[Predictions] One Piece Manga Chapter 856 Discussion and 857 Predictions

[bajram]

"I wanna go home to Sunny", I ****ing cringed my balls off literally.

Also Rebbeca seems to have grown a penis and continued her legacy into the next saga...stop with the crying ffs.

 

[Love Cook]

Well said chopstick.. they rather see the main character lose so that can have an expansive story smh.. like how many people wouldve really been happy if luffy lost to doffy so doffy could fight kaido ????

People on this forum cry when the author writes his story his own way.. then they say its poor writing.. smh luffy will defeat bigmom get over it already.



He wasnt ready to fight doffy but it happened, he also wasnt ready to fight rob lucci the first time but it all happened within there respective arcs, and these stronger opponents were defeated by luffy, who wasnt READY!!!!!

If your bias brain can stop nit picking at certain parts of my post you will realize i said this is what I personally like about onepiece. You cant bash me because this is what i like. Its my oppinion, just like your opinion of him running away so we can see a pointless kaido vs bm fight.

The main reason i watch one piece is FACT that he goes against opponents who are farrrr stronger then him.. not your lil baby way of him sneaking around the new world so u can see other characters just to please you. LUFFY WOULD NEVER RUN AGAIN HE SAID IT HIMSELF.. so its your fault wanting him too and calling it poor writing.. thats your mistake.

I wish oda could read the bullshit you guys are saying about his manga. I just dont understand why you keep reading and keep posting and keep crying about the writing of the story when you can just stop reading it.

I guess you guys are just luffy haters.. no you guys hate on anything that doesnt go as you planned or as you see fit for a story you didnt write. I hate haters bro. How can yu hate a manga yu follow everday wtf .. bias ass people. . Hypocrisy man seriously(same people who are suppose to love onepiece)

Ill say it one more time, we dont care if the story goes our way or the suuuuper long franky way that yall want.. but the difference is we wont bash the whole thread because the story doesnt go our way, you guys make it your priority to try and shit on our predictions and shit on oda for writing it that way..

losers. Guess ill bash yall the same way yall keep doing us so your views suck and thats exactly why Oda isnt writing onepiece in that shitty way your thinking of hahahah.

When luffy defeats bigmom ill definately be here to mail you a baby nipple.. crybaby a** leave the forum. We dont need your stupid bm vs kaido post anymore, and we dont want to read anymore illogical, opinionated, and expansive post from you guys. Go watch harry potter if you want an expansive story.. reading your retarded post that have no real value in the present time are depressing as a onepiece fan.

Well I guess One Piece just isn't for you then. Never too late to pick up some Fairy Tail.

 

[chopstickchakra]

You're telling me to kill myself because I called something that is a repeated cliche a repeated cliche, and saying that not repeating a cliche would be a better story?

You're telling me to kill myself because I said it's better for Oda to keep characters important and not waste them like other series have?

But we're the immature ones, right?


That's one thing that is not an opinion, it's a fact. Oda has an arc written up for Revolutionaries. Dressrosa was Law and Doflamingo's arc. We have the upcoming Reverie. Banaro Island and the Post-War mini-arc were about the world around Luffy with Luffy just being a fraction of that focus. Marineford was an arc for Ace, the Whitebeard pirates, the world and the Marines in equal amounts as it was for Luffy. As Luffy does things, we constantly have chapters that show the rest of the world's reactions, changes, or events. When Luffy's bounty goes up, we see reactions around the entire world. A manga that isn't about an expansive world wouldn't show reactions across the entire world to everything that happens. What about this makes One Piece not an expansive story about a collective world, and not just about one character?


They're not exclusive. In fact, they go hand in hand. Because this is a manga about an adventure through a world, the adventure relies on the world being expansive and widely built. You can't have an adventure manga without an expansive world.


The fact that you said you don't want to see characters with no real connections clash automatically makes this opinion irrelevant because Big Mom and Kaido do have real connections.


This isn't an insult. In fact, it's a positive statement. We want this storyline because it's better, not the other way around. The only people who have used "I want this to happen" as the basis of their argument is you.




It's actually the exact opposite. I wouldn't expect for a storyline that incorporates an expansive world and maintenance of side character importance if One Piece wasn't already written in that format. THAT'S the kind of writing that Oda prefers.

I know I said I was done but we both knew that wouldn't last. I;m not gonna address all this bit by bit either I just wanna ask one thing since I don't remember you actually answering it when I asked and you keep bringing up "wasting side characters"

So I'm curious who is this army of side characters that would be getting wasted if BM is defeated at this wedding by Luffy and the assembly of others there? BM wouldn't be wasted. Kaidou wouldn't be wasted since he'll have a role in Wano. The Vinsmokes won't be wasted since they'll live and can be incorporated into the SHGF. Capone won't be wasted since he's making moves but those moves won't mean anything if Kaidou shows up. The only thing I really see being "wasted" is the altercation between BM and Kaidou.

On the other hand I can think of some things that would/could be wasted if BM and Kaidou fight now. The Vinsmokes may(and likely) wouldn't feel any appreciation to Sanji for saving them if Kaidou beats BM and they may not get to see Sanji's new strength like they will if the story continues the way it's progressing. Capone would lose a chance to gain notoriety, that's a side character built up to be a big name being wasted no? Plus, his moves would be wasted if Kaidou showed up during the wedding no? You guys say BM will destroy FI then she'd beat Kaidou which would eliminate his connection to Wano, wasted story with previous world building behind it no? Or Kaidou wins then BM wouldn't destroy FI like you keep saying, but "it never said who'd destroy it" right? Then why keep bringing up losing the story line whre BM destroys FI if she falls now?

And you keep mentioning side characters importance, but what big opponent, whose defeat progressed the story, was beaten by a side character without Luffy being around? I'm not saying there aren't any, but I can't remember any right now. Can you?

I'm just confused as to what exactly it is you keep referring to when you say how much we'll lose because you're not really expanding on it. I've explained some routes the story could still take if BM fell but what progression would come from a Yonkou beating another Yonkou that wouldn't come from her falling now?

Lastly, her falling now doesn't stop the possibility of Kaidou coming to her for Caesar, it in fact could be the method in which he finds out Caesar's location when word of the incident spreads. So even all of the side story your bringing up could still be played.

 

[Punk Hazard]

I know I said I was done but we both knew that wouldn't last. I;m not gonna address all this bit by bit either I just wanna ask one thing since I don't remember you actually answering it when I asked and you keep bringing up "wasting side characters"

So I'm curious who is this army of side characters that would be getting wasted if BM is defeated at this wedding by Luffy and the assembly of others there? BM wouldn't be wasted. Kaidou wouldn't be wasted since he'll have a role in Wano. The Vinsmokes won't be wasted since they'll live and can be incorporated into the SHGF. Capone won't be wasted since he's making moves but those moves won't mean anything if Kaidou shows up. The only thing I really see being "wasted" is the altercation between BM and Kaidou.

When I say the importance of side characters, I am talking about their role in general. I am NOT talking about this specific storyline. When you say "Luffy has to be the one to defeat the Emperors," then you essentially say that Luffy has to do all of the important shit. You leave no room for characters like the Supernova, the Gorosei, the Emperors, etc. You're reducing them to nothing more than tools for Luffy's story, when that's not all they are.

