Kisame vs Minato

[LuckyMan]

What? I'm sorry but where did you ever get the idea that Jiraiya needs Ma and Pa to gather nature energy from him? The reason Jiraiya is called an "imperfect sage" is that he cannot control nature energy 100%, meaning he retains some froglike physical characteristics.

So someone like Minato who controls it 100% with no frog-like physical characteristics is not a perfect sage?

He can still go into Sage Mode by himself perfectly fine, by remaining immobile. Jiraiya prefers to use Sage Mode with Ma and Pa because they can continuously gather nature energy for him while he is free to move. Jiraiya has a closer relationship to the toads of Mount Myoboku than Minato, there's no reason to believe Minato can insta-summon them when Jiraiya went through a ritual to do so.

The whole purpose of the Frog's sage mode is to use it with Ma+Pa. They were going to fuse with Naruto as well to keep gathering energy for him but Kurama kicked them out of his chakra system and Naruto could not fuse with them. Like I said, summoning jutsu is still summoning jutsu. He can summon them like any other toad.

Minato's sage mode is also by no means perfect. He even admitted it himself.

Having a perfect Sage Mode entering Sage Mode with no frog like appearances. Which Minato has shown already.

Lastly, Sage Mode has nothing to do with actually summoning Ma or Pa. Jiraiya entered Sage Mode AFTER summoning Ma and Pa, not before. Minato would be doing the same.

I never said it did, I was merely speculating that because Jman is not a perfect sage it could have been complications in summoning them, I said myself thats probably not true anyway though.

Genjutsu affects the six paths of pain like it would affect any other person. The bodies still can see, hear, smell, touch, taste etc. Your claim that "frog genjutsu is so powerful it affects something that is immune to genjutsu" makes no sense. We simply haven't seen any other genjutsu used on the six paths of Pain. That doesn't make Frog Song an ultra powerful super-genjutsu. If you think the paths of pain are immune to genjutsu, then explain how frog song affected them with an argument other than "frog song is super powerful" because that makes no sense. Tayuya's flute genjutsu almost gg'd EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi, yet Part I Shikamaru broke out of it. Just because it worked against a stronger opponent doesn't mean it will work against a different one.

Therefore, Frog Song is just a normal genjutsu and Samehada can break Kisame out of it like he would any genjutsu.

They have no nervous system man. :|

 

[Beans2]

So someone like Minato who controls it 100% with no frog-like physical characteristics is not a perfect sage?



The whole purpose of the Frog's sage mode is to use it with Ma+Pa. They were going to fuse with Naruto as well to keep gathering energy for him but Kurama kicked them out of his chakra system and Naruto could not fuse with them. Like I said, summoning jutsu is still summoning jutsu. He can summon them like any other toad.



Having a perfect Sage Mode entering Sage Mode with no frog like appearances. Which Minato has shown already.

I never said it did, I was merely speculating that because Jman is not a perfect sage it could have been complications in summoning them, I said myself thats probably not true anyway though.

P.S. You missed my Frog Sound post.

I know, I just saw your post and replied to it.
Regardless, there's nothing to support the idea that Minato can insta-summon Ma and Pa when Jiraiya can't.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Sennin Mode is never a factor when it comes to Minato.

He doesn't use it in battle. The only time he ever used it in a battle was when there was absolutely no way to damage Madara otherwise. Not to mention he can only hold it long enough to attack with Rasengan in combination with Hiriashin, he's also noted that it takes him to long to gather Natural Energy in the middle of battle.​

​

 

[LuckyMan]

Sennin Mode is never a factor when it comes to Minato.

He doesn't use it in battle. The only time he ever used it in a battle was when there was absolutely no way to damage Madara otherwise. Not to mention he can only hold it long enough to attack with Rasengan in combination with Hiriashin, he's also noted that it takes him to long to gather Natural Energy in the middle of battle.​

​

Or after getting both his arms removed he released it because it would be pointless to keep it going, he could no longer use jutsu................

