Proof that Second Tsuchikage > Fourth Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[Negative Knight]

do you write the parts of the arguements that are quotes - u know the power analysis or do u just copy and paste o.o

nice thread tho

Lol sadly i write all of it, but get the info and evidence off different sites

 

[NarutoDKurosaki]

+rep Second Tsuchikage wins. Nice argument given to support your idea to

 

[KillerPenguin]

I reckon Mu would win if given the chance to land a pre-emptive strike on Minato with his dust release.

But that's if the battle occurs in a situation where neither of them are aware of each other immediately.

I say this because Muu has a much greater chance of discovering Minato first.

That being said, Minato's reflexes could allow him to survive an opening such as this as surely the dust release isn't a quiet technique.

--

If the battle were to open in a situation where both are in front of each other, then it would probably be very hard for Muu to land any of his dust release techniques on Minato due to his speed, and his invisibility wont help much as Minato be aware of his presence.

Splitting could probably help if Muu used it in conjunction with dust release, but note that his strength is halved when using this jutsu.

--

I'd say that its a hard fight, but the advantage goes towards Muu. Albeit, barely.

 

[byakugan4ever]

you can say that I'm Troll but i think that Minato has good chances against Muu. If learned something in this manga, it is proof that leaf shinobi are little bit op, cause they are (most of them) like batman, no many special powers (techniques) but great arsenal of tactics... Just look at them... Hiruzen, Kakashi, Sakumo, Minato they are all powerfull shinobi just becouse they are able to counter their opponents and waiting for opportunities... No special abilities seen by anyone of them but they are all legendary shinobi...

 

[captainEO]

Nice, I like it. Your explanations make a lot of sense, and they're well reasoned.

Minato definitely couldn't beat Mu.

As you've explained Mu has multiple ways to make FTG useless - changing the surface of the ground and flight nuff said. And on top of that he has invisibility and quick long range attacks too.

Gamabunta would only be a burden for Minato, since he's too large and an easy target for dust release.

And Rasengan isn't enough to harm Mu fatally. Not to mention it would be extremely difficult to land a blow on Mu since he's really quick.

 

[Negative Knight]

Nice, I like it. Your explanations make a lot of sense, and they're well reasoned.

Minato definitely couldn't beat Mu.

As you've explained Mu has multiple ways to make FTG useless - changing the surface of the ground and flight nuff said. And on top of that he has invisibility and quick long range attacks too.

Gamabunta would only be a burden for Minato, since he's too large and an easy target for dust release.

And Rasengan isn't enough to harm Mu fatally. Not to mention it would be extremely difficult to land a blow on Mu since he's really quick.

Lol thanks and that was well reasoned, i thought the very same thing about Gambunta i mean yeah he is fast but no matter where he goes its indifferent to Muu as he's still a easy target for Dust Release.

 

[Prince Charles]

even tho i agree with you, this isn't quite a fair match up considering we barely know minato's feats, and arsonal.

 

[Marcusgoode77]

Muu seems tuff but he was beatable we know this cause he's dead Minato sacrificed him self there was a flee on site order from all the villages .....all the villages also you missing the fact that minato also had sage mode in his pocket dont discount the fact that he made tobi or Madara retreat when he was most certainly had his plan completed. so Minato wins

 

[dvoreski]

Lets remember why the 4th died.... his ability to break down and analyze a situation was similar to shikumaru... the 2nd Tsuchikage is strong no doubt and his will is strong.. but Minato is from Konoha... and his will of fire I think burns brighter... on paper the 2nd Tsuchikage got him beat he has more weapons.. but I think we underestimate the FTG jutsu and minatos ability to use it...

 

[Dr Dark Knight]

I am not really good at the statistics and analysis part... so dunno... it's clear that Muu has better abilities. I'd say, Tobi>Minato (we even have people saying Tobi>Madara, therefore)... but Minato defeated him. Winning a battle is not always about strength, it's more about how you react at that point in time. Oro>>> Sasuke, but Sasuke beat him... really... it is all about the moment, anything is possible... U.U

This!! Couldnt have said it better myself +rep.

just to tweak the argument... Itachi (edo) defeated edo Nagato.. even though Nagato has more strength

 

[TheYellowFlash4]

Dude this seems like a great breakdown and all but it looks like you are more on Mu's side rather than just being balanced. "Disregard my name btw im about to make a new account*

But these are some things I saw that you missed.

1. FTG has no limit as to how far Minato can go, so if a seal or his kunai is somewhere across the world he could still teleport to it, and i saw you just mention mostly kunai's but the seals that he makes for ftg can also move onto their opponent. Also as far as we know FTG does not require any chakra since it is a teleportation jutsu to a seal.

2. The 4th's reflexes are the greatest in the manga so far since he had dodged the Raikages fastest blow, and the Raikage was the second fastest ninja back then.

3. You also talked about their jutsus and honestly i feel like we have not seen minato's arsenal of jutsus at all, infact he has space-time techniques, seals, and rasengan to our knowledge, even his elemental affinity is not known. So basing information like Muu being able to easily overpower minato with jutsus is not backed up by factual materials.