And you keep mentioning side characters importance, but what big opponent, whose defeat progressed the story, was beaten by a side character without Luffy being around? I'm not saying there aren't any, but I can't remember any right now. Can you?

Have you not been reading? Have you missed the numerous parts where Dannie and I said it'd be something new? The hell is wrong with you people.

I'm fine with Luffy being there as the other characters retain their importance. IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE, that scenario doesn't exactly apply. This would be closer to Teach and Blackbeard fighting on Banaro, or Aokiji and Akainu fighting each other.

I'm just confused as to what exactly it is you keep referring to when you say how much we'll lose because you're not really expanding on it. I've explained some routes the story could still take if BM fell but what progression would come from a Yonkou beating another Yonkou that wouldn't come from her falling now?

Answered this in my previous reply to you.

Lastly, her falling now doesn't stop the possibility of Kaidou coming to her for Caesar, it in fact could be the method in which he finds out Caesar's location when word of the incident spreads. So even all of the side story your bringing up could still be played.

Her falling now vs her falling against Kaido diminishes the impact of her falling against Kaido. If Big Mom is already out of the picture, there's no reason to be invested in Kaido fighting her.

 

[LBeezy]

When I say the importance of side characters, I am talking about their role in general. I am NOT talking about this specific storyline. When you say "Luffy has to be the one to defeat the Emperors," then you essentially say that Luffy has to do all of the important shit. You leave no room for characters like the Supernova,

Luffy and Capone are Supernova's..?.. do you read One Piece? Or just skim through to look at the pictures?

the Gorosei, the Emperors, etc.

The Gorosei have never taken down a Yonko in the history of the manga, yet you want them to take down Big Mom?? Ha.

The Yonko themselves RARELY fight eachother.. it's much more logical for pirates who fall "under" them on the seas to try and fight them and take them down.

Etc.? Eh? Can you name another character then who fits under "Etc." that would be better off taking Big Mom down rather than the characters who are on WCI at the moment?!?

I'll wait....

You're reducing them to nothing more than tools for Luffy's story, when that's not all they are.



Have you not been reading? Have you missed the numerous parts where Dannie and I said it'd be something new? The hell is wrong with you people.

"Something new" ? Lmfaoooo

Yet you're the one saying WE can't provide any reasons as to why it would be good writing for Big Mom to be defeated this arc by the characters in play atm..

Lol you're funny bro.

Your "argument" in this "debate" has turned to shit.. fear not though Riker, we'll still be friends with you even after Big Mom gets her ass kicked this arc and you still read One Piece and comment in this section.. we will have no ill will towards you, for we understand that you do not know what you're saying.

I'm fine with Luffy being there as the other characters retain their importance. IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE, that scenario doesn't exactly apply.

HOW DOES IT NOT APPLY IN THIS CASE?!?!?

Your first sentence in that quote is exactly what we've been saying this whole time.. yet it doesn't apply? Why?

This would be closer to Teach and Blackbeard fighting on Banaro, or Aokiji and Akainu fighting each other.

What?

How?

Teach vs Blackbeard??

Wtf... you mean Ace?

Aokiji and Akainu??

What do these fights have to do with Big Mom and AAALLLLL of the characters on WCI right now?

Her falling now vs her falling against Kaido diminishes the impact of her falling against Kaido. If Big Mom is already out of the picture, there's no reason to be invested in Kaido fighting her.

Why in the world does Kaido vs Big Mom sound better to you people than Luffy and the rest of the characters on WCI vs Big Mom?!?!?

I just don't get it..

This arc and the fight we want to happen has been built up by Oda literally 100 times more than any version of Big Mom Vs Kaido.

How bitter will you lot be if Luffy and the others fight Big Mom this arc? Within the next upcoming chapters.. will you guys stop reading?? Will you Punch the screen?? Will you kill someone??? You better not try to kill Oda or I'll have to stop you guys.. for real.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Luffy and Capone are Supernova's..?.. do you read One Piece? Or just skim through to look at the pictures?

Did you even read what I said?

The Gorosei have never taken down a Yonko in the history of the manga, yet you want them to take down Big Mom?? Ha.

...What? No seriously, are you reading my post? I said that argument boils down to "If it's important, it has to be Luffy." I'm saying that's a flawed argument because it leaves little room for characters like the Gorosei to do things that are important to the story without needing Luffy to be around for it. Which is a waste. I never said the Gorosei have to defeat Big Mom. I even say like two sentences earlier that I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE BIG MOM STORYLINE and you STILL took it to mean I was talking about the Big Mom storyline? Your head on straight?

The Yonko themselves RARELY fight eachother.. it's much more logical for pirates who fall "under" them on the seas to try and fight them and take them down.

Kaido has already shown himself to be willing to fight Emperors based solely on impulse and opportunity. Big Mom has shown her creedo to be that she will never negotiate on what she wants unless those negotiations leads to something she wants even more. Kaido has shown and stated to be ruthless and not willing to listen when it comes to what he wants most. And both them are in getting in the way of what the other wants more. There is no reason for this not to be one of these rare Emperor vs Emperor moments. There is nothing about this situation that wouldn't make this fight worth happening for either of them, considering both of their number one dreams are on the line.

Etc.? Eh? Can you name another character then who fits under "Etc." that would be better off taking Big Mom down rather than the characters who are on WCI at the moment?!?

You're ****ing dumb. I know it's ad hominem, but I honestly don't know what else to say. I'm genuinely surprised that you read that post and didn't comprehend half of it.

When I say the importance of side characters, I am talking about their role in general. I am NOT talking about this specific storyline. When you say "Luffy has to be the one to defeat the Emperors," then you essentially say that Luffy has to do all of the important shit. You leave no room for characters like the Supernova, the Gorosei, the Emperors, etc.

Like, could I have it made it anymore clear?

"Something new" ? Lmfaoooo

Yet you're the one saying WE can't provide any reasons as to why it would be good writing for Big Mom to be defeated this arc by the characters in play atm..

Lol you're funny bro.

Your "argument" in this "debate" has turned to shit.. fear not though Riker, we'll still be friends with you even after Big Mom gets her ass kicked this arc and you still read One Piece and comment in this section.. we will have no ill will towards, for we understand that you do not know what you're saying.

When have we ever seen exactly this before in the One Piece story? When have we ever seen two separate storylines slowly converge more and more over the course of several years until the point where they collide, pitting two of the most important characters together? We have never seen a storyline in One Piece before where two prominent figures clash because of their pursuit of the Strawhats.

I don't know if you're trying to say that it's not new, or if it being new isn't a good enough reason for it to happen. If it's the former, I direct you to above. If it's the latter, are you serious? Are you trying to argue that an author introducing a new formula and element to their story isn't a good thing? We've seen Luffy rush in and beat the bad guy for 20 straight years, and you're saying that a deviance from this formula not something that Oda should do more of? The last and first time Oda did a deviance from this formula, by the way, was MARINEFORD. And you're saying that Oda should NEVER do something like Marineford again because Marineford was disappointing and not good to you, I guess?

HOW DOES IT NOT APPLY IN THIS CASE?!?!?

Your first sentence in that quote is exactly what we've been saying this whole time.. yet it doesn't apply? Why?