Yes, he did say its takes too much time for him to gather the energy in battle, but thats what Ma+Pa is for. :|

I have to go, be back in an hour or 2 to finish this.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Change of mind; Minato digs a kunai into Kisame's eye socket once he finds out that normal slashes as rasengans don't work. Minato mid diff

 

[Kagustuchi]

Or after getting both his arms removed he released it because it would be pointless to keep it going, he could no longer use jutsu................

Yes, he did say its takes too much time for him to gather the energy in battle, but thats what Ma+Pa is for. :|

I have to go, be back in an hour or 2 to finish this.

Give me proof that he released it. Such a thing was never implied nor stated, in fact, directly after he says that he can't hold the form for any decent amount of time.​

​

 

[Gold Lightning]

Give me proof that he released it. Such a thing was never implied nor stated, in fact, directly after he says that he can't hold the form for any decent amount of time.​

​

Give proof that he ran out after Madara cut his arm?

We've seen Naruto deactivate his sage mode before. If minato cannot create seals then or weave sis with his hand then why would he stay in sage mode when he can no longer fight properly?

And it wasn't directly after? it was 2 chapters later.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Give proof that he ran out after Madara cut his arm?

We've seen Naruto deactivate his sage mode before. If minato cannot create seals then or weave sis with his hand then why would he stay in sage mode when he can no longer fight properly?

And it wasn't directly after? it was 2 chapters later.

Releasing Sennin Mode doesn't have any benefits, even if he couldn't attack normally he could have used Sensing. Not releasing the Mode has benefits while releasing it has none.

Chapters aren't relative to time. Not much transpired between Minato being repelled and Minato's statement.​

​

 

[Apêx1]

Lel, Minato's SM simply ran out. People trying to justify it is laughable, Minato himself stated he has little to no proficiency with SM, and it takes him long to use it/barely lasts in an actual fight. Yet.. People still say he can do it near instantly and use it for extended periods of times when no such thing was implied. #logic

 

[Gold Lightning]

Releasing Sennin Mode doesn't have any benefits, even if he couldn't attack normally he could have used Sensing. Not releasing the Mode has benefits while releasing it has none.

Chapters aren't relative to time. Not much transpired between Minato being repelled and Minato's statement.​

​

So no proof then, though so.

Someone else speculates something and you dismiss it, but hen you do the exact same thing but think that you're right .

Not much time? Obito fights Madara, removes a bit if Shukaka and Gyuki, then Kakashi assists Obito, Kakashi sends Naruto to kamui world, then Kakashi sends Obito to kamui world, then guy shows up and saves Kakashi, then Minato finally makes his statement in the next chapter after a but of talking. Psh, yeah right, hardly any time passed at all. Why don't you go get me that proof instead of asking others for proof.

 

[Kagustuchi]

So no proof then, though so.

Someone else speculates something and you dismiss it, but hen you do the exact same thing but think that you're right .

Not much time? Obito fights Madara, removes a bit if Shukaka and Gyuki, then Kakashi assists Obito, Kakashi sends Naruto to kamui world, then Kakashi sends Obito to kamui world, then guy shows up and saves Kakashi, then Minato finally makes his statement in the next chapter after a but of talking. Psh, yeah right, hardly any time passed at all. Why don't you go get me that proof instead of asking others for proof.

Your side is the one with no proof. You want it to that way because it benefits Minato, yet you can't state a single benefit that releaseing Sennin Mode would have. Money says you deflect and ignore this fact as well as opt for Ad Hominem instead.

Minato had no reason to release the Mode, yet he could have benefited from keeping it on.

---

Yea, that's not much time.​

​

 

[Apêx1]

Viz provided by BlinkST
Kakashi: "If I recall correctly...
...Senjutsu isn't your forte, master..."

Minato: "That's an understatement. It takes me too long to build up the chakra, plus I can't maintain it long.
I haven't used it much in real combat, either."

 

[Gold Lightning]

Your side is the one with no proof. You want it to that way because it benefits Minato, yet you can't state a single benefit that releaseing Sennin Mode would have. Money says you deflect and ignore this fact as well as opt for Ad Hominem instead.

Minato had no reason to release the Mode, yet he could have benefited from keeping.