But basicly in the End all you can do is assume who would win in the fight in my opinion it would be Minato, because there has to be a reason he is put on the pedestall that he is on, even Kishi saying that he was top 3 of the strongest ninja ever. All my back up could be found here

 

[repulse]

Second Tsuchikage vs Fourth Hokage​

This is the 3rd installment in the pitting Kages against eachother this is a thread an exception to pitting a relatively unknown Kage against a very known one as both Tsuchikages we have info on are very known by most of the NB members.

This is a thread showing why the Second Tsuchikage is arguably stronger than the Fourth Hokage.

Mu was able to kill the Second Mizukage (arguably the greatest Mizukage in history) which is a massive feat and so can rival Minato in the amount of hype he has





Why the Second Tsuchikage would win against the Fourth Hokage?

1) Elemental Versatility and Infinite Battle Tactics
Due to the Second Tsuchikage possessing several elemental affinities, he is able to use them to their utmost effectiveness rather than simply using it because of the lack of choices available to them. Long range Katon (Fire) techniques allow the Second Tsuchikage to use super heated balls of flames in volleys from a distance to overwhelm the Fourth Hokage from the skies. The Second Tsuchikage can also use his wind techniques from medium range (just out of range, of the Flying Thunder God Technique) to blow away Minato in his attempts to close the gap.

At close range he can use Earth Techniques for close combat, strength boosting techniques and etc. Earth's versatility as a element allows it to be used both offensively and defensively which gives him the ability to quickly adapt to quick paced close combat.

His three natural affinities also allow him to have the elemental advantage over the Wind Element (his fire overwhelms it), his water element (his Earth element dissipates it), his Earth element protects against the wind element
and his Wind element is a natural insulator which is strong against Lightning.


2) Range of the Battle
The Second Tsuchikage's ability to fly can be used to gain a distance advantage over the Fourth Hokage as he specializes in close combat (Taijutsu, Rasengan, FTG Technique) which are all rendered useless at that range. He can also take advantage of the range by using long range volleys of Katon (Fire) techniques and maybe Fuuton (Wind) techniques to be used as a alternative.


3) Ability to Warp the Terrain
Mu could use his Dust Release to devastate the landscape from above leaving many craters in the ground causing trouble for Minato to more around effectively. This could hamper his efforts in dodging volleys of Katon attacks from the Second Tsuchikage. Large Scale Earth techniques can also be used in conjunction with the half destructed landscape to trap/crush Minato and warp the terrain to intercept Minato's movements with Earth technique related traps.


4) Ability to Evade and React to Flying Thunder God Technique
Furthermore, when these detection capabilities are employed in conjunction with his quick reflexes, he can avoid techniques that even other Kage find difficult to evade, as demonstrated when only he instinctively managed to elude the clutches of Gaara's sand hands and avoid Naruto's attack from behind.


The Second Tsuchikage's Elemental Advantage with Dust Release (his Kekkei Tota) and his Elemental affinities

Spoiler

Strengthened by Wind techniques as his Katon (fire) techniques are powered up by increasing their speed and primarily the air feeding the flames.

Immunity to Water techniques as Muu's Earth Affinity has a elemental advantage over water and could be used defensively as a massive wall to because dissipate the force of water rendering the technique less effective.

Immunity to Earth Techniques as the only solid structure element it is at the mercy of Dust release as it is physically able to be disintegrated at a molecular level.

Immunity to lightning techniques as his wind release acts as a natural insulator which stops the Lightning traveling very far and making it impossible to hit Muu unless used a very close range.

Immunity to all physical elements and pseudo elements e.g. Sand and Mud as they like Earth can be physical disintegrated.

If you check the above spoiler tag you will see that whatever element(s) Minato may possess would easily be countered by Mu's Jinton or natural elemental affinities (except if had the fire element). Even then his own Fire element fuelled by that of his wind element would easily overwhelm any fire element attacks possessed by Minato.

Alternative Arguements on why Minato could win​

Other Tactics that could be used by Mu

Spoiler

The Second Tsuchikage can use a combination of his two abilities, splitting and becoming invisible as a last resort attack. It can only be used in the event of Minato landing a successful hit which would do deadly damage.

First he could split and make a duplicate after a potentially lethal subsequently reducing his attack power by half.

Then use his absolute invisibility, to remove all traces of the 2nd body which he now inhabits, to let Minato get his guard down as he would think the battle just ended.

Finally, the Second Tsuchikage has a chance at a devastating sneak attack against Minato which could even out the levels of damage done to each party or even be potentially lethal.

What do you guys think who would win, the Second Tsuchikage or the Fourth Hokage?


Proof that the Third Kazekage > The Third Raikage -

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Proof that the Second Mizukage > The Second Hokage -

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Hmm, I think this match would simmer down to whoever has the most endurance. Muu will exhaust his chakra reserves by using his KKT, I believe that Minato would outlast Muu. You have done a great job of listing and elaborating on how Muu could use his techniques to gain the upper hand, though it's too bad so little is known about Minato. This is a guess, but it seems that you were a bit biased when you wrote this thread...already determining ahead of time that Muu would win.

