Transcendence
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No problem man.
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Here's the theory. It's quite long, but nowhere near as long as the original Cogitation though.
[Theory] How can Naruto unlock rinnegan (unbiased theory)
- Thread starter Byron123
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No problem man.
Here's the theory. It's quite long, but nowhere near as long as the original Cogitation though.
adeshina365
Active member
Lets look at this issue from other perspectives:
- The Rinnegan's abilities are in complete contrast to Naruto's fighting style.
- If he obtained the Rinnegan on the battlefield, he would still have to learn how to use it.
- Both Naruto and Sasuke having doujutsu would break the parallel that has been established between them.
- Naruto looks pretty silly with a Rinnegan...
- The Rinnegan's abilities are in complete contrast to Naruto's fighting style.
- If he obtained the Rinnegan on the battlefield, he would still have to learn how to use it.
- Both Naruto and Sasuke having doujutsu would break the parallel that has been established between them.
- Naruto looks pretty silly with a Rinnegan...
Chakra is the moulding of Shintai Enerugī and Seishin Enerugī gained from exercise and experience. Hagoromo is the individual who discovered the mechanics of Chakra and how to manipulate it to actually cause an effect and then proceeded to teach his findings to the world along side his religion as Ninshū, the foundation of Ninjutsu. Simply having exorbitant amounts of Chakra doesn't equate to being omnipotent if there is no way to actually utilize the material.
Bryon123 said:
The Bijuu are the Jubi's Chakra. If the fruit was a little less potent in composition, it would still have given Kaguya some power. The Correlation does not match up with Naruto concerning the Chakra he received form the Biju as it did nothing to enhance his battle capability, power, ect. It's purpose was to extract that Biju from Obito. The Bijuu entrusted the power to dissect the Juubi to Naruto.
Bryon123 said:
Why the vague speculation? If we are to compare Madara currently to the world in Kaguya's time they would all be "fodder" compared to him. There is nothing canonically stressing on the extent of Kaguya's power.
Bryon123 said:
The Uchiha Stone Monument records that Hagoromo dissected the Juubi on his death bed and chose a successor which only imply's that his many creations and utilization of the Sword of Nunoboko occurred prior to that time. I would like to know your honest opinion on the matter, Byron123 . After witnessing Hagoromo wielding an Inyouton khakkhara while facing the Juubi as well as being a witness to what the Jubi is capable of while lacking the Hachibi and Kyuubi: do you actually think basic Ninjutsu, Sennin Modo and large chakra pools would be sufficient to stop the complete Juubi?
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Transcendence
Active member
1. No they are not. His multi-faceted clone fighting style is analogous to the use of Pein Paths and the combined fighting ability they possess.
2. That applies to anyone who first acquires an ability on the battlefield. Bijuu Modo? Juubi Jinchuriki? Happened right away for both Naruto and Obito and they went straight to work. Not to mention, should the combined chakra of the Bijuu's lead to the awakening of the Rinnegan, the SO6P will most likely appear and teach Naruto about the abilities (Not that he already knows them or anything....)
3. The Elder-Younger parallel? It doesn't apply to them. That applied to Hashirama and Madara exclusively given their direct connection to the two sons. Their exact wills mirror the sons. Naruto is not a Senju, and therefore is not paralleled to any sort of anti-dojutsu complex.
4. Not really. It's only the bad fan art that you see. Same applies to Sasuke when you see the fan art.
2. That applies to anyone who first acquires an ability on the battlefield. Bijuu Modo? Juubi Jinchuriki? Happened right away for both Naruto and Obito and they went straight to work. Not to mention, should the combined chakra of the Bijuu's lead to the awakening of the Rinnegan, the SO6P will most likely appear and teach Naruto about the abilities (Not that he already knows them or anything....)
3. The Elder-Younger parallel? It doesn't apply to them. That applied to Hashirama and Madara exclusively given their direct connection to the two sons. Their exact wills mirror the sons. Naruto is not a Senju, and therefore is not paralleled to any sort of anti-dojutsu complex.
4. Not really. It's only the bad fan art that you see. Same applies to Sasuke when you see the fan art.
adeshina365
Active member
I'm not seeing how clone-spam is analogous to the use of Pein Paths. Against strong opponents Naruto would produce uncountable amounts of clones as a means of overwhelming his opponents. This doesn't fit with how Nagato used his small number of paths (six) while synchronizing their abilities. Naruto's use of clones has always depended on brute force with a hint of trickery. On top of this, there is also the pattern of Naruto using less clones as he became more powerful. BM Naruto has hardly depended on the use of clones.
