Part 2~ Sandai Dōjutsu

[Princess Kaguya]

Another interesting thread from you! I also thought about the possibility of Kaguya being able to do more with the Byakugan compared to the Hyugas. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.You make a valid point in suggesting that the Rinnegan is also a Sharingan, but not every Sharingan can be a Rinnegan. I'd like for Kaguya's origins to be explained soon since that could provide greater insight on how things evolved.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Another interesting thread from you! I also thought about the possibility of Kaguya being able to do more with the Byakugan compared to the Hyugas. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.You make a valid point in suggesting that the Rinnegan is also a Sharingan, but not every Sharingan can be a Rinnegan. I'd like for Kaguya's origins to be explained soon since that could provide greater insight on how things evolved.

Thank you princess. Glad you liked it. I also can't wait until we hear more about her origins.

 

[SIX PATHZ]

Kaguyas chakra was the only source for Hagromo at that time. His chakra, the Rikudō no Sennin chakra, is the same as Jūbis chakra. Due to that chakra Hagoromo, Naruto, Obito and Madara could achieve the same 'Rikudō Senjutsu'.

Shinju=>Jūbi=>Madara

Shinju=> Kaguya=> Hagoromo
We can assume that Hagoromo was born with his mothers chakra, because it holds the same properties as the origin, the Jūbi which is the incarnation of the Shinju. In this meaning the chakra didn't change much.

Then Hagoromos chakra was split apart into two parts-the Yin(In) part and the Yang(Yō) part. That's also part of the stone tablet. It says: one god was devided into yin and yang. I think, that's why Ashura and Indora coudn't achieve the same techniques as their father.Madara could read that part with his Mangekyō Sharingan.
Kaguya was more powerful because she had far more chakra than Hagoromo. She could do more with it than Hagoromo.

I believe you are right about obito sp. That's also what I said in part 1.

However, like B said, the fact that they have chakra with similar properties would mean imo that hagoromo was born with his mother's chakra. It may not be as powerful but it doesn't take away from the fact that it is similar. His brother was probably the same way.

guts yes.there is no question about obito.

sage clearly address the chakra with him as ''his chakra'' when he met naruto. if not there is nothing like sage chakra.its only kaguya chakra. and 2sones with same chakra would be more powerful then her self.
sage said that ''madra going to close him and then to his mother.''

remember that madara already got sage chakra with rinnegan. but until he adsorb the shinju(kaguya) he didnt awaken the third eye.
and yes kaguya chakra level is massive compare to sage. ( i think itz coz in order to maintain that 9T easy.)

 

[Behemoth55]

sage clearly address the chakra with him as ''his chakra'' when he met naruto. if not there is nothing like sage chakra.its only kaguya chakra. and 2sones with same chakra would be more powerful then her self.
sage said that ''madra going to close him and then to his mother.''

In this meaning everyone should say "Shinjus chakra", but in the end the chakra belongs to Hagoromos body. Kaguya has a Rinnegan and Hagoromo too. The question is why it's different and why Sasuke could awake a red Rinnegan due to Hagoromos power, but your statement would implie that Shinjus/fruit chakra and the chakra of Jūbi would be different, which isn't the case actually, right?

remember that madara already got sage chakra with rinnegan. but until he adsorb the shinju(kaguya) he didnt awaken the third eye.
and yes kaguya chakra level is massive compare to sage. ( i think itz coz in order to maintain that 9T easy.)

Madara could achieve the third eye due to several powers. He said, you need the power of the samsara, the six path's, get close to the moon to awake the third eye.
So far as I know there are three powers directly related to the six path's. And it would also make sense that both Rinnegan are required in the end. Otherwise Madara would have been able to use MT long before.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

Actually, that should be impossible. It remains as long as another suitable host is found. That's the reason why Ashuras chakra was even after Hashiramas death in Madara. Ashuras chakra acts also independently. Ashura and Indora are like the Biju an epiphany of chakra. We can't compare this case to the Kingin Kyōdai either, because Ashuras and Indoras chakra exists alongside of the inner chakra of the transmigrant and wasn't 'absorbed' by the host.

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The former Jinchūriki weren't revived with Bijū chakra either, because it has changed the host like Ashura and Indora.

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There is a reason why Hagoromo said Hashirama was the transmigrant of the previous generation. Your statement would imply that there are over 100000 bodies in this world who hold Ashuras chakra, but I highly doubt that.
Hashiramas cells served a simple purpose~ to revive Sasuke from the dead. Sasuke heartbeat stopped and all his chakra was gone-according to Tobirama(That includes even Hashiramas chakra). Only Hashiramas cells and medical ninjutsu could do something like that.

