Proof that Second Tsuchikage > Fourth Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[Negative Knight]

Surely in terms of jutsu, ability, chakra nature and control second tsuchikage (kekkei touta shinobi) beats fourth hokage by a large margin, but don't forget in an actual battle (in close combat or mid range) minato gets the upper hand due to s/t techniques, minato would spam ftg combined with rasengan and muu would not be able to think from where it's coming (as he cannot compete with even a fraction of minato's speed), but in long-range combat due to camouflaging mastery there would be a window for second tsuchikage to use his powerful techniques if his timing is correct.
To sum up, even if Second Tsuchikage>Fourth Hokage, in many aspects, there is a fair chance that Hokage would win (as it was in the case of Fourth Raikage v/s Fourth Hokage).
Anybody agreeing with me??

Minato does have a equal chance of winning against Muu

As for Minato having wind that you, Asad and Yellowflash said

1) Muu's Fire would overpower Minato's wind so easily

2) Earth would just block the hits from wind as its too hard for wind blasts


Also Fire > Wind

Wind > Lightning (Muu doesn't possess any lightning techs so it's pointless for minato to use elements to gain an advantage)

Also in the case Minato has Lightning Muu has 3 elements (Fire, Earth and Wind)

With his three elements he has advantage over the 5 element and pseudo elements (iron sand and etc) except fire which eh could indeed overpower with his fire infused with wind.


When it comes down to the battle of elements Muu wins, no contest

Minato would mainly rely on FTG which Muu could pressure him with Large Scale earth techniques which make the land uneven.

In the end over all my counters for Minato...

Muu > Minato

Experience is priceless.

A lifetime as a warrior creates an unstoppable machine of death. No young man can counter, Minato is intelligent, and would run to fight another day. He wouldnt attempt Muu alone.

there are countless examples of a younger more powerful warrior getting crushed by experience.


If he had to, he would die. but the will of fire would live on.

Thank you for considering it from a real life perspective as people who think Minato would win easy diff think he is invincible from anything

 

[Y3llovv fla5h]

I don't think he would win easily I'm just giving u counters to the counters u provide and different scenarios why I think minato would win.....I never said it would be an easy fight Lol

 

[satori]

this sure grew. Anyway I still believe Minato would win based on the feats each one has accomplished as well. I think logically Minato would win but no one wins by logic in the Narutoverse so............

 

[Cronos]

hmm... this is a tough one, by hype Minato is clearly the stronger one but by facts we can't really be that sure anymore.

Firstly:

Minato can probably warp himself to places he can't see since he was able to warp himself to Kushina when she was very far away. So the theory about that he would have a problem in uneven fighting isn't really bullet proof.


Secondly:

Battle experience... they are quite even there, since even if Muu has more experience the world has known about his abilities a long time when Minato was alive. and i've seen people saying that Muu wasn't that old and that why the tsuchikages only have three was because they were formed a long time after Konoha. Well Madara did fight Muu and The old geeser in the name of konoha so they were not that young^^


Thirdly:

All Minato has to do is to mark the tsuchikage and the battle is pretty much over, but only doesn't mean that it is easy. True Muu can fly but Minato can warp allot, even in midair so if he doesn't get close one time then he only need to do it several times. This doesn't mean that it is an easy battle with getting close for Minato.


Fourth:

The sensing part. I agree that Muu is a better Sensor than Minato, even if Minato only need to touch the ground to understand how many and where they are, Muu is clearly better with being able to while walking and running always knowing where the enemy is and so on..


Fifth:

The dust release. as long as Minato is aware if hes being attacked he will be able to dodge the attack, that's his foremost ability. But i think it will be a battle for who uses up his chakra rather than overpowering the other one.
It is pretty much the same with Itachi, we dont know who will win since they are kinda the same.

Conclusion:

After all of this is almost even but my vote goes for Minato since he will be able to outlast his enemy by hype, and being able warp several high chakra attacks like TBB. so this is a fight for who has the most stamina you could say. IT's either that or MInato wins high-Very high Dif

 

[Negative Knight]

I don't think he would win easily I'm just giving u counters to the counters u provide and different scenarios why I think minato would win.....I never said it would be an easy fight Lol

Lol i didn't mean you, i mean people early on in the thread who didn't give reasons, your giving your reasons why Minato would which is one of the sides of the argument

 

[Jhe28]

using dust release takes about 2 to 3 seconds and thats enough time for someone who can throw a kunai really fast ( as shown in the movie 4th hokage can spam kunais really fast)
and FTG to that kunai with Rasengan..

