[Discussion] Do you accept the theory of evolution?

Do you accept evolution by natural selection?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 36.8%
  • No

    Votes: 18 23.7%
  • Yes, but not natural selection as the only mechanism

    Votes: 4 5.3%
  • Yes, but I think God started it and guided it

    Votes: 14 18.4%
  • Evolution is a conspiracy and a lie

    Votes: 7 9.2%
  • I don't know/don't care

    Votes: 5 6.6%

  • Total voters
    76

licec

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Direct me to a thread that doesn't involve people trying to convince other people that their opinion is correct.

You would rather have a thread devoid of all discussion and debate?

If you seriously believe posting scientific evidence and proofs indicates that someone is "shoving their belief down another's throat" then you are going to have some trouble down the road.

A great deal of time, effort, and money have been spent trying to learn how evolution brought about the existence of these first living organisms (single cells). Although some scientists can make their beliefs sound very logical, the only scientific “proof” that anyone has provided is merely a statement of theory, something like “billions of years of random atomic collisions created life.” That is, scientists have never demonstrated how this first life came into existence from non life by an evolutionary mechanism.
 

Cornson

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A great deal of time, effort, and money have been spent trying to learn how evolution brought about the existence of these first living organisms (single cells). Although some scientists can make their beliefs sound very logical, the only scientific “proof” that anyone has provided is merely a statement of theory, something like “billions of years of random atomic collisions created life.” That is, scientists have never demonstrated how this first life came into existence from non life by an evolutionary mechanism.

the reason for that is simple.

evolution will never be able to explain how life came in to existence and it was never meant to do that either. Evolution explains how life changes over the time span of several generations, nothing more, nothing less.

what you are talking about is abiogenesis, how life came in to existence, that is still only a hypothesis, because we simply don't know the answer to how it was started, we have some ideas about how it could have happened, but we don't have the proof for it (and we might never have it) hence why it's not a theory, but just a hypothesis.
 

NarutoKage2

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So the point of this thread is to ask people if they accept evolution as fact or not, only to condemn those that dont. So shouldn't this thread be titled, "Accept evolution as fact.......or else"!!?

No, the point of this thread is to ascertain fact based, reasons for the objections to evolution. Many people claim that they do not accept evolution based off facts, not off religion and this thread was made as a way to bring those objections to light.

I'm not condemning anyone. If someone does not wish to accept evolution, that's fine. If you want to ridicule this thread, that's fine as well. But don't expect me to respect someone else's ignorance and not ridicule what they state is 'fact' when it clearly isn't.
 

Trollo Lucilfer

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Both evolutionists and creationists accept that changes happen to the genes of isolated populations during relatively small periods of time (micro-evolution). It has been proven by scientists many times, and denying it is just like denying the fact that fish lives in water. The problem is macro-evolution. Now, logically if we accept that in several years (a generation for example), a mutation that allowed an animal to better survive in its environement by changing some of its traits got naturally selected, which is logical, because having more chances of survival, because of that newely acquired trait allows the animal to pass on its genes to the next generations (which insures that the mitation gets passed to the next generation). So mutation after mutation, after millions of years, can turn an animal into a whole different one. That's how single cell organisms became fish, how some fish got out of the water and became amphibians, how some of those amphibians became reptiles, and some of those reptiles became birds while others turned into mammals while the rest turned into other species of reptiles. That is the macro-evolution that creationists refuse to accept because it is not observable since species evolve to new species in millions of years, and not in generations or decades. But Macro-evolution nonetheless, is backed by evidence, and believe me, the evidence is ovelwhelming. It is backed by strong evidences derived from paleontology, evolutionary developmental biology, comparative genomics, genomic phylostratigraphyt and morphology etc...
That's why no real scientist refuses to accept evolution, that's why evolution always wins.
 
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Yubel

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I've never seen proof of any theory of evolution. Just endless speculation on the subject.
 

The Necromancer

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I've never seen proof of any theory of evolution. Just endless speculation on the subject.

Then you clearly have never opened a textbook, or done an internet search for more than 3 minutes.
 

Multiply

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That's how single cell organisms became fish,
Actually, it's theorized that single-cell organisms evolved into multi-cell organisms by banding together(Almost like a group of people) to complete tasks. The weakest cells were separated from the group and died while the strongest survived until they evolved further and further.

I've never seen proof of any theory of evolution. Just endless speculation on the subject.

That is simply your own lack of intelligence.
 

V h o

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Don't really care, it's a theory for a reason.
 

Trollo Lucilfer

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Actually, it's theorized that single-cell organisms evolved into multi-cell organisms by banding together(Almost like a group of people) to complete tasks. The weakest cells were separated from the group and died while the strongest survived until they evolved further and further.
That is quite interesting.

