Edo Tobirama vs KCM minato

[Holy God]

:| Come on now. Sharingan boosts the user's already existing reaction speed. By your logic, Minato, Ay, Tobirama, Naruto, etc can't have better reaction speed than: MS Sasuke, EMS Madara, MS Obito, MS Kakashi because "lol Sharingan". So yeah, that's very very very bad logic you are using there. Especially since Minato (who Tobirama is faster than) already physically reacted to Ay's max speed while Sasuke couldn't even follow him with Sharingan.

And the underlined doesn't even make sense. Strength is determined by many different variables while Speed is determined by 2 or 3 variables.

-Minato is stronger than Ay, yet Ay's reflexes are far ahead of his.
-KCM Naruto is stronger than Ay, yet Ay's reflexes are far ahead of his.
-Nagato is far stronger than Ay, Minato or Tobirama, yet their reflexes far surpass his.
-3rd Raikage is stronger than Ay, yet Ay's reflexes surpass his too.

And I could go on for paragraphs.

1. Obito's still.

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2. Obito dashes past them and rips them in half.

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3. Tobirama reveals he tagged Obito then.

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I did not state specifically that the Sharingan is absolute. It is physically impossible however for any regular person to have a better reaction than someone with a Mangekyou Sharingan. That is true. I stated however that it is only true if you had nohing to boost your own reactions. The characters you listed (except Naruto, assuming you're talking about his normal self) have advantages. Minato and Tobirama however can't actually react better. They physically can't, therefore they resort to teleportation, which only takes a thought. Minato can't dodge A straight on without prediction, and even then, just like Tobirama, he's only going to barely dodge depending on the distance or get hit.

Thank you for the references. This shows though that Tobirama cannot physically react as I stated above. He had to use a precaution and probably had his hand in a position to mark in case. Naruto and Sasuke's failure to react happened because literally no one expect Obito to come from where he did. You can't put Tobirama at a level so high because neither parties physically reacted well.

 

[Bogard]

Option1: For the smart guys

As someone repeatedly portrayed as the fastest shinobi, Minato eventually beats Tobirama in a battle of speed

Option2: For the retarded guys

As the guy with much more chakra, Minato spams clones and chakra arms+rasengan techniques to overwhelm Tobirama

Option3: For the lost ones

They remain lost

Not relevant when Tobirama can mentally react to it, and phisically too. Then use FTG. Infinite speed > Whatever speed Minato gets.

Based on what exactly? He has been clowned by SM Madara who is definitely slower than Minato

 

[KidGamer65]

I did not state specifically that the Sharingan is absolute. It is physically impossible however for any regular person to have a better reaction than someone with a Mangekyou Sharingan. That is true. I stated however that it is only true if you had nohing to boost your own reactions. The characters you listed (except Naruto, assuming you're talking about his normal self) have advantages. Minato and Tobirama however can't actually react better. They physically can't, therefore they resort to teleportation, which only takes a thought. Minato can't dodge A straight on without prediction, and even then, just like Tobirama, he's only going to barely dodge depending on the distance or get hit.

:lol Dude. What? Are you kidding me? I literally mention Minato physically reacting to V2 Ay while Sasuke couldn't even track him and then I post scans of Tobirama tagging Obito yet you are still going to push this ridiculous argument of "no regular person can have better reactions than a Sharingan user", when that literally makes no sense in itself. Sharingan does nothing but boost existing reaction speed. If Konohamaru gets Sharingan he's not going to physically react faster than Minato. If I were to agree with this logic, I'd be saying:

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All these fodder have better reflexes and reaction speed than Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, etc. I really really really hope that isn't what you think.

As for Minato vs. Ay:

-Minato has Kunai in hand, Ay charges at top speed.

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-Minato flicks Kunai above his head before teleporting.

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-Comes right back to it and tries to stab Ay.

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The bold is a physical reaction to Ay's top speed.

Thank you for the references. This shows though that Tobirama cannot physically react as I stated above. He had to use a precaution and probably had his hand in a position to mark in case. Naruto and Sasuke's failure to react happened because literally no one expect Obito to come from where he did. You can't put Tobirama at a level so high because neither parties physically reacted well.

