[Discussion] Ace did not lose against Akainu and btw ace>>luffy still

[Punk Hazard]

1. Miss Valentine has the Kilo Kilo no Mi, but that didn't stop Oda from giving Machvise his Super Weight Fruit. Mr.5 had the Bomu Bomu no Mi, but that didn't stop Oda from giving Gladius the Pamu Pamu no Mi. Fujitora's DF is similar to the YYnM since they both use gravity in their attacks, but I don't see you complaining about that. If Sabo gets blue fire, he would be able to use it on a large scale, unlike Marco who can only use it on a very small scale. Miss Valantine's and Machvise's are closer to similarity than the MMnM would be if it could use blue fire to Marco's DF, same with Gladius and Mr.5

3. As I said earlier I believe the fact that Luffy can use his gears, even if they harm his body puts him above Moriah, who needs Hogback to make his DF somewhat useful, in terms of DF mastery.

1. I'll give you the Miss Valentine and Machvise one, but Bomu Bomu no Mi and Pamu Pamu no Mi are different, since Gladius simply inflates things until they pop, while the Bomu Bomu no Mi is an actual burst of energy, like a normal explosion.

3. What about the fact that Moriah found a way, regardless of Hogback, to use his fruit to ressurrect the dead. Hogback simply supplied him with the bodies, it was still Moriah who figured out and mastered the power.

Moriah has the ability to:

1. Mold his shadow into different shapes
2. Imbue life with shadows
3. Steal shadows
4. Manipulate his shape and the shape of others through shadows
5. Assimilate his shadows to gain strength
6. Teleport with his shadow, as well as partially teleport
With no direct drawbacks

While Luffy has the ability to:
1. Stretch
2. Increase blood flow(Gear 2)
3. Inflate(Gear 3)
With numerous direct drawbacks

And yet Luffy had more mastery at the time...sure

 

[U mAd]

ace had potential to be stronger then anyone currently in one piece and that includes luffy. precisely this was why he was killed but still ace vs akainu wouldn't have been a much of a fight.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

1. I'll give you the Miss Valentine and Machvise one, but Bomu Bomu no Mi and Pamu Pamu no Mi are different, since Gladius simply inflates things until they pop, while the Bomu Bomu no Mi is an actual burst of energy, like a normal explosion.

3. What about the fact that Moriah found a way, regardless of Hogback, to use his fruit to ressurrect the dead. Hogback simply supplied him with the bodies, it was still Moriah who figured out and mastered the power.

Moriah has the ability to:

1. Mold his shadow into different shapes
2. Imbue life with shadows
3. Steal shadows
4. Manipulate his shape and the shape of others through shadows
5. Assimilate his shadows to gain strength
6. Teleport with his shadow, as well as partially teleport
With no direct drawbacks

While Luffy has the ability to:
1. Stretch
2. Increase blood flow(Gear 2)
3. Inflate(Gear 3)
With numerous direct drawbacks

And yet Luffy had more mastery at the time...sure

You're just stacking the amount for Moriah and using broad terms such as "stretch" for Luffy, I can do the same thing

Moriah can:
1. Manipulate shadows
2. Assimilate shadows
3. Switch places with his shadow

Luffy can:
1. Stretch any part of his body
2. Deflect bullets
3. Shrink
4. Use Gear 2
5. Use Gear 3
6. Combine Gears 2 and 3

Back when Luffy was a kid he couldn't even stretch his arms in a straight line, but now he can not only do that, but he has one of the most diverse movesets in the series, increase his speed exponentially, and inflate his bones to make his arms like the arms of a giant. All Moriah does with his own moves is make shadow bats, steal shadows(which isn't very easy to do without someone else helping you by restraining them), and switch places with his own shadow. He had several years of prep time and outside help before his fight with the SHs and he still lost. If Moriah had no prep time he probably would have lost to Luffy alone.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

ace had potential to be stronger then anyone currently in one piece and that includes luffy. precisely this was why he was killed but still ace vs akainu wouldn't have been a much of a fight.

So why exactly does he have so much potential? He trained with WB for 3 years and barely improved in strength.

