Rinnegan Sasuke vs SM Hashirama

[KCN]

@ @ bold of course no, but is my veins as deep in my body as my heart.

@ @Red: No because I am not the author of Naruto thus I'm not a credible source in the matter, but also because we have seen him at such point in time where it would be useful, yet hasn't done it once.

@ @Blue "He has never been shown thus, won't be allowed in the versus section of the Narutobase forums " Ad nofanficium
Really? Be better. There is a reason I put "Never lose all credibility." as a status. Technically this is all fanfic, but It is all about what is the most probabable outcome based off what the author has provided us.

Your fanfic: Teleports his Heart out
My fanfic: He regenerates a new heart.
Someone else: Sasuke uses Susanoo to use a huge fireball
another user: Hashirama use a huge Suiton to counter it and then he uses FTG to get close.
Someother person: FTG!? All of this is up for discussion but FTG?
Troll: Ad ignorantiam.

So do you see why you stick to Manga feats, and leave to fanfic feats out of the versus section.

Alright, we've gotta give it up for this one. Lmfao.

 

[solorflare99]

I think this post is alluding to the fact the insight of the Sharingan allowed Sasuke to see things within the blood coursing through his veins. It's be using used as evidence for Sasuke being able to see Hashirama's organs. ​

...Eh​

He has a claim: Amenotejikara can remove Hashirma's heart because it is a space-time ninjutsu.​

True—could be attributed to the author—but true nevertheless. ​

Yes and I'm alluding to it not being good evidence.

Yeah he has a claim but it doesn't fly, when my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it. This discussion will get us no where without concrete evidence. Maybe the author never let it happen with the intention of it not being possible.......or maybe he didn't. Now where do we go from here? It just turns into fanfic vs. fanfic.

 

[Waltz]

Which is once again you twisting the definition of Sasuke's jutsu to do things it has never proven capable of doing.

Sasuke can perceive organs with Sharingan. Yet he can't light someone's insides on fire with Amaterasu.
-Kakashi can perceive organs with Sharingan. Yet Kamui can't warp someone's organs out of their body.
-Minato has Space Time Ninjutsu, yet he can't warp anything out of anyone's body.

"He has never been shown to do it, therefore he can't" - Ad ignorantiam.​

Hashirama is in his radius, but Hashirama's organs are in his body, thus off limits to Sasuke's jutsu.

But..​

Are they components in his body that are absolutely needed for him to survive? Yes.

...Lol.​

 

[Waltz]

@Solorflare99: Fanfic you say?

✓ Amenotejikara is as space-time jutsu
✓ Amenotejikara allows Sacue to warp objects
✓ The Sharingan can see at a cellular level
✓ Hashirama's heart is an object that cannot defy Space-Time curvature


​

 

[KCN]

Um..Because..Amenotejikara isn't a Space time Ninjutsu and Sasuke couldn't use it to remove Hashirama's heart?

Oh wait---Perhaps Hashirama's heart is composed of Princesssu Kant-Chan's pixie dust as well making it immune to the curvature of space and time. ..Lol.​

Hashrama's organs are not only inside his body, but they're physically attached within him. You're going to have to prove that Ameno has the ability to ignore the exterior and provide evidence for it having such pinpoint precision in bypassing Hashirama's entire outer body. Because from what I've seen, such an ability would of come in handy against Naruto whom he was fixed on killing. Even Madara. It's as clear as day he cannot do this and if you're resorting to such baseless claims it only leads to me to believe you don't actually think Sasuke wins this fight.

 

[Waltz]

Hashrama's organs are not only inside his body

such an ability would of come in handy against Naruto whom he was fixed on killing. Even Madara. It's as clear as day he cannot do this and if you're resorting to such baseless claims it only leads to me to believe you don't actually think Sasuke wins this fight.

@ Underlined: I'll repost what Varrah said:

"True—could be attributed to the author—but true nevertheless."​

 

[solorflare99]

@Solorflare99: Fanfic you say?

✓ Amenotejikara is as space-time jutsu
✓ Amenotejikara allows Sacue to warp objects
✓ The Sharingan can see at a cellular level
✓ Hashirama's heart is an object that cannot defy Space-Time curvature


..Fack me...well whadda' you know.

