Serious Question - How good is Hiruzen? Be realistic

[Troyg39]

Well yes. But Sarutobi's are naturally fast learners if you consider that sort of thing.

Kakashi has coppied over 1000 jutsu, so I'm positive he's encountered 1 of each element.

All in all, the point is Hiruzen is good for a normal, non-KKG wielding, non-Jinchuriki shinobi. Is he top 10 in my eyes? Not a chance. Top 15? Maybe. Just maybe. But I still doubt it.

Hiruzen is the big fish in a little pond. He's the king of all fodders, but is still outclassed by many many shinobi.

Yes, the learning curve is typically shorter for his clan, although I hold that a little less against him seeing as Sarutobi Asuma clearly was a few brain cells short of a genius, and likely a lot weaker than old Hiruzen let alone what Hiruzen likely was in his prime. But that all depends on who you are and what you prefer to believe.

As far as Kakashi copying all those jutsu, he likely has encountered all elements, but the abillty to use all elements is still a different ball game. In the same manner that a sharingan user can't copy a KKG, if you aren't able to use an element, you shouldn't be able to copy it. Also the fact that Kakashi, a member of the leaf like Hiruzen, was never noted for knowing all jutsu that existed in his village as well leads me to believe he can't use all elements. If he had the time to copy 1000 jutsu, you'd think he try to learn the jutsu in his own village. Also if he knows every element, then every sharingan-carrying uchiha would've as well.

And lastly as far as Hiruzen's placement, as I said I believe he's a top 10 caliber, preferably bottom of the list, but I think there are a number of top 10 caliber characters as I only consider about 7 or 8 ninja to truly be OP. After that I believe there are a number of strong characters who fall short of being OP, but are a cut above the typical fodder. I think Hiruzen is in this pull, so I'm fine with him not being in yours or anyone else's personal top 10 list for the sake another character in that same pool.

 

[Joker]

That was about KKG and you were right about that i give you that, and its more like Hiruzen defeated Orochimaru and sealed himself along with the other hokages.

Who is SMD?

Im about to get turnt up, wait till I get on my laptop; time to destroy this thread.

 

[The Necromancer]

He learned S rank ninjutsu just by observation, anything Kakazu throws at Hiruzen he'll just use it against him more than likely plus reaper death seal, and enma give Hiurzen the advantage, although he suffers from low chakara reserves at old age..

Do you have a VIZ of Hiruzen copying the 5 jutsu? If he didn't know how to make a giant fireball or a wind blast as a Kage who supposedly knew every jutsu in Konoha, then that's pathetic in and of itself.

I assumed Hiruzen knew those jutsu already. I would enjoy a VIZ of that.

 

[Trollasaur]

Hiruzen sacrificed his life to nerf Orochimaru, Orochimaru was the cause of his death. When some gets HIV, and dies, we don't say they died from HIV, because they died from Aids. Orochimaru is Hiruzen's aids in this scenerio.

Excuses excuses, Orchimaru didn't kill Hiruzen <insert micheal jordan face here>

and Orchimaru himself admited that a 50 year old Hiruzen would wipe the floor with him...

Deal with it.

 

[omarsen]

Im about to get turnt up, wait till I get on my laptop; time to destroy this thread.

fine i'm waiting, cuz you got nothing on Hiruzen, period.

 

[Trollasaur]

Do you have a VIZ of Hiruzen copying the 5 jutsu? If he didn't know how to make a giant fireball or a wind blast as a Kage who supposedly knew every jutsu in Konoha, then that's pathetic in and of itself.

I assumed Hiruzen knew those jutsu already. I would enjoy a VIZ of that.

Well we'll see, I just think Kishimotto wanted to showcase his skill to copy jutsu but whatever.

 

[Avinash012]

Orchimaru clearly didn't kill Hiruzen.

It dosen't matter,Old Saru clearly admitted that he can't beat Orochimaru without EDO's that is.
He might be strongest Hokage during his prime for unknown reasons but the 3rd hokage that we know of would lose against anyone on base Oro's or > Oro's level.

 

[The Necromancer]

Yes, the learning curve is typically shorter for his clan, although I hold that a little less against him seeing as Sarutobi Asuma clearly was a few brain cells short of a genius, and likely a lot weaker than old Hiruzen let alone what Hiruzen likely was in his prime. But that all depends on who you are and what you prefer to believe.

As far as Kakashi copying all those jutsu, he likely has encountered all elements, but the abillty to use all elements is still a different ball game. In the same manner that a sharingan user can't copy a KKG, if you aren't able to use an element, you shouldn't be able to copy it. Also the fact that Kakashi, a member of the leaf like Hiruzen, was never noted for knowing all jutsu that existed in his village as well leads me to believe he can't use all elements. If he had the time to copy 1000 jutsu, you'd think he try to learn the jutsu in his own village. Also if he knows every element, then every sharingan-carrying uchiha would've as well.

And lastly as far as Hiruzen's placement, as I said I believe he's a top 10 caliber, preferably bottom of the list, but I think there are a number of top 10 caliber characters as I only consider about 7 or 8 ninja to truly be OP. After that I believe there are a number of strong characters who fall short of being OP, but are a cut above the typical fodder. I think Hiruzen is in this pull, so I'm fine with him not being in yours or anyone else's personal top 10 list for the sake another character in that same pool.

I was leaning more towards the assumption that when one copies 1000 jutsu, they don't copy 500 different lightning techs and 500 different fire techs. (yes there are exceptions, but my point is valid, I believe)

Just my rationale.

I just assumed Kakashi didn't know 1000 different variations on his Doton wall.

