[Theory] Sasuke do not possess Tsukuyomi....

[Draxus]

In manga where everyone almost always says the name of their attack, especially the first time they use it. I am of the mind that I'll believe Sasuke has it when HE says he does.

i have many reasons to believe sasuke have tsukyomi and reasons are very simple and hard to ignore: even if sasuke didn't activate his own tsukyomi when he obtained amaterasu/Mangekyo he would have it when he transplanted itachi's eyes simply because itachi had tsukyomi that is just how ems and eye implanting works. u obtain ocular powers of eyes

Actually in the manga it states when a MS user replaces his eyes with another MS it creates a new doujutsu. It's not the same as Nagato, Kakashi, or Ao. Following your logic, Sasuke would have lost his original MS abilities.

 

[-ahhimane-]

1: Not to flame or anything, but seriously, use does and do correctly (he does, we do, etc..).

2: For the actual importance of the thread, you do provide good arguments, and nothing you say is incorrect, however, you left out the most important occasion, that proves that Sasuke is capable of using Tsukuyomi. And here I am of course referring to his battle with Killer Bee.

What is different in Kishis drawings of Tsukuyomi compared to other Genjutsu? The background is pitch black. This we have seen in every instant, where Tsukuyomi has been used, you even brought some of them with you as well.

In Sasukes battle with Bee, Sasuke used a genjutsu on him, there was eye contact, it was with MS, the background was pitch black, Sasuke felt pain in the eye afterwards. The evidence is simply too overwhelming, and thus rest of your "evidence" in this thread is pointless.

It's all in chapter 413 btw, easier to just look through it, than posting scans here.

Well Itachi did gave an explanation to Kakashi about capable people of breaking through Tsukuyomi. That is the people who're of same blood. How can you neglect this?
And how come Killer Bee so easily break through Sasuke's Tsukuyomi? Hachibi's role doesn't come into consideration because he can't say whether Bee was in Tsukuyomi for one second.
Also Danzo break through Tsukuyomi easily. That's what people say who believe Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi. Sasuke was strong enough to maintain the Genjutsu then why couldn't he maintained the Tsukuyomi?

 

[Rikudou Sennin balls]

Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. It was said by Obito himself. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi isn't as powerful as Itachi's. Everyone's Mangekyou Sharingan is different. Look at Itachi, he was a genjutsu master and could use it without sharingan his Tsukuyomi is his most used attack. Now look at Madara, he mostly uses Susanoo so his Susanoo is that powerful. Sasuke uses Amaterasu it's his most powerful attack to the point he has blaze release.

Madara has Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and we should assume he has Amaterasu
Itachi has Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu
Sasuke has Susanoo, Amaterasu and those who has these two awakens the third power Amaterasu.

As to why Madara doesn't use Amaterasu is simple it's a useless Justu by itself. It's easy to predict because of the build up of chakra and the bleeding eye. It's the same reason why Itachi only used it once on a fight because he knew Sasuke could out maneuver it.

 

[-ahhimane-]

well A for affort but making peace of argument long doesnt make it right. couple things: itachi vs sasuke it seems mangekyo doesnt need to be activated while tsukyomi, itachi did use tsukyomi from get to go, to ensure he maintain controll and can show sasuke very detailed stuff and go anywhere he need/want with genjutsu

i have many reasons to believe sasuke have tsukyomi and reasons are very simple and hard to ignore: even if sasuke didn't activate his own tsukyomi when he obtained amaterasu/Mangekyo he would have it when he transplanted itachi's eyes simply because itachi had tsukyomi that is just how ems and eye implanting works. u obtain ocular powers of eyes

If Itachi used it from the start then he would have gone blind in the middle of the battle. LOL
Also Zetsu shouldn't be there explaining in the middle of Tsukuyomi
If he has Itachi's eyes and his Tsukuyomi as well then can you explain why he's not using against Obito now? And why he's still spamming Amaterasu and Enton like weapon? Obito cannot be immune to Genjutsu because Juubi will not try to release him from Genjutsu. Obito is still a human so he has to be caught under Tsukuyomi. But your Sasuke is not spamming Tsukuyomi. WHy not?

