We've seen how little his family thinks of him and you think anything shy of defeating(helping his captain) the woman they had to turn to for help conquering their home sea will persuade them to flip their attitude and respect Sanji?
Yeah. There's no reason they wouldn't respect Sanji for getting the drop on Big Mom.
The brothers didn't even respect Luffy when they met him why would they if all he manages to do is stop a wedding and reveal a murder plot?
We've seen that they don't respect any pirate. They don't even respect Big Mom, so kind of a failed point here.
We've seen how arrogant Judge is, if that's all that happens you don't think he'd get out of dodge all smug talking down to Luffy and Sanji despite them saving them? Cus that's the attitude I've got from Judge and the brothers.
Not necessarily. In fact, with Judge's arrogance and smugness, he'd probably be ashamed and deeply embarrassed either way it goes rather than grateful.
As for BM falling removing any reason for the Vinsmokes to ally with the GF isn't entirely true, they would owe Luffy a debt and though jerks they seem formal and militaristic so I feel Judge would honor something like that, he may not though. With BM down though they wouldn't have to worry about her coming back after them as they would if all they did was flee this time. They could go back to East Blue until Luffy needs his Fleet(like the rest of the fleet has done)
They would still owe Luffy a debt if Luffy created the chaos that allowed them to escape. With Big Mom defeated, they'd have no reason not to go back to the North Blue and piss off. The Vinsmokes are evil to the core, so I don't know why you think they'd have any honor when it comes helping and subordinating themselves to Luffy either way.
I'm not trying to argue with you about what's better or not, I'm arguing about you calling something objectively bad because you feel an alternate would be better.
The decision to go with an inferior plotline over an available superior plotline is a bad decision, even if the storyline itself is not bad.
The storyline that I called bad is Luffy beating Big Mom, not including other characters.
I might add what you're calling bad is the same thing you identified as "what the manga's been doing for 20 years" so then why is it bad writing now, and remember "because there's a better choice(in my mind)" isn't a qualifier on if something is bad or not. Again, Beatles better than Weezer, Weezr not bad. Blue better than Red, Red not bad. Better is subjective.
Answered above and no, better isn't always subjective. There are objective qualities to writing as well. If there wasn't, we wouldn't have concepts like cliches. I trust Oda's writing, but after a while, the use of a cliche just taints your work. Oda's manga is at a point where, albeit prominent, the cliche is subverted enough so that the writing isn't bad. Arcs like Sabaody, Marineford, Dressrosa, and Thriller Bark are good pauses in the "MC victory cliche." But once you start to overuse it, like Fairy Tail and Dragon Ball Z, you get blotches of bad writing in your story.
Because they were involved in the finale. That's not the same as being involved in the start and getting a recognition boost for the finish like you're proposing with the BM/Kaidou scenario. Law and Kidd got lumped in because they walked out alongside Luffy at the height of the chaos. That is a case of mistakenly being accredited something, that's not the same as getting credit for starting something even though you didn't finish it.
Who cares when it happened? The fact is that it happened. It's proof that you don't have to do the most to get recognition because they still got recognition anyways.
Maybe, except for the fact that the WG buries Luffy's actions even when he charges right at them; Alabasta, TB and EL. All instances where the WG decided to keep quiet about Luffy's role and not give him the credit publicly. But you say as fact they'll give him credit now for being the spark that caused two Yonkou to fight, I don't agree with that as we've seen that's not always the case. I can't remember but Luffy got a bounty increase because of Sabaody right, wasn't that stated somewhere? Did Law or Kidd get any bounty increase explicitly related to Sabaody and the auction house?
Who cares hit about public credit? The World Government is the enemy here, not the general public. Who gives an honest shit if they know jack shit about Luffy when his biggest enemies know? So long as other pirates know and the World Government knows, it doesn't matter that the cobbler in Alabasta doesn't know. And no, Luffy received an accumulative raise in bounty for punching the CD, causing the breakout of Impel Down, and fighting at Marineford.
I didn't say he had to be, I said he likely would be and imo he should be. That's not the same as saying he has to be. If he isn't he isn't. I already touched on Aokiji, internal conflicts don't matter, if a supernova faced a mutiny Luffy wouldn't need to be there.
What? This is probably the most irrelevant thing you've said. Aokiji vs Akainu had drastic effects on the world, and Luffy didn't need to be there or be involved for it to happen. I was saying that, like this incident, the major events of the One Piece world and story don't have to always be Luffy, which the argument employed by you, LBeezy, and the child insinuates when you say "If it's important, it should be/has to be Luffy."
I was referring more so to events or obstacles related to opening the path to Raftel and OP. And I'm not saying they're the only ones allowed to fight Yonkou but if a Yonkou were to fall I think it would be only fitting to have the next PK be involved in that altercation somehow.
Good thing if Kaido takes out Big Mom, Luffy was involved in making it happen.
He wouldn't even have to be on the winning side, say if BB took out Shanks, I think Luffy should be involved in the arc whether helping Shanks or getting there just too late, something.
You mean like how if Kaido and Big Mom fight, causing BM to fall, then the fight happened because of what Luffy did to them? Genius.