 

[olumiday]

Nice vs thread and comprehensive explanation too.

You talked about Muu using a lot of long range fire and wind techniques to overwhelm Minato from above, but we haven't seen Muu use such in battle so we don't know how good he is at using those techniques. In fact even Oonoki hasn't used any pure fire or wind techniques yet he possesses those elements too. And if you notice the fights in Naruto, people don't use long range fire or wind jutsus continuously during a battle due to
1. chakra drain.
2. If it didn't work the 1st time, it's less likely to work subsequently.

Minato can simply do his favourite - scatter his kunais around the ground. Forcing Muu to keep off the ground and stay in the air throughout, and fueling his flight by chakra. How long will he stay up there before "the plane crashes"? ;-)

Supposing Muu could use powerful forms of techniques such as fire or wind directly at Minato it would be virtually useless due to his FTG.
And we could also assume that Minato can use elemental jutsus as well, then it would come down to who can use those jutsus better.

Do you know that an inferior element can win against it's superior?
Tobirama's water jutsu overwhelmed Hiruzen's earth jutsu, Temari's wind fan neutralised Sasuke's fire in the forest when he went after Gaara.

Also, Engaging Minato in Taijutsu is equal to attempted suicide due to the risk of being marked by his seal.

Muu staying invisible won't do him much good as he would have to become visible to attack effectively.

If it's so easy to reappear and go for the kill after he splits in half, then at least one of the 5 kages should be dead by now due to edo Muu's other half coming out of nowhere and one-shoting one of them.
Or he could have killed Madara way back then, by fighting him, getting 50% killed and suddenly reappearing to finish Madara.
I believe the spliting technique is more of a survival technique than attack.

The only way Muu can win this is IF these two conditions are BOTH fulfilled:

1. Minato thinks Muu is dead, hence lets his guard down just like Jiraiya did against Pein.

2. 50% Muu is able to appear at an advantageous position and go for the KILL (one chance only, cos if Minato manages to evade that, it's bed (grave) time for 50% Muu.

Overall, I say Minato wins this.

 

[Y3llovv fla5h]

Lol i didn't mean you, i mean people early on in the thread who didn't give reasons, your giving your reasons why Minato would which is one of the sides of the argument

Oh haha arite thx!!!

 

[Jhe28]

This.

this

 

[Y3llovv fla5h]

Nice vs thread and comprehensive explanation too.

You talked about Muu using a lot of long range fire and wind techniques to overwhelm Minato from above, but we haven't seen Muu use such in battle so we don't know how good he is at using those techniques. In fact even Oonoki hasn't used any pure fire or wind techniques yet he possesses those elements too. And if you notice the fights in Naruto, people don't use long range fire or wind jutsus continuously during a battle due to
1. chakra drain.
2. If it didn't work the 1st time, it's less likely to work subsequently.

Minato can simply do his favourite - scatter his kunais around the ground. Forcing Muu to keep off the ground and stay in the air throughout, and fueling his flight by chakra. How long will he stay up there before "the plane crashes"? ;-)

Supposing Muu could use powerful forms of techniques such as fire or wind directly at Minato it would be virtually useless due to his FTG.
And we could also assume that Minato can use elemental jutsus as well, then it would come down to who can use those jutsus better.

Do you know that an inferior element can win against it's superior?
Tobirama's water jutsu overwhelmed Hiruzen's earth jutsu, Temari's wind fan neutralised Sasuke's fire in the forest when he went after Gaara.

Also, Engaging Minato in Taijutsu is equal to attempted suicide due to the risk of being marked by his seal.

Muu staying invisible won't do him much good as he would have to become visible to attack effectively.

If it's so easy to reappear and go for the kill after he splits in half, then at least one of the 5 kages should be dead by now due to edo Muu's other half coming out of nowhere and one-shoting one of them.
Or he could have killed Madara way back then, by fighting him, getting 50% killed and suddenly reappearing to finish Madara.
I believe the spliting technique is more of a survival technique than attack.

The only way Muu can win this is IF these two conditions are BOTH fulfilled:

1. Minato thinks Muu is dead, hence lets his guard down just like Jiraiya did against Pein.

2. 50% Muu is able to appear at an advantageous position and go for the KILL (one chance only, cos if Minato manages to evade that, it's bed (grave) time for 50% Muu.

Overall, I say Minato wins this.

I like the way you put this together! Well thought out!!!

