hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

OnPoint

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1-I'm not neglecting Kabuto's words. Many don't believe in his power not "most" as you stated. Furthermore even Obito knew he was the strongest of his generation.
Without wanting to turn this into an English lesson;

The word 'many' when used with a plural verb (such as doubted, which means 'to doubt'):

n. (used with a pl. verb)
1. A large indefinite number: A good many of the workers had the flu.
2. The majority of the people; the masses: "The many fail, the one succeeds"

2. We will never agree.
 

Hipster Madara

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Interesting, you chose to neglect Kabuto's words. You know, the guy who's been alive recently.

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I haven't been following this debate so I'll just answer this part (idk wtf you are talking about in the other pages or what it has to do with Hashirama xd)

The fact that he has been living recently makes him lose credibility as well. He never actually saw Hashirama at his prime. Wasn't Kabuto the one surprised when he saw Flower/plant world or whatever it's called? He hasn't even see Hiruzen fight prime from what we know so why you use Kabuto as a reference is quite strange.
It is true that Madara is biased, at least a little, but from what he have seen, what he has said is at least backed up from what we have seen.
 

Unbiased

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Without wanting to turn this into an English lesson;

The word 'many' when used with a plural verb (such as doubted, which means 'to doubt'):

n. (used with a pl. verb)
1. A large indefinite number: A good many of the workers had the flu.
2. The majority of the people; the masses: "The many fail, the one succeeds"

2. We will never agree.
1-Yet somehow Obito/ANBU/Iruka knew he was the strongest of his generation.

2-Of course not because I'm going strictly with what the manga has presented and not my own interpretation.
 

OnPoint

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I haven't been following this debate so I'll just answer this part (idk wtf you are talking about in the other pages or what it has to do with Hashirama xd)

The fact that he has been living recently makes him lose credibility as well. He never actually saw Hashirama at his prime. Wasn't Kabuto the one surprised when he saw Flower/plant world or whatever it's called? He hasn't even see Hiruzen fight prime from what we know so why you use Kabuto as a reference is quite strange.
It is true that Madara is biased, at least a little, but from what he have seen, what he has said is at least backed up from what we have seen.
Kabuto wasn't giving his opinion on the matter, rather, telling us what other people had been thinking/doing. It's exactly the same as Iruka, who was just forwarding other people's opinions. He never saw Hiruzen's prime.
 

OnPoint

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1-Yet somehow Obito/ANBU/Iruka knew he was the strongest of his generation.

2-Of course not because I'm going strictly with what the manga has presented and not my own interpretation.
1. Because he was the strongest of his generation. That doesn't mean it's impossible for him to be the strongest now (though I don't think he's stronger than Edo Madara or Obito).
2. Well, you keep saying this, and I keep asking for that magical manga page which somehow remains locked away.
 

TrollingSage

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Nagato is a shinobi who was called a God
Hiruzen is a Shinobi who was called God of Shinobi. Please learn to logic.
Logic? Is that what you're using? Hiruzen's god of shinobi title was simply that. A title. You can tell from the way his people interacted with him that they didnt actually believe he was a god. Nagato's people however believed him to be a god, a reincarnation of the sage himself. And Hashirama being called the best shinobi cancels out Hiruzen's god of shinobi title. He can't be the "best" shinobi if Hiruzen is better than him now can he? So just like Hashirama can't be the best if Hiruzen is a god of shinobi, Hiruzen can't be a the god of shinobi if Hashirama is "the best". In simple terms, hypes and nicknames dont mean nothing.
 

Unbiased

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1. Because he was the strongest of his generation. That doesn't mean it's impossible for him to be the strongest now (though I don't think he's stronger than Edo Madara or Obito).
2. Well, you keep saying this, and I keep asking for that magical manga page which somehow remains locked away.
1- I'll agree with you on the fact that he was the strongest of his generation. However it was stated Hiruzen was stronger.
2-I showed you the manga page and you ignore it/disagree with it so GG. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink from it.
 