Don't really care, it's a theory for a reason.

When will you people learn the difference between a theory and a scientific theory?
 

V h o

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When will you people learn the difference between a theory and a scientific theory?

"Scientific theory" can still be debunked be a better theory, even then some scientific theories are weak theories...Secondly don't categorize me into "you people" as if I'm some form of ilk.
 

NarutoKage2

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"Scientific theory" can still be debunked be a better theory, even then some scientific theories are weak theories...Secondly don't categorize me into "you people" as if I'm some form of ilk.

A Scientific theory is established after a wide body of supporting facts and evidence, and earns the title after vigorous scrutiny and testing. So its not sth to be taken lightly.

So where do we categorize you.....? Conscientiously and willfully ignorant? Lol
 

V h o

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A Scientific theory is established after a wide body of supporting facts and evidence, and earns the title after vigorous scrutiny and testing. So its not sth to be taken lightly.

Doesn't deny or disprove anything I said.
So where do we categorize you.....? Conscientiously and willfully ignorant? Lol

Lol you want to categorize while I'm asking to not be categorized, especially with negative connotation or blatant insults such as willfully ignorant. I would expect more from you who, I presume, is not "willfully ignorant".
 

Narushima

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"Scientific theory" can still be debunked be a better theory, even then some scientific theories are weak theories...Secondly don't categorize me into "you people" as if I'm some form of ilk.

Yes, and no. Let me illustrate that answer with an example from my field (physics). For example, although classical physics is, in fact, philosophically 'incorrect', it is nevertheless extraordinarily useful (more useful than the modern theories in most scenarios actually), which means two things, namely that

1) It has explanatory power.

2) It has predictive power.

Modern mechanical engineering, for example, is built on classical mechanics, which, technically, is a 'false' theory (albeit a false theory with enormous explanatory and predictive power). Reference frames do not undergo Galilean transformations in a philosophical sense but the 'correct theory,' namely the Lorentz transformation of special relativity tends to the Galilean as the relative velocity of the frames approaches 0. Which means that classical mechanics is an extremely accurate 'approximation' to the true theory for speeds that are relatively small compared to c (speed of light).

This is a very, very common thing in physics. Modern theories almost always 'tend' to older theories in some mathematical limit so that the theories have similar mathematical structure near the limit even if they are philosophically distinguishable. The reason for this is that after Newton, most theories in physics were only accepted as 'theories' if they had some predictive and explanatory power to begin with.

So yes, Aristotle's theories of biology can be 'debunked' as they never had much explanatory and predictive power to begin with. The theory of evolution, on the other hand, has about as much explanatory and predictive power as something like classical mechanics and the odds of it being 'debunked' are probably similar.
 
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licec

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Both evolutionists and creationists accept that changes happen to the genes of isolated populations during relatively small periods of time (micro-evolution). It has been proven by scientists many times, and denying it is just like denying the fact that fish lives in water. The problem is macro-evolution. Now, logically if we accept that in several years (a generation for example), a mutation that allowed an animal to better survive in its environement by changing some of its traits got naturally selected, which is logical, because having more chances of survival, because of that newely acquired trait allows the animal to pass on its genes to the next generations (which insures that the mitation gets passed to the next generation). So mutation after mutation, after millions of years, can turn an animal into a whole different one. That's how single cell organisms became fish, how some fish got out of the water and became amphibians, how some of those amphibians became reptiles, and some of those reptiles became birds while others turned into mammals while the rest turned into other species of reptiles. That is the macro-evolution that creationists refuse to accept because it is not observable since species evolve to new species in millions of years, and not in generations or decades. But Macro-evolution nonetheless, is backed by evidence, and believe me, the evidence is ovelwhelming. It is backed by strong evidences derived from paleontology, evolutionary developmental biology, comparative genomics, genomic phylostratigraphyt and morphology etc...
That's why no real scientist refuses to accept evolution, that's why evolution always wins.

Mutations..are the basis of evolution states the world book encyclopedia. However, it is not just any kind of mutation that evolution requires. Robert Jastrow pointed the slow accumulation of favourable mutations. The environment selects those few mutations that enhance survival, resulting in a series of small changes of life form into another, the origin of a new species. Its is generally accepted that the mutations supposedly involved in evolution are small accidental changes that accumulate over a period of time. Now you said, "mutation that allowed an animal to better survive in its environement". This is totally false. Beneficial mutations are a basis of evolution what proportion of them are beneficial? The is overwhelming agreement on this point among evolutionist. For example Carl Segan declares "most of them are harmful or lethal". It was found in an experiments that, for every succesful or useful mutation, there are many thousands which are harmful". For example when mutated insects were placed in competition with mormal ones the results were always the same. After a greater or lesser number of generations the mutants are eliminated. They could not compete because they were not improved but were degenerate and at a disadvantage. In the long run to be sure mutations make evolution move onward and upward. But do they? Would any process that resulted in the harm more than 999 times out of 1000 be beneficial? If you wanted to build a house,would you hire a builder who, for every correct piece of work, turned out thousands that were defective? And mutation doesnt change living organisms into a completely different organism. The world book of encyclopedia gives an example of what might happen to a beneficial mutation. A plant in a dry area might have a mutant gene that causes it to grow larger and stronger roots. The plant would have a better chance of survival because it roots could absorb more water l. But has anything new appeared? No, its still the same plant. Mutations could change the colour, texture of one's hair but the hair will always remain hair
 

