actually catch one of the kages in a genjutsu, he caught A.

3. Madara wasn't actually trying vs the Gokage.