Furthermore, Naruto has always depended on the use of few techniques while employing variations to these techniques. This is in direct contrast to the multifaceted nature of the Rinnegan.
Bijuu mode is essentially a super charged version of KM with the ability to use large Bijuu bombs (something that Naruto trained for before); Kurama also aided him in this act and was helping Naruto throughout their first battle. Comparing this situation to Juubito also isn't correct. Obito likely already knew of the abilities that he would gain once becoming the Juubi's Jinchuriki. In addition, Obito was likely already familiar with the ying/yang nature of Onmyoudon since he already used jutsu like Izanagi.
With the Rinnegan Naruto would be entering a world of jutsu that he has zero experience with. Even Sasuke who has spent the better part of his life with his Sharingan didn't immediately adapt to the Mangekyou. And for Sasuke he already had experiences with Itachi performing MS jutsu (Sasuke is also arguably the fastest learner in the manga). Whether or not the Rikudo will show up is anyone's guess.
I'm not referring to the Elder-Younger son parallel, I'm referring to the Doujutsu vs. Bodily abilities parallel (not quite the same thing). Sasuke's powers have focused on either his eyes or enhancing them. Naruto's powers have focused on either his body or its enhancement. How exactly would it look if Naruto vs. Sasuke had Naruto using a superior Doujutsu (the thing that Sasuke prides himself on)?
I'll give you that.
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adeshina365
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I would also suggest that you read my thread
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. If my hypothesis is correct, then like Nagato, Naruto also won't be able to access the full capabilities of the Rinnegan.
Transcendence
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@adeshina365
Naruto's experience with the Rinnegan is relatively first hand. He's faced the Pein Paths extensively, seen the most secretive technique (Gedo: Rinne no Tensei) TWICE, and faced off against Nagato when in Edo form, where he was the only one who was deducing and giving intel to Itachi and Kirabi about Nagato's Rinnegan Paths. His experience with the Rinnegan would come from what he has faced and observed. I'm not saying he'll be a master at it right away, but to say he has no experience with it is illogical. Sasuke had less exposure to the Mangekyou at the time than Naruto has had with the Rinnegan. The only Mangekyou user he had faced off against or known of was Itachi. Naruto faced off against Pein, observed the abilities and their secrets, and then faced off against Nagato once more. His exposure to the Rinnegan overall exceeds Sasuke's initial Mangekyou knowledge overall. But you say Sasuke didn't immediately adapt to the Mangekyou? The moment he used it against Bee he was already using Enton: Kagutschi. He immediately adapted to it; as you may recall, he hadn't used it in the preliminary parts of the Bee fight, as he was engaging in CQC battle against the Hachibi Jinchuriki.
Naruto having a superior Dojutsu doesn't mean anything. What if Juugo were to be absorbed by Sasuke (which is a high possibility given that Juugo will do anything for Sasuke because of Kimmimaro's will) and Sasuke were to obtain the ability to passively absorb nature energy with nearly no end in sight like Kabuto? All his abilities amplified including Enton and Susano'o. It would be in the same context as Naruto awakening the Rinnegan. And with good merit too (But that is for another time and explanation)
I see your POV, but I can't say I necessarily agree. I wasn't implying that Naruto would continue to use a large amount of clones once he used the Rinnegan. The point is, Naruto's use of clones is analogous to the use of multiple bodies to use different techniques in the same context that Nagato used the Pein Paths outside of using his natural, unhealthy body. Naruto has used less clones in recent memory, that much is true, but his use of clones is unparalleled in the manga, and it stands to be told that utilizing the Rinnegan with clones, rather than corpses, would be the first positive use of the Rinnegan's Outer Path ability in the entire manga; as ever person nigh Rikudou (who we haven't seen yet) has used the Rinnegan for inexplicable and villainous reasons. As for your argument revolving around the synchronized use of the Paths; Naruto has done that with his clones in the past, utilizing other external factors, such as Kyuubi Chakra Modo and Sennin Modo in the fight context. In the Pein fight (Irony), he synchronized his fighting with his clones to bombard, and counter-act against the Peins. This use of his clones took out 3 Paths. Add in the Rinnegan (not necessarily in that particular fight, but in general) and he can use the same principle of synchronization with his clones, but this time with the Paths. The variation of his techniques contrasting the Rinnegan isn't really an argument, as that can be applied to both Obito (who possessed the Rinnegan) and Sasuke should the possibility of him awakening it arise. Sasuke's fighting style revolves around Enton for the most part, and since it emanates from his eyes, he wouldn't be able to use it should he awaken the Rinnegan; this further confirmed when Madara had to switch to his Eien No Mangekyou Sharingan to put Ei in a Genjutsu within the Gokage v Madara fight. Obito himself relied entirely on one technique in the manga, yet he possessed the Rinnegan. Variation in contrast to the Rinnegan is not an argument.