 

[naruttebayo]

why danzo would say yours (sasuke's tsukuyomi) is nothing compared to itachi's tsukuyomi. not to mention the black background when he used on killer bee and the pain he felt shows that he used tskuyomi.

oh god ..... phew ....

he said your genjutsu is nothing compared to itachi's tsukyomi
in which he could manipulate time at will....

clearly it was not tsukyomi

 

[-ahhimane-]

Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. It was said by Obito himself. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi isn't as powerful as Itachi's. Everyone's Mangekyou Sharingan is different. Look at Itachi, he was a genjutsu master and could use it without sharingan his Tsukuyomi is his most used attack. Now look at Madara, he mostly uses Susanoo so his Susanoo is that powerful. Sasuke uses Amaterasu it's his most powerful attack to the point he has blaze release.

Madara has Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and we should assume he has Amaterasu
Itachi has Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu
Sasuke has Susanoo, Amaterasu and those who has these two awakens the third power Amaterasu.

As to why Madara doesn't use Amaterasu is simple it's a useless Justu by itself. It's easy to predict because of the build up of chakra and the bleeding eye. It's the same reason why Itachi only used it once on a fight because he knew Sasuke could out maneuver it.

Read it carefully here :

Spoiler

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Obito said himself that it's a weak Genjutsu which Sasuke held long enough. Sasuke kept his eye open to keep the Genjutsu active. But Itachi can do whatever he wants. Itachi's MS Genjutsu was Tsukuyomi.

 

[jorgelius]

If Itachi used it from the start then he would have gone blind in the middle of the battle. LOL
Also Zetsu shouldn't be there explaining in the middle of Tsukuyomi
If he has Itachi's eyes and his Tsukuyomi as well then can you explain why he's not using against Obito now? And why he's still spamming Amaterasu and Enton like weapon? Obito cannot be immune to Genjutsu because Juubi will not try to release him from Genjutsu. Obito is still a human so he has to be caught under Tsukuyomi. But your Sasuke is not spamming Tsukuyomi. WHy not?

itachi planned to die yet win orochimaru he had to deplete his chakra to absolute zero he was near blind but didnt die coz of blindness he died chakra exhaustion + _sickness_ and uchiha can spam mangekyo in cost of light trohought match itachi was not kind of guy who does that.. and main reason your argument doesnt fly is: itachi said during retrival of kazekage arc to naruto he cant use mangekyo sharingan while he use some of his genjutsu he cant swap to tsukyomi while other genjutsu
itachi said one cannot cast genjutsu to someone with same eyes.. and sasuke is more tamer than itachi like KO-genjutsu guy.. he can stop kage level shinobi with genjutsu alone such as A or hiruzen likes of hashirama have too big chakra reserves for adept gen user even with strongest techniques..
to Draxus
yeah good point.. but i meant he have both techniques itachi's and sasuke's i believe they were same from start..

 

[-ahhimane-]

itachi said one cannot cast genjutsu to someone with same eyes.. and sasuke is more tamer than itachi like KO-genjutsu guy.. he can stop kage level shinobi with genjutsu alone such as A or hiruzen likes of hashirama have too big chakra reserves for adept gen user even with strongest techniques..

So why he failed against Killer Bee and Danzo?

 

[jorgelius]

So why he failed against Killer Bee and Danzo?

killer bee is jinchuuriki if bijuu disturb your chakra flow any genjutsu fail. and danzo used even stronger genjutsu

 

[thegame]

Well Itachi did gave an explanation to Kakashi about capable people of breaking through Tsukuyomi. That is the people who're of same blood. How can you neglect this?
And how come Killer Bee so easily break through Sasuke's Tsukuyomi? Hachibi's role doesn't come into consideration because he can't say whether Bee was in Tsukuyomi for one second.
Also Danzo break through Tsukuyomi easily. That's what people say who believe Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi. Sasuke was strong enough to maintain the Genjutsu then why couldn't he maintained the Tsukuyomi?