You do realize...actually no, given your previous "ability" to understand what you're reading, you don't realize and I have to spell it out for you. When i said "It doesn't apply in this case," I am talking about the fact that I am fine with the concept of Luffy taking down the Emperors along with other key players. I did not say that Luffy being able to take down an Emperor with the help of other key players is what doesn't apply here, that by itself is not inherently bad.

HOWEVER, in this particular case of Big Mom, me being comfortable with that concept doesn't apply because there is another concept that has just as much potential to happen that is much better writing and that I am also very comfortable with seeing happen. Do I have to elaborate on that further, or does that clear it up for you?

What?

How?

Teach vs Blackbeard??

Wtf... you mean Ace?

Yes I meant Ace, good job, Sherlock.

Aokiji and Akainu??

What do these fights have to do with Big Mom and AAALLLLL of the characters on WCI right now?

When I say the importance of side characters, I am talking about their role in general. I am NOT talking about this specific storyline. When you say "Luffy has to be the one to defeat the Emperors," then you essentially say that Luffy has to do all of the important shit. You leave no room for characters like the Supernova, the Gorosei, the Emperors, etc.

Why in the world does Kaido vs Big Mom sound better to you people than Luffy and the rest of the characters on WCI vs Big Mom?!?!?

I just don't get it..

It's been explained tons of times but a summary, it's the combination of these facts.

1. It would be something new, as we have never had a storyline where two opposing forces that normally wouldn't clash end up clashing as a result of the Strawhats actions. The alternative is simply the same cliche that we have seen for 20 years.

2. It would reinforce the path and theme Oda has taken of the world of One Piece being just as substantial as the Strawhats. It's not simply the world as the Strawhats experience that exists only as a vehicle for them, but it's also its own entity. To say that the only thing that's important is Luffy beating the guy is to reduce an expansive world to nothing more than a vehicle for Luffy, which is not the case of the manga thus far.

3. It would bypass the BS main character "Must win" trope.

4. It would reinforce the fact that major characters in the One Piece world don't exist only to accompany Luffy along the Luffy Show. They are just as much a part of this world, and a good way to reinforce that would be for other characters to accomplish pivotal, world-shaking changes in the world without needing Luffy to carry it on his back.

Luffy defeating Big Mom, even with help right now, does not offer all of this.

This arc and the fight we want to happen has been built up by Oda literally 100 times more than any version of Big Mom Vs Kaido.

No it hasn't. Luffy vs Big Mom has been built up because of one conversation of Luffy and Big Mom arguing about candy and this current arc. A collision of Kaido vs Big Mom started to get built back in Thriller Bark when Big Mom's daughter was introduced in the same arc that we first heard of Kaido in.

It was built up back in Thriller Bark when a major plot point was a wedding of Big Mom's daughter.

It was built back in Marineford when Kaido's subordinate Doflamingo was tasked with killing Moriah.

It was built up when Oda revealed that Big Mom and Moriah have powers that operate on the same concept.

It was built up when Oda had Luffy reveal Gear Fourth against Kaido's top subordinate, a form that resembles Nightmare Luffy, in a chapter where the cover page was the picnic with Zombies, with zombies being revealed as a species in the same arc that Big Mom's daughter debuted in where the enemy was Moriah, a man associated with Kaido and later attacked by Doflamingo, Kaido's top subordinate.

How bitter will you lot be if Luffy and the others fight Big Mom this arc? Within the next upcoming chapters.. will you guys stop reading?? Will you Punch the screen?? Will you kill someone??? You better not try to kill Oda or I'll have to stop you guys.. for real.

You know how stupid you sound by trying to make being disappointed in inferior storytelling from an author capable of superior storytelling sound like a bad thing?

 

[LBeezy]

Did you even read what I said?

Yes.

...What? No seriously, are you reading my post?

Yes.

I said that argument boils down to "If it's important, it has to be Luffy." I'm saying that's a flawed argument because it leaves little room for characters like the Gorosei to do things that are important to the story without needing Luffy to be around for it. Which is a waste. I never said the Gorosei have to defeat Big Mom. I even say like two sentences earlier that I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE BIG MOM STORYLINE and you STILL took it to mean I was talking about the Big Mom storyline? Your head on straight?

I'm sorry. Let me apologize for not quite realizing that you branched off and started discussing other things in the One Piece world.. I genuinely thought we were discussing the whole entire Big Mom situation..

So my bad bro.

Kaido has already shown himself to be willing to fight Emperors based solely on impulse and opportunity. Big Mom has shown her creedo to be that she will never negotiate on what she wants unless those negotiations leads to something she wants even more. Kaido has shown and stated to be ruthless and not willing to listen when it comes to what he wants most. And both them are in getting in the way of what the other wants more. There is no reason for this not to be one of these rare Emperor vs Emperor moments. There is nothing about this situation that wouldn't make this fight worth happening for either of them, considering both of their number one dreams are on the line.

I see what you're saying and I respect your point of view..

But I'm just looking at what other characters have to gain from defeating Big Mom or defeating Kaido.

The characters on WCI at the moment.

And the characters we met on Zou / the characters going to Wano / the characters on Wano.

And of course any Supernova with ties to these Yonko.

IMO, them defeating Big Mom and Kaido outweighs Big Mom and Kaido fighting eachother, when it comes to plot significance and character development.

You're ****ing dumb.

Woah woah woah bro.. what the heck man?? That's not nice.

Not nice at all.

I know it's ad hominem, but I honestly don't know what else to say. I'm genuinely surprised that you read that post and didn't comprehend half of it.



Like, could I have it made it anymore clear?

Yes.

Honestly yes.

When have we ever seen exactly this before in the One Piece story? When have we ever seen two separate storylines slowly converge more and more over the course of several years until the point where they collide, pitting two of the most important characters together? We have never seen a storyline in One Piece before where two prominent figures clash because of their pursuit of the Strawhats.

I don't know if you're trying to say that it's not new, or if it being new isn't a good enough reason for it to happen. If it's the former, I direct you to above. If it's the latter, are you serious? Are you trying to argue that an author introducing a new formula and element to their story isn't a good thing?

I have to stop you right here for a moment and say what's on my mind.

Please read this and let this sink in.

I agree with what you just said. (When speaking about it in general)

But not Kaido vs Big Mom specifically.

If it's something else, okay cool.. I like the idea of an author doing something new.. always.. especially if it's better than what the readers are expecting.

But this is not the case for your Big Mom Vs Kaido "theory".. I do not see Kaido fighting Big Mom being a better scenario than the characters who are on WCI right now fighting Big Mom.

I'm sorry.

Nor does it sound better to me, than Kaido hearing how the same pirate involved in taking down Doflamingo and messing up the SMILE production, just took part in bringing down a fellow Yonko Big Mom. Who hasn't been beaten in years..

This IMO would be a nice build up for Kaido and Luffy's interaction.

Not to mention, Big Mom has been around since Roger's time.. I feel as though it would be much better for the story if some pirates from the new generation are responsible for bringing an end to this old ***** and her long lasting era in piracy.

It would also cause a lot more stir and commotion to the rest of the world, rather than Kaido (the world's strongest Creature) being the one to defeat her.. why? Because that wouldn't sound too crazy or surprising if KAIDO does it. But if the world finds out it was Luffy and Capone or Jinbei or the Germa 66 or whoever plays the biggest role in helping Luffy defeat her, shortly after Law and Luffy did what they did in Dressrosa... man.. the world would be going crazy!

