hiruzen is not the strongest hokage... proof

[The Hidden Shinobi]

And also the paper bomb thing which hiruzen landed, that would never happen in a real fight that easily, they are edo's orochimaru knows they regenerate he didn't have to worry about minor attacks like that landing.

Like when kabuto summoned the 7 swordsmen and let them take the assault from the alliance, that would never stand there like that and take it.

 

[Saikyokami]

not even close..... sasuke killed oro oro killed hiruzen sasuke is way stronger than in beginning of part two and is more or less equal to naruto naruto may be a bit stronger but you get the point so next is oh yah and if naruto was stronger than sasuke who killed oro a long time ago and oro killed hiruzen so if hiruzen was as strong and hasirama naruto would be able to solo madara

 

[Zlad]

I seriously doubt hiruzen being up to the levels of hashirama and madara. Even up to nagato we can see people like oonoki, kakashi, minato is below them I don't see how this one man hiruzen who could do barely anything in front of the nine tails was above hashirama and madara, lets be realllll. Hiruzen is all hype from the villagers who admired him

Enma have been alive for an long time, and he commented on the fight with Orochimaru saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime. Hashirama is nothing more than hype too, it's only Madara that respects him and calls him strong; but he never called him god of shinobi's or the strongest Hokage.

Both are hype, but being able to fight two former Hokages at age of 69.... Dude, give the man credit

 

[yeahhboi]

whoever thought hiruzen was the strongest hokage or kage is mentally retarded

 

[Unbiased]

But he didn't even noticed Hiruzen planted the paper bombs. I'm not sure whether Hashirama or Tobirama would've noticed or not, but that's not what I'm arguing.

Your arguing hypothetical situations. There's no proof whatsoever it wouldn't of landed on them or happened. All we know is that it happened, and they were perfected, and had the ability to use all their original techniques.

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

The manga states they can use all their original techniques. It says nothing about the user having to know them as your stating. That is what I call making something up.

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That's if they are in control of their bodies, obviously they can use all their techs if they are in control.

But when kabuto is in control they follow his orders only.

This is why he was so happy when he was about to see what uchiha madara could really do, do you seriously think he knew every single tech that madara has shown. If this was the case he would know about madara knowing the seal.

Kabuto has the most information in this series as he was a spy for many people, this is part of the reason why he was able to use edo tensei so effectively.

 

[Sea Of Thy Soul]

Hiruzen is the strongest Kage.
M-A-N-G-A. F-A-C-T.

Your thread lack's credibility.

 

[Chef Boy RD]

Kabuto disagrees. He said there aren't any shinobi alive on his level anymore. Obviously there were more than just him and Madara.

For argument's sake, let's say Sasuke doesn't have Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan right now. So if Madara dies, and I say, "there aren't any shinobi alive with Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan anymore" am I implying that there were more people besides Madara with the EMS when we clearly know there wasn't?

Now let's say that Sasuke does have it, and Madara dies, and then I say, "There aren't any shinobi alive save for Sasuke with those eyes" am I implying that there were more people besides Madara and Sasuke who had the EMS when we clearly know there wasn't?

If Kakuzu dies and it is stated that "there aren't any shinobi alive anymore who can steal hearts" am I implying that more than just Kakuzu stole hearts?

If... I can do this forever bro.

Help me understand your logic here.

 

[Exaar]

I seriously doubt hiruzen being up to the levels of hashirama and madara. Even up to nagato we can see people like oonoki, kakashi, minato is below them I don't see how this one man hiruzen who could do barely anything in front of the nine tails was above hashirama and madara, lets be realllll. Hiruzen is all hype from the villagers who admired him

So just because you Doubt Hiruzens hype/Cannot see how Hiruzen could possibly be on Hashi's level, You completely disregard what has been said about him?.

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

Your arguing hypothetical situations. There's no proof whatsoever it wouldn't of landed on them or happened. All we know is that it happened, and they were perfected, and had the ability to use all their original techniques.

That's the thing it wouldn't of landed on them, orochimaru knows edo's regenerated so he didn't have to worry about a little paper bomb. It's like when kabuto knew the 7 swordsmen would regenerate so he just made them stand there.

But if you really think the 1st and 2nd hokage would be beat that early by a paper bomb? That's just silly. The guy who took down the kyuubi and madara.. a paper bomb lol

 

[Unbiased]

That's if they are in control of their bodies, obviously they can use all their techs if they are in control.

But when kabuto is in control they follow his orders only.

