[HT] Edo Itachi vs. Edo Minato

[BenjerminGaye]

Well, the poll calls a draw thus far so for now, it's being called a draw.

Unless someone can pull a comprehensive argument for one or the other.

Im not tryna go through the wank fest that is Waltz and his fancy font.

 

[EZQ]

Are there really 10 people who voted for Itachi? Minato takes a dunk on him.

Edit: I just read the match conditions. On what level is Itachi's PS? I guess its on EMS Sasuke's, which is on BM avatar level, so this is a close call, still leaning towards minato. If Itachi's PS is on madara's level then Itachi takes it.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Waltz: If we really take into account that Yata no Kagami can repel TBB, then you would be pretty much right. I have actually thought about it a lot, and if something as not so strong like Madaras Gunbai was able to absorb and redirect a miniature TBB, then something as big as Yata no Kagami could do the job.

But no one agrees to this, because it's ''no-limit-fallacy''.

So now Gunbai redirecting a palm sized BD means that Yata can reflect a BD that dwarfs Bijuu?

Anyone who would overlook Edo Itachi's potential to that extent must be a Minato fan. Unlimited use of Yata no Kagami and Totsuka no Tsurugi means that Minato has no chance of winning especially when Itachi creates Kagebunshin wielding these said weapons where one being a mirror would deflect Biju Dama as:

And the other being the Extendable Katana Totsuka which will be used to Seal Minato the moment he's under Itachi's Genjutsu as being an Edo Tenesi does not make him immune to Genjutsu [

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] and given the time differences between what takes place in Tsukuyomi and what takes place in the outer, physical world----That the events within Totsuka can occur for 24hrs or more while only a single second passes by in the physical world then Kurama would not be able to Snap Minato out in time. In another light to say that Itachi's route is a less effective Genjutsu which is more suitable for this Matchup such as Dusk Crow Genjutsu he can potentially control Kurama's unsealed Yin half with the Shainrgan by entering Minato's psyche. FTG against Susano'o is redundant because of the Inton energy properties that Make up Susnao'o. The redundancy lies in a few factors: Firstly, The portion of Susano'o Minato wishes to tag must be 'tangible' (Sasuke makes Susano'o ethereal to allow Zetsu to pass through it's defense [

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] just as he made it ethereal for Kakashi , Naruto and Sakura to phase though here [

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]). Which leaves sufficient interception: If the option of the Hirashin user is to use their actual bodies or that of a clones to have physical contact with Itachi's Susano'o then the Itachi could allow the desired point to become intangible and crush the Hirashin user via Susanoo's CQC abilities [

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] . Alternately, if Minato decides to use a Hirashin-Kunai; Susano'o could remain intangible to allow the Kunai to pass right through. Inton constantly changes. Something that should be obvious at this point; that, if Susano'o is destroyed it is re-composed by new Inton energy. If the Hirashin Mark was placed on the previously used Inton energy, then it evaporates along with it as it cannot be removed. If per say Susano'o is removed from Itachi via Hirashin ; it in no way secures victory as it can be instantaneously replenished. Tagging Itachi's Susano'o would not enable Minato to withdraw Itachi himself as once more, it is not [constantly] a chakra entity and one inevitably connected to the user as if this were the case, Gaara would not have been able to separate Madara from Susano'o. If a literal connection from the Susano'o to the user's chakra was mandatory for Susano'o to work then Madara would not have been able to control it's Katana's against the Shukaku while lacking the physical connection. Gamabunta and Co. are one shot by Amatearsu and what we have left is Chakra arms. The advantage Minato has however is the larger Chakra pool which is already compensated for by Itachi's phenomenal chakra control + Edo Tensei advantages. The battle only ends with him being caught by Itachi's Genjutsu and he's sealed with Totsuka.

​

Everything that was erased is something I already knew. Striked part is impossible. Being Edo Tensei only means that his chakra does not run out. Alive Itachi does not have the chakra to split between multiple clones and still use the highest level of his Susanoo. Then there's the fact that Yata and Totsuka aren't Susanoo weapons, so why would they be cloned when Itachi's clones use Susanoo? Doesn't make sense.

-Warping Susanoo is possible and nothing you are posting proves that wrong considering it being solid or ethereal doesn't change the fact that it is still touching Minato's chakra (Avatar) thus it's warped. Madara had to resort to Rinnegan after he was ripped from Susanoo, so there is no "instantaneous replenishing".

-Genjutsu is almost a non factor in high scale fights. Shown too many times in this Manga. How is Itachi even going to get to a range where he can force Genjutsu when Minato doesn't need to fight in his face or anywhere near it to obliterate him? The farther he is, the easier it is to fight while looking at Itachi, but not looking into his eyes.



The whole argument hinges on this Yata vs. BD business. I already know that you will continue to say Yata reflects all of Minato's attacks despite nothing but exaggerations being there for it's text. Hell, even if it could, Minato still wins due to his Hiraishin.

 

[Rιver]

Yata no Kagami can extend so... where is the problem?