Now you are just making stuff up.

1. Prove that he used any precaution.
2. Prove that his hand was in position to mark, not like that matters anyway since he still has to move in order to touch and mark Obito.
3. Prove that Tobirama expected Obito to charge him while Naruto and Sasuke didn't, cause they were literally in the same exact situation, so unless you think Tobirama has foresight this assertion doesn't even make sense.

It's hilarious how you are actually claiming that a scan of Tobirama physically reacting to Juubito proves that he can't physically react to Juubito. :lol

 

[Holy God]

:lol Dude. What? Are you kidding me? I literally mention Minato physically reacting to V2 Ay while Sasuke couldn't even track him and then I post scans of Tobirama tagging Obito yet you are still going to push this ridiculous argument of "no regular person can have better reactions than a Sharingan user", when that literally makes no sense in itself. Sharingan does nothing but boost existing reaction speed. If Konohamaru gets Sharingan he's not going to physically react faster than Minato. If I were to agree with this logic, I'd be saying:

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All these fodder have better reflexes and reaction speed than Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, etc. I really really really hope that isn't what you think.

If you can recall, the sentence directly after the one you referring to says that they are not normal and have things that help them react. Though I am attempting to specifically stick to physical reactions, which teleportation does not help.

As for Minato vs. Ay:

-Minato has Kunai in hand, Ay charges at top speed.

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-Minato flicks Kunai above his head before teleporting.

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-Comes right back to it and tries to stab Ay.

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The bold is a physical reaction to Ay's top speed.

That's not too impressive. He is shown pulling his head back in that middle page with stunned eyes, knowing he couldn't physically dodge. As I said, he physically cannot react in time therefore resorts to teleportation.

Now you are just making stuff up.

1. Prove that he used any precaution.
2. Prove that his hand was in position to mark, not like that matters anyway since he still has to move in order to touch and mark Obito.
3. Prove that Tobirama expected Obito to charge him while Naruto and Sasuke didn't, cause they were literally in the same exact situation, so unless you think Tobirama has foresight this assertion doesn't even make sense.

It's hilarious how you are actually claiming that a scan of Tobirama physically reacting to Juubito proves that he can't physically react to Juubito. :lol

They're valid assumptions. I cannot prove he was in the position just like you cannot prove he wasn't because every detail wasn't shown in order to feature it in a later chapter. To say Naruto and Sasuke expected Obito would be ludacris because he came from out from under the ground. Clearly no one is going to expect that. Either way, I'm not talking about reaction as in flinching and being able to make small movements, I'm talking about full dodging. We've been shown that Tobirama cannot dodge Obito and Minato cannot dodge A. Minato with a combination of the Flying Thunder God Technique and the sensing and speed upgrades from the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode make him far more agile and effective than Tobirama.

 

[KidGamer65]

If you can recall, the sentence directly after the one you referring to says that they are not normal and have things that help them react. Though I am attempting to specifically stick to physical reactions, which teleportation does not help.

Lol. That's exactly what we are talking about here. Do I have to define physical reaction? A physical reaction is them reacting to the incoming attack or stimulus with a physical movement of any kind. Not just evasion.


And don't dodge the question. Do you think those fodder Uchiha have better reaction speed than Minato and Tobirama and Hashirama? Yes or no? Simple question.

That's not too impressive. He is shown pulling his head back in that middle page with stunned eyes, knowing he couldn't physically dodge. As I said, he physically cannot react in time therefore resorts to teleportation.

Irrelevant. Irrelevant. Irrelevant. A physical reaction is a physical reaction. Whether or not he can outright dodge is irrelevant and whether or not you don't think it's impressive is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, Minato was capable of physically reacting to Ay's speed while Sasuke couldn't even track him. Thus Minato's physical and mental reaction speed>>Sasuke's. It doesn't get any simpler than this.

