guts2nevergiveup
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btw I like how a lot of people bashed what you said for no reason and didn't include an explanation for why they thought it was wrong.
Part 2~ Sandai Dōjutsu
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guts2nevergiveup
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guts2nevergiveup
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guts2nevergiveup
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Behemoth55
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That's the point of your whole argumentation. You said Kaguya has a chakra different than Hagoromo, a chakra that's different to the Rikudō no Sennin chakra. But actually that can't be true, because Hagoromos chakra has the same properties as Jūbi. That chakra is also the origin of the Rikudō Senjutsu.
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The Jūbi is the incarnation of the Shinju. In this meaning there shoudn't be a difference regarding chakra. If Hagoromo has the same chakra as Jūbi/Shinju then he has the same as his mother, because she achieved -due to the fruit- the power of Shinju. Only the amount is different.
If Hagoromos chakra has similar properties than Jūbi it would make sense that Sasuke could achieve also the Jūbis eye power.
However, the reason why Hagoromos and Madara Rinnegan looks different, but is declared as the one and the same Dōjutsu, could have many clarifications. On the other hand Kaguya even said that Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke those techniques. I don't think Sasuke
could obtain the red Rinnegan due to Hagoromo+Indora, that would contradict with Narutos and Kaguyas statements.
But I won't say it can't be right though.
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"When one who has the power of the samsara comes near the moon an eye shall open and project itself on the moon."
The eye, the third eye, is bound to the power of Rinne and the moon, otherwise it won't open.
Your just assume everything and show up those as fact.without been a reincarnation no one can born up with someone else chakra.
In other hand you accept that sage chakra got some differences than kaguya. So that's why itz call as 'his chakra.'
Then explain me how sasuke went beyond normal rinnegan and why madara got normal rinnegan after having sage power?
Sage clearly said 'his chakra awakened the rinnegan of madara'.
Madara only had Indra+ashura.
And sasuke had sage+Indra. It's like the power of two indra's. Coz sage him self had the power of Indra too.
That's the best explanation right now I think.
Exactly madara didn't said '' gain the eye'' he said 'open the eye.' So I'm right there. He gain that eye by absorbing the shinju. Itz clearly shows in the scans and shinju flower do the same thing.blooms and open the eye to moon.
Thx for proving my point.
guts2nevergiveup
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Behemoth55
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Actually, by given facts Sasukes Rinnegan is the same as Hagoromos. It sounds irritating, but the manga doesn't differentiate between Sasukes and Hagoromos Rinnegan.
If you would like to know one difference between Madaras and Sasukes case, I may can give you one. Madara could achieve due to Ashura and Indoras chakra the base chakra of Hagoromo, but Sasuke has gotten Hagoromos senchakra. The Jūbi consists completely of nature energy and has the same eye. Maybe the energy of nature is the reason why Sasuke has an eye similar to Jūbi.
That's just one difference I could realise. If Hagoromo awoke the Rinnegan since birth, but without having the power of nature at that age, it may be the reason why he had the same eye as Madara. Afterwards he was able to build senchakra. However, I could be wrong though.
You should consider the context. Without having the power of Rinne, the eye won't open. That's a basic requirement to awake the third eye in the first place. Why should Madara achieve the eye due to the Shinju? He had the incarnation of the holy tree which has the same eye long before.
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It's like you saying that 3T and the MS is the same thing. It's not the same thing. Each other got different dojutsu. Saying that is the same thing implied also madara can cast MT without third eye coz It's the same thing right? Same eyes?
Sasuke got eye beyond Normal rinnegan. The next step of Normal rinnegan.
In one hand your saying sage=kaguya then your saying he didn't got natural energy in birth.
You already know as 'god divided to two' as you told early. Then where is this base and sen form coming from? Indra and a ashura did not got any base power and madara was Indra.
And when the time sage give power to sasuke he was not the juubi jin.
Then your not agree with sage+Indra beyond rinnegan that sasuke got.but after that your saying natural energy sage had gave him that eye?
What are you talking about?
think i understand what your trying to say. your sayin juubi got that third eye and juubi is full of natural energy so you want natural energy to gain that eye. right?
then why didnt madara or obito gain that eye when the time they become juubi jin? only after absorb the shinju/kaguya madara gain that eye and gain that kaguya form.
Now your getting out of your previous argument. But your wrong in here again.if rinne was a fact then how did kaguya open that eye?
and sasuke having the same eye and he didnt want to look at moon or rinne to open it.
if you are going to say sake not got the similar eye then read the first few pages of ch.678.
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Behemoth55
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It's the same Dōjutsu, because it has been classified as a Rinnegan several times. That's the current state of things. Every Rinnegan holds also a special technique. Therefore your argument is invalid. :3
Hagoromos Rinnegan manifest itself in two eyes, the red Rinnegan in one eye. But according to Madara it's the same Dōjutsu.
I was saying that the Rikudō no Sennin chakra is Hagoromos senchakra. That chakra is the same as Jūbis and therefore Kaguyas too.
Afterwards I was just going along with your own thesis that Hagoromos chakra is different than Kaguyas to conceive an idea together. That's not part of my own original thesis. ^^
No, I don't think you understand, but that's not your fault. I'll try to explain it. Naruto and Sasuke have gotten Hagoromos chakra. Sasuke classified it as the Rikudō no Sennin chakra, the hermit chakra of the six paths. That's a special kind of senchakra. Due to it, Sasuke could cut a Jinchūriki of the Jūbi into pieces.
