Does Kisame Wreck Classic Gokage? (Individually)

[KidGamer65]

In the anime depiction it showed the sand running deeper similar to how the manga implied it as well by the sand running off page etc. But even then, that strengthens my point when you think about it. Gaara flowed his chakra into the immediate vicinity (the grass-plains), seen when he stomped, and all the materialized sand emerged from within the ground.

I mean imagine if he spread his chakra out further than the small vicinity he'd initially targeted. Obviously he could, at the sheer fact Gaara said it takes no effort/it's no art (meaning its easy af/no swear of his back), with that Pt.1 Gaara could indeed make a sand tsunami > water dome.

That's if you believe that a Pt.1 Gaara who manipulated the small vicinity to create the sand tsunami didn't make it in proportions close to WD.

Yeah, but how much deeper it ran is unknown so there's no way to claim that it can cover an entire forest, and not to mention all forests in the Manga have shown to be unequal in size. So I'm pretty sure that Kisame's Water Dome is easily larger than anything Pt. 1 Gaara can manage, and where did he say it takes no effort to make sand of that scale? He said it's no art to create sand out of soil, not that it's no art to create sand of that scale. So there's no way to actually prove he could manipulate much more than he did in that panel.

 

[DrProof]

Then you're scaling things completely off accuracy.

Sand Tsunami only has the volume of forest [

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], which isn't an impressive feat in P2, as most characters in P2 can now destroy a forest. Water Dome is both in width and height equal to a singular mountain. I posted the scan above. Mountain volume > forest volume.

Now on the meteor, lol. It's obviously not bigger than any mountain, lmao. The full meteor is the height of PS, which is the height of a singular mountain. The equation is then this:

Water Dome = singular mountain = PS = full meteor > bottom meteor = Gaara's sand which halted it > sand tsunami = forest.

Kisame has more Chakra than Gaara is based on how the author portrays Kisame's Chakra sensed by characters in contrast to Gaara's Chakra sensed by characters. Karin senses Gaara's Chakra and doesn't exaggerate anything about it, while she senses Kisame's Chakra and calls it big. Then Kisame has more Chakra based on this analogy. As for feats, apart from Water Dome, Suiton: Bakusui Shōha has greater quantity than anything Gaara showed only at 30% of his Chakra.

Most characters in Pt.2 can destroy a forest? Who besides the main characters :lol any who.

You infer that Kisame's WD =/> a mountain, when we only can see that it's close to the mountains height, not overall size. That's reaching as hell, especially with the anime depiction, and the manga simply showing the height differences :lol

The meteor is obviously bigger than the mountain, what do you mean :lol Gaara's Sand covered the entire portion of the bottom of the meteorite, the bottom of the meteorite > the width of a mountain.

Meaning Gaara's Sand Tsunami >> Kisame's WD width.

Kisame doesn't have more chakra than Gaara. Especially not through author portroyal. Let me know when Kisame performs a bigger feat than fighting multiple kages, then going to fight Madara TWICE. :lol stop bruh.

Lol, you're reaching hard asf by claiming 30% Kisame has shown/can outperform in anything Gaara can. You don't know Gaara at all if you say some dumb shit like that.

 

[NarutoX28]

Dude everyone here understands what you're saying. But what you're saying is speculative inference. You can do whatever you want. I'll take it as a concession. Idk why its so hard to take an L gracefully.

Speculative Inference? That's such a contradictory term, I hope you know what you're actually saying.

Inferences are drawing conclusions on the basis of substantial evidence while speculation consists of unsubstantiated conclusions. My argument wasn't even on the level of speculation when Kishimoto's conception clearly has changed overtime and that's something explicit to every reader, the example of which resides in Boss Summons where the magnitude of the summons were over-exaggerated yet lost value overtime and this is explicitly shown with the majority of Gaara's techniques as well.

I also understand what you're saying, but you're relying on an argument that deliberately ignores authorial intent and logical power-scaling altogether, something Edogawa thoroughly explained which is why your argument is inconceivable.