[They're valid assumptions. I cannot prove he was in the position just like you cannot prove he wasn't because every detail wasn't shown in order to feature it in a later chapter. To say Naruto and Sasuke expected Obito would be ludacris because he came from out from under the ground. Clearly no one is going to expect that. Either way, I'm not talking about reaction as in flinching and being able to make small movements, I'm talking about full dodging. We've been shown that Tobirama cannot dodge Obito and Minato cannot dodge A. Minato with a combination of the Flying Thunder God Technique and the sensing and speed upgrades from the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode make him far more agile and effective than Tobirama.

Lol. If this is what you are going to do then you can just stop now, cause I already know where this argument is headed. Tobirama stated that he put the mark on Obito last time he touched him. The only opportunity he had to touch him before then was when Obito charged him. Thus it happened before his body was ripped apart as he can't place a tag on Obito's right side when his right side has already been obliterated. Deductive reasoning is key pal. Unlike you I can actually back my assertions up with proof from the Manga. Nonsense like "he was prepared" "he was in position" are backed by what again? Oh yeah, nothing.

And

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clearly isn't underground.

As for the sized up text, it's all been addressed above. What you are talking about is irrelevant.

A: You said all Sharingan users will always have faster physical reaction speed than people who don't have any enhancements. I.E Tobirama, Minato, Hashirama, etc.

B: I said that's BS as Minato is capable of physically reacting to Ay's top speed and Tobirama was capable of reacting to Juubito's speed physically while your precious Sharingan user Sasuke was unable to follow Ay's speed.

A: You say, "oh lol but they didn't dodge so I'm still right"

B: Yet you are still ignoring the fact that them not being to dodge is irrelevant. They physically reacted, Sasuke did not. Thus they are faster than Sasuke when it comes to reaction speed. Physical and mental.

A: you say "oh lol, but since Tobirama can't dodge Obito and Minato can't dodge Ay, KCM Minato>Tobirama"

B: Even though everyone with a brain knows that your sentence doesn't connect together to prove your point. Tobirama reacted to Obito. Minato's best feat is being around two people who got blitzed by Obito. Do. The. Math. Guy.

Do I have to cite more examples for you to realize how idiotic the notion "all sharingan users surpass people with no enhancements in reaction speed" sounds? And now that I realize who exactly I'm arguing with, I'm not surprised at the ridiculous BS being spewed in your posts.

 

[Holy God]

Lol. That's exactly what we are talking about here. Do I have to define physical reaction? A physical reaction is them reacting to the incoming attack or stimulus with a physical movement of any kind. Not just evasion.


And don't dodge the question. Do you think those fodder Uchiha have better reaction speed than Minato and Tobirama and Hashirama? Yes or no? Simple question.



Irrelevant. Irrelevant. Irrelevant. A physical reaction is a physical reaction. Whether or not he can outright dodge is irrelevant and whether or not you don't think it's impressive is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, Minato was capable of physically reacting to Ay's speed while Sasuke couldn't even track him. Thus Minato's physical and mental reaction speed>>Sasuke's. It doesn't get any simpler than this.



Lol. If this is what you are going to do then you can just stop now, cause I already know where this argument is headed. Tobirama stated that he put the mark on Obito last time he touched him. The only opportunity he had to touch him before then was when Obito charged him. Thus it happened before his body was ripped apart as he can't place a tag on Obito's right side when his right side has already been obliterated. Deductive reasoning is key pal. Unlike you I can actually back my assertions up with proof from the Manga. Nonsense like "he was prepared" "he was in position" are backed by what again? Oh yeah, nothing.

And

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clearly isn't underground.

As for the sized up text, it's all been addressed above. What you are talking about is irrelevant.

A: You said all Sharingan users will always have faster physical reaction speed than people who don't have any enhancements. I.E Tobirama, Minato, Hashirama, etc.

B: I said that's BS as Minato is capable of physically reacting to Ay's top speed and Tobirama was capable of reacting to Juubito's speed physically while your precious Sharingan user Sasuke was unable to follow Ay's speed.

A: You say, "oh lol but they didn't dodge so I'm still right"

B: Yet you are still ignoring the fact that them not being to dodge is irrelevant. They physically reacted, Sasuke did not. Thus they are faster than Sasuke when it comes to reaction speed. Physical and mental.