 

[Punk Hazard]

You're just stacking the amount for Moriah and using broad terms such as "stretch" for Luffy, I can do the same thing

Moriah can:
1. Manipulate shadows
2. Assimilate shadows
3. Switch places with his shadow

Luffy can:
1. Stretch any part of his body
2. Deflect bullets
3. Shrink
4. Use Gear 2
5. Use Gear 3
6. Combine Gears 2 and 3

Back when Luffy was a kid he couldn't even stretch his arms in a straight line, but now he can not only do that, but he has one of the most diverse movesets in the series, increase his speed tenfold, and inflate his bones to make his arms like the arms of a giant. All Moriah does with his own moves is make shadow bats, steal shadows(which isn't very easy to do without someone else helping you by restraining them), and switch places with his own shadow. He had several years of prep time and outside help before his fight with the SHs and he still lost. If Moriah had no prep time he probably would have lost to Luffy alone.

Actually, that's not how it works. I listed 6 separate powers, that can't be group together as they have 6 separate properties for Moriah. Imbuing life, for example, fit into none of those categories you listed. Manipulating shape, while it's an afteraffect of his shadow manipulation is till a separate result so to speak. He can manipulate shadows without anything changing in shape or size, so it's a separate ability.

Combining Gear 2 and 3 doesn't indicate "mastery" of any kind, that just falls into Gear 2 and 3. Luffy can't willingly shrink, that was a drawback, a weakness, to Gear 3 that no longer exists. Reflecting bullets falls into the same category as stretching, as the bullets are reflected through stretching.

Moriah has 6 different abilities using his DF alone, while Luffy has 3. Your generaliziations are faulty.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Actually, that's not how it works. I listed 6 separate powers, that can't be group together as they have 6 separate properties for Moriah. Imbuing life, for example, fit into none of those categories you listed. Manipulating shape, while it's an afteraffect of his shadow manipulation is till a separate result so to speak. He can manipulate shadows without anything changing in shape or size, so it's a separate ability.

Combining Gear 2 and 3 doesn't indicate "mastery" of any kind, that just falls into Gear 2 and 3. Luffy can't willingly shrink, that was a drawback, a weakness, to Gear 3 that no longer exists. Reflecting bullets falls into the same category as stretching, as the bullets are reflected through stretching.

Moriah has 6 different abilities using his DF alone, while Luffy has 3. Your generaliziations are faulty.

He's manipulating the shadows to bring life into a zombie, he is manipulating a shadow when he molds it into a different shape, and he is manipulating the shadows when he steals them.

 

[decayed]

Ace was around Jimbei's level so he'd still get low or mid diffed by an admiral in a healthy condition anyway. He probably had haki though considering he was a commander on whitebeard's ship but it must have been weak since he couldn't use armament hardening or hadn't done enough training with it.

 

[Punk Hazard]

He's manipulating the shadows to bring life into a zombie, he is manipulating a shadow when he molds it into a different shape, and he is manipulating the shadows when he steals them.

You're actually right about one thing, his powers fall into three categories, while Luffy's fall into two. However, the difference is, Moriah has 6 powers(stealing shadows, changing shape of people and things, manipulating shape and size of his shadow, teleporting and partial teleporting with his shadow, assimilating shadow to boost strength, and imbuing life with his shadows) that fall into three categories(swtiching, manipulating and assimilating), while Luffy has three powers(inflating, blood flow increase, and stretching of his limbs) that fall into two categories(stretching[Gear 2 and limb stretch] and inflating[Gear 3].) It still stands that, at the time, Moriah had greater mastery, as he had many uses and no direct drawbacks, while Luffy had half as many uses and numerous drawbacks.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

You're actually right about one thing, his powers fall into three categories, while Luffy's fall into two. However, the difference is, Moriah has 6 powers(stealing shadows, changing shape of people and things, manipulating shape and size of his shadow, teleporting and partial teleporting with his shadow, assimilating shadow to boost strength, and imbuing life with his shadows) that fall into three categories(swtiching, manipulating and assimilating), while Luffy has three powers(inflating, blood flow increase, and stretching of his limbs) that fall into two categories(stretching[Gear 2 and limb stretch] and inflating[Gear 3].) It still stands that, at the time, Moriah had greater mastery, as he had many uses and no direct drawbacks, while Luffy had half as many uses and numerous drawbacks.