Madara, Sasuke and Naruto have the same kind of chakra- the Rikudō no Sennin chakra. Hagoromo was born with his mothers chakra inside his body. Kaguya got the chakra of the Shinju. The Jūbi is the incarnation of the Shinju. In this context it's basically on and the same chakra. Only the amount is different. In my opinion the reason why Obito couldn't awake the Rinnegan due to that chakra is that he doesn't have the special "choku tomoe" like Madara, Sasuke and Indora. I think, Indora obtained those tomoe due to his fathers eye power. However, that would also mean Hagoromo had 'choku tomoe' too.

On the other hand Ashuras chakra and Hagoromos Inton wouldn't result in a special hermit chakra. I agree completely with your last statement that Naruto is a half of Hagoromo and Sasuke too. That's what Naruto said anyway.

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But according to Narutos statement, only Hagoromo is the source of their new powers.

Actually I think your "hypothesis" is wrong. First of all regarding your statement "about having 1000's of ashuras" that is incorrect. I do not believe that Ashura and Indra's chakra have Re-Incarnated that often nor do we know exactly how long ago since they died. But we can safely assume that there have been others than Hashirama and Naruto to have been a Reincarnation of Ashura. Perhaps too long ago or simply Not important enough to be remembered etc....

Now let me say what I think about this Confusing situation Kishi has left us With. First of all until confirmed so by kishi himself, we remain but Theorists, and our opinions is not fact however some opinions might be more acceptable than others.

Now regarding The Techniquality of Re-Incarnations. I believe that the Reincarnations are Chosen "at Birth" and therefore The Child born with Ashuras Spirit will have the same/similar Body and Qualities as Ashura while retaining his own as well. Ashura remains an addition not a replacement.

You might wonder then why Naruto didnt have Great power to begin with? Remember what SO6P said about Ashura he had no talent to begin with, he simply had to work very hard for it to Awaken it. Same can be said for naruto.

Now to prove my hypothesis further, Sasuke and Madara were strong and a rarety to begin with. However like I said, the individuals own unique set of Genes also come into play "your own genes + Ashuras chakra" Madara was obviously a rarety at Birth more so than Sasuke. So if Itachi had been Indras Re-incarnation, who knows how powerful he could have become. I realize sasuke fans might not like this, but I am saying that despite being Indras re-incarnation, Sasuke was still inferior to Itachi.

Anyway to conclude, this can perfectly explain why an Edo of Madara and Hashirama can have both their prime Powers. With or without Ashuras spirit, Hashirama has the same chakra as his forefather "ashura" and so does Madara. So Hashiramas Cells inside madara still work even though Indra and Ashura have left because its the chakra that matters. The bijuus Not affect you on that level to be a mixed and certain part of you. They remain individual/seperate even when sealed. Your own chakra nd their chakra are Not essentially One, they can be seperated. Same cant be said for Reincarnations. Thats why the bijuus are not reattained after death "Edo"

Not to mention Hashirama is a decendant of Ashura, having Ashuras spirit probably drove him to Working Hard, therefore awakening the potential that lies within him. Bottomline, dead or alive Hashirama and Madara will have the same body and chakra they were born with "Ashura and Indras + their own"

However Once the Spirit of Ashura and Indra has left them, pethaps certain personality Qualities in spirit of the two would be lacking in the Revived ones, but it would probably be barely noticible given the life they have lived have shaped most of who they are.

and Regarding Hagoromo

he and his brother were exactly like indra and ashura most likely

We dont know whether hagoromo was born with Yin part or Yang, but we can assume its the Yin given his visual powers. But the Yin of kaguya is no small matter.

however this doesnt mean hagoromo didnt recieve any yang ofcourse lol. Simply that his affinity lies greatly in Yin. And the brother in Yang.

 

[Behemoth55]

No, I refer to Shiro Zetsu. Obito and Madara have created over 100000 beings with Hashiramas cells. By your logic nearly everyone would have Ashuras chakra, right?
Indora or Ashura doesn't influence the potential of the host either. Ashura and Indora chose only those with great potential to begin with. That's why Hagoromo said to Naruto: I can see why Ashura chose you!

Kuro Zetsu said-which is Kaguyas will-, Sasuke has more potential than his brother. Despite having disadvantages for his development.
Even if Itachi would have been a transmigrant it wouldn't change it. However, potential is also an individual propertie. Every circle of Ashura and Indora is different. At first Ashura was the 'good for nothing' guy and Indora was perfect. Hashirama was a great Shinobi since birth and Madara was inferior to him. However, Indora influences one important attribute~ that's the Choku Tomoe.