A: you say "oh lol, but since Tobirama can't dodge Obito and Minato can't dodge Ay, KCM Minato>Tobirama"

B: Even though everyone with a brain knows that your sentence doesn't connect together to prove your point. Tobirama reacted to Obito. Minato's best feat is being around two people who got blitzed by Obito. Do. The. Math. Guy.

Do I have to cite more examples for you to realize how idiotic the notion "all sharingan users surpass people with no enhancements in reaction speed" sounds? And now that I realize who exactly I'm arguing with, I'm not surprised at the ridiculous BS being spewed in your posts.

With a Mangekyou Sharingan you are able to predict the movements of objects, therefore allowing one to react sooner and better, so yes, any Mangekyou Sharingan user is going to have better reactions than Hashirama (without Sage Mode), Tobirama, and Minato. The latter two might be able to escape through teleportation, but that does not solidify better reaction times as it only takes a slight thought. As for Obito being underground, I thought I remembered an image from above showing him as so, but I see now that he was closer to them then I thought. According to you however, they did react, as their eyes clearly indicate they saw the attack and their eyes opened wide, creating a "physical movement of any kind". Just like Tobirama though, they couldn't do anything. Tobirama had the opportunity of only having to make contact with a hand to mark Obito. Naruto and Sasuke have nothing like that in their arsenal.

The whole point of this anyways is that Tobirama cannot physically dodge Minato at top speed with the Nine Tails Chakra Mode. Minato has the edge in speed and reactions because of his danger sensing.

 

[KidGamer65]

With a Mangekyou Sharingan you are able to predict the movements of objects, therefore allowing one to react sooner and better, so yes, any Mangekyou Sharingan user is going to have better reactions than Hashirama (without Sage Mode), Tobirama, and Minato. The latter two might be able to escape through teleportation, but that does not solidify better reaction times as it only takes a slight thought. As for Obito being underground, I thought I remembered an image from above showing him as so, but I see now that he was closer to them then I thought. According to you however, they did react, as their eyes clearly indicate they saw the attack and their eyes opened wide, creating a "physical movement of any kind". Just like Tobirama though, they couldn't do anything. Tobirama had the opportunity of only having to make contact with a hand to mark Obito. Naruto and Sasuke have nothing like that in their arsenal.

The whole point of this anyways is that Tobirama cannot physically dodge Minato at top speed with the Nine Tails Chakra Mode. Minato has the edge in speed and reactions because of his danger sensing.

That has all been countered and won't be addressed again.

The underlined is irrelevant as a widening of the eyes after realizing Obito is coming for them isn't as great as a reaction as actually moving your body parts. Whether or not they can mark people is irrelevant. They were blitzed, with no real reaction. I suggest you cut the bullshit now.

As for the last sentence, reacting to Obito means he can react to Minato and dodge with Hiraishin. Minato doesn't even have Danger Sensing with KCM. This isn't Sage Mode, nor does he have better reactions since Tobirama's best feat>his best feat, and that's reacting to Juubito.

 

[Holy God]

That has all been countered and won't be addressed again.

The underlined is irrelevant as a widening of the eyes after realizing Obito is coming for them isn't as great as a reaction as actually moving your body parts. Whether or not they can mark people is irrelevant. They were blitzed, with no real reaction. I suggest you cut the bullshit now.

As for the last sentence, reacting to Obito means he can react to Minato and dodge with Hiraishin. Minato doesn't even have Danger Sensing with KCM. This isn't Sage Mode, nor does he have better reactions since Tobirama's best feat>his best feat, and that's reacting to Juubito.

If you want to state literal definitions it was a real reaction. As weak as it is, I doubt it would have been hard for either of them to swing their arms and tap Obito. Tobirama's reaction is not much more impressive, especially since he does not feel pain and would not flinch at performing an action against an incoming threat. I doubt he has better reactions than Hashirama, but you're implying so because Hashirama did nothing against the attack. As for danger sensing, I meant the sensing of evil intentions, which the Nine Tails Chakra Mode does grant. The grand point is that we've been shown that Minato can't dodge A and Tobirama can't dodge Obito. Now, do you think if Naruto/Minato in KCM flew at Tobirama at full speed, that he's going to jump out of the way or duck in a fashion without them noticing? If so, then that's very unfortunate.