 

[KidGamer65]

Yata no Kagami can extend so... where is the problem?

..........

Not even remotely close to understanding why you took size as the issue, when the obvious issue is power.

 

[Rιver]

..........

Not even remotely close to understanding why you took size as the issue, when the obvious issue is power.

Yeah this is what I meant. "No-limit-fallacy". No point arguing if you believe the power would be too much for Yata no Kagami to handle.

 

[Varrah]

I'm unsure whether or not I should take this thread seriously so here's a smiley drinking lean.​

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[KidGamer65]

Yeah this is what I meant. "No-limit-fallacy". No point arguing if you believe the power would be too much for Yata no Kagami to handle.

I'm just curious as to why you believe Yata can repel all attacks, or all of Minato's attacks. Don't complain about people not agreeing that Yata blocks all attacks when you yourself can't even come up with a real argument as to why you believe it blocks what you believe it blocks. :lol The irony kills me.

 

[Rιver]

I'm just curious as to why you believe Yata can repel all attacks, or all of Minato's attacks. Don't complain about people not agreeing that Yata blocks all attacks when you yourself can't even come up with a real argument as to why you believe it blocks what you believe it blocks. :lol The irony kills me.

Probably because canon manga stated this and Databook further explained what it does, how it does it and why it does it. I don't need an argument for obvious reason then. Just read the manga and Databook.

 

[KidGamer65]

Probably because canon manga stated this and Databook further explained what it does, how it does it and why it does it. I don't need an argument for obvious reason then. Just read the manga and Databook.

Lol I completely expected this.

So you are going to ignore the obvious exaggerations? :lol. If I used this logic I'd be running around here saying every exaggeration ever said in the Manga is 100% true. What's worse is that you are trying to use Yata's tech description in the DB as proof, even though it's actual description outside of all the hyperbole states nothing about blocking all attacks. It's funny how all other obvious exaggerations are rendered null, but when it comes to Yata, only Yata, people will agree that "it can repel every single attack". Smh.

But since it's clear you don't have a real argument, (not even sure where in the world you are going with that flawed Gunbai and Yata comparison) I'm not going to bother wasting my time replying to you.

 

[Red Slayer]

Edo-minato>Edo-Itachi>alive-minato(w/o-Bm)>alive-sick-Itachi

dunno-about-fanfic-Itachi-if-his-PS-is-on-Ems-Sasuke-lvl-he-loses

 

[Rιver]

Lol I completely expected this.

So you are going to ignore the obvious exaggerations? :lol. If I used this logic I'd be running around here saying every exaggeration ever said in the Manga is 100% true. What's worse is that you are trying to use Yata's tech description in the DB as proof, even though it's actual description outside of all the hyperbole states nothing about blocking all attacks. It's funny how all other obvious exaggerations are rendered null, but when it comes to Yata, only Yata, people will agree that "it can repel every single attack". Smh.

But since it's clear you don't have a real argument, (not even sure where in the world you are going with that flawed Gunbai and Yata comparison) I'm not going to bother wasting my time replying to you.

Thing is I'd listen to this if you actually had any proof. But you have zero proof and are being salty here with nothing else than "hurr durr hyperbole" argument although you haven't explained why it would be hyperbole and why we should take your words over Kishi's.

Unless you can come up with real evidence saying why Yata no Kagami's hype is hyperbole, then you shouldn't try to argue at all.

What's funny is that you say I have no argument but come disliking posts even though you're using own delusional "logic" while I am backed up by manga and Databook here.

Why should we listen your words over manga and Databook? That's the real question here for you to answer.

 

[Varrah]

Lol I completely expected this.

So you are going to ignore the obvious exaggerations? :lol. If I used this logic I'd be running around here saying every exaggeration ever said in the Manga is 100% true. What's worse is that you are trying to use Yata's tech description in the DB as proof, even though it's actual description outside of all the hyperbole states nothing about blocking all attacks. It's funny how all other obvious exaggerations are rendered null, but when it comes to Yata, only Yata, people will agree that "it can repel every single attack". Smh.

But since it's clear you don't have a real argument, (not even sure where in the world you are going with that flawed Gunbai and Yata comparison) I'm not going to bother wasting my time replying to you.

River's post is still an argument, KG.​

 

[Great Master Minato]

Thing is I'd listen to this if you actually had any proof. But you have zero proof and are being salty here with nothing else than "hurr durr hyperbole" argument although you haven't explained why it would be hyperbole and why we should take your words over Kishi's.

Unless you can come up with real evidence saying why Yata no Kagami's hype is hyperbole, then you shouldn't try to argue at all.

What's funny is that you say I have no argument but come disliking posts even though you're using own delusional "logic" while I am backed up by manga and Databook here.

Why should we listen your words over manga and Databook? That's the real question here for you to answer.

What are Yata's feats? tanking/reflecting some explosive Kunais? :lol

 

[Brooks]

What are Yata's feats? tanking/reflecting some explosive Kunais? :lol

Downplaying isn't going to help your argument you clown.​

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[Waltz]

Everything that was erased is something I already knew. Striked part is impossible. Being Edo Tensei only means that his chakra does not run out. Alive Itachi does not have the chakra to split between multiple clones and still use the highest level of his Susanoo.