The other Supernova.. the Marines.. the WG! The Celestial Dragons.. the people meeting at the REVERIE!! Imagine they find out that Luffy and co. defeated The Yonko Big Mom DURING the Reverie!!! Oh man that would be epic af..

We've seen Luffy rush in and beat the bad guy for 20 straight years, and you're saying that a deviance from this formula not something that Oda should do more of? The last and first time Oda did a deviance from this formula, by the way, was MARINEFORD. And you're saying that Oda should NEVER do something like Marineford again because Marineford was disappointing and not good to you, I guess?

I'm not saying this at all.

Read above please.

Or better yet, I'll repeat myself.. I would definitely enjoy an Author/Mangaka doing something new and refreshing.

And I most certainly enjoyed MF.. loved it actually..

Kaido vs Big Mom is not something I would enjoy.

It would be horrible. And a huge waste of building up that has lasted for arcs, starting at the beginning of the timeskip when they entered the New World.

Plain and simple.

I hope you can understand what I just said bro.

You do realize...actually no, given your previous "ability" to understand what you're reading, you don't realize and I have to spell it out for you. When i said "It doesn't apply in this case," I am talking about the fact that I am fine with the concept of Luffy taking down the Emperors along with other key players. I did not say that Luffy being able to take down an Emperor with the help of other key players is what doesn't apply here, that by itself is not inherently bad.

HOWEVER, in this particular case of Big Mom, me being comfortable with that concept doesn't apply because there is another concept that has just as much potential to happen that is much better writing and that I am also very comfortable with seeing happen. Do I have to elaborate on that further, or does that clear it up for you?

No, you definitely cleared things up a lot with this post.. I'm sorry for not quite catching it all before..

This is your opinion and I can respect it as just that.

But it doesn't change my opinion or how I feel about the storyline so far..

It's been explained tons of times but a summary, it's the combination of these facts.

1. It would be something new, as we have never had a storyline where two opposing forces that normally wouldn't clash end up clashing as a result of the Strawhats actions. The alternative is simply the same cliche that we have seen for 20 years.

2. It would reinforce the path and theme Oda has taken of the world of One Piece being just as substantial as the Strawhats. It's not simply the world as the Strawhats experience that exists only as a vehicle for them, but it's also its own entity. To say that the only thing that's important is Luffy beating the guy is to reduce an expansive world to nothing more than a vehicle for Luffy, which is not the case of the manga thus far.

3. It would bypass the BS main character "Must win" trope.

4. It would reinforce the fact that major characters in the One Piece world don't exist only to accompany Luffy along the Luffy Show. They are just as much a part of this world, and a good way to reinforce that would be for other characters to accomplish pivotal, world-shaking changes in the world without needing Luffy to carry it on his back.

Luffy defeating Big Mom, even with help right now, does not offer all of this.



No it hasn't. Luffy vs Big Mom has been built up because of one conversation of Luffy and Big Mom arguing about candy and this current arc. A collision of Kaido vs Big Mom started to get built back in Thriller Bark when Big Mom's daughter was introduced in the same arc that we first heard of Kaido in.

It was built up back in Thriller Bark when a major plot point was a wedding of Big Mom's daughter.

It was built back in Marineford when Kaido's subordinate Doflamingo was tasked with killing Moriah.

It was built up when Oda revealed that Big Mom and Moriah have powers that operate on the same concept.

It was built up when Oda had Luffy reveal Gear Fourth against Kaido's top subordinate, a form that resembles Nightmare Luffy, in a chapter where the cover page was the picnic with Zombies, with zombies being revealed as a species in the same arc that Big Mom's daughter debuted in where the enemy was Moriah, a man associated with Kaido and later attacked by Doflamingo, Kaido's top subordinate.




You know how stupid you sound by trying to make being disappointed in inferior storytelling from an author capable of superior storytelling sound like a bad thing?

The build up of Luffy vs Big Mom that Oda really made > your own minds creation of a "build up" for Kaido vs Big Mom that isn't really there, that isn't really what Oda has been creating.


Sorry bro..

 

[Mystikk]

Well I guess One Piece just isn't for you then. Never too late to pick up some Fairy Tail.

I love where the story is right now.. its you and your boy band who want the story to be changed so itll fit your brain.

 

[Punk Hazard]

I see what you're saying and I respect your point of view..

But I'm just looking at what other characters have to gain from defeating Big Mom or defeating Kaido.

The characters on WCI at the moment.

What do they gain that wouldn't be gained from Big Mom falling to Kaido's hand?

And the characters we met on Zou / the characters going to Wano / the characters on Wano.

And of course any Supernova with ties to these Yonko.

IMO, them defeating Big Mom and Kaido outweighs Big Mom and Kaido fighting eachother, when it comes to plot significance and character development.

How so? If you're referring to push as Chopstick tried to argue before, they can still get that push my way as well with more. Not only that, but I'm advocating for Kaido to take out Big Mom, not for Kaido to fall as well during this clash. Meaning the Strawhats can still lead a charge with their alliance to Kaido after he falls Big Mom and get that same push.

I have to stop you right here for a moment and say what's on my mind.

Please read this and let this sink in.

I agree with what you just said. (When speaking about it in general)

But not Kaido vs Big Mom specifically.

If it's something else, okay cool.. I like the idea of an author doing something new.. always.. especially if it's better than what the readers are expecting.

But this is not the case for your Big Mom Vs Kaido "theory".. I do not see Kaido fighting Big Mom being a better scenario than the characters who are on WCI right now fighting Big Mom.

And Kaido vs Luffy is better, how?

I'm sorry.

Nor does it sound better to me, than Kaido hearing how the same pirate involved in taking down Doflamingo and messing up the SMILE production, just took part in bringing down a fellow Yonko Big Mom. Who hasn't been beaten in years..

This IMO would be a nice build up for Kaido and Luffy's interaction.

Why does Kaido and Luffy's interaction need that build up? Luffy toppled the most important part of Kaido's plan for his ultimate goal. In One Piece, a person's dream is everything, to the point that losing it is a faith worse than death. So what is there left to build up between Kaido's and Luffy's interaction beyond Luffy royally ****ing with Kaido's dream, which he has already done?

Not to mention, Big Mom has been around since Roger's time.. I feel as though it would be much better for the story if some pirates from the new generation are responsible for bringing an end to this old ***** and her long lasting era in piracy.

Considering that Roger said long ago that she'd have toppled Kaido and Whitebeard if Lola didn't bail, it's safe to say that Kaido is from the same ballpark as Big Mom.

Not to mention that the newer generation(Strawhats and Novas) would still be responsible as catalysts for Big Mom's fall even if Kaido is the one to physically do it, so that is accomplished anyways with my way.

It would also cause a lot more stir and commotion to the rest of the world, rather than Kaido (the world's strongest Creature) being the one to defeat her.. why? Because that wouldn't sound too crazy or surprising if KAIDO does it.