​

X Ameno has never been shown to detach
X Sharingan hasn't been shown to see as far into the human body as to a heart nor through armor.
X Hashirama heart is attach to his body

And Yes your claim is indeed fanfic. Dubious fanfic at best.

 

[Waltz]

X Ameno has never been shown to detach
X Sharingan hasn't been shown to see as far into the human body as to a heart nor through armor.
X Hashirama heart is attach to his body

And Yes your claim is indeed fanfic. Dubious fanfic at best.

@1: True..but it freely warps and relocates objecs in space-time tho'.

space-time
The four dimensions in which all objects are located and all events occur, viewed as a single and continuous framework for existence.

@2) True----but the Sharingan sees at a cellular level...and the Heart is an organ and an organ is made of much smaller: tissues and tissues are made of the much smaller: cells.

@3) Yep, but it's still apart of the large puzzle that makes up "Hashirama".
​

 

[KCN]

> conveniently ignores part when I ask for evidence

Lol, just hold this L and admit you cannot back up such outlandish claims.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

"He has never been shown to do it, therefore he can't" - Ad ignorantiam.​

But..​

...Lol.​

Sorry pal. When you give me real evidence, come at me. Until then, take the trollish behavior to someone who cares enough to entertain it. I've already addressed this and everything else you could possibly muster. No reason for me to continue replying to you.

Them being components of his body doesn't change a thing I've said.

 

[Waltz]

You're going to have to prove that Ameno has the ability to ignore the exterior and provide evidence for it having such pinpoint precision in bypassing Hashirama's entire outer body.

Sorry pal. When you give me real evidence, come at me.

Alright, if you wish.

✓ Sasuke's eyes pinpoint's Amenotejikara targets
✓ Sasuke has the Sharingan
✓ The Sharingan grants visual at the cellular level
✓ Amenotejikara is as space-time jutsu
✓ Amenotejikara allows Sacue to warp objects
✓ Hashirama's heart is an object that cannot defy Space-Time curvature​

 

[Varrah]

Yes and I'm alluding to it not being good evidence.

That's up to those debating this. They're ways to proof this or disprove this though.​

Yeah he has claim but it doesn't fly.

This is up those debating this match-up.​

When my claim is that it hasn't been shown and he has yet to show it.

Yeah I understand this, but this is why Waltz called comments like this arguments from ignorance: you're arguing for the falseness that Amenotejikara cannot teleport Hashirama's heart because there is no evidence or proof of Amenotejikara working in this matter. While you can do this, you're arguing in the case of a negative claim that since Amenotejikara working in this matter has not been proved it is false. The lack of evidence for Amenotejikara working in this matter does not constitute as sufficient evidence against it.


These types of arguments also violate the burden of proof construct of logic by attempting to shift the burden of proof unto Waltz implicating that he has the responsibility to disprove your claim or provide support of Amenotejikara teleporting Hashirama's heart. If Waltz does not accept the responsibility to disprove your claim or provide support for the contradicting claim, you, and any others who think this way, would have to fallaciously assume that there is no evidence for the contradicting claim. [

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This discussion will get us no where without concrete evidence.

Concrete evidence only gets a person so far, they need to be able to evaluate arguments generally.​

Maybe the author never let it happen with the intention of it not being possible.......or maybe he didn't.

Agreed.​

Now where do we go from here?

Up to those debating this matter.​

It just turns into fanfic vs. fanfic.

Still haven't past Gehrman on Bloodborne yet.​

 

[Haizaki]

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Striking only happens after you react. If they were too slow to react to Juubito's speed, he'd be easily evading their strikes. It accounts for reaction speed because you need to react to do anything, including attack. If they reacted and tagged Juubito at the same time, it means that their reaction speeds are equal, and that the speeds of their Avatars are also equal. If Naruto was faster, he would've struck first. Vice versa as well.

I was supposed to respond lol..Forgot.

Agreed with the striking thing but not in all cases. You're very wrong with the bold though..Movement being made in the bottom left of this panel

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reaction being made at the same time via striking

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are you going to conclude they have equal reaction speed? That's clearly wron

Didn't Sasuke even have the KCC and Senjutsu to boost his reactions?