Bijuu Modo... I'll agree upon. I disagree with the assertion that because Obito knew the mechanics of Izanagi, that he could devise a way to seamlessly use Onmyoudon. Becoming the Jinchuriki of a God, and seamlessly using all its abilities and what it grants is what I would call a "Deus Ex Machina". Such power, and the wide array of abilities that Obito showcased couldn't simply be taught, and using Madara as a scapegoat for the teaching wouldn't apply, since nothing is hinting that on the tablet, was there any info on the powers of becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki. Furthermore, this would be something that Rikudou wouldn't want; a new Jinchuriki of the Juubi signifies that the Juubi had been revived once more, and would essentially cause endless turmoil/Armageddon like he predicted years ago. He wouldn't put that kind of knowledge on the tablet, since it is contradictory towards his original ideology, and it counter-intuitive to his initiative of peace.
Naruto's experience with the Rinnegan is relatively first hand. He's faced the Pein Paths extensively, seen the most secretive technique (Gedo: Rinne no Tensei) TWICE, and faced off against Nagato when in Edo form, where he was the only one who was deducing and giving intel to Itachi and Kirabi about Nagato's Rinnegan Paths. His experience with the Rinnegan would come from what he has faced and observed. I'm not saying he'll be a master at it right away, but to say he has no experience with it is illogical. Sasuke had less exposure to the Mangekyou at the time than Naruto has had with the Rinnegan. The only Mangekyou user he had faced off against or known of was Itachi. Naruto faced off against Pein, observed the abilities and their secrets, and then faced off against Nagato once more. His exposure to the Rinnegan overall exceeds Sasuke's initial Mangekyou knowledge overall. But you say Sasuke didn't immediately adapt to the Mangekyou? The moment he used it against Bee he was already using Enton: Kagutschi. He immediately adapted to it; as you may recall, he hadn't used it in the preliminary parts of the Bee fight, as he was engaging in CQC battle against the Hachibi Jinchuriki.
They are relatively the same thing. The Eyes-Body parallel that people seem to talk about endlessly as fact stems from Rikudou's sons through and through. The power parallels don't restrict them from gaining a "superior Dojutsu" or anything of the sort. If that applied, then Sasuke would have never had the Curse Mark at all, nor would he be compatible with Juugo's Senjutsu; which it is hinted that Sasuke will get the Curse Mark back, given Orochimaru's "studies" and Sasuke still not meeting his full potential (at one point having the Curse Mark would hint that it would be part of his full potential to amplify his overpowered Uchiha abilities). This being a body ability contradicts your use of the parallel. And Naruto's obvious parallel to Rikudou; the first user of the Rinnegan, denounces the parallel and his inability to use or obtain the Rinnegan, given that Rikudou himself had the Rinnegan.
Naruto having a superior Dojutsu doesn't mean anything. What if Juugo were to be absorbed by Sasuke (which is a high possibility given that Juugo will do anything for Sasuke because of Kimmimaro's will) and Sasuke were to obtain the ability to passively absorb nature energy with nearly no end in sight like Kabuto? All his abilities amplified including Enton and Susano'o. It would be in the same context as Naruto awakening the Rinnegan. And with good merit too (But that is for another time and explanation)
Can you post a specific panel that proves your theory? No. We neither can. We both do baseless assumptions. Also, the only reason why he split the Juubi and made the Chibaku Tensei Moon - Rinnegan tech at very old age is because, knowing that once he dies Juubi will strike the world once again, has decided to split it up and seal the empty shell into the moon. Logically, he might have tried his whole life to tame the Juubi, but seeing that he can't, he decided that, in order not to let it terrorize the world after his death, to split it and seal what remains. That's why he did it at old age, because he knew that he'd die sooner or later, and he had to do that last thing before he died.Can you post a specific panel which verifies what you say about the sage having the rinnegan while he was travelling to spread his religion?Unless, you have it, what you said about the sage is a baseless assumption. I agree that we can't tell for sure that the sage awoke it during his late days but the fact that what we know about his rinnegan techniques as well as the fact that he decided to divide Juubi at a very old, at a similar age to when Madara awoke his rinnegan, tends to show that just like Madara, the sage also awoke it at his late days. Ofc, this is only a logical argument, nothing is definite, it jsut can fit with what actually happened.