 

[Negative Knight]

Nice vs thread and comprehensive explanation too.

You talked about Muu using a lot of long range fire and wind techniques to overwhelm Minato from above, but we haven't seen Muu use such in battle so we don't know how good he is at using those techniques. In fact even Oonoki hasn't used any pure fire or wind techniques yet he possesses those elements too. And if you notice the fights in Naruto, people don't use long range fire or wind jutsus continuously during a battle due to
1. chakra drain.
2. If it didn't work the 1st time, it's less likely to work subsequently.

Minato can simply do his favourite - scatter his kunais around the ground. Forcing Muu to keep off the ground and stay in the air throughout, and fueling his flight by chakra. How long will he stay up there before "the plane crashes"? ;-)

Supposing Muu could use powerful forms of techniques such as fire or wind directly at Minato it would be virtually useless due to his FTG.
And we could also assume that Minato can use elemental jutsus as well, then it would come down to who can use those jutsus better.

Do you know that an inferior element can win against it's superior?
Tobirama's water jutsu overwhelmed Hiruzen's earth jutsu, Temari's wind fan neutralised Sasuke's fire in the forest when he went after Gaara.

Also, Engaging Minato in Taijutsu is equal to attempted suicide due to the risk of being marked by his seal.

Muu staying invisible won't do him much good as he would have to become visible to attack effectively.

If it's so easy to reappear and go for the kill after he splits in half, then at least one of the 5 kages should be dead by now due to edo Muu's other half coming out of nowhere and one-shoting one of them.
Or he could have killed Madara way back then, by fighting him, getting 50% killed and suddenly reappearing to finish Madara.
I believe the spliting technique is more of a survival technique than attack.

The only way Muu can win this is IF these two conditions are BOTH fulfilled:

1. Minato thinks Muu is dead, hence lets his guard down just like Jiraiya did against Pein.

2. 50% Muu is able to appear at an advantageous position and go for the KILL (one chance only, cos if Minato manages to evade that, it's bed (grave) time for 50% Muu.

Overall, I say Minato wins this.

Very Nice and +Rep

But Minato has a limited supply of FTG Kunai, how many would he use to cover the entire Terrain?

True, using element volleys would probably be a waste of chakra but Muu could simply use his Wind Element in weak bursts for defensive purposes of redirecting Minato's wind techniques.

Combining this with a prepared Large scale earth technique which distorts the land by bringing out earth spikes at different levels (which is fully in Muu's capcity) along the entire terrain could make redirected FTG's devastating on Minato. This would also put insane pressure on his FTG with him getting quickly exhausted and one slip up could be fatal because of the nature of the distorted terrain.

After the Earth technique is completely set up he could use weak low chakra consuming Wind blasts to redirect Minato's Kunai who has no choice but to teleport the new location as maintaining flight is the only way keeping off the hazardous terrain below. The redirected FTG Kunai could be sent into the terrain.

Whilst this is happening Minato will undoubtedly teleport out of his Kunai early to give himself enough time to throw another, Muu can intercept Minato's path with a Katon (Fire) attack or even a pre-prepared Jinton to one shot Minato.

 

[Y3llovv fla5h]

Very Nice and +Rep

But Minato has a limited supply of FTG Kunai, how many would he use to cover the entire Terrain?

True, using element volleys would probably be a waste of chakra but Muu could simply use his Wind Element in weak bursts for defensive purposes of redirecting Minato's wind techniques.

Combining this with a prepared Large scale earth technique which distorts the land by bringing out earth spikes at different levels (which is fully in Muu's capcity) along the entire terrain could make redirected FTG's devastating on Minato. This would also put insane pressure on his FTG with him getting quickly exhausted and one slip up could be fatal because of the nature of the distorted terrain.

After the Earth technique is completely set up he could use weak low chakra consuming Wind blasts to redirect Minato's Kunai who has no choice but to teleport the new location as maintaining flight is the only way keeping off the hazardous terrain below. The redirected FTG Kunai could be sent into the terrain.

Whilst this is happening Minato will undoubtedly teleport out of his Kunai early to give himself enough time to throw another, Muu can intercept Minato's path with a Katon (Fire) attack or even a pre-prepared Jinton to one shot Minato.

He would just FTG home for some ramen Lol!!!

 

[asad70ful]

Very Nice and +Rep

But Minato has a limited supply of FTG Kunai, how many would he use to cover the entire Terrain?