It would actually. As you said before yourself, Emperors rarely fight. Meaning that when they do, it's guaranteed to sound crazy and surprising to the world. When the report came in that Kaido and Shanks crossed paths, the World Government panicked, just like they did when Shanks and Whitebeard crossed paths. So for one Emperor to actually take down another Emperor, imagine how much shock and craze that would create when two Emperors just crossing paths already creates panic and is considered one of the worst possible scenarios.

The build up of Luffy vs Big Mom that Oda really made > your own minds creation of a "build up" for Kaido vs Big Mom that isn't really there, that isn't really what Oda has been creating.

None of those things are in my mind though. All of those things are things that factually happened in the manga.

 

[LBeezy]

What do they gain that wouldn't be gained from Big Mom falling to Kaido's hand?

I'm sure you got your answer once you read further down my post..

How so? If you're referring to push as Chopstick tried to argue before, they can still get that push my way as well with more. Not only that, but I'm advocating for Kaido to take out Big Mom, not for Kaido to fall as well during this clash. Meaning the Strawhats can still lead a charge with their alliance to Kaido after he falls Big Mom and get that same push.



And Kaido vs Luffy is better, how?

What does Kaido vs Luffy have to do with this? Other than the fact that if Luffy kicks Big Mom's ass then it'll be even more build up for Luffy's first meeting with Kaido..

Why does Kaido and Luffy's interaction need that build up?

I never said it "needed" that extra build up.. I'm just saying that it's way more epic that way, rather than when being compared to Kaido defeating Big Mom after Luffy "ran away from her"..

Luffy toppled the most important part of Kaido's plan for his ultimate goal. In One Piece, a person's dream is everything, to the point that losing it is a faith worse than death. So what is there left to build up between Kaido's and Luffy's interaction beyond Luffy royally ****ing with Kaido's dream, which he has already done?

Like I said, just more build up..

It doesn't "need" it.. but it sure is going to be epic af the more build up that's added by Oda on the way to them finally meeting.

Considering that Roger said long ago that she'd have toppled Kaido and Whitebeard if Lola didn't bail,

Roger said this?

Where? / what manga scan does he say this?

I'm sorry if my memory is bad and he actually said this, I just can't remember reading Rodger saying anything about Big Mom at all.. we hardly get dialogue from Roger in the flashbacks..

it's safe to say that Kaido is from the same ballpark as Big Mom.

The World's Strongest Creature? Same ballpark as Big Mom?

Nah.. not in my opinion.

Not to mention that the newer generation(Strawhats and Novas) would still be responsible as catalysts for Big Mom's fall even if Kaido is the one to physically do it, so that is accomplished anyways with my way.

Not the same impact on the world.. at all.

It would actually. As you said before yourself, Emperors rarely fight. Meaning that when they do, it's guaranteed to sound crazy and surprising to the world. When the report came in that Kaido and Shanks crossed paths, the World Government panicked, just like they did when Shanks and Whitebeard crossed paths. So for one Emperor to actually take down another Emperor, imagine how much shock and craze that would create when two Emperors just crossing paths already creates panic and is considered one of the worst possible scenarios.

It still can't compare to how the world would see it if Luffy (with help from others) defeated Big Mom.. especially how soon it would be right after what happened on Dressrosa.. the world heard about that.. imagine this..

And I promise you that if this news is confirmed at the same time that the Reverie is being held, Oda will make some legendary moments happen bro.

Imagine the people at the Reverie in the middle of talking about Dragon or Blackbeard or Kaido or even the Strawhats or something when all of a sudden a den den mushi reports that Big Mom has fallen to the likes of Mugiwara Luffy and his friends..

Holy fk.. that would provide some epic ass manga scans..

 

[Skull Knight]

Imagine the people at the Reverie in the middle of talking about Dragon or Blackbeard or Kaido or even the Strawhats or something when all of a sudden a den den mushi reports that Big Mom has fallen to the likes of Mugiwara Luffy and his friends..

Holy fk.. that would provide some epic ass manga scans..

If that happens Akainu would be like F**k the meeting. Dragons kid is rastling my jimbos, let's send every f***in marine behind SHs

 

[chopstickchakra]

What do they gain that wouldn't be gained from Big Mom falling to Kaido's hand?

I like how you try to flip my question to you without ever offering what does Kaidou beating BM get us that Luffy and co. beating her at WCI wouldn't. If Kaidou beats BM then all of Capones previous moves are for naught. A supernova will lose out on the chance to gain the notoriety of defeating a yonkou. The vinsmokes would more than likely lose any reason to return to the story, talk about wasting a character, let's introduce Sanji's family this arc then drop them from the manga. If Kaidou goes to WCI during the wedding while Zoro and co are already on their way to Wano how big of a role will he get to play in Wano? Would you like more?

How so? If you're referring to push as Chopstick tried to argue before, they can still get that push my way as well with more. Not only that, but I'm advocating for Kaido to take out Big Mom, not for Kaido to fall as well during this clash. Meaning the Strawhats can still lead a charge with their alliance to Kaido after he falls Big Mom and get that same push.

So if you're advocating that Kaidou would eliminate BM in this scneario then what happens to your scenario that BM would destroy FMI? Your scenarios are starting to contradict themselves. And what kind of push would a side character like Capone get that would compare to being part of the force that toppled a Yonkou exactly because you never did actually explain that, rather you just stated he could still get a push as if it was a fact but don't explain and equivalent push he'd receive.

And Kaido vs Luffy is better, how?

I love your dedication to talk about people not understanding others stances and strawhatting then doing this. Bravo. It's been said repeatedly the Yonkou fights wouldn't be 1v1 so it wouldn't be Luffy vs Kaidou. Luffy would be involved in Kaidous defeat but it wouldn't be only him just like it wasn't only him on Doffy and it won't be only him on BM(if it happens) Also Kaidou vs Luffy(and co.) would be good because it would build off of the crews fight with Oars that showed they're teamwork is able to break the body of a massive famous pirate, but you'd like that parallel to be thrown away in favor of the parallels you're more focused on right?

Why does Kaido and Luffy's interaction need that build up? Luffy toppled the most important part of Kaido's plan for his ultimate goal. In One Piece, a person's dream is everything, to the point that losing it is a faith worse than death. So what is there left to build up between Kaido's and Luffy's interaction beyond Luffy royally ****ing with Kaido's dream, which he has already done?

Oh I forgot, Kaidou's so pissed at Luffy about DR. That's why he cursed his name and said he'll start a war to shake the ages. Right, I forgot about that. Oh wait, he didn't even acknowledge Luffy yet.

Considering that Roger said long ago that she'd have toppled Kaido and Whitebeard if Lola didn't bail, it's safe to say that Kaido is from the same ballpark as Big Mom.

Roger never said that, she said it.

Not to mention that the newer generation(Strawhats and Novas) would still be responsible as catalysts for Big Mom's fall even if Kaido is the one to physically do it, so that is accomplished anyways with my way.

You don't get credit as a catalyst when you're out-shined by two Yonkou clashing and one falling because of that clash. You know that's not how it'd work. Few people care about the why they care about the how.

It would actually. As you said before yourself, Emperors rarely fight. Meaning that when they do, it's guaranteed to sound crazy and surprising to the world. When the report came in that Kaido and Shanks crossed paths, the World Government panicked, just like they did when Shanks and Whitebeard crossed paths. So for one Emperor to actually take down another Emperor, imagine how much shock and craze that would create when two Emperors just crossing paths already creates panic and is considered one of the worst possible scenarios.