OnPoint

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1- I'll agree with you on the fact that he was the strongest of his generation. However it was stated Hiruzen was stronger.
2-I showed you the manga page and you ignore it/disagree with it so GG. I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink from it.
Concession accepted. The manga page which states Kabuto had knowledge/mastered the Rinnegan to Nagato's level doesn't exist.
 

Unbiased

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Logic? Is that what you're using? Hiruzen's god of shinobi title was simply that. A title. You can tell from the way his people interacted with him that they didnt actually believe he was a god. Nagato's people however believed him to be a god, a reincarnation of the sage himself. And Hashirama being called the best shinobi cancels out Hiruzen's god of shinobi title. He can't be the "best" shinobi if Hiruzen is better than him now can he? So just like Hashirama can't be the best if Hiruzen is a god of shinobi, Hiruzen can't be a the god of shinobi if Hashirama is "the best". In simple terms, hypes and nicknames dont mean nothing.
Actually Jiraiya believed him to be a reincarnation of the sage himself.

1-Nope so it looks like hiruzen is better according to rank however if that is irrelevant to you then their battle show cases who is superior. Hiruzen countered every jutsu Hashirama used while Hashirama despite having access to all his original jutsus was unable too.
 
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Unbiased

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Concession accepted. The manga page which states Kabuto had knowledge/mastered the Rinnegan to Nagato's level doesn't exist.
The manga page that shows Kabuto using the rinnegan on Nagato's level does exist though.

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/curb stomped
 

JIRAIYA perv

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hiruzen was the strongest (in my opinion) or maybe he was the second strongest after hashi, and am talking about hiruzen in his prime coz after seeing him old, there is no doubt that he was a MONSTER.
 

OnPoint

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The manga page that shows Kabuto using the rinnegan on Nagato's level does exist though.

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/curb stomped
This would be about the 5th time we've gone through this and you still don't seem to understand. For the third time, you are suggesting Genma and co can use Hiraishin to the same effectiveness as Minato in battle. That Konohamaru would immediately be on Hashirama's level in a battle of Wood Release if you gave him Mokuton but no time to master it. And of course, no response to the page which shows Kabuto taking time out to think about what jutsu the Rinnegan was capable of. Like a true pro. Like Madara taking time out in battle and asking 'which path can I use to absorb Ninjutsu?'

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Oh that's right, Kabuto gave himself a pat on the back for realising that the Rinnegan gives rise to Chibaku Tensei. Like he's had it for 30+ years.
 

Unbiased

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This would be about the 5th time we've gone through this and you still don't seem to understand. For the third time, you are suggesting Genma and co can use Hiraishin to the same effectiveness as Minato in battle. That Konohamaru would immediately be on Hashirama's level in a battle of Wood Release if you gave him Mokuton but no time to master it. And of course, no response to the page which shows Kabuto taking time out to think about what jutsu the Rinnegan was capable of. Like a true pro. Like Madara taking time out in battle and asking 'which path can I use to absorb Ninjutsu?'

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Oh that's right, Kabuto gave himself a pat on the back for realising that the Rinnegan gives rise to Chibaku Tensei. Like he's had it for 30+ years.
That still doesn't refute me. Try harder.
 

TrollingSage

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Actually Jiraiya believed him to be a reincarnation of the sage himself.

1-Nope so it looks like hiruzen is better according to rank however if that is irrelevant to you then their battle show cases who is superior. Hiruzen countered every jutsu Hashirama used while Hashirama despite having access to all his original jutsus was unable too.
Actually he didnt counter every jutsu Hashirama used. He certainly didnt counter B.O.D. Fact of the matter is if it was Hashirama on full killing intent instead of Orochimaru on trolling mode, he would have used flower world after B.O.D to prevent Hiruzen from sniffing him out. With his sight gone, Hiruzen won't see flower world and he'll be fast asleep before he even realizes. That fact of the matter is Hashirama's abilities far outclasses anything Hiruzen has shown so far.
 