 

[Edogawa]

Your scaling seems off though. The Land of lightning where the war took place is notable for mountains that reach the clouds...hence village hidden in the clouds with the Raikage's office at the tallest one.

But now I'm looking at Kisame's water dome..Are you telling me Madara's PS would stand in that location and not completely dwarf the mountains and the dome?

All mountains in NV are drawn comparable to each other. Author isn't going to portray the power of PS - mountain cutter differently at each location, because he's illustrating a point to the reader that it can cut any mountain, regardless of whatever location it is in. PS's power didn't change at VOTE - Land of Fire in contrast to PS's power in Land of Lightning.

Dwarf isn't even the right word. Dwarf would mean making thing look like an ant; sun next to earth is description of dwarf. PS wouldn't dwarf the Water Dome if it was there, because PS is only the height of mountain, meaning it would just be as tall as the mountain in that scan and therefore the dome too.

 

[DrProof]

Yeah, but how much deeper it ran is unknown so there's no way to claim that it can cover an entire forest, and not to mention all forests in the Manga have shown to be unequal in size. So I'm pretty sure that Kisame's Water Dome is easily larger than anything Pt. 1 Gaara can manage, and where did he say it takes no effort to make sand of that scale? He said it's no art to create sand out of soil, not that it's no art to create sand of that scale. So there's no way to actually prove he could manipulate much more than he did in that panel.

You have to note that Gaara had Shukaku's chakra as well. So believing that Gaara doing what he did in regards to the Sand Tsunami was any type of chakra taxing is crazy.

I'm positive he could manipulate more than that, due to the fact he did this:

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Gaara channeled his chakra throughout the entire sand tsunami to make sure of Kimimaro's death. That's just as much or equal to the amount he needed to use to create that much sand, and Gaara is obviously not fatigue in any way.

So I stress that Gaara could do what he did at a larger scale in Pt.1

 

[DrProof]

Speculative Inference? That's such a contradictory term, I hope you know what you're actually saying.

Inferences are drawing conclusions on the basis of substantial evidence while speculation consists of unsubstantiated conclusions. My argument wasn't even on the level of speculation when Kishimoto's conception clearly has changed overtime and that's something explicit to every reader, the example of which resides in Boss Summons where the magnitude of the summons were over-exaggerated yet lost value overtime and this is explicitly shown with the majority of Gaara's techniques as well.

I also understand what you're saying, but you're relying on an argument that deliberately ignores authorial intent and logical power-scaling altogether, something Edogawa thoroughly explained which is why your argument is inconceivable.

:lol are you serious?

Speculate = to form an argument off of nothing.

Speculative inference = mocking what inference means with the addition of speculation @ the beginning. Clear as day :lol

I basically said:

Your inference (educated guess), in fact was bullshit, and nothing by an argument formed off of bias, and bullshit. :lol :lol

 

[Jinrou]

All mountains in NV are drawn comparable to each other. Author isn't going to portray the power of PS - mountain cutter differently at each location, because he's illustrating a point to the reader that it can cut any mountain, regardless of whatever location it is in. PS's power didn't change at VOTE - Land of Fire in contrast to PS's power in Land of Lightning.

Dwarf isn't even the right word. Dwarf would mean making thing look like an ant; sun next to earth is description of dwarf. PS wouldn't dwarf the Water Dome if it was there, because PS is only the height of mountain, meaning it would just be as tall as the mountain in that scan and therefore the dome too.

I don't know man..I'm looking at that water dome and seeing the trees clearly visible around it..
The pillars that meteor and Madara's PS completely dwarf (I mean you can barely see them in the PS scan) are > in height compared to regular NV trees.
The scaling looks completely off tbh..

 

[KidGamer65]

You have to note that Gaara had Shukaku's chakra as well. So believing that Gaara doing what he did in regards to the Sand Tsunami was any type of chakra taxing is crazy.

I'm positive he could manipulate more than that, due to the fact he did this:

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Gaara channeled his chakra throughout the entire sand tsunami to make sure of Kimimaro's death. That's just as much or equal to the amount he needed to use to create that much sand, and Gaara is obviously not fatigue in any way.