" Anyway to conclude, this can perfectly explain why an Edo of Madara and Hashirama can have both their prime Powers. With or without Ashuras spirit, Hashirama has the same chakra as his forefather "ashura" and so does Madara."

As I said before and have showed with that scan, Ashuras chakra exists alongside Naruto and isn't part of his own chakra concept.
Hashirama, Madara, Sasuke and Naruto since childhood kneaded their own inner chakra with physical and spiritual energy to transform it into the shape of ninjutsu. Their own inner chakra doesn't have the properties of Indoras and Ashuras chakra. Hashiramas own chakra isn't the same as Ashuras in this meaning. Otherwise Naruto and Hashirama would also have the same chakra signature and amount of chakra, but that's not the case currently.
Your statement would make everything Hagromo said about the transmigration redundant.


If Madara and Sasuke would use a chakra exactly like Indoras to build Susanoo, it would have also the same color. That's a given fact. Since Susanoo consists completely of the users chakra. Same chakra= same color. Makes kinda sense. However, Madaras Susanoo looks like this:

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and Sasukes like this:

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It's different, because both of them use their own inner chakra which have different properties.


Madara and Hashirama are not strong because Ashura or Indora chose them, but Ashura and Indora reincarnated inside them because they had a great potential since birth. However, hopefully I didn't misinterpret your argumentation. :3

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

No, I refer to Shiro Zetsu. Obito and Madara have created over 100000 beings with Hashiramas cells. By your logic nearly everyone would have Ashuras chakra, right?
Indora or Ashura doesn't influence the potential of the host either. Ashura and Indora chose only those with great potential to begin with. That's why Hagoromo said to Naruto: I can see why Ashura chose you!

Kuro Zetsu said-which is Kaguyas will-, Sasuke has more potential than his brother. Despite having disadvantages for his development.
Even if Itachi would have been a transmigrant it wouldn't change it. However, potential is also an individual propertie. Every circle of Ashura and Indora is different. At first Ashura was the 'good for nothing' guy and Indora was perfect. Hashirama was a great Shinobi since birth and Madara was inferior to him. However, Indora influences one important attribute~ that's the Choku Tomoe.


" Anyway to conclude, this can perfectly explain why an Edo of Madara and Hashirama can have both their prime Powers. With or without Ashuras spirit, Hashirama has the same chakra as his forefather "ashura" and so does Madara."

As I said before and have showed with that scan, Ashuras chakra exists alongside Naruto and isn't part of his own chakra concept.
Hashirama, Madara, Sasuke and Naruto since childhood kneaded their own inner chakra with physical and spiritual energy to transform it into the shape of ninjutsu. Their own inner chakra doesn't have the properties of Indoras and Ashuras chakra.
Your statement would make everything Hagromo said about the transmigration redundant.


If Madara and Sasuke would use a chakra exactly like Indoras to build Susanoo, it would have also the same color. That's a given fact. Since Susanoo consists completely of the users chakra. Same chakra= same color. Makes kinda sense. However, Madaras Susanoo looks like this:

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and Sasukes like this:

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It's different, because both of them use their own inner chakra which have different properties.


Madara and Hashirama are not strong because Ashura or Indora chose them, but Ashura and Indora reincarnated inside them because they had a great potential since birth. However, hopefully I didn't misinterpret your argumentation. :3

Zetsus are weak copies of "numerously copied over DNA" and have different "Physiology" than an actual human being Let alone someone like Madara or Hashirama :|

and No, your interpretation of hagoromos words im afraid is flawed. The best way to put it, Ashuras Spirit/Chakra is a part of Naruto. And that part goes deeper than anyone can see, otherwise Someone with Byakugan/Sharingan might have noticed it. At the very least we know Sasuke could look into a Jinchurikis bijuu. Yet neither him nor anyone else could even remotely sense Ashura or Indra. So they cant be the same as you put it.

and your last paragraph, lol it was obvious thats what I meant. Someone is chosen because they have the potential for it. What other reasons could there be Lol

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

And to prove my statement above. Obito needed more Hashi's DNA to make the Zetsus stronger.

 

[Behemoth55]

Zetsus are weak copies of "numerously copied over DNA" and have different "Physiology" than an actual human being Let alone someone like Madara or Hashirama :|

They are exact copies of Hashrama even though theirequality is low, sure. However, according to Tobirama the body of Shiro Zetsu consist's completely of his brothers cells.
And Naruto could sense Ashuras and Indoras chakra though.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

They are exact copies of Hashrama even though theirequality is low, sure. However, according to Tobirama the body of Shiro Zetsu consist's completely of his brothers cells.
And Naruto could sense Ashuras and Indoras chakra though.