Just because a DF offers more versatility than another doesn't mean that its user has more mastery. Pretty much all logias only have 1 category. The Gura Gura no Mi only has 1 category also, earthquakes. Some other Paramecias also only have 1 category. So unless Moriah has better mastery than WB, Fujitora, Doflamingo, all Logias, and some more, his DF's versatility doesn't equal mastery.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Just because a DF offers more versatility than another doesn't mean that its user has more mastery. Pretty much all logias only have 1 category. The Gura Gura no Mi only has 1 category also, earthquakes. Some other Paramecias also only have 1 category. So unless Moriah has better mastery than WB, Fujitora, Doflamingo, all Logias, and some more, his DF's versatility doesn't equal mastery.

1. My point isn't that Moriah has more mastery of his fruit because it has all these versatile abilities, but because he has gained access to and mastered these abilities. Moriah faces no direct drawbacks to his powers, while Luffy faced many at the time. That means Moriah has more mastery, as he had access to more of his fruit's powers than Luffy did to his, and didn't have negative consequences. Moriah had more mastery simply because he removed his limitations, and Luffy didn't.

2. Goro Gor no Mi gave Enel the ability to expand his Observation Haki, control metal, travel through metals, and create sonic booms, all more than merely creating lightning.

Whitebeard had the power to create tsunamis, grab air and tilt the environment, as well as focusing his shockwaves into a bubble.

Caesar was able to expand his fruit to create poisons, explosions, and create those casings around people that stopped their movement.

Crocodile had the power to absorb water and all forms of moisture, as well as break down stone and wood.

Kizaru can use his powers to travel at light speed that can't be tracked by the human eye.

My point is, all off these people have expanded their Logia powers to more than just 1 power, eve if it's just 1 category, so you saying that is irrelevant. It's not about how many categories there are, but how many powers are in total. Let that truly process in your head before you make your next post.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Also, Luffy has at least 4 powers, his rubber body reduces damage from blunt objects. 2 of the powers Moriah has that oyu listed are the same thing. They are him manipulating the shapes of the shadows of others, and him manipulating his own shadow. They both fall into 1 power, manipulating the shapes of shadows.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

1. My point isn't that Moriah has more mastery of his fruit because it has all these versatile abilities, but because he has gained access to and mastered these abilities. Moriah faces no direct drawbacks to his powers, while Luffy faced many at the time. That means Moriah has more mastery, as he had access to more of his fruit's powers than Luffy did to his, and didn't have negative consequences. Moriah had more mastery simply because he removed his limitations, and Luffy didn't.

2. Goro Gor no Mi gave Enel the ability to expand his Observation Haki, control metal, travel through metals, and create sonic booms, all more than merely creating lightning.

Whitebeard had the power to create tsunamis, grab air and tilt the environment, as well as focusing his shockwaves into a bubble.

Caesar was able to expand his fruit to create poisons, explosions, and create those casings around people that stopped their movement.

Crocodile had the power to absorb water and all forms of moisture, as well as break down stone and wood.

Kizaru can use his powers to travel at light speed that can't be tracked by the human eye.

My point is, all off these people have expanded their Logia powers to more than just 1 power, eve if it's just 1 category, so you saying that is irrelevant. It's not about how many categories there are, but how many powers are in total. Let that truly process in your head before you make your next post.

So do you think current Luffy is inferior is terms of DF mastery compared to some of these people? He hasn't gained any new powers and has less powers than some of these people. Some DFs just don't allow the users to have as much or more powers than some others. It isn't about how many powers you have with your DF, its how well you use your powers.

 

[Punk Hazard]

So do you think current Luffy is inferior is terms of DF mastery compared to some of these people? He hasn't gained any new powers and has less powers than some of these people. It isn't about how many powers you have with your DF, its how well you use your powers.

This whole time I have been talking about Thriller Bark Luffy. Your question is irrelevant.

Yeah. I know that. Like I said, it's not because Moria's fruit gives him more powers. Moriah has mastery because of a culmination of these reasons
1. He's unlocked and mastered more of his fruit's powers than Luffy has of his
2. He has no direct drawbacks from his fruit, while, AT THE TIME, Luffy had numerous drawbacks.