So I stress that Gaara could do what he did at a larger scale in Pt.1

Gaara himself said that chakra was becoming precious due to the fact that he used so many large scale techniques against Kimimaro. [

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] So no, what he did was taxing to a degree as the only moves that count as large scale that he used in that fight would be his Shukaku Shield and Sand Tsunami, and then the Sand Funeral through the Tsunami.

And why would Gaara manipulating the existing Sand via Sand Funeral be anywhere close to as taxing as actually creating the sand in the first place? It takes far more effort to create than to simply use.

 

[DrProof]

I don't know man..I'm looking at that water dome and seeing the trees clearly visible around it..
The pillars that meteor and Madara's PS completely dwarf (I mean you can barely see them in the PS scan) are > in height compared to regular NV trees.
The scaling looks completely off tbh..

They are though :lol

 

[DrProof]

Gaara himself said that chakra was becoming precious due to the fact that he used so many large scale techniques against Kimimaro. [

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] So no, what he did was taxing to a degree as the only moves that count as large scale that he used in that fight would be his Shukaku Shield and Sand Tsunami, and then the Sand Funeral through the Tsunami.

And why would Gaara manipulating the existing Sand via Sand Funeral be anywhere close to as taxing as actually creating the sand in the first place? It takes far more effort to create than to simply use.

True enough. Sand Funeral < Total Sand Funeral btw. Small scale vs Large scale.

Alright so.

You're right about the sand manipulation, irregardless spreading out chakra to use a gigantic sand funeral would undoubtedly take a chunk of chakra I don't see how that's undeniable.

But that doesn't matter, I really just want to know 100% do you honestly believe Gaara wouldn't be able to break material in the earth to a greater degree than he did vs Kimimaro if he so wanted to. I honestly can't see him not being able too, especially as a said before with him having Shukaku.

 

[KidGamer65]

True enough. Sand Funeral < Total Sand Funeral btw. Small scale vs Large scale.

Alright so.

You're right about the sand manipulation, irregardless spreading out chakra to use a gigantic sand funeral would undoubtedly take a chunk of chakra I don't see how that's undeniable.

But that doesn't matter, I really just want to know 100% do you honestly believe Gaara wouldn't be able to break material in the earth to a greater degree than he did vs Kimimaro if he so wanted to. I honestly can't see him not being able too, especially as a said before with him having Shukaku.

He should be able to considering he used other chakra on his shield, and the total sand funeral and for when he was dragging Kimimaro underground, but the most chakra taxing thing out of that would be the creation of all that sand. I say he can create more, but not a lot more or enough to make any kind of major difference in scale simply because what he did against Kimimaro used enough chakra to the point where he'd be worried about using up more.

 

[NarutoX28]

:lol are you serious?

Speculate = to form an argument off of nothing.

Speculative inference = mocking what inference means with the addition of speculation @ the beginning. Clear as day :lol

I basically said:

Your inference (educated guess), in fact was bullshit, and nothing by an argument formed off of bias, and bullshit. :lol :lol

Yet the term is non-existent, so you're clearing bullshitting me here.

You simply can't claim that an inference which contains substantiated evidence is suddenly baseless. That's not how you logic.

 

[DrProof]

He should be able to considering he used other chakra on his shield, and the total sand funeral and for when he was dragging Kimimaro underground, but the most chakra taxing thing out of that would be the creation of all that sand. I say he can create more, but not a lot more or enough to make any kind of major difference in scale simply because what he did against Kimimaro used enough chakra to the point where he'd be worried about using up more.

And with the addition of that, you don't think Gaara's Sand Tsunami with that extra juice could outsize (in length or width horizontally) Kisame's WD. Not talking about overall mass/size, just the elongating properties.

 

[DrProof]

Yet the term is non-existent, so you're clearing bullshitting me here.

You simply can't claim that an inference which contains substantiated evidence is suddenly baseless. That's not how you logic.

:lol what?

You're really attempting to argue about logic behind simulated word context, when I just said what I meant by my statement in a Kisame vs thread you couldn't admit to taking the L on.