 

[edo x edo]

No matter who wins, it will be with very high difficulty! however i think minato could pull it off if he got close and placed a marker on mu, after that the calm and calculating fighting style of minatos + ftg would do the trick in the end, like in the fight with tobi... but it would be a long and hard fight due to the strenght and speed of mu. good fight!

 

[Dihajum3]

Not bad, but there's one teeny tiny problem,

WE DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT MINATO !!

We have info on like 3 of his moves and he'll probably never use one of those 3.He has a clear disadvantage in this "Discussion". It's like pitting itachi against someone with restricting Susanoo, amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Minato's strongest moves have never been revealed.

 

[TheYellowFlash4]

Not bad, but there's one teeny tiny problem,

WE DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT MINATO !!

We have info on like 3 of his moves and he'll probably never use one of those 3.He has a clear disadvantage in this "Discussion". It's like pitting itachi against someone with restricting Susanoo, amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Minato's strongest moves have never been revealed.

Thats what I am saying bro

 

[Midday]

This!! Couldnt have said it better myself +rep.

just to tweak the argument... Itachi (edo) defeated edo Nagato.. even though Nagato has more strength

Did you miss the part where Naruto and Bee were there as well as Kabuto taking over?

 

[Negative Knight]

Dude this seems like a great breakdown and all but it looks like you are more on Mu's side rather than just being balanced. "Disregard my name btw im about to make a new account*

But these are some things I saw that you missed.

1. FTG has no limit as to how far Minato can go, so if a seal or his kunai is somewhere across the world he could still teleport to it, and i saw you just mention mostly kunai's but the seals that he makes for ftg can also move onto their opponent. Also as far as we know FTG does not require any chakra since it is a teleportation jutsu to a seal.

2. The 4th's reflexes are the greatest in the manga so far since he had dodged the Raikages fastest blow, and the Raikage was the second fastest ninja back then.

3. You also talked about their jutsus and honestly i feel like we have not seen minato's arsenal of jutsus at all, infact he has space-time techniques, seals, and rasengan to our knowledge, even his elemental affinity is not known. So basing information like Muu being able to easily overpower minato with jutsus is not backed up by factual materials.

But basicly in the End all you can do is assume who would win in the fight in my opinion it would be Minato, because there has to be a reason he is put on the pedestall that he is on, even Kishi saying that he was top 3 of the strongest ninja ever. All my back up could be found here

First off great post + Rep

Yeah i get what you mean, and lol believe me its hard not to be biased but i'm just that bit on Muu's side even though there are many scenarios Minato could win

Also i get Minato has a limited move pool but its been shown he doesn't like using moves that involve hand signs and etc as he considers them slow.

But Muu's Large Scale Earth Techniques would put insane pressure on Minato as he could warp the very ground Minato is walking on, and if Minato chooses to stay in air it would be through the use of using FTG Kunai like crazy.

Combined with Muu's Wind release he could redirect Minato's FTG Kunai and prepare a Jinton intercept Minato's path.

 

[LiirKo]

Hmm, interesting. On paper Muu looks like the more versatile ninja here, although you can't count out Minato's intelligence.

The way I see it it come down to three factors;
1) Can Muu remain undetected and hit minato with a surprise dust release
2) Could Muu surprise Minato by splitting - thereby allowing an opening if one half is hit
3) With Muu's dust release/ earth jutsu/ flying ability can Minato even get a Kunai near him

TBH I think this fight would go to Muu with high difficulty. Minato seems to have the odds stacked against him given Muu's versatility. Is Minato can somehow get close quarters and engage Muu I honestly don't know what would happen. Minato's only chance is to get close, and i'm not sure he can do it, especially since Muu can fly.

Also +'rep for the OP. Excellent job of showing each sides skill set.

I like your analysis, on how Muu is able to win with the diffuculty because of his element of surprise because he can't be detected. Minato may be one of the fastest with his s/t jutsu, but even with his speed and intelligence alone, Muu is very OP especially with the dust release. Muu wins this with extreme difficulty.

 

[mabanae]

fourth is fastest and smart , i think that's enough to beat anyone .
and we didn't see fourth at his full, we seen him fight tobi, a opponent that can be hit like only 1 or 2 sec and that need to be a surprise attack.

he may had more jutsu than we know , not only teleportation and rassengan .

 

[TrollingSage]

Hmm, interesting. On paper Muu looks like the more versatile ninja here, although you can't count out Minato's intelligence.

The way I see it it come down to three factors;
1) Can Muu remain undetected and hit minato with a surprise dust release
2) Could Muu surprise Minato by splitting - thereby allowing an opening if one half is hit
3) With Muu's dust release/ earth jutsu/ flying ability can Minato even get a Kunai near him

TBH I think this fight would go to Muu with high difficulty. Minato seems to have the odds stacked against him given Muu's versatility. Is Minato can somehow get close quarters and engage Muu I honestly don't know what would happen. Minato's only chance is to get close, and i'm not sure he can do it, especially since Muu can fly.

Also +'rep for the OP. Excellent job of showing each sides skill set.

1. Muu cant use dust release whilst invisible. He'll have to be visible to attack.
2. He cant use dust release if he splits. Splitting halves his strenght.