No ones saying it wouldn't create shock but it would be more expected than an apparent Nova alliance actually succeeding in defeating a Yonkou. So if it's more expected than the alternative than the alternative would produce a bigger shock factor.

None of those things are in my mind though. All of those things are things that factually happened in the manga.

Yes they happened but I'm pretty sure his point was the connection and ground work between BM and Luffy was deeper than the groundwork between BM and Kaidou. Which I agree, BM/Kaidou has one core build up, Caesar. BM/Luffy has multiple; FMI, the box, the wedding, a friends life(Jinbei) BM/Luffy seems to have more behind it than Kaidou/BM.

 

[chopstickchakra]

If that happens Akainu would be like F**k the meeting. Dragons kid is rastling my jimbos, let's send every f***in marine behind SHs

If it actually happened like that and Akainu was there and the Revs appear like everyone thinks they will I'd be willing to bet Akainu would just attack Dragon out of anger.

They're all sitting there, Dragon walks in, Akainu gets pissed but stays calm then the report comes in and "rahhh" lol

 

[Lord Snow]

Amazing chapter. So Straw Hats vs Big mom. I don't see them winning but a fight starting and we will get to see what big is really capable in a fight but some how Straw hats will get away. I have a feeling the Vinsmokes will have to team up with them and somehow find a way to get away from big mom. Idky I have a feeling that Blackbeard will show up.

 

[Dannie]

How bitter will you lot be if Luffy and the others fight Big Mom this arc? Within the next upcoming chapters.. will you guys stop reading?? Will you Punch the screen?? Will you kill someone??? You better not try to kill Oda or I'll have to stop you guys.. for real.

Lmao, LBeezy my man. Just because we are trying to look at other ways for how this could all turn out does not mean we will get angry if Luffy ends up fighting Big Mam, which he most likely will, but it will not be on a full scale like you want it to be.

Oda has been letting Luffy fight the main enemy since the beginning of One Piece, so I'm not sure why you think we would be upset about Oda's original formula when we have seen him do it time and time again.

It seems more like you guys will be angry and start punching the screen if Luffy doesn't end up fighting Big Mam, given how ya'll keep on trying to push the notion of Luffy fighting BM so much as if no one else can fight her but Luffy, and neglecting any other possible way for how BM can be defeated makes me think you are the ones who will be upset.

You know what would be funny? Is if Oda actually does go the way we have been saying and Luffy doesn't end up defeating her. Man, I'm gonna laugh so ****ing hard if that happens.

 

[Punk Hazard]

What does Kaido vs Luffy have to do with this? Other than the fact that if Luffy kicks Big Mom's ass then it'll be even more build up for Luffy's first meeting with Kaido..

Probably meant Luffy vs Big Mom.

I never said it "needed" that extra build up.. I'm just saying that it's way more epic that way, rather than when being compared to Kaido defeating Big Mom after Luffy "ran away from her"..

Like I said, just more build up..

It doesn't "need" it.. but it sure is going to be epic af the more build up that's added by Oda on the way to them finally meeting.

It's already going to be epic. Building up Kaido vs Luffy by having Luffy defeat Big Mom, which makes no sense, isn't any kind of build up at all. Luffy threw a major wrench into Kaido's dream. Something like "Luffy took down Big Mom" isn't going to add anything substantial. Especially when Luffy is only going to defeat her with help anyways if it's going to happen and make sense.

Roger said this?

Where? / what manga scan does he say this?

I'm sorry if my memory is bad and he actually said this, I just can't remember reading Rodger saying anything about Big Mom at all.. we hardly get dialogue from Roger in the flashbacks..

It was like 2 AM when I wrote that post, sorry. I meant Big Mom said that.

The World's Strongest Creature? Same ballpark as Big Mom?

Nah.. not in my opinion.

Talking about period of being a pirate, not strength.

Not the same impact on the world.. at all.

You're bugging. Two Emperors taking each other out would have just as much as impact as a recent rookie taking out an Emperor. We've seen this from the fact that two Emperors crossing paths is enough to cause a panic in the World Government. Two key components of the Balance of Three disturbing that balance has more impact than an outside force disturbing that balance.

Spoiler

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It still can't compare to how the world would see it if Luffy (with help from others) defeated Big Mom.. especially how soon it would be right after what happened on Dressrosa.. the world heard about that.. imagine this..

They can have the same reaction by learning that Luffy and the other Novas were the catalyst for causing two Emperors to clash. Luffy was by far one of the least significant figures at Marineford in terms of the actual fights and events that happened there, and yet the world still reacted very strongly to him, so we're guaranteed a strong reaction even if Luffy doesn't directly cause Big Mom to fall.

And I promise you that if this news is confirmed at the same time that the Reverie is being held, Oda will make some legendary moments happen bro.

Imagine the people at the Reverie in the middle of talking about Dragon or Blackbeard or Kaido or even the Strawhats or something when all of a sudden a den den mushi reports that Big Mom has fallen to the likes of Mugiwara Luffy and his friends..

Same as before. We can have this same news and reaction for something as simple as the Strawhats ****ing up Whole Cake as they escape, or about causing a clash between Kaido and Big Mom.

I like how you try to flip my question to you without ever offering what does Kaidou beating BM get us that Luffy and co. beating her at WCI wouldn't.

I did answer this. Multiple times. Go reread my previous replies to you.

If Kaidou beats BM then all of Capones previous moves are for naught. A supernova will lose out on the chance to gain the notoriety of defeating a yonkou.

There's still notoriety for causing two Emperors to clash, a rare and catastrophic event we've never seen in the manga thus far. We've already seen Luffy rushes in and beat big bad guy he shouldn't, the fact that this is something completely new for the manga, and that it's a deviant from a cliche is worth Capone getting a little less notoriety until later on.

The vinsmokes would more than likely lose any reason to return to the story, talk about wasting a character, let's introduce Sanji's family this arc then drop them from the manga.

And what exactly would they stay for if Luffy and co. defeat Big Mom this arc? If your answer is for them to join up with Luffy as part of his grand fleet, they can still do that in the storyline I proposed, so I don't see how this storyline wastes them.

In fact, if the Strawhats have both Big Mom and Kaido hunting them, it's even more reason for the Vinsmoke to loan their power to Luffy's fleet than if just Kaido was chasing them. If we know that Luffy can handle Big Mom with some of his crew and a couple of allies, then Big Mom loses all tension as an enemy.

If Kaidou goes to WCI during the wedding while Zoro and co are already on their way to Wano how big of a role will he get to play in Wano? Would you like more?

Who said he has to go to the wedding in this storyline for it to work? I don't remember when it got twisted down to this, but the storyline Dannie, Love Cook and I vouched for is the Strawhats causing chaos and rebellion on Whole Cake and using it to escape, while Zoro and Law's team causes trouble in Wano against Kaido and pull a similar stunt. Then, after Luffy's two teams reunite, Kaido and Big Mom both come looking for them and cross paths, clashing with Kaido coming out on top and then contuining after the Strawhats for Caesar and to punish them for dismantling his plans, and then falling to the efforts of Strawhats+allies.