OnPoint

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That still doesn't refute me. Try harder.
Well, if you want to lie about which manga pages you have access to, by all means post these imaginary pages you once claimed were in existence. Ignore my point about Genma, Hiraishin and Konohamaru. Continue to shy away from the pages which show Kabuto actually having to take time to think about the Rinnegan's jutsu, as you have for many posts. This is boring. Although I know you won't actually bother to counter the points, rather, bring up something which you've forwarded about 5 times already. But if you do make up another excuse, i'm just going to leave the 'concession accepted' message in this post so that I don't need to return to this thread.
 

Unbiased

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Actually he didnt counter every jutsu Hashirama used. He certainly didnt counter B.O.D. Fact of the matter is if it was Hashirama on full killing intent instead of Orochimaru on trolling mode, he would have used flower world after B.O.D to prevent Hiruzen from sniffing him out. With his sight gone, Hiruzen won't see flower world and he'll be fast asleep before he even realizes. That fact of the matter is Hashirama's abilities far outclasses anything Hiruzen has shown so far.
1-Where in the manga does it state he would of used flower power after B.O.D? Once again your just making up hypothetical situations which is something that desperate people do.
2-Hiruzen's clones sniffed him out btw.

Well, if you want to lie about which manga pages you have access to, by all means post these imaginary pages you once claimed were in existence. Ignore my point about Genma, Hiraishin and Konohamaru. Continue to shy away from the pages which show Kabuto actually having to take time to think about the Rinnegan's jutsu, as you have for many posts. This is boring. Although I know you won't actually bother to counter the points, rather, bring up something which you've forwarded about 5 times already. But if you do make up another excuse, i'm just going to leave the 'concession accepted' message in this post so that I don't need to return to this thread.
1-Your points with those characters are irrelevant since they're not edo tensei'd nor is FTG/Kage bunshin/Rasengan their original technique.

2-Its irrelevant he had to think about it he still utilized all of them. That's like saying Naruto doesn't know Kage bunshin if he thinks about what to use.
 
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EliteKakashi

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We don't even know what Old Hiruzen was capable of, much less Prime. Hiruzen wasn't giving it his all in the fight vs Orochimaru, Enma points out as much here:

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Kind of hard to debate about him one way or the other.
 

Owarij

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he would have used flower world after B.O.D to prevent Hiruzen from sniffing him out.

Sorry to butt in your argument.. but you say this like it's a fact.. like you know how hiruzen fights.. and you know the combinations he uses.. what you're saying is simply a combination you thought up of..
 

TrollingSage

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1-Where in the manga does it state he would of used flower power after B.O.D? Once again your just making up hypothetical situations which is something that desperate people do.
2-Hiruzen's clones sniffed him out btw.
You want a manga page that says he would have? Why don't you show me a manga page which shows he would have just stood there and not attacked Hiruzen with mokuton whilst he was under B.O.D?


1-Your points with those characters are irrelevant since they're not edo tensei'd nor is FTG/Kage bunshin/Rasengan their original technique.

2-Its irrelevant he had to think about it he still utilized all of them. That's like saying Naruto doesn't know Kage bunshin if he thinks about what to use.
Can't believe you're still arguing this. I thought I ended that debate with the scan where Kabuto admits its was better to let Deidara fight on his own that to control him?

Sorry to butt in your argument.. but you say this like it's a fact.. like you know how hiruzen fights.. and you know the combinations he uses.. what you're saying is simply a combination you thought up of..
Well that may be true, but he certainly isnt going to just stand around and watch Hiruzen make clones, prepare a jutsu and attack him without doing anything.
 

Unbiased

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You want a manga page that says he would have? Why don't you show me a manga page which shows he would have just stood there and not attacked Hiruzen with mokuton whilst he was under B.O.D?


Can't believe you're still arguing this. I thought I ended that debate with the scan where Kabuto admits its was better to let Deidara fight on his own that to control him?


1- I do want a manga page that says he would of. You're the one claiming he would of so present it and backup your claim.

2- I can't it doesn't exist whether or not he is under edo tensei or real. However I can show you a manga page showing you beating the snot out of hiruzen with Tobirama and his clones get him.

3-No because Kabuto stated that he didn't get art and didn't know deidara too well. It didn't state that Kabuto didn't know his techniques.
 
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