 

[KeyofDestiny]

Alright, if you wish.

✓ Sasuke's eyes pinpoint's Amenotejikara targets
✓ Sasuke has the Sharingan
✓ The Sharingan grants visual at the cellular level
✓ Amenotejikara is as space-time jutsu
✓ Amenotejikara allows Sacue to warp objects
✓ Hashirama's heart is an object that cannot defy Space-Time curvature​

Oh? Since we are just repeating ourselves now, I'll just follow suit. It's clear that you are trolling at this point. No one can be this daft.

Spoiler

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The contents of the spoiler should tell you my answer. :lol Amenotejikara lets Sasuke enter other dimensions and it lets him teleport to any location in his radius or teleport anything in his radius wherever he pleases. Hashirama is in his radius, but Hashirama's organs are inside of his body. Separate from the outside area which is what Sasuke can warp.

I really hope you aren't going to take advantage of what Ameno's ability is listed as to say Sasuke can start warping people's insides out of their bodies, something no teleporter has ever shown to do. Shin grabbed a hold of Sasuke's blade and Sasuke was only able to warp away without it. [

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] Why would we give Ameno nonsensical abilities such as removing the opponent's organs? Lmfao. I honestly feel like I'm being trolled here.

I'm expecting you to throw:

-Conjecture.
-Ad ignorantium.
-argumentum ad ignorantiam

In my face though, despite how unsupported and crazy such a claim is,

Do they "make him up"? Not necessarily, depending on what exactly you mean. Are they components in his body that are absolutely needed for him to survive? Yes.

Which is once again you twisting the definition of Sasuke's jutsu to do things it has never proven capable of doing. Ameno lets Sasuke teleport things in his radius. Hashirama is in his radius, but Hashirama's organs are in his body, thus off limits to Sasuke's jutsu. Being able to perceive them visually doesn't mean squat as it does not change their location.

-Sasuke can perceive organs with Sharingan. Yet he can't light someone's insides on fire with Amaterasu.
-Kakashi can perceive organs with Sharingan. Yet Kamui can't warp someone's organs out of their body.
-Minato has Space Time Ninjutsu, yet he can't warp anything out of anyone's body.
-Sasuke was trying his hardest to kill Naruto, yet when he used Ameno he resorted to attacking instead of this "warp heart out of chest BS".
-Nagato can't pull someone out of Susanoo using Bansho Tennin.

Though seeing the BS you've resorted to, I won't be surprised if you try and support these claims as well.

But keep going. It's amusing to see you grasp at whatever straws you can find to try and make your stance seem more valid than it really is. The sad part about it all is that you probably believe that what you are saying is legit.

Them being components of his body doesn't change a thing I've said.

Which is once again you twisting the definition of Sasuke's jutsu to do things it has never proven capable of doing.

Sasuke can perceive organs with Sharingan. Yet he can't light someone's insides on fire with Amaterasu.
-Kakashi can perceive organs with Sharingan. Yet Kamui can't warp someone's organs out of their body.
-Minato has Space Time Ninjutsu, yet he can't warp anything out of anyone's body.

 

[KCN]

For sasuke to look at his heart he'd have to be looking at Hashirama's exterior... I'm asking you to prove how Sasuke could warp his insides by completely ignoring his outer body.

 

[solorflare99]

@1: True..but it freely warps and relocates objecs in space-time tho'.



@2) True----but the Sharingan sees at a cellular level...and the Heart is an organ and an organ is made of much smaller: tissues and tissues are made of the much smaller: cells.

@3) Yep, but it's still apart of the large puzzle that makes up "Hashirama".
​

1 true but "Ameno has never been shown to detach" when "it freely warps and relocates objecs in space-time "
2 true but "Sharingan hasn't been shown to see as far into the human body as to a heart nor through armor"
3 true but refer to 1

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

I was supposed to respond lol..Forgot.

Agreed with the striking thing but not in all cases. You're very wrong with the bold though..Movement being made in the bottom left of this panel

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reaction being made at the same time via striking

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are you going to conclude they have equal reaction speed? That's clearly wron

Bad example since Gai and Lee were clearly aiming to hit at the same exact time. Naruto and Sasuke tracked him individually, and both attacked individually yet they reacted and struck at the same exact time. Equal reaction speed is needed for that.