About Danzou, I never commented on that. I agree with you, there was no usage of tsukuyomi against Danzou.

But against Bee, there is just too overwhelming evidence, unless Kishi explains it otherwise. Your arguments are again valid, however, do we know for sure, how a genjutsu affects a jinchuriki?
As I see it, the jinchuriki shares every feelings and mind with the bijuu. In other words the Bijuu feel the same things as the host, how else would it know, if he is caught in a genjutsu? So when Bee is caught in Tsukuyomi so is the Hachibi, and he can cancel it instantly, because they share the same senses and orientation of time.

The reason you cannot escape Tsukuyomi on your own, is that you are incapable of moving. But the Bijuu just needs to disturb the flow of chakra, and the jutsu will end. At least that is my analysis. And when you are facing an Uchiha, the Bijuu would stay prepared for anything. It could also just simply be, that it feels a change in the chakra flow to the brain, and instantly stops it.

 

[-ahhimane-]

About Danzou, I never commented on that. I agree with you, there was no usage of tsukuyomi against Danzou.

But against Bee, there is just too overwhelming evidence, unless Kishi explains it otherwise. Your arguments are again valid, however, do we know for sure, how a genjutsu affects a jinchuriki?
As I see it, the jinchuriki shares every feelings and mind with the bijuu. In other words the Bijuu feel the same things as the host, how else would it know, if he is caught in a genjutsu? So when Bee is caught in Tsukuyomi so is the Hachibi, and he can cancel it instantly, because they share the same senses and orientation of time.

The reason you cannot escape Tsukuyomi on your own, is that you are incapable of moving. But the Bijuu just needs to disturb the flow of chakra, and the jutsu will end. At least that is my analysis. And when you are facing an Uchiha, the Bijuu would stay prepared for anything. It could also just simply be, that it feels a change in the chakra flow to the brain, and instantly stops it.

Whatever you said in the second paragraph is applicable in case of a normal Genjutsu because I don't think that is applicable to Tsukuyomi as per Itachi's explanation here :

Spoiler

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killer bee is jinchuuriki if bijuu disturb your chakra flow any genjutsu fail. and danzo used even stronger genjutsu

That's the case for a Genjutsu'd Jinchuuriki
But Itachi says something else here :

Spoiler

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And Danzo never used a Genjutsu

 

[Draxus]

Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. It was said by Obito himself. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi isn't as powerful as Itachi's. Everyone's Mangekyou Sharingan is different. Look at Itachi, he was a genjutsu master and could use it without sharingan his Tsukuyomi is his most used attack. Now look at Madara, he mostly uses Susanoo so his Susanoo is that powerful. Sasuke uses Amaterasu it's his most powerful attack to the point he has blaze release.

Madara has Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and we should assume he has Amaterasu
Itachi has Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu
Sasuke has Susanoo, Amaterasu and those who has these two awakens the third power Amaterasu.

As to why Madara doesn't use Amaterasu is simple it's a useless Justu by itself. It's easy to predict because of the build up of chakra and the bleeding eye. It's the same reason why Itachi only used it once on a fight because he knew Sasuke could out maneuver it.

Madara never used Tsukyomi. Just like Sasuke on Edo Itachi, he used "Sharingan Genjutsu" on Ay. If you're referring to the Moons Eye Plan, then your evidence is still flimsy as Obito plans to carry it out and he clearly doesn't have Tsukyomi either.

I still have yet to get a descent explanation as to why Tsukyomi is the only ability Sasuke has never spoke out loud when, or just after, he used it. Why would Kishi make it so ambiguous?