This is why he was so happy when he was about to see what uchiha madara could really do, do you seriously think he knew every single tech that madara has shown. If this was the case he would know about madara knowing the seal.

Kabuto has the most information in this series as he was a spy for many people, this is part of the reason why he was able to use edo tensei so effectively.

It doesn't matter if he knows the jutsus or if they're in absolute control. According to the manga they can use all their original jutsu's. It doesn't state that the user has to know the techniques.

 

[Unbiased]

That's the thing it wouldn't of landed on them, orochimaru knows edo's regenerated so he didn't have to worry about a little paper bomb. It's like when kabuto knew the 7 swordsmen would regenerate so he just made them stand there.

But if you really think the 1st and 2nd hokage would be beat that early by a paper bomb? That's just silly. The guy who took down the kyuubi and madara.. a paper bomb lol

That is kinda funny, but that's just how kishi wrote it. The dude who along with his wife barely beat Madara and the Kyuubi got his leg blown off by a paper bomb.

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

So just because you Doubt Hiruzens hype/Cannot see how Hiruzen could possibly be on Hashi's level, You completely disregard what has been said about him?.

No I still believe he was a very powerful hokage, but only up to oonoki's, minatos, itachi's level etc.. but to say above madara and hashirama who were on the same power level after we have seen what they can do? Common, hiruzen? That is so random, fans talk about hiruzen more then kishi does

 

[OnPoint]

It doesn't matter if he knows the jutsus or if they're in absolute control. According to the manga they can use all their original jutsu's. It doesn't state that the user has to know the techniques.

This VIZ scan clearly shows that the user's incompetence could hinder the summon's ability in combat. Even if they retain all their original powers, it means nothing if the person controlling them is unable to fully draw out such abilities or use them as effectively as they could be. It's all about the level of control; the less, the better.

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[Blaze Release]

So it seems this is war. I always stayed away from this discussion but im fully in it now.
Im gonna run riot in hashirama's fanbase

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

That is kinda funny, but that's just how kishi wrote it. The dude who along with his wife barely beat Madara and the Kyuubi got his leg blown off by a paper bomb.

It would never happen against the real hashirama, there edo's and not in control of their bodies, orochimaru knows they can't die.

 

[TrollingSage]

It doesn't matter if he knows the jutsus or if they're in absolute control. According to the manga they can use all their original jutsu's. It doesn't state that the user has to know the techniques.

Both the first and second Hokage fought countless wars in their days. I think its fair to say they would have noticed being tagged by with a paper bomb.
Bolded bit: Shinobi battles are not all about what techniques you can use. They're about how you use them. For example Minato is a very powerful character with his skillset. Now give all his techs to someone like Naruto and he wont be quite as powerful. That's why edos with free will and much better than ones being controlled like puppets. They have years of experience with their techs and they know how best to utilize them.

 

[Zlad]

No I still believe he was a very powerful hokage, but only up to oonoki's, minatos, itachi's level etc.. but to say above madara and hashirama who were on the same power level after we have seen what they can do? Common, hiruzen? That is so random, fans talk about hiruzen more then kishi does

The reason why Hiruzen can't beat Madara is simple, he cannot surpress chakra like Hashirama can do

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Guy defeated Kisame, and Bee did not. Does that mean Guy is stronger than Bee?

 

[Unbiased]

It would never happen against the real hashirama, there edo's and not in control of their bodies, orochimaru knows they can't die.

There's no proof that it wouldn't happen. There's just none at all.

This VIZ scan clearly shows that the user's incompetence could hinder the summon's ability in combat. Even if they retain all their original powers, it means nothing if the person controlling them is unable to fully draw out such abilities or use them as effectively as they could be. It's all about the level of control; the less, the better.

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Yet he was still able to utilize him to his full potential. Further proving my point. He didn't know his techniques yet he could use all of them.

 

[Exaar]

No I still believe he was a very powerful hokage, but only up to oonoki's, minatos, itachi's level etc.. but to say above madara and hashirama who were on the same power level after we have seen what they can do? Common, hiruzen? That is so random, fans talk about hiruzen more then kishi does

Well thats kind of the Problem here, We've seen what both Madara/Hashi can do, But nothing of what Prime hiruzen can do.

The Man kishi Hyped to be a God Of shinobi, Even being a contender for the strongest hokage, Even being a contender of being the strongest of the 5 kages even in his miserable state.
Even in his old age he is hyped to be stronger than onoki.

Maybe kishi hyped hiruzen up just for shits and giggles