Get out of here. :lol

 

[Edogawa]

Most characters in Pt.2 can destroy a forest? Who besides the main characters :lol any who.

So many to name. I'll give you an example: Hiashi Hyuga. He repelled the Jubi's hand which is larger than that forest Gaara destroyed.

You infer that Kisame's WD =/> a mountain, when we only can see that it's close to the mountains height, not overall size. That's reaching as hell, especially with the anime depiction, and the manga simply showing the height differences

The manga doesn't draw the entire dome and mountain; it draws a contrast proportional to each other.

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The anime depiction, most of the time, draw things smaller than the manga. It has no relevance. Manga has higher authority than the anime, so we should scale it on that.

The meteor is obviously bigger than the mountain, what do you mean Gaara's Sand covered the entire portion of the bottom of the meteorite, the bottom of the meteorite > the width of a mountain.

Really now?

PS and the meteor next to each other:

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PS next to surrounding mountains:

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PS is the size of meteor and PS is also the size of surrounding mountain, meaning the meteor is also the size of mountain. It's just ABC analogy. The bold is just laughable.

Spoiler

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Red is bottom and blue is the width. I trust you can see.

Kisame doesn't have more chakra than Gaara. Especially not through author portroyal. Let me know when Kisame performs a bigger feat than fighting multiple kages, then going to fight Madara TWICE. stop bruh.

But he does. I gave you an analogy: Karin doesn't exaggerate the volume of Gaara's Chakra, but she exaggerates Kisame's. What does this mean? Kisame has more. Those are nice feats for Gaara, but you should be more honest at least.

Gaara vs Edo Kage: Gaara creates volume of sand proportional to the

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, which isn't impressive when you compare how those rocks are dwarfed by PS, mountain sized construct. That he did with the help of Shinobi Alliance, Onoki and KCM Naruto - one fighting Mu and the other fighting Raikage. He gets his Chakra recovered by Tsunade and fights ET Madara with the help of Gokage, so he exerts less Chakra. All in a location benefits him because the environment requires taxes him less Chakra.

 

[KidGamer65]

And with the addition of that, you don't think Gaara's Sand Tsunami with that extra juice could outsize (in length or width horizontally) Kisame's WD. Not talking about overall mass/size, just the elongating properties.

Part 1? No. He'd need a major difference to go from that, to outsize WD in length or width as WD is easily larger than what Gaara did in Part 1.

 

[NarutoX28]

:lol what?

You're really attempting to argue about logic behind simulated word context, when I just said what I meant by my statement in a Kisame vs thread you couldn't admit to taking the L on.

Get out of here. :lol

Doesn't refute the fact that the term you used was bullshit.

You're better off not sugar-coating it and just outright tell me that I'm speculating which is false considering I did provide reasoning for my argument, but whatever floats your boat.

Edit: Just stop Dr. Proof. Just take the L and admit that Kisame has more chakra than Gaara.

 

[DrProof]

Part 1? No. He'd need a major difference to go from that, to outsize WD in length or width as WD is easily larger than what Gaara did in Part 1.

ight. I'll take this L gracefully. Pt.2 Gaara would though and that's all that I was originally arguing vs Evani. So we gooood.

 

[Jugram Haschwalth]

Kisame defeats. Tsunade pretty easy actually. Danzo loses to Kisame his only chance being his seal which won't give him a win.

Ei gets stomped. Raition armor is completely countered. His speed is rendered useless once Kisame uses his water dome.

Oonoki vs Kisame could go either way honestly but im leaning more toward Oonoki due to Jinton being able to erase things upon contact.

Could go either way leaning toward Kisame since he has the chakra advantage.

Mei gets stomped nothing to debate here.

 

[Edogawa]

I don't know man..I'm looking at that water dome and seeing the trees clearly visible around it..
The pillars that meteor and Madara's PS completely dwarf (I mean you can barely see them in the PS scan) are > in height compared to regular NV trees.
The scaling looks completely off tbh..

The trees are bigger than the pillars.

Spoiler

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Kisame, Bee and Raikage are all comparable in height and look how Kisame & Bee are in contrast to the trees compared to Raikage in contrast to the pillars.