---

Yea, that's not much time.​

​

He said he couldn't fight properly anymore because he had no arms, so there's your reason. Why would he maintain sage mode when he can't fight any longer, so it's pointless to maintain it. He couldn't fight Madara with 1 arm so obviously there's nothing else he could do with zero arms.

 

[Kagustuchi]

He said he couldn't fight properly anymore because he had no arms, so there's your reason. Why would he maintain sage mode when he can't fight any longer, so it's pointless to maintain it. He couldn't fight Madara with 1 arm so obviously there's nothing else he could do with zero arms.

Could have made use of Sensing.

Not to mention that once again, not being able to fight properly is even more reason to keep Sennin Mode activated. Why make yourself weaker when your already gimped. Keeping SM on had no detractors.​

​

 

[Apêx1]

I thought my Viz clarification would end this debate, lawl. "Can't maintain it for long" "takes me too long" 'Not his forte is an understatement' Kisame won't watch him take long periods of time to get into SM, that is all.

 

[Gold Lightning]

He said he couldn't fight properly anymore because he had no arms, so there's your reason. Why would he maintain sage mode when he can't fight any longer, so it's pointless to maintain it. He couldn't fight Madara with 1 arm so obviously there's nothing else he could do with zero arms.

Viz provided by BlinkST
Kakashi: "If I recall correctly...
...Senjutsu isn't your forte, master..."

Minato: "That's an understatement. It takes me too long to build up the chakra, plus I can't maintain it long.
I haven't used it much in real combat, either."

Yes, Fukasaku already established that after first teaching Naruto. He told Naruto the same thing, that sage mode can't be used in battle because it takes too long to build up the chakra and that it requires the user to be still. Fukasaku later explained how you'd either need a decoy to buy you some time or to retreat in order to gather senjutsu. It's like you people never read the sage training arc U_U that's just how senjutsu is.

Jiraya is even worse, he can't even enter the mode himself. Yet he still found a way to do it in battle, Naruto also figured out a way to prolong his sage mode in battle (with clones). The next stage in sage training is to fuse with Fukasaku, he planned to do that with Naruto but Kurama stopped him. It would've been the same thing with minato since obviously only Fukasaku trained minato.

Hence people bringing up the sage toad arguments. They're their to help sage toad users, those with toad contracts have access to all toads, both toad sages know minato and minato obviously trained with them. So summoning Fukasaku and Shima removes all those drawbacks, so I don't see the point in banging on about Minatos sage mode prowess. Oh and you saying he has little to no proficient with sage mode is bull, he wouldn't be a perfect sage if that was the case. And viz confirms he's used it in battle before.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Leave him alone Apex. He knows he's wrong.​

​

 

[Gold Lightning]

Could have made use of Sensing.

Not to mention that once again, not being able to fight properly is even more reason to keep Sennin Mode activated. Why make yourself weaker when your already gimped. Keeping SM on had no detractors.​

​

Sensing for what, pls explain???

Minato can already sense without sage mode U_U. He already sensed that Madara was stronger than Juubito. What else would minato be trying to sense?

Keeping sage mode on had no benefit to him whatsoever, no arms = no jutsu apart from FTG. Which he doesn't need sage mode for.

 

[sharingansennin]

Lel, Minato's SM simply ran out. People trying to justify it is laughable, Minato himself stated he has little to no proficiency with SM, and it takes him long to use it/barely lasts in an actual fight. Yet.. People still say he can do it near instantly and use it for extended periods of times when no such thing was implied. #logic

this is the truth, minato nuthuggers will disagree of course

 

[Kagustuchi]

Sensing for what, pls explain???

Minato can already sense without sage mode U_U. He already sensed that Madara was stronger than Juubito. What else would minato be trying to sense?

Keeping sage mode on had no benefit to him whatsoever, no arms = no jutsu apart from FTG. Which he doesn't need sage mode for.

His sensing is far inferior to that of a Sennin Mode user. On multiple occasions he's been taken off guard and wasn't able to sense while he was fighting Kuro Zetsu. Being able to sense properly and the added boost to stats could have made him more useful.

Keeping Sennin Mode on would have given him proper Sensing, increased strength, increased speed, and increased reactions. All of which would have been better to have than not or used to help with supporting Gai.​

​