 

[KidGamer65]

If you want to state literal definitions it was a real reaction. As weak as it is, I doubt it would have been hard for either of them to swing their arms and tap Obito. Tobirama's reaction is not much more impressive, especially since he does not feel pain and would not flinch at performing an action against an incoming threat. I doubt he has better reactions than Hashirama, but you're implying so because Hashirama did nothing against the attack. As for danger sensing, I meant the sensing of evil intentions, which the Nine Tails Chakra Mode does grant. The grand point is that we've been shown that Minato can't dodge A and Tobirama can't dodge Obito. Now, do you think if Naruto/Minato in KCM flew at Tobirama at full speed, that he's going to jump out of the way or duck in a fashion without them noticing? If so, then that's very unfortunate.

Pain is irrelevant when a reaction is only a reaction if you perform it before you actually get hit. :lol Nice try though. If you want to prove the bold then I'll wait for the proof, cause God knows I don't care for your opinion. And no, I never actually said he has better reactions than Hashirama. Hashirama's clone is what got blitzed.

Which is nowhere near as useful as sage sensing in this scenario, so it doesn't even matter. Not to mention Tobirama can sense too. KCM Naruto dashed at Tobirama at full speed, he'd teleport away using Hiraishin. Something I've stated at least 3 times now.

 

[Holy God]

Pain is irrelevant when a reaction is only a reaction if you perform it before you actually get hit. :lol Nice try though. If you want to prove the bold then I'll wait for the proof, cause God knows I don't care for your opinion. And no, I never actually said he has better reactions than Hashirama. Hashirama's clone is what got blitzed.

Which is nowhere near as useful as sage sensing in this scenario, so it doesn't even matter. Not to mention Tobirama can sense too. KCM Naruto dashed at Tobirama at full speed, he'd teleport away using Hiraishin. Something I've stated at least 3 times now.

There's no evidence that Tobirama touched Obito before he got hit. Clones also haven't been deemed to be physically weaker than the original. There's no reason for Hashirama, even his clone, to not be able to react to Obito if Tobirama so "easily" could.

That's exactly my point. Tobirama has to teleport. Even if Tobirama had this superior reaction speed, it can't be by much as the two ninjas are of the same rank and Minato counters it with his faster movement and expandable chakra arms which allow him to reach any direction.

 

[KidGamer65]

There's no evidence that Tobirama touched Obito before he got hit. Clones also haven't been deemed to be physically weaker than the original. There's no reason for Hashirama, even his clone, to not be able to react to Obito if Tobirama so "easily" could.

That's exactly my point. Tobirama has to teleport. Even if Tobirama had this superior reaction speed, it can't be by much as the two ninjas are of the same rank and Minato counters it with his faster movement and expandable chakra arms which allow him to reach any direction.

-That has been addressed.

-Hashirama was focusing the majority of his power to his main body, stated by Madara. SM Hashirama>>Base Hashirama>One of the few clones Hashirama made in overall stats.

-Underlined is false. Chakra arms don't counter teleporting. Shunshin isn't faster than teleportation nor can he blitz, thus Tobirama easily reacts. Tobirama reacted to Obito before he got hit, physically. Minato did the same, but against a far slower opponent. End of story.

 

[Holy God]

-That has been addressed.

-Hashirama was focusing the majority of his power to his main body, stated by Madara. SM Hashirama>>Base Hashirama>One of the few clones Hashirama made in overall stats.

-Underlined is false. Chakra arms don't counter teleporting. Shunshin isn't faster than teleportation nor can he blitz, thus Tobirama easily reacts. Tobirama reacted to Obito before he got hit, physically. Minato did the same, but against a far slower opponent. End of story.

It hasn't been addressed. It's impossible to know what happened between the time before Obito attacked and after, in which he already passed both Tobirama and Hashirama.

You can only limit clone's chakra, not their actual physical traits. Hashirama's clone should have the same strength and speed as the original.