Well we'll see, I just think Kishimotto wanted to showcase his skill to copy jutsu but whatever.

So you don't believe Hiruzen knew basic large scale elemental techs already?

 

[foxyladyland]

Honestly . Hiruzen is only good if you let him be good. Example: Orochimaru & Enma both begged him to fight back. He was losing. He later died . *_* maybe im just clowning around. lololololol

 

[Aya San]

It's not impossible

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And how do you know the ranks?

Who said using all 5 elements was impossible?

 

[Trollasaur]

I was leaning more towards the assumption that when one copies 1000 jutsu, they don't copy 500 different lightning techs and 500 different fire techs. (yes there are exceptions, but my point is valid, I believe)

Just my rationale.

I just assumed Kakashi didn't know 1000 different variations on his Doton wall.



So you don't believe Hiruzen knew basic large scale elemental techs already?

I think he knew large scale techs it's possible.

Madara's large scale fireball is a Kohana jutsu, and he (Hiurzen) showcased to be able to do firestyle of simillar size. He (Hiruzen) knew every jutsu in Kohana. But then again that's just hype.

 

[Troyg39]

I was leaning more towards the assumption that when one copies 1000 jutsu, they don't copy 500 different lightning techs and 500 different fire techs. (yes there are exceptions, but my point is valid, I believe)

Just my rationale.

I just assumed Kakashi didn't know 1000 different variations on his Doton wall.

Well if you consider that 1000 isn't a lot compared to the fact that there are said to be at least 10s of thousands of different jutsu variations, it's possible he's only been able to master combinations from the 3 elements he knows for sure. So far we know he knows lightning, water and earth. Even if he mastered 1000 jutsu from each element, that's only 3000.

So that's why I leaned more towards him not knowing all elements, plus I feel he would've said so here

Spoiler

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But it could go either way as he may know fire and wind as well

 

[Joker]

fine i'm waiting, cuz you got nothing on Hiruzen, period.

I already schooled you once, get Hiruzen D out of your mouth. Orochimaru allowed Hiruzen to use RDS

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. Now please get out of my face with your rubbish, just because Hiruzen got a couple new feats doesn't change the fact Orochimaru still soloed. Stay irate.

 

[Mellanoma]

He is easily top 10 and with new feats top 5 is debatable. Having all 5 chakra nature types is a HUGE advantage and the fact that he can simultaenously use them with 5 different clones? He can attack an enemy with 2 or more Nature weaknesses from atleast 5 different angles at the same time. On top of that he has enma for defense and attack.

 

[omarsen]

I already schooled you once, get Hiruzen D out of your mouth. Orochimaru allowed Hiruzen to use RDS

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. Now please get out of my face with your rubbish, just because Hiruzen got a couple new feats doesn't change the fact Orochimaru still soloed. Stay irate.

I see your mama didn't allow you to use your computer, you only corrected me on the KGG, now you acting all migthy and sht? nontheless got one thing for you.

Spoiler

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When Orochimaru posses only one of these feats, come back and discuss how orochimaru > Lawd Hiruzen

Edit: by your logic Sharingan sasuke > Ms Itachi, because he killed him.

 

[HadouKage]

What I want to know is where in the manga did the say the jutsu used by Buddah was S ranked

 

[Souji]

Hiruzen is a mid/high Kage level. He may not have the specialties of his other Hokage and Kage contemporaries, but with Enma and his current feats, he outclasses them in other aspects.

People equate strength with scale of jutsu, rather than actual versatility. If Hiruzen does indeed know 1000s of techniques (which is true based on manga statements), then it's entirely possible he will be able to stand with the strongest of them all. But of course, people will always find ways to downplay and underrate him in any way possible. How pathetic, in all honesty.

One thing for sure, he's above Kakshi's level... with Kamui, Kakashi is at Hiruzen's level.

 

[HadouKage]

Hiruzen is a mid/high Kage level. He may not have the specialties of his other Hokage and Kage contemporaries, but with Enma and his current feats, he outclasses them in other aspects.

People equate strength with scale of jutsu, rather than actual versatility. If Hiruzen does indeed know 1000s of techniques (which is true based on manga statements), then it's entire possible he will be able to stand with the strongest of them all. But of course, people will always find ways to downplay and underrate him in any way possible. How pathetic, in all honesty.

One thing for sure, he's above Kakshi's level... with Kamui, Kakashi is at Hiruzen's level.

Too bad, Kakashi has Kamui, huh?

 

[Joker]

I see your mama didn't allow you to use your computer, you only corrected me on the KGG, now you acting all migthy and sht? nontheless got one thing for you.

Spoiler

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When Orochimaru posses only one of these feats, come back and discuss how orochimaru > Lawd Hiruzen

LMFAO, your first scan, how about we take a look at the whole page?

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Orochimaru was saying if Hiruzen was ten years younger he would've been able to completely rip out his soul. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Trollasaur]

Hiruzen is a mid/high Kage level. He may not have the specialties of his other Hokage and Kage contemporaries, but with Enma and his current feats, he outclasses them in other aspects.

People equate strength with scale of jutsu, rather than actual versatility. If Hiruzen does indeed know 1000s of techniques (which is true based on manga statements), then it's entire possible he will be able to stand with the strongest of them all. But of course, people will always find ways to downplay and underrate him in any way possible. How pathetic, in all honesty.

One thing for sure, he's above Kakshi's level... with Kamui, Kakashi is at Hiruzen's level.

His unique specialty is his understanding of Jutsu.

Being able to copy high ranking bijju sized ninjutsu, and using all chakara natures.