No thats not how Genetics work. Weak copies of remnants of DNA could produce much weaker chakra and body, thereby not the same. Also like I said Zetsus physiology is different than a human being.

I dont believe we even seen a white Zetsu perform ninjutsu with handsigns. But thats irrelevant.

and there are two "possible" times naruto could sense it, which are u talking about?

 

[Behemoth55]

No thats not how Genetics work. Weak copies of remnants of DNA could produce much weaker chakra and body, thereby not the same. Also like I said Zetsus physiology is different than a human being.

Shiro Zetsu can use Hashiramas abilities like Mokuton or Kagerō. It's weaker than the original, as you said it, but they are copies like Madara said. They hold Hashiramas Kekkai Genkai and regeneration after all.

and there are two "possible" times naruto could sense it, which are u talking about?

Chapter 488. And it's possible to see Ashura or Indora though. Hagoromo could clearly see it with his Rinnegan and Kaguya could notice them as well with her Byakugan. The usual 'fodder' can't see them because they are not skilled enough.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

Shiro Zetsu can use Hashiramas abilities like Mokuton or Kagerō. It's weaker than the original, as you said it, but they are copies like Madara said. They hold Hashiramas Kekkai Genkai and regeneration after all.



Chapter 488. And it's possible to see Ashura or Indora though. Hagoromo could clearly see it with his Rinnegan and Kaguya could notice them as well with her Byakugan. The usual 'fodder' can't see them because they are not skilled enough.

First of all as I said. They are a lot weaker due to the reasons I mentioned, but of course they rettain some of the Original ability? afterall they were made from hashi's DNA. Infact if anything I think you just proved me right. Why would they rettain some of hashiramas/ashuras unique abilities if I wasnt right about the chakra being part of the Body? unless you are saying that ability is a kekkeigenkai unique to hashirama and has Nothing to do with ashura? in which case I would ask why wouldnt his brothers gain the same kekkeigenkai? and so many more questions would follow

And put that all aside it still remains irrelevant. Because as I said zetsus are copies on top of copies of weak DNA, AND with different Physiology. So I dont see how you have proved anything here?

and regarding Naruto. First of all I dont think that has been confirmed yet hat its what he meant.

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take a look at the page he says "at current level" what would indra have to with level? unless that page is mistranslated

EVEN if, the answer is simple, Naruto did Not see anything, its just PNJ, narutos overnatural sense of friendship and spirit feel with his best friend, he simply may have felt that there is something similar inside them.

Now honestly if youre over your ego "no offense really but I know it well" then I should be heading to sleep.

 

[SIX PATHZ]

In this meaning everyone should say "Shinjus chakra", but in the end the chakra belongs to Hagoromos body. Kaguya has a Rinnegan and Hagoromo too. The question is why it's different and why Sasuke could awake a red Rinnegan due to Hagoromos power, but your statement would implie that Shinjus/fruit chakra and the chakra of Jūbi would be different, which isn't the case actually, right?
Madara could achieve the third eye due to several powers. He said, you need the power of the samsara, the six path's, get close to the moon to awake the third eye.
So far as I know there are three powers directly related to the six path's. And it would also make sense that both Rinnegan are required in the end. Otherwise Madara would have been able to use MT long before.

its funny coz we already saw calling as sage , indra , ashura chakra.itz coz those chakra got varieties.thats why its call in that names.
cant call its as shinju chakra coz itz not actually it i dont think its that much hard to understand.
sasuke awaken that rinnegen due to indra+sage. just only with sage chakra he can awaken the normal rinnegan. he went far coz he add indra on it.
where did i implied like shinju chakra different than juubi chakra?

madara only could achived the third eye due to power if shinju/kaguya. when the time he adsorb it clearly showed in scans.
just no. madara said ''the one who has the power of samarasa get close to the moon'' simply mean the one who has a power of that third eye can cast MT on moon.

kaguya didint had the rinnegan she had the byakugan.still cast the justu.even that implies the different between them.
agree with the two eye thing.he needed it.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

its funny coz we already saw calling as sage , indra , ashura chakra.itz coz those chakra got varieties.thats why its call in that names.
cant call its as shinju chakra coz itz not actually it i dont think its that much hard to understand.
sasuke awaken that rinnegen due to indra+sage. just only with sage chakra he can awaken the normal rinnegan. he went far coz he add indra on it.
where did i implied like shinju chakra different than juubi chakra?

madara only could achived the third eye due to power if shinju/kaguya. when the time he adsorb it clearly showed in scans.
just no. madara said ''the one who has the power of samarasa get close to the moon'' simply mean the one who has a power of that third eye can cast MT on moon.

kaguya didint had the rinnegan she had the byakugan.still cast the justu.even that implies the different between them.
agree with the two eye thing.he needed it.