Konoha Tsumuji Senpuu
Leaf Coiling Whirlwind
Lee and Guy's dual taijutsu attack.
A spinning roundhouse whirlwind attack with very fast spin.
A vanguard whirlwind just like a surging shock which grow hot the battlefield.

DB 4.

Didn't Sasuke even have the KCC and Senjutsu to boost his reactions?

None of the Shinobi got a speed boost from Naruto's cloak, and he never had Senjutsu to begin with. Only his Susanoo did.

And don't mention Naruto getting a massive speed boost every time he uses the cloak, because I could use the same logic and say that he should get that same dramatic strength boost whenever he uses KCM, but no such thing has ever been shown for him. All of the cloaks enhancements were highlighted in the chapters they were shown in, and all that was shown was:

-Defense when Naruto is controlling the chakra.
-Massive boost in power.

If there was a boost, it's pretty much unnoticeable, so that'd still put their reactions on the same tier.

Besides, the cloak wasn't even on him during chapter 650.

 

[solorflare99]

That's up to those debating this. They're ways to proof this or disprove this though.​

This is up those debating this match-up.​

Yeah I understand this, but this is why Waltz called comments like this arguments from ignorance: you're arguing for the falseness that Amenotejikara cannot teleport Hashirama's heart because there is no evidence or proof of Amenotejikara working in this matter. While you can do this, you're arguing in the case of a negative claim that since Amenotejikara working in this matter has not been proved it is false. The lack of evidence for Amenotejikara working in this matter does not constitute as sufficient evidence against it.


These types of arguments also violate the burden of proof construct of logic by attempting to shift the burden of proof unto Waltz implicating that he has the responsibility to disprove your claim or provide support of Amenotejikara teleporting Hashirama's heart. If Waltz does not accept the responsibility to disprove your claim or provide support for the contradicting claim, you would have to fallaciously assume that there is no evidence for the contradicting claim. [

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] ​

Concrete evidence only gets a person so far, they need to be able to evaluate arguments generally.​

Agreed.​

Up to those debating this matter.​

Still haven't past Gehrman on Bloodborne yet.​

But there aren't ways to prove it nor disprove(without a doubt). Which is the whole point of me not even discussing the argument. To say I haven't proved it is false would be to imply that it has been proven true, which it has not. If I was doing this for points then maybe I'd take into consideration his argument, but I'm not. If I was then I would come up with not only why he is wrong but a counter to his statement but I wont. He I'm not here to prove him wrong, but to prove that he isn't right(hopefully you get what I mean). I don't debate fanfic. fanfic. In the end we won't have an outcome that fits in the situation. It's not like it is one person debating one other, but an open debate on who would win. We could have many different outcome but it gets to a point where it isn't even "Rinnegan Sasuke vs SM Hashirama" but two people with similar qualities to the respective characters. There will never be a general agreement amongst the population. That is what I strive for. Who would win between fighters in their stories. Characters like Shikamaru use intelligence to keep up with other characters that physically outclass him. That is taken away from him when you argue characters will due a certain feat based off fanfic.

 

[Waltz]

For sasuke to look at his heart he'd have to be looking at Hashirama's exterior... I'm asking you to prove how Sasuke could warp his insides by completely ignoring his outer body.

Because it does not follow the same principle as Kamui which is required to warp the outer portions first, instead it allows him to warp any visual targeted object in an instant.​

1 true but "Ameno has never been shown to detach" when "it freely warps and relocates objecs in space-time "
2 true but "Sharingan hasn't been shown to see as far into the human body as to a heart nor through armor"
3 true but refer to 1

Lether, Rinse, Repeat.

Anything that can warp space and time can detach a heart from it's arteries.

Your answer to this question will be the final resolve:

If the Sharingan can see through an arm which is comprised many various atom's and molecules, A solid portion of a cave [

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] that is comprised of many various atoms and molecules; putting personal feeling aside would you agree that it could likewise see through the many various atoms and molecules which comprise a coating of armor? ​

 

[Xlad]

Really interesting...