So if you're advocating that Kaidou would eliminate BM in this scneario then what happens to your scenario that BM would destroy FMI?

My scenario of what?

And what kind of push would a side character like Capone get that would compare to being part of the force that toppled a Yonkou exactly because you never did actually explain that, rather you just stated he could still get a push as if it was a fact but don't explain and equivalent push he'd receive.

Are you serious? The Strawhats got a major bounty and infamy boost for things like Dressrosa, Sabaody, Alabasta, etc. for causing major trouble, not just defeating strong people. Word gets out that Capone was involved with throwing Big Mom's base into chaos and causing two Emperors to clash would still generate push.

I love your dedication to talk about people not understanding others stances and strawhatting then doing this. Bravo. It's been said repeatedly the Yonkou fights wouldn't be 1v1 so it wouldn't be Luffy vs Kaidou. Luffy would be involved in Kaidous defeat but it wouldn't be only him just like it wasn't only him on Doffy and it won't be only him on BM(if it happens)

Yeah, you're still not understanding. If Luffy takes out Kaido and Big Mom, it's going to be in one of two ways:

1. Luffy does it 1 vs 1

2. Luffy does it with help.

I'm simply addressing both of these potential ways for it to happen, since no specific way was given. I've already said the concept of the second one is fine with me because it still maintains side character importance. There are levels to this shit, there's multiple arguments happening here at once. Me arguing against Luffy doing everything important himself and me arguing against Big Mom falling at Whole Cake are two separate arguments, though related. If you aren't saying the former, then why the **** would that argument be towards you?

Also Kaidou vs Luffy(and co.) would be good because it would build off of the crews fight with Oars that showed they're teamwork is able to break the body of a massive famous pirate, but you'd like that parallel to be thrown away in favor of the parallels you're more focused on right?

Addressed when I clarified the storyline above. This still happens in the storyline we proposed.

Oh I forgot, Kaidou's so pissed at Luffy about DR. That's why he cursed his name and said he'll start a war to shake the ages. Right, I forgot about that. Oh wait, he didn't even acknowledge Luffy yet.

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He fully intends to kill Luffy and Law, and he's acknowledged what they've done to him.

You don't get credit as a catalyst when you're out-shined by two Yonkou clashing and one falling because of that clash. You know that's not how it'd work. Few people care about the why they care about the how.

That's not at all true, since Luffy still received credit for causing the jailbreak at Impel Down, including the one that Teach staged to get his crew.

No ones saying it wouldn't create shock but it would be more expected than an apparent Nova alliance actually succeeding in defeating a Yonkou. So if it's more expected than the alternative than the alternative would produce a bigger shock factor.

How would it? Everyone knows that the typical formula for the New World is for pirates to either try to topple over an Emperor or join under them. When Kid saw an alliance between Luffy and Law had formed, he immediately and correctly figured out that they were teaming up to take down an Emperor. That IS expected. What isn't expected is two Emperors fighting because it rarely happens. A Nova that's been causing trouble for the past three years going after an Emperor is just status quo.

Yes they happened but I'm pretty sure his point was the connection and ground work between BM and Luffy was deeper than the groundwork between BM and Kaidou.

1. Like what?

2. You do realize my storyline has Kaido, Big Mom, and Luffy as the three central figures(four if you include Caesar). Any groundwork you suggest for Big Mom and Luffy just adds to the intersection of Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom and Caesar. It doesn't add to two separate storylines of Luffy, Kaido, Caesar/Luffy, Big Mom, Caesar.

Which I agree, BM/Kaidou has one core build up, Caesar. BM/Luffy has multiple; FMI, the box, the wedding, a friends life(Jinbei) BM/Luffy seems to have more behind it than Kaidou/BM.

Good job ignoring all of the connections I pointed out between Big Mom and Kaido's storylines. Funny how I brought up more and you just so happened to ignore them all at the same time : )

 

[GrapeApe]

Big Mom is about to deliever a thorough beating. Oda plot shield: Now Loading. Good chapter though, I'll be back for the next.

 

[Skull Knight]

Spoiler

Lmao, LBeezy my man. Just because we are trying to look at other ways for how this could all turn out does not mean we will get angry if Luffy ends up fighting Big Mam, which he most likely will, but it will not be on a full scale like you want it to be.

Oda has been letting Luffy fight the main enemy since the beginning of One Piece, so I'm not sure why you think we would be upset about Oda's original formula when we have seen him do it time and time again.

It seems more like you guys will be angry and start punching the screen if Luffy doesn't end up fighting Big Mam, given how ya'll keep on trying to push the notion of Luffy fighting BM so much as if no one else can fight her but Luffy, and neglecting any other possible way for how BM can be defeated makes me think you are the ones who will be upset.

You know what would be funny? Is if Oda actually does go the way we have been saying and Luffy doesn't end up defeating her. Man, I'm gonna laugh so ****ing hard if that happens

U know na that if BM isn't defeated in this arc then we will see a clash between 3 Yonko crew(Kaido, BM & Marco), 2Shichibukai(Weeble,Law), 9supernovas(Law, Luffy, Kid, Drake, Apoo, Hawkins, Capone, Zoro & that masked guy) and most probably some marines and samurais will be also involved). Dont u think it will be too much considering there will be another war(once OP is found)????

 

[Mystikk]

I like how you try to flip my question to you without ever offering what does Kaidou beating BM get us that Luffy and co. beating her at WCI wouldn't. If Kaidou beats BM then all of Capones previous moves are for naught. A supernova will lose out on the chance to gain the notoriety of defeating a yonkou. The vinsmokes would more than likely lose any reason to return to the story, talk about wasting a character, let's introduce Sanji's family this arc then drop them from the manga. If Kaidou goes to WCI during the wedding while Zoro and co are already on their way to Wano how big of a role will he get to play in Wano? Would you like more?




So if you're advocating that Kaidou would eliminate BM in this scneario then what happens to your scenario that BM would destroy FMI? Your scenarios are starting to contradict themselves. And what kind of push would a side character like Capone get that would compare to being part of the force that toppled a Yonkou exactly because you never did actually explain that, rather you just stated he could still get a push as if it was a fact but don't explain and equivalent push he'd receive.





I love your dedication to talk about people not understanding others stances and strawhatting then doing this. Bravo. It's been said repeatedly the Yonkou fights wouldn't be 1v1 so it wouldn't be Luffy vs Kaidou. Luffy would be involved in Kaidous defeat but it wouldn't be only him just like it wasn't only him on Doffy and it won't be only him on BM(if it happens) Also Kaidou vs Luffy(and co.) would be good because it would build off of the crews fight with Oars that showed they're teamwork is able to break the body of a massive famous pirate, but you'd like that parallel to be thrown away in favor of the parallels you're more focused on right?



Oh I forgot, Kaidou's so pissed at Luffy about DR. That's why he cursed his name and said he'll start a war to shake the ages. Right, I forgot about that. Oh wait, he didn't even acknowledge Luffy yet.




Roger never said that, she said it.



You don't get credit as a catalyst when you're out-shined by two Yonkou clashing and one falling because of that clash. You know that's not how it'd work. Few people care about the why they care about the how.




No ones saying it wouldn't create shock but it would be more expected than an apparent Nova alliance actually succeeding in defeating a Yonkou. So if it's more expected than the alternative than the alternative would produce a bigger shock factor.