It is that simple.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Luffy has more than 3 powers.
Stretching
Extreme twisting(as seen in Gomu Gomu no Rifle, which uses 2 powers)
Immunity to electrical based attacks
Reduced damage from blunt objects
Inflation
Increased blood flow

So Luffy has 6 powers, and 4 categories(immunites, stretching, twisting, and inflation). The Gomu Gomu no Mi offers a lot of versatility in attacks and Luffy has displayed his creativeness with the fruit thoughout the series many times whenever he invents a new attack or a new technique.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Luffy has more than 3 powers.
Stretching
Extreme twisting(as seen in Gomu Gomu no Rifle, which uses 2 powers)
Immunity to electrical based attacks
Reduced damage from blunt objects
Inflation
Increased blood flow

So Luffy has 6 powers, and 4 categories(immunites, stretching, twisting, and inflation). The Gomu Gomu no Mi offers a lot of versatility in attacks and Luffy has displayed his creativeness with the fruit thoughout the series many times whenever he invents a new attack or a new technique.

The bolded are actually the same. And like I said, it's more than just the number of powers. Funny how you said that too, but are now using it as your basis for why Luffy had more mastery. The fact still remains that Moriah showed no direct drawbacks to using his powers, while Luffy showed numerous. That alone puts him below Moriah in DF mastery.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

The bolded are actually the same. And like I said, it's more than just the number of powers. Funny how you said that too, but are now using it as your basis for why Luffy had more mastery. The fact still remains that Moriah showed no direct drawbacks to using his powers, while Luffy showed numerous. That alone puts him below Moriah in DF mastery.

Moriah had nothing that can be compared to the gears in terms of pushing your DF abilities. You were talking about how more DF powers=more mastery so I was just using that logic. Ok replace stretching with expanding. Stretching is a category, but expanding and twisting are different powers.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Moriah had nothing that can be compared to the gears in terms of pushing your DF abilities. You were talking about how more DF powers=more mastery so I was just using that logic. Ok replace stretching with expanding. Stretching is a category, but expanding and twisting are different powers.

Still. Does. Not. Change. That. Moriah. Overcame. His. Limits. And. Luffy. Did. Not.

You can't have more mastery over something than someone else if they've overcome their limits and you haven't.

Moriah gained access to more powers AND had fewer limitations/drawbacks. These two IN CONJUNCTION is why Moriah has more mastery. They are not two separate points, they work together as one point. Even if Luffy did have more or equal powers, he still had more limits, and that makes him behind Moriah.

If you can run just as fast as someone, but not as long or as far, can you say you're a better track runner than them?

And before you bring up current Luffy again, I'm still talking about Thriller Bark Luffy.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

Still. Does. Not. Change. That. Moriah. Overcame. His. Limits. And. Luffy. Did. Not.

You can't have more mastery over something than someone else if they've overcome their limits and you haven't.

Moriah gained access to more powers AND had fewer limitations/drawbacks. These two IN CONJUNCTION is why Moriah has more mastery. They are not two separate points, they work together as one point. Even if Luffy did have more or equal powers, he still had more limits, and that makes him behind Moriah.

If you can run just as fast as someone, but not as long or as far, can you say you're a better track runner than them?

And before you bring up current Luffy again, I'm still talking about Thriller Bark Luffy.

Imo you have to take into consideration someone's level of mastery with a DF and how hard a DF is compared to another. For example, mastering the Gura Gura isn't as impressive as mastering the Gomu Gomu. So on a scale of 1-10 on DF mastery I'd say TB Luffy is a 6 while Moriah is a 7. However, on a scale of 1-5 on how hard their fruit naturally is to master I'd say Moriah is at most a 3 while Luffy is at 4. So TB Luffy's level of mastery with is fruit is a 24 while Moriah's is a 21. Though that just depends on where you place them on those scales.

 

[Gintõki1]

If he has so much potential then howcome he didn't even have Haki.

Ever heard something about plot? He was the character that had to die, to push Luffy. /facepalm

 

[Fireplay]

A 40 year old Ace would shit on anyone U_U

Including Roger and EoS Luffy. Ace-sama why did you do it? why didn't you just let Luffy die and become the main character yourself?