That's a contradictory KG. If Itachi's Chakra cannot diminish then he has enough Chakra to split between the Bunshin. Based on the things a chronically sick Itachi was able to accomplish just before his death while tremendously low on chakra shows that his chakra control would compensate for the large pools you're suggesting is necessary. ​

Then there's the fact that Yata and Totsuka aren't Susanoo weapons, so why would they be cloned when Itachi's clones use Susanoo? Doesn't make sense.

Yata and Totsuka are weapons attached to Itachi's Susano'o. The clones are Itachi and therefore they have Itachi's Susano'o; If they have Itachi's Susano'o then Yata and Totsuka are weapons attached to it. ​

-Warping Susanoo is possible and nothing you are posting proves that wrong considering it being solid or ethereal doesn't change the fact that it is still touching Minato's chakra (Avatar) thus it's warped. Madara had to resort to Rinnegan after he was ripped from Susanoo, so there is no "instantaneous replenishing".

I completely agree with the bold [although I was never trying to disprove the idea]. Pertaining to the red actually it does and no it won't be in contact with Minato. When Susano'o become's ethereal as pure Inton energy it's actually intangible just as Genjutsu while in his mirage; an intangible form made from nothingness. Only when this Inton is supplied with Yoton [physical energy taken from the user] it gains a physical form.

Yin Release (陰遁, Inton) techniques, based on the spiritual energy that governs imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness.

Inton creates the illusionary image out of nothing from the imagination. It allows you to visibly show the concepts of your mind or at the least to manipulate someone else into seeing which is why Genjutsu cannot hurt someone, but only bring about a mental collapse.

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@ Underlined: You mean the Author made Madara resort to the Rin'negan to showcase an ability: Tengai Shinsei. Madara could have defeated all the Kage with the various version's of his Susano'o. It can be instantly replenished as long as the user has the means to do so Chakra wise.
​

-Genjutsu is almost a non factor in high scale fights. Shown too many times in this Manga. How is Itachi even going to get to a range where he can force Genjutsu when Minato doesn't need to fight in his face or anywhere near it to obliterate him? The farther he is, the easier it is to fight while looking at Itachi, but not looking into his eyes.

True but If Minato uses Hirashin to warp near Susano'o or Itachi it becomes close range. @Red: True but if each of Itachi's clones creates some said number of Karasu bunshin which fly away in all directions and then carefully intercept Minato from all directions while engaged in battle then the possibility arises. @Blue: I agree but then again Minato has no knowledge of Itachi's Genjutsu prowess so remaining in character there is a very high possibility that he will make close contact with Itachi or his bunshin's either via Hirashin or some other means. ​

The whole argument hinges on this Yata vs. BD business. I already know that you will continue to say Yata reflects all of Minato's attacks despite nothing but exaggerations being there for it's text. Hell, even if it could, Minato still wins due to his Hiraishin.

I agree with you to some extent that I really doubt the Mirror would stretch many times larger than Susano'o to deflect a large scale Biju Dama because it doesn't need to. The way Yata function's is that it guards the Susano'o and it's user from any offence. So if the Biju Dama makes impact it will simply defend the area occupied by Susano'o against any explosive force by repelling it away. ​

 

[KidGamer65]

Waltz, I'll reply in full tomorrow, but I'm curious. You've said that Susanoo is Inton many times, but how did you even come to that conclusion? It being an Uchiha's chakra isn't evidence that it's Inton.

 

[Great Master Minato]

Downplaying isn't going to help your argument you clown.​

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Aha & Hydra's headbutt is nowhere near a Bijuu Dama that dwarfs Bijuu.

 

[Lord Tywin]

I'm unsure whether or not I should take this thread seriously so here's a smiley drinking lean.​

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[Waltz]

Waltz, I'll reply in full tomorrow, but I'm curious. You've said that Susanoo is Inton many times, but how did you even come to that conclusion? It being an Uchiha's chakra isn't evidence that it's Inton.

The Uchiha's brain is saturated with Inton energy. Based on it's properties and in this context it can be utilized by the Sharingan via the optic nerve to project an illusionary image (Genjutsu) or forms created from nothingness such as Amaterasu and Susano'o. ​

Shinobi Well-Informed Record

Yin-Yang Release Techniques
The "origin's" properties are filled with great mysteries. The Yin-Yang Release techniques are analyzed here.

↓ Spiritual and physical energy. That is Yin-Yang Release.

"Yin Release", which...[...] the Uchiha Clan inherited Yin Release and the Senju Clan inherited Yang Release.

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As the skilled Inton user Gengetsu explained the form which is created has no connection to the physical world; it's intangible. Susano'o follows the same pattern however it becomes tangible by utilizing the energy which gives physical life and vitality to a form; Yōton, from within the users body.

"Yin Release", which creates form out of nothingness and "Yang Release", which breathes life into form.

​