Also gotta love how you say all thread Luffy needs to gain some kind of recognition when an Emperor falls as an argument against my "Emperor vs Emperor" argument and then you propose a scenario where an Emperor defeats an Emperor in a way that would get Luffy no recognition. And you wanna talk about inconsistency.
I didn't say he needed to respect them to kill them, he respects them so little it didn't seem like he intended to chase them rather deal with them if he comes across them hence the "you better run" line, like a "don't let me see you" threat, you're not out looking for the person but if you see them, it's on.
That's assuming Kaidou is out there chasing Luffy. Kaidou's real goal is getting Caesar back first and dealing with Luffy and Law second. If they disrupt this wedding and word gets round the world it will reach Kaidou and in that news via picture or word of mouth he'd likely find out Caesar was with BM at WCI then he'd likely go there for Caesar first since that's more important to him than Luffy. Then why he was out getting Caesar he'd learn that the other part of the SH's are on Wano causing problems. Kaidou would return to Wano to deal with Zoro and co. as Luffy heads to Wano to meet them.
And how would Kaido get Caesar back? By going after the people that have him, which would be Luffy and Law's alliance after Whole Cake is complete. They disrupt the wedding getting Caesar back and word gets around. Kaido catches wind and discovers that Luffy and Law's groups have Caesar. He travels towards Whole Cake Island from Wano, along the same path that Luffy is taking to get to Wano from Whole Cake to reunite with his crew. Big Mom is following them, Big Mom and Kaido cross paths both demanding Caesar back. Neither is okay with the other taking Caesar, they fight, Strawhats escape to Wano during the commotion.
All the events can really still play out most likely regardless what starting point is taken but the thing that hung me up the most was you all complaining about a loss of world building and bad writing if the manga played out as you've said "the same way since the start" then saying we're the ones with a problem with OP, if you dislike OP doing what it's been doing then maybe you're the one with the issue.
"If you see bad writing, then you're the one with the issue." Aristotle over here.
Anyways, I already addressed this earlier. Breaks in cliche subvert the usage of the cliche and balances out the story. One Piece isn't bad because it doesn't overdo the cliche, and goes for other options when possible. This should be one such occassion.
Blackbeard literally strolled in and stole the world's strongest paramecia from a walking corpse, what choice would the WG have but to acknowledge a man with 2 of the most feared fruits? The two actions wouldn't even be comparable.
This isn't even why Blackbeard became an Emperor but good job!
I'm not seeing the inconsistency, Kaidou never lost his title as Yonkou because of those feats seeing as he still has the title today. So what was inconsistent? For the record we don't even actually know that Kaidou was a yonkou at the time of those defeats and not on his way to the title just like we don't know if Moriah was a Shichibukai when he fought Kaidou and we don't know if Shanks was already a Yonkou back at Romance Dawn.
When I said one Emperor dethroning another has never been done, you retorted with "But Kaido has lost to Emperors before!" While also saying "We've never seen an Emperor being dethroned." How does that add up exactly?
If BM falls at the hands of Luffy and Capone at the wedding what do you think the real chances are she holds her Yonkou title? With all of her guests seeing her defeat? See if a Yonkou beats another Yonkou then the ones under the defeated won't really feel much of a certain way because a big name beat them, that's expected and they probably would assume the winning Yonkou would just take them under their flag. But if a Yonkou fell to someone "lower" then that could incite some of those formerly under their rule to rebel and try and spread out on their own.
Who cares?
Wh-what?
Irrelevant. It's still a connection.
And how does any connection between Moriah's powers and BM's powers translate into a fated conflict between BM and Kaidou?
I never said that translates to a fated battle between them. I said that's a connection between them and, when combined with the other connections, reinforces the idea that Big Mom and Kaido's storylines will converge.
It's their relationships with Caesar and the context their personalities bring that makes that convergence likely to be one where they fight. Remove Caesar, and the conflict is gone, but the connections and reinforcement of a converging storyline still remain.
And how does that connect to a fight between the two? So BM's power is similar to a power of a pirate that Kaidou wiped the floor with? Ok and? How does that connection between the twos power further a conflict between BM and Kaidou?
Explained.
G4 was used on Kiadou's top business partner and Nightmare Luffy was used on a character with a strong resemblance in size and stature as Kaidou(Oars) You could just as easily lump this in with a Luffy/Kaidou connection.
That's kind of the point, Batman. You do realize that Luffy is deeply involved with all of these connections and is responsible for many of them, because he's deeply involved in the two storylines?
And how is this indicative that BM and Kaidou will fight?
Answered.
#1 applies to Luffy as well especially since the wedding ended up revolving around one of his crew members. Other than that these are correlations between the characters not reasons why they would fight each other. Luffy fighting BM has been laid out way more than a fight between BM and Kaidou.
Answered.
1. Wedding intro back in TB as you said.
2. Luffy befriended BM's daughter back in TB who we find out BM is furious with(as I said she probably would be)
3. Luffy threatened to kick her ass on FMI
4. Luffy is predicited to destroy one of her territories.
5. Luffy has to save his crew memeber.
6. Luffy's friends' life is on the line.
7. Luffy stole her tribute
8. Luffy rigged the box that she's ecstatic about getting.
All of these are reasons for the two to fight. The only reason BM and Kaidou have to fight is Caesar.
Sure, let them fight. I don't mind that, so long as he doesn't defeat her.