Multiply

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Now you said, "mutation that allowed an animal to better survive in its environement". This is totally false. Beneficial mutations are a basis of evolution what proportion of them are beneficial? The is overwhelming agreement on this point among evolutionist. For example Carl Segan declares "most of them are harmful or lethal". It was found in an experiments that, for every succesful or useful mutation, there are many thousands which are harmful". For example when mutated insects were placed in competition with mormal ones the results were always the same. After a greater or lesser number of generations the mutants are eliminated. They could not compete because they were not improved but were degenerate and at a disadvantage. In the long run to be sure mutations make evolution move onward and upward. But do they? Would any process that resulted in the harm more than 999 times out of 1000 be beneficial? If you wanted to build a house,would you hire a builder who, for every correct piece of work, turned out thousands that were defective? And mutation doesnt change living organisms into a completely different organism. The world book of encyclopedia gives an example of what might happen to a beneficial mutation. A plant in a dry area might have a mutant gene that causes it to grow larger and stronger roots. The plant would have a better chance of survival because it roots could absorb more water l. But has anything new appeared? No, its still the same plant. Mutations could change the colour, texture of one's hair but the hair will always remain hair

Just stop my man. This excerpt proves that you truly don't know what you're talking about. You're drawing the wrong conclusions.
 

Yubel

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Then you clearly have never opened a textbook, or done an internet search for more than 3 minutes.
It's all speculation "oh our skulls are kiiinddaaaa similar to apes so we must have been apes -insert a fantasy story of how we evolved and preach in school-
 

V h o

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Yes, and no. Let me illustrate that answer with an example from my field (physics). For example, although classical physics is, in fact, philosophically 'incorrect', it is nevertheless extraordinarily useful (more useful than the modern theories in most scenarios actually), which means two things, namely that

1) It has explanatory power.

2) It has predictive power.

Modern mechanical engineering, for example, is built on classical mechanics, which, technically, is a 'false' theory (albeit a false theory with enormous explanatory and predictive power). Reference frames do not undergo Galilean transformations in a philosophical sense but the 'correct theory,' namely the Lorentz transformation of special relativity tends to the Galilean as the relative velocity of the frames approaches 0. Which means that classical mechanics is an extremely accurate 'approximation' to the true theory for speeds that are relatively small compared to c (speed of light).

This is a very, very common thing in physics. Modern theories almost always 'tend' to older theories in some mathematical limit so that the theories have similar mathematical structure near the limit even if they are philosophically distinguishable. The reason for this is that after Newton, most theories in physics were only accepted as 'theories' if they had some predictive and explanatory power to begin with.

So yes, Aristotle's theories of biology can be 'debunked' as they never had much explanatory and predictive power to begin with. The theory of evolution, on the other hand, has about as much explanatory and predictive power as something like classical mechanics and the odds of it being 'debunked' are probably similar.

So do you believe the predictability of evolution involves micro-evolution, macro-evolution, or both? Also genetic drift, selection, or both?
 

Narushima

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So do you believe the predictability of evolution involves micro-evolution, macro-evolution, or both? Also genetic drift, selection, or both?

The distinction between 'microevolution and 'macroevolution' is more a creationist one than a scientific one. 'Microevolution' operates through literally every possible mechanism involved in so called 'macroevolution' with the sole exception of speciation (correct me if I am wrong on this, resident biologists of NB). That is, 'microevolution' works through selection, genetic drift, genetic flow and mutation (beneficial mutations are very trivial to demonstrate for microorganisms in the lab but of course that is 'microevolution' according to creationists).

Actually 'speciation' is not so much a mechanism of evolution as it is an outcome of evolution. Evolution is not a discrete process like some people persistently seem to believe, there is no discontinuity between 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution.' If so called 'microevolution' can produce sub-species as different as the great Dane and the Chihuahua, or the wolf and the coyote to take a natural example (I think biologists categorize those two organisms as different species despite the viability of fertile offspring but lets not get into the whole technical what is a species debate) tell me exactly why you find the idea of speciation so difficult to contemplate?
 