Yes they happened but I'm pretty sure his point was the connection and ground work between BM and Luffy was deeper than the groundwork between BM and Kaidou. Which I agree, BM/Kaidou has one core build up, Caesar. BM/Luffy has multiple; FMI, the box, the wedding, a friends life(Jinbei) BM/Luffy seems to have more behind it than Kaidou/BM.

Chopstick does it again with perfect reasoning, real onepiece fan in here with comon sense.

The buildup between luffy vs bm has much more relevance than kaido vs bm, whose only real connections are them both being yonkou, and mayyyyybbee ceasar.

Just bigmom taking sanji hostage was more then enough build up for a luffy &co. Vs bigmom but Riker's and cooks too misguided by each others judgement to comprehend the manga lol.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I did answer this. Multiple times. Go reread my previous replies to you.

Repeatedly saying story lines and world building could be lost doesn't explain what story lines or world building would be lost.

There's still notoriety for causing two Emperors to clash, a rare and catastrophic event we've never seen in the manga thus far. We've already seen Luffy rushes in and beat big bad guy he shouldn't, the fact that this is something completely new for the manga, and that it's a deviant from a cliche is worth Capone getting a little less notoriety until later on.

And what exactly would they stay for if Luffy and co. defeat Big Mom this arc? If your answer is for them to join up with Luffy as part of his grand fleet, they can still do that in the storyline I proposed, so I don't see how this storyline wastes them.

They could, they could in any scenario but in yours it's far less likely because A. they wouldn't get to be impressed with Sanji and sway their opinions of him by him being part of the group that saves their lives and beats BM(which is more than likely to happen at the pace we're going) B. They wouldn't owe anything to the SH's so there'd be no chance of a sense of debt that may force them to join. In your scenario there's no real reason they'd stay after escaping the present danger. If Sanji and his captain help free them from their current fate they're much more likely to ally with him later.

In fact, if the Strawhats have both Big Mom and Kaido hunting them, it's even more reason for the Vinsmoke to loan their power to Luffy's fleet than if just Kaido was chasing them. If we know that Luffy can handle Big Mom with some of his crew and a couple of allies, then Big Mom loses all tension as an enemy.[.quote]

Or it means she just got bested by a few outside factors converging at once and that day wasn't her day it happens. We've all already acknowledged Brook is an inherent advantage in this encounter, Nami still has the vivre card, between the two of them that's most of the foot soldiers left as a minor threat at best. We saw her power has something to do with fear so Luffy has another edge in a fight with her. Some people are just a bad match up for others, does Luffy being able to beat Enel because of a natural edge lessen Enel's strength?




Who said he has to go to the wedding in this storyline for it to work? I don't remember when it got twisted down to this, but the storyline Dannie, Love Cook and I vouched for is the Strawhats causing chaos and rebellion on Whole Cake and using it to escape, while Zoro and Law's team causes trouble in Wano against Kaido and pull a similar stunt. Then, after Luffy's two teams reunite, Kaido and Big Mom both come looking for them and cross paths, clashing with Kaido coming out on top and then contuining after the Strawhats for Caesar and to punish them for dismantling his plans, and then falling to the efforts of Strawhats+allies.


My scenario of what?

Are you serious? The Strawhats got a major bounty and infamy boost for things like Dressrosa, Sabaody, Alabasta, etc. for causing major trouble, not just defeating strong people. Word gets out that Capone was involved with throwing Big Mom's base into chaos and causing two Emperors to clash would still generate push.

Are you serious? SH's got a major boost from Dressrosa, you mean where Luffy was part of beating Doffy and freeing it's citizens and declared the savior of the country? Sabaody, where Luffy was involved in breaking up the auction house(not either of the two side characters who got dragged into it and hyped by affiliation mind you) and punching a celestial dragon and allying with Roger's first mate in front of an Admiral? Alabasta, where Luffy exposed a Shichibukai's corrupt actions and freed a country? Are you hearing yourself? Of course they got bounty increases for this, not one of those is an example of the Strawhats not causing the most trouble and still getting big bounty increases.

Yeah, you're still not understanding. If Luffy takes out Kaido and Big Mom, it's going to be in one of two ways:

1. Luffy does it 1 vs 1

2. Luffy does it with help.

I'm simply addressing both of these potential ways for it to happen, since no specific way was given. I've already said the concept of the second one is fine with me because it still maintains side character importance. There are levels to this shit, there's multiple arguments happening here at once. Me arguing against Luffy doing everything important himself and me arguing against Big Mom falling at Whole Cake are two separate arguments, though related. If you aren't saying the former, then why the **** would that argument be towards you?

And I've said I'm not arguing for the 1v1 way or the Luffy and the SH's are the only ones allowed involved in the big moments side. I'm arguing that Luffy will(most likely and imo should) be involved in all of those moments though. Actually not even all the big moments really mostly just the Yonkou or obstacles that progress the story to Raftel. If another Supernova gets beat I don't think Luffy needs to be there or an Admiral like Kidd and Aokiji respectively.

Addressed when I clarified the storyline above. This still happens in the storyline we proposed.

He fully intends to kill Luffy and Law, and he's acknowledged what they've done to him.

That doesn't show that he's after them that shows that when he finds them he'll kill them. He shows them no level of respect in those scans. Even his crew acknowledged he was talking drunk too so we'll see how determined he is to get revenge on Luffy and Law when we see him sober. You were talking as if he's sailing around right now looking to find Luffy and Law and that scan doesn't suggest that.

That's not at all true, since Luffy still received credit for causing the jailbreak at Impel Down, including the one that Teach staged to get his crew.

Luffy instigated the prison break. Teach's trickery didn't outshine Luffy's smash and grab. How do you even find this example comparable to what we're talking about? And if Kaidou doesn't come to the wedding to take out BM then how does Luffy act as the catalyst?

How would it? Everyone knows that the typical formula for the New World is for pirates to either try to topple over an Emperor or join under them. When Kid saw an alliance between Luffy and Law had formed, he immediately and correctly figured out that they were teaming up to take down an Emperor. That IS expected. What isn't expected is two Emperors fighting because it rarely happens. A Nova that's been causing trouble for the past three years going after an Emperor is just status quo.

Right, TRY. Until now no one's dethroned a Yonkou. Many have tried but none have. The event would be unprecedented. Yonkous have already beaten each other. Kaidou alone has lost mutiple times to the other Yonkou. WB and Roger used to fight as they were called rivals/equals. Yonkou battles may be less common now but they're still more familiar within the OP history then one being toppled by someone other than a Yonkou or the Marines.

1. Like what?

2. You do realize my storyline has Kaido, Big Mom, and Luffy as the three central figures(four if you include Caesar). Any groundwork you suggest for Big Mom and Luffy just adds to the intersection of Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom and Caesar. It doesn't add to two separate storylines of Luffy, Kaido, Caesar/Luffy, Big Mom, Caesar.

Good job ignoring all of the connections I pointed out between Big Mom and Kaido's storylines. Funny how I brought up more and you just so happened to ignore them all at the same time : )

You're connections are Caesar and BM's fighting style matches Moriah's who has a grudge against Kaido. What other connections am I missing? Last time I checked 4 was more than 2.