 

[jorgelius]

That's the case for a Genjutsu'd Jinchuuriki
But Itachi says something else here :

Spoiler

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And Danzo never used a Genjutsu

they did next chat at early shippuuden kakashi know even with group tsukyomi is tricky to beat since when itachi use tsukyomi to fullest only moment means days in his phantom world but rule is only someone else can stop it, genjutsu works on everyone even jinchuurikis killer b is rare case, not point mention only guy in naruverse who have partner who can break it instantly. time is relative to b since jinchuuriki is inside him.

and danzo used izanagi sharingan tech which grants user complete controll of own body and mind without this realizing im under genjutsu do him little good.. sharingans saw through sasuke's tsukyomi and turned it dream or something..

 

[Mr Hiru]

The theory seems solid, still it goes against the trinity of Shintoism talking about the three sons Izanagi had, this is, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano'o.

I think in terms of counting number of powers, you're right... and even complements the answer to "why Obito hasn't used Susano'o", being the answer "Kamui has two variations, and one of these resides in Kakashi's Sharingan".

That, or maybe Sasuke wasn't supposed to awake the Susano'o, and this power was lend by Itachi too.

 

[-ahhimane-]

The theory seems solid, still it goes against the trinity of Shintoism talking about the three sons Izanagi had, this is, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano'o.

I think in terms of counting number of powers, you're right... and even complements the answer to "why Obito hasn't used Susano'o", being the answer "Kamui has two variations, and one of these resides in Kakashi's Sharingan".

That, or maybe Sasuke wasn't supposed to awake the Susano'o, and this power was lend by Itachi too.[/QUOTE]
Even if Kishi got the names from the myths of Japan, he can't provide those three powers to every Uchiha. He must have thought of it for Itachi only since he was the villain in part 1 series. Then he might have thought variations of powers to other Uchiha characters. Same power ups would be lame. He might have took the names but the relation won't be the same from the myths

 

[sharinganunited]

you Sir truly Love Fanboyism :|

Let me show this

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naruto Does use Rasengan Right? but i dont here him Say RasenGAN!

thats some stupid Logic..Sasuke Clearly used it at the Hachibi Fight..and Danzo..but Wasn't that strong..Know your Logic before!
picking up yo shit

 

[jorgelius]

i think madara and sasuke are shamed to call tsukyomi by its name after standars itachi set, shisui probably set even higher standars to what sharingan can really do..
i think mangekyo itself its enough to tame kyuubi ems just srongers tsukyomi and can spam it.

i only thiink madara might have tsukyomi coz stuff hirudora told tsukyomi - moon amaterasu - sun and third power...

every mangekyo should be unique same techniques can only be explained by family ties

 

[thegame]

Whatever you said in the second paragraph is applicable in case of a normal Genjutsu because I don't think that is applicable to Tsukuyomi as per Itachi's explanation here :

Spoiler

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Well, Itachi also said that any jutsu has a weakness. No matter, what he says, Tsukuyomi is still a genjutsu, and thus it can be beaten by disturbing the flow of chakra to the brain. A perfect Jinchuriki is pretty rare, besides he wouldn't even know this, because he hasn't used it on a perfect jinchuriki.

 

[avenged sevenfold]

He used it on danzo. Even danzo said that sasukes "tsukuyomi" paled in comparison compared to itachis. Would that be proof enough that sasuke has tsukuyomi. Plus sasuke used a genjutsu on killer bee and his eye started bleeding which shows that he used an ms technique. The only logical explanation would be that he used tsukuyomi

 

[Smd]

So Sasuke didn't use Tsukuyomi on Killer Bee?
Okay.

ikr the op conviently left that part out

and butcher what danzo said.

the problem with people claiming this,

explain how madara has susanno.

When he hasnt showned 2MS techs.


Sasuke has tsukyomi, its just not as good as itachi.

you cant compare itachi's tsukyomi to anyone in the manga, because he was known for being way above normal.