True, using element volleys would probably be a waste of chakra but Muu could simply use his Wind Element in weak bursts for defensive purposes of redirecting Minato's wind techniques.

Combining this with a prepared Large scale earth technique which distorts the land by bringing out earth spikes at different levels (which is fully in Muu's capcity) along the entire terrain could make redirected FTG's devastating on Minato. This would also put insane pressure on his FTG with him getting quickly exhausted and one slip up could be fatal because of the nature of the distorted terrain.

After the Earth technique is completely set up he could use weak low chakra consuming Wind blasts to redirect Minato's Kunai who has no choice but to teleport the new location as maintaining flight is the only way keeping off the hazardous terrain below. The redirected FTG Kunai could be sent into the terrain.

Whilst this is happening Minato will undoubtedly teleport out of his Kunai early to give himself enough time to throw another, Muu can intercept Minato's path with a Katon (Fire) attack or even a pre-prepared Jinton to one shot Minato.

you say that minato has limited ftg kunai's? r u stupid?
he can teleport home(as we saw he has a ftg kunai at his home)
or to a shop,and takes kunai as much as he can
man we know,that onoki also have jinton,but we have not seen him using fire and wind techs,specially long range,which u r claiming constantly
so i think u can cancel the thing that muu can use fire and wind techs,means he can only use earth and dust

 

[Negative Knight]

you say that minato has limited ftg kunai's? r u stupid?
he can teleport home(as we saw he has a ftg kunai at his home)
or to a shop,and takes kunai as much as he can
man we know,that onoki also have jinton,but we have not seen him using fire and wind techs,specially long range,which u r claiming constantly
so i think u can cancel the thing that muu can use fire and wind techs,means he can only use earth and dust

Limited Kunai set on him, not in terms of him travelling home to get them

Yeah he does have fire and wind techs as for a Kekkei Touta you need those 3 elements as a natural affinities

 

[asad70ful]

Limited Kunai set on him, not in terms of him travelling home to get them

Yeah he does have fire and wind techs as for a Kekkei Touta you need those 3 elements as a natural affinities

ok,but minato is not that stupid,to throw all kunai's at once,he would use them when he needs
and as for ur kekkei touta?onoki has kekkei touta,did onoki used fire or wind techs in whole war?if yes then give me link of that manga page
or muu using fire or wind techs
then i will consider them using it

 

[Dr Dark Knight]

another douche thread...

 

[Negative Knight]

ok,but minato is not that stupid,to throw all kunai's at once,he would use them when he needs
and as for ur kekkei touta?onoki has kekkei touta,did onoki used fire or wind techs in whole war?if yes then give me link of that manga page
or muu using fire or wind techs
then i will consider them using it

Have we seen Minato using Wind Techs at any time?

That's a argument that goes against both you and me

 

[olumiday]

Having elemental affinity is one thing, being able to use the long range version is another.
The 3rd and 4th raikages had lightning elements yet they rely on taijutsu style combat. Have you ever seen Orochimaru using elemental techniques before? I haven't, yet he should have some affinity too.

Take for example: The only long range wind technique that we've seen Naruto used is throwing his rasenshuriken. So we can't analyse Naruto (example) vs Minato by saying, what if Naruto used wind techniques to divert the ftg kunais, when we know he can't perform such techniques.

Another example: Hashirama (water + earth = wood) yet I've heard people say Tobirama is the best water user (and I believe too). It means even Hashirama can't use water on the same level with Tobirama yet when it comes to wood, it's a different story.
Hashirama mastered wood but he wasn't the best in water or earth, while Tobirama mastered water.

Since the title of the thread states "proof", we shouldn't rely on unknown techniques of Muu. Afterall, turning the entire battle terrain into earth spikes doesn't sound like an easy task at all.

 

[Negative Knight]

Very True Olumiday having the affinity means you tend to use it unless for a specific reason e.g. jutsus specially developed or belonging to a specific clan

Muu would probably be a novice in wind/fire jutsus

But is a expert in Earth Techniques (his main e.g. similar to Mei)

 

[Yo pappy]

I think Minato is at a disadvantage here as Mu has the aerial advantage, and summoning anyone of the large toads would be a terrible idea. Mu is also a sensor-type, and a very good one at that. The only thing Minato has going for him in this fight is that he can dodge practically anything Mu shoots at him. There's no way in hell Mu is hitting Minato with anything from mid to long range, which means he has to get close, and that will allow Minato to make his move. Whether or not he can make the best of it we'll never know.