My theory is just as possible as yours. We both have baseless assumptions.
adeshina365
Active member
I'm short on time so proving a complete response to your post isn't possible for the time being.
I understand where you're coming from, but everything in your post makes the assumption that Naruto would use the abilities of the Rinnegan through separate paths. This was something that Nagato only did after becoming extremely frail and weak. It has already been shown that the Rinnegan's abilities are more powerful when they aren't spread about 6 paths.
I'd also like to reiterate the point that I don't think that Sasuke will get the Rinnegan either.
Unlike Sasuke who has had doujutsu for the majority of his life, using techniques in that manner is something that Naruto has never, ever done before.
I don't have the time to respond to this in full now, but thinking of Senjutsu energy as a bodily related power is highly flawed. Senjutsu involves balancing nature energy with physical AND spiritual energy; the latter is frequently forgotten. Spiritual energies are closely tied with doujutsu which an Uchiha like Sasuke has in copious quantities. BlinkST would be better able to respond to your post. The crux of it is that Senjutsu is not a body related power, but both a doujutsu and body related power. I'm thinking that we might find out that Senjutsu + EMS = Elder Son's Doujutsu.
With regards to Sasuke "absorbing" Juugo, I've responded to this in your thread from October:
I understand where you're coming from, but everything in your post makes the assumption that Naruto would use the abilities of the Rinnegan through separate paths. This was something that Nagato only did after becoming extremely frail and weak. It has already been shown that the Rinnegan's abilities are more powerful when they aren't spread about 6 paths.
I'd also like to reiterate the point that I don't think that Sasuke will get the Rinnegan either.
Facing the techniques has no barrings on Naruto's ability to preform them. This is especially the case for a doujutsu since it is a completely foreign concept to Naruto. It's simply not something that he has used before. Unlike Sasuke, he doesn't have a method for analyzing the workings of a technique. Sasuke's ability to copy jutu via his Sharingan definitely helped him pull of Amaterasu.
Unlike Sasuke who has had doujutsu for the majority of his life, using techniques in that manner is something that Naruto has never, ever done before.
With regards to Sasuke "absorbing" Juugo, I've responded to this in your thread from October:
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Again that's again you opinion about rinnegan being a complete necessity to learn chakra's mechanics, the same way teachers taught the other shinobi to use thheir chakra efficiently the same could have happened with him. Nothing is definite. Again, you say all these things about the correlation while they haven't been proven not a single time. It's completely your hypothesis. Also, did you remember how the Juubi can be revived in incomplete state? Why can't the same happen here as well? I didn't say to compare madara to kaguya's world but to her herself who would obviously be way stronger considering that she had eaten that fruit. As for Hagoromo, well technically Madara as well was about to die but once he unlocked the rinnegan, he summoned the gedo mazo and so he increased his life span for a long time. Being said that, even Hagoromo doesn't mean that he would necessary die at that exact moment and so yes he coud have time to create all these things you said. As for your last qestion, yes I do. We did so that now the SA and everyone had managed to land some hits on Juubi, cutting some of its tails, completely restraining its movements and they're not even close to Hagoromo's level. Furthermore, we don't talk about a person with just loads of chakra, we talk about a person whose mother had so much chakra to the point of becoming a living god and to that extent, Hagoromo could have been extremely powerful as well. Besides, you talk as if he had to KO the Juubi, I don't remember Obito having to reach itto its limits before he sealed inside of him. On the contrary, it was a very easy process.
Six Paths
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Have some rep for your kind words XD
KillebIsBeast
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KillebIsBeast
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[JUTSU][/JUTSU]
We will see coming up in the next couple episodes . The Bijuu have said several times that he is just like the old man. We will see .
NaraFanboy
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Let's get NaruHina and SasuKarin shippers in here.
Why can't they make rinnegans for their little babies?
#willoffireintohinata
Why can't they make rinnegans for their little babies?
#willoffireintohinata
adeshina365
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adeshina365
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Before gaining the chakra of the nine bijuu, Obito was surely on the verge of death:
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Yet he still didn't gain the Rinnegan in his other eye....
He wasn't restored until after gaining the Bijuu chakra...