V h o

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The distinction between 'microevolution and 'macroevolution' is more a creationist one than a scientific one. 'Microevolution' operates through literally every possible mechanism involved in so called 'macroevolution' with the sole exception of speciation (correct me if I am wrong on this, resident biologists of NB). That is, 'microevolution' works through selection, genetic drift, genetic flow and mutation (beneficial mutations are very trivial to demonstrate for microorganisms in the lab but of course that is 'microevolution' according to creationists).


Actually 'speciation' is not so much a mechanism of evolution as it is an outcome of evolution. Evolution is not a discrete process like some people persistently seem to believe, there is no discontinuity between 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution.' If so called 'microevolution' can produce sub-species as different as the great Dane and the Chihuahua, or the wolf and the coyote to take a natural example (I think biologists categorize those two organisms as different species despite the viability of fertile offspring but lets not get into the whole technical what is a species debate) tell me exactly why you find the idea of speciation so difficult to contemplate?

So both. Also I don't find the idea of speciation hard to understand.

I'm just seeing your point more so than anything.
 

NarutoKage2

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Doesn't deny or disprove anything I said.


Lol you want to categorize while I'm asking to not be categorized, especially with negative connotation or blatant insults such as willfully ignorant. I would expect more from you who, I presume, is not "willfully ignorant".
Well its undeniably possible that an alternative theory MAY disprove it, but nobody has of yet been able to produce one.
Mutations..are the basis of evolution states the world book encyclopedia. However, it is not just any kind of mutation that evolution requires. Robert Jastrow pointed the slow accumulation of favourable mutations. The environment selects those few mutations that enhance survival, resulting in a series of small changes of life form into another, the origin of a new species. Its is generally accepted that the mutations supposedly involved in evolution are small accidental changes that accumulate over a period of time. Now you said, "mutation that allowed an animal to better survive in its environement". This is totally false. Beneficial mutations are a basis of evolution what proportion of them are beneficial? The is overwhelming agreement on this point among evolutionist. For example Carl Segan declares "most of them are harmful or lethal". It was found in an experiments that, for every succesful or useful mutation, there are many thousands which are harmful". For example when mutated insects were placed in competition with mormal ones the results were always the same. After a greater or lesser number of generations the mutants are eliminated. They could not compete because they were not improved but were degenerate and at a disadvantage. In the long run to be sure mutations make evolution move onward and upward. But do they? Would any process that resulted in the harm more than 999 times out of 1000 be beneficial? If you wanted to build a house,would you hire a builder who, for every correct piece of work, turned out thousands that were defective? And mutation doesnt change living organisms into a completely different organism. The world book of encyclopedia gives an example of what might happen to a beneficial mutation. A plant in a dry area might have a mutant gene that causes it to grow larger and stronger roots. The plant would have a better chance of survival because it roots could absorb more water l. But has anything new appeared? No, its still the same plant. Mutations could change the colour, texture of one's hair but the hair will always remain hair
The majority of mutations are harmful, so they are by default:
-detrimental to survival
-detrimental to gene replication
But those odd few, that help improve the odds for gene replication and survival are the ones that get 'selected' in the gene pool. Stating that there are a 100 bad mutations and one good mutation doesn't matter, what matters is that the beneficial change survives, and it does. Is this an inefficient builder? No, because once the beneficial change occurs, natural selection comes in and allows it to supersede other potential replicators in the gene pool. A positive change, is by definition one which allows the replicator to become better at replication than other potential replicators.
To give an example of a beneficial 'change' read up the experiment on the e coli bacterium experiment where one population of bacteria exploded in its numbers after 45 000 generations in the lab(conducted by the scientist Lenski). So no, its false for you to state that there's no positive, beneficial mutation observed when thats exactly what was observed with the coli bacterium. The 'descendants' became gradually better than their ancestors, through separate mutations, slowly and steadily prior to the one major leap that I mentioned.

Another thing about that experiment, and to address your point about 'new' things appearing. When a single, marginally beneficial change has occurred within a population_, then the probability for a much more dramatic change for the offspring carrying the beneficial change is much greater than it was for the ancestor. Basically this is also why probability and stastical calculations used by creationists are flawed, because changed conditions completely alter the scenario for the NEXT subsequent, larger change. Please note here that I'm talking about entire populations over thousands of generations, and how cumulative change can actually work towards increasing the likelihood of more dramatic change, as demonstrated in the lenski experiment(which took twenty years BTW).
So logical inference shows us that not only is large change over time(time,basically in evolution means number of generations) inevitable, it actually becomes exponential when added on top of previously introduced change(mutation).

And all this beneficial and positive mutation was directly observed.
 
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