Well I disagree with most of what you said there sp. Madara did not get the third eye with just the power of shinju/kaguya. Like Hagoromo said, he was able to mix ashura's and indra's chakra and that allowed him to go this far. Also I believe kaguya was only able to cast IT after consuming the fruit and having an equivalent power. She didn't just have the byakugan when she casted it.

 

[SIX PATHZ]

Well I disagree with most of what you said there sp. Madara did not get the third eye with just the power of shinju/kaguya. Like Hagoromo said, he was able to mix ashura's and indra's chakra and that allowed him to go this far. Also I believe kaguya was only able to cast IT after consuming the fruit and having an equivalent power. She didn't just have the byakugan when she casted it.

you got it all wrong bro.im also disagree with that your conclusion. i didnt meant anything like you thought.

simply i said sage chakra+shinju/kaguya gave him that third eye.
just think first madara wanted the shinju to cast MT on the moon. why? coz shinju got that eye.after the flower blooms on the shinju that eye under the flower going to be reviled. remember madara explained it?
after absorbing the shinju madara got the power inside his body. eye/shinju. as it shows in the scans.

lol man. of coz kaguya cast MT after ate the fruit.i doubted that she did had byakugan to begin with coz that will make her a hyugaa.

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

you got it all wrong bro.im also disagree with that your conclusion. i didnt meant anything like you thought.

simply i said sage chakra+shinju/kaguya gave him that third eye.
just think first madara wanted the shinju to cast MT on the moon. why? coz shinju got that eye.after the flower blooms on the shinju that eye under the flower going to be reviled. remember madara explained it?
after absorbing the shinju madara got the power inside his body. eye/shinju. as it shows in the scans.

lol man. of coz kaguya cast MT after ate the fruit.i doubted that she did had byakugan to begin with coz that will make her a hyugaa.

Oh ok, sorry I misunderstood then.

But also I don't agree with this "sasuke awaken that rinnegen due to indra+sage. just only with sage chakra he can awaken the normal rinnegan. he went far coz he add indra on it." Maybe I misunderstood again but sasuke needed more than just sage chakra to unlock the rinnegan.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

Oh ok, sorry I misunderstood then.

But also I don't agree with this "sasuke awaken that rinnegen due to indra+sage. just only with sage chakra he can awaken the normal rinnegan. he went far coz he add indra on it." Maybe I misunderstood again but sasuke needed more than just sage chakra to unlock the rinnegan.

Hashi's cells/Chakra + Sage's Yin "indra" is what help people awaken rinnegan you are right

however I get what SIX PATHZ is trying to say, because I believe the same thing

you could say Sasuke has sort of "Double Indra" Indra was the Sages YIN and Sasuke was already Indra, so thats a double add hashi to it, its Sages YIN + indra + hashi = More than required for a normal rinnegan

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Hashi's cells/Chakra + Sage's Yin "indra" is what help people awaken rinnegan you are right

however I get what SIX PATHZ is trying to say, because I believe the same thing

you could say Sasuke has sort of "Double Indra" Indra was the Sages YIN and Sasuke was already Indra, so thats a double add hashi to it, its Sages YIN + indra + hashi = More than required for a normal rinnegan

Oh ok that makes more sense. I don't mind that explanation at all and if that's what sp was trying to say then that's great. I just thought he meant Indra+sage gives you rinnegan, period, which is what I had a problem with.
Thanks for explain it lol.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

Oh ok that makes more sense. I don't mind that explanation at all and if that's what sp was trying to say then that's great. I just thought he meant Indra+sage gives you rinnegan, period, which is what I had a problem with.
Thanks for explain it lol.

Well at the very latest thats what I believe about why Sasuke has that Jubi eye a long time ago. Dont forget im the one who predicted the Jubi eye =D

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and I will be forever proud of it in my heart =D

lets wait and hear what SIX PATHZ has to say xd

 

[guts2nevergiveup]

Well at the very latest thats what I believe about why Sasuke has that Jubi eye a long time ago. Dont forget im the one who predicted the Jubi eye =D

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and I will be forever proud of it in my heart =D

lets wait and hear what SIX PATHZ has to say xd

Damn I actually never saw that V. Good job, you should be proud of it. It's very interesting. You're right let's wait for sp.