You asked why Sasuke could achieve an eye similar to Jūbi/Shinju, right? I think, it's due to that special senchakra. Senchakra involves the energy of nature, Jūbi consists completely of nature energy. Therefore I have associated the energy of nature to Jūbi. However, now we could ask why Obito couldn't awake the red Rinnegan in his other eye. It's just my own thesis, but maybe the Choku Tomoe are like Hagoromos chakra a basic requirement for the Rinnegan. Sasuke, Madara, Indora and (Hagoromo maybe too) have those choku tomoe.
Madara achieved that eye after he got back his second Rinnegan. He absorbed the holy tree before that, but didn't even try to get close to the moon=> because it would be pointless.
I can't tell you why Kaguya could get the third eye while having two Byakugan though, however, we should consider that the concept of Rinne, the samsara, doesn't refer only to the samsara eye. But I think it's kinda obvious that Madara got only the third eye due to Jūbis power and his two Rinnegan.
I don't differentiate between Sasukes and Madaras purple Rinnegan. I don't think the author would declare it several times as the same Dōjutsu without a reason. But that's just my own opinion.
If you think that Hagoromos chakra is different than his mothers chakra then why has it shown the same properties as Jūbis chakra which is the incarnation of the holy tree actually?
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ok i can see you skip up few thing thats good.coz itz implies your agree about those things.
first of all your just lost here.
they all got same dojutsu? cmon man.each of those eyes welds ocular abilities. if all those all same dojutsu they should have same abilities ans i cant believe im arguing about something like this.
like i told its more implies like madara could CAST MT with his normal rinnegan. so no way.
you was lost there too.no matter you going with my thesis or not you should keep your basic fact straight. you were fail to do that there.saying sage=kaguya then saying sage didint had natural energy in birth.
again your doing the same thing.
first you disagree with SAGE+INDRA=SAUSUKE RINNEGAN. now you saying SAGE SENCHAKRA gave SASUKE RINNRGAN. for real?
plz understand that he got that chakra even before indra born. so naturally they already had it.
your assuming he got those senchakra due to juubi as i said. so your just say NO to me there and write down the same thing again what i was told.
obito couldn't even awekend the purple rinnrgan coz he is no indra or ashura or did not had sage chakra. itz clear as a day and sage him self explained it.
plz check on that chapter madara absorbing the shinju/kaguya. it clearly showed that he gaining that third eye. dont understand why you still denying the things that already proved in manga.
if madara got that third eye ''ONLY DUE TO JUUDIS POWER AND HIS RINNEGAN'' then why kishi show that he gaining it while absorbing the shinju? why did not ibito got it? coz of tomoe? oh plz. hr lost all those coz of tomoe? itz due to reincarnation not ant tomoe.
sasuke got red rinnegen not purple and not understand your last quz.
Behemoth55
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That's no argument. The same Dōjutsu doesn't result in the same abilities always. No reason to deny it. Sure, Madara could only cast MT with his third eye, but it doesn't change the fact that that eye was classified as a Rinnegan in chapter 678...
I have pretty much explained that. Also, you should consider the whole context of my previous statement. It wouldn't even matter if Hagoromo would have been born without nature energy, since he achieved the Rikudō Senjutsu and hermit chakra later anyway. :|
Yes, for real. I have explained that too. By given facts Sasuke has gotten Hagoromos senchakra. Naruto declares Sasuke as the second half of Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki. Kaguya said, it was Hagoromo who gave Sasuke and Naruto those techniques~ Rinnegan/Rikudō Senjutsu=>
No special involvement of Indora in this context. Sasuke met Hagoromo and obtained his chakra. That's the origin of his Rinnegan-according to Kaguya.
What are you talking about? If Madara would have been able to use the power of the third eye at that time...
{That's Kaguya on the left panel}
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....then why didn't he use it immediately, hm? Please show me where Madara was shown with the third eye right after he had absorbed the holy tree and maybe you can explain why he didn't use it before he had his second Rinnegan. :/
However, my whole argumentation could be wrong, sure, but at least please try to explain to me, which part especially seems wrong and why.
Anyway, I'm thankful to all readers and hopefully you'll stick with our next threads too.
But never mind~
Now I would like to ask you which theme is more interesting in your opinion for the next part.
1. Senjutsu
or
2. Kekkai Genkai/Kekkai Tōta
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every dojutsu got unique abilitiys. not only madara if anyone want to cast MT on the moon that person want that third eye. even inside the flower of shinju got the same kind a eye. also madara clearly explained it to hashi as well.
(thats why sasuke got that one eye instead of two normal rinnegans.to fight with same abilities and undo the MT most likely as kakashi said.)
its call rinnegan coz its also a form of a rinnegan.for any kind a sharingan itz basically call as sharingan too. so not any surprise there calling that name.
if you really want a other name its also call as juubi eye too.
so your saying sage did not get rikudu senjutsu in birth of after been a juubi jin. so when and how he got it?
you keep saying this senjutsu thing over and over without any feat. no matter what he got it must pass down to indra as well. your the one said that '' God divided two as yin and yang.'' so where was that senjutsu chakra in that time?
according to kaguya they are indra and ashura as well. the two already got sage chakra in half.
i never said that madara cluld case MT with one rinne or something. your the one who dined that madara obtain that third eye by absorbing shinju. now i can see you accept it. thats good.
form those two i would say senjutsu and itz early age.
thax man.
guts2nevergiveup
Active member
I think the thing is that regarding the sage chakra, you completely differentiate between indra and the sage's chakra but there are almost equivalent. Indra's chakra is like a part of hagoromo's chakra and maybe this is where the confusion lies.
Also he never denied the fact that madara got the third eye after absorbing the shinju. Even in the op we said that one of the requirements was that one needed the senjustu and we said that madara got that by absorbing the shinju/jubi. Hagoromo probably had some already because he was the son of kaguya.