Yes, chakra arms do counter teleportation because if Tobirama teleport behind him, Minato does not have to make any physical movements to counter. Obviously base speed does not surpass teleportation, but it gives him the advantage in having both options because a combination surpasses only teleportation. You can't limit a character based on different scenarios. You can't know Minato couldn't have done the same. Besides that, a kunai isn't going to get past the cloak if Minato's not passive. Tobirama has to resort to water techniques which gives Minato even more time to react.

 

[KidGamer65]

It hasn't been addressed. It's impossible to know what happened between the time before Obito attacked and after, in which he already passed both Tobirama and Hashirama.
You can only limit clone's chakra, not their actual physical traits. Hashirama's clone should have the same strength and speed as the original.

Yes, chakra arms do counter teleportation because if Tobirama teleport behind him, Minato does not have to make any physical movements to counter. Obviously base speed does not surpass teleportation, but it gives him the advantage in having both options because a combination surpasses only teleportation. You can't limit a character based on different scenarios. You can't know Minato couldn't have done the same. Besides that, a kunai isn't going to get past the cloak if Minato's not passive. Tobirama has to resort to water techniques which gives Minato even more time to react.

It's been addressed. Sorry bud. Already told you I'm not recountering points you can only repeat like some dumb broken record.

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Manga disagrees. End of story.

If Tobirama teleports behind him and he releases a chakra arm, Tobirama simply teleports away from it and then attacks him again. As for getting past his cloak, Gojo Kibakufuda handles that perfectly. Tobirama has already shown that he can create the paper tags needed for the explosion from his own body. All he'd have to do is teleport right to Minato and then let the explosion loose. Due to the AoE, Minato gets caught and dies.

And the bold is your responsibility to prove, not mine. Feats have already disproven it.

 

[History]

Minato wins without much problems tobirama striking speed was outright shitted on sm Madara.

Scaling puts sm madara slower than km minato. Summonings wreck tobirama Minato wins

 

[Great Master Minato]

The fastest of his era > the fastest of all time? YEAH RIGHT! NB is bliss U_U

 

[Ripple Hole]

Minato takes this one.

 

[KidGamer65]

The fastest of his era > the fastest of all time? YEAH RIGHT! NB is bliss U_U

Nobody ever put Minato as the fastest of all time. He was called the fastest shinobi. Period. Referring to people who were alive during his time.

I'm also still waiting for somebody, anybody, to put up even a semi legit argument for Minato. :lol Instead of the usual fanboying.

Minato wins without much problems tobirama striking speed was outright shitted on sm Madara.

Scaling puts sm madara slower than km minato. Summonings wreck tobirama Minato wins

Lmfao, no, it doesn't when we talk about everything other than Shunshin speed, but I don't expect you to back anything that comes out of that head of yours with Manga fact.

 

[Great Master Minato]

Nobody ever put Minato as the fastest of all time. He was called the fastest shinobi. Period. Referring to people who were alive during his time.

I'm also still waiting for somebody, anybody, to put up even a semi legit argument for Minato. :lol Instead of the usual fanboying.

We've been through this bro, there's nothing that suggest Minato couldn't do what Tobirama (someone who's portrayed to be slower than him) could do.

 

[KidGamer65]

We've been through this bro, there's nothing that suggest Minato couldn't do what Tobirama (some who's portrayed to be slower than him) could do.

No, we haven't been through this. I present the facts yet all you can do is deny them. Tobirama isn't portrayed to be slower than Minato. Not now, not ever. Tobirama was stated to have a slower Shunshin than Minato. Statements put them both the fastest of their respective eras. Hollow attempts at portrayal don't prove your point.

Not to mention the feats clearly show that your interpretation is wrong so you guys can cut it out now.

 

[Great Master Minato]

No, we haven't been through this. I present the facts yet all you can do is deny them. Tobirama isn't portrayed to be slower than Minato. Not now, not ever. Tobirama was stated to have a slower Shunshin than Minato. Statements put them both the fastest of their respective eras. Hollow attempts at portrayal don't prove your point.

Not to mention the feats clearly show that your interpretation is wrong so you guys can cut it out now.

Both have instant teleportation yet only one of them was praised for his speed through out the series, there's clearly a difference between the two.