Rinnegan Sasuke vs SM Hashirama

[LuckyMan]

No you just got shitted on simple. Your banned what are you doing on NB you need the break because you rage out when you get shitted on simple. Also keep the insults coming im going to make sure your IP is banned next.

Damn you squealing on niccas? These debates aren't that serious bruh. We all do this for fun. Why you want him banned so bad?

 

[Chīkara]

No you just got shitted on simple. Your banned what are you doing on NB you need the break because you rage out when you get shitted on simple. Also keep the insults coming im going to make sure your IP is banned next.

Damn, you tripping bro.​

 

[Apêx1]

Did you missed when I said "non-boosted" Sasuke? All you showed was Sasuke's feats with Rikudo's chakra.

Naruto's sensing and reaction speed got a far greater boost then Sasuke's reaction and striking speed did. You'd have to scale down Naruto more then Sasuke, and even then said RSM cloaked Naruto scales down to BSM Naruto while Sasuke scales down to non-Rikudo Sasuke. KCM Nardo reacted to v2 Ay. BM>KCM and added SM makes his reaction speed that much more then Hashirama. Hashirama is most definitely not reacting if Naruto didn't.

 

[Rιver]

Damn you squealing on niccas? These debates aren't that serious bruh. We all do this for fun. Why you want him banned so bad?

And people ask me why I closed the thread.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

Naruto's sensing and reaction speed got a far greater boost then Sasuke's reaction and striking speed did. You'd have to scale down Naruto more then Sasuke, and even then said RSM cloaked Naruto scales down to BSM Naruto while Sasuke scales down to non-Rikudo Sasuke. KCM Nardo reacted to v2 Ay. BM>KCM and added SM makes his reaction speed that much more then Hashirama. Hashirama is most definitely not reacting if Naruto didn't.

Wrong.

1. Bold is a baseless assumption.
2. RSM Naruto does not scale down to BSM Naruto. Not sure why people keep saying this. Hagoromo's chakra is what lets him enter RSM as it contains some kind of Nature Energy or Senjutsu. Subtract that, and Naruto is left with no type of Senjutsu. That is BM.
3. SM Hashirama matches EMS Madara, who is either on par or faster than EMS Sasuke who matches BSM Naruto.
4. Naruto reacted by turning around.

So yes, Hashirama can react.

 

[Chīkara]

Did you missed when I said "non-boosted" Sasuke? All you showed was Sasuke's feats with Rikudo's chakra.

It's instant speed ? Which is given with his rinnegan.. To what degree do you want to ''downgrade'' it

 

[LuckyMan]

And people ask me why I closed the thread.

Cant you as OP delete posts or does it require premium? Should have just removed his posts if possible. Everyone gets called names or dumb in debates at some point so I don't see that as the reason he did it. Maybe it was to avoid the confrontation?

 

[Apêx1]

Wrong.

1. Bold is a baseless assumption.
2. RSM Naruto does not scale down to BSM Naruto. Not sure why people keep saying this. Hagoromo's chakra is what lets him enter RSM as it contains some kind of Nature Energy or Senjutsu. Subtract that, and Naruto is left with no type of Senjutsu. That is BM.
3. SM Hashirama matches EMS Madara, who is either on par or faster than EMS Sasuke who matches BSM Naruto.
4. Naruto reacted by turning around.

So yes, Hashirama can react.

1. Most definetely not an assumption. DB states his overall SM and sensing etc. are even superior to Jin Madara's. So unless you think normal SM=Juubi Senjutsu then my point clearly stands and his newer SM>>>

2. Wrong. The Sage boost Naruto receives is dramatically superior to his non-rikudo sage boost. Take away the Rikudo chakra enhancing his new SM and you're left with his prior SM version. So he's still BSM.

3. How exactly is EMS Madara comparable to BM naruto? He is around v2 Ay speed which is dramatically slower then BM speed. Not sure how you came to the conclusion EMS Madara>EMS Sasuke either, only thing I recall is Sage Madara shitting on him, which is >>EMS Madara.
4. But reacted regardless. And that was KCM who is much slower then BM who is much slower then BSM.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

1. Most definetely not an assumption. DB states his overall SM and sensing etc. are even superior to Jin Madara's. So unless you think normal SM=Juubi Senjutsu then my point clearly stands and his newer SM>>>

And that is because of the chakra that both sides got. Naruto's sensing getting a boost from Hagoromo's chakra is irrelevant when Sasuke gets boosted by the same amount of chakra.

2. Wrong. The Sage boost Naruto receives is dramatically superior to his non-rikudo sage boost. Take away the Rikudo chakra enhancing his new SM and you're left with his prior SM version. So he's still BSM.

Wrong again. Sage Mode is not an internal power, so there is no reason why it'd be added on to Naruto's current powers. Sage Mode is entered by taking in energy from the atmosphere. He doesn't do that in RSM because he already has Hagoromo's chakra inside him, thus RSM is not Senjutsu from atmosphere+Hagoromo's Senjutsu Chakra+Kurama. It is only the latter two.

3. How exactly is EMS Madara comparable to BM naruto? He is around v2 Ay speed which is dramatically slower then BM speed. Not sure how you came to the conclusion EMS Madara>EMS Sasuke either, only thing I recall is Sage Madara shitting on him, which is >>EMS Madara.

1. Blind Madara is faster than EMS Sasuke in all areas based on what he did to SM Naruto and Sai. That is without Sage Mode, combine that with the fact that they have the same choku tomoe and Sasuke and Madara are at least on par in reaction speed.

2. Why are you referring to Shunshin speed? I'm referring to movement speed.

3. Sage Madara isn't necessarily>>EMS Madara in reaction speed considering EMS precog and Sage Sensing have shown to be on par when it comes to precognitive abilities, based on what Sasuke and Naruto did to Juubito in chapter 650. The only difference is that Sage Sensing is sensing, so it doesn't rely on vision.

4. But reacted regardless. And that was KCM who is much slower then BM.

Talking about RSM Naruto vs. Ameno. Not sure why you are mentioning KCM nor is BM far faster than KCM. Nothing supports that notion.

 

[KingHashirama]

Hashirama wrecks a Sasuke who probably won't show a better showcasing of the rinnegan than Nagato.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Naruto's sensing and reaction speed got a far greater boost then Sasuke's reaction and striking speed did. You'd have to scale down Naruto more then Sasuke, and even then said RSM cloaked Naruto scales down to BSM Naruto while Sasuke scales down to non-Rikudo Sasuke. KCM Nardo reacted to v2 Ay. BM>KCM and added SM makes his reaction speed that much more then Hashirama. Hashirama is most definitely not reacting if Naruto didn't.

Proof for the bold?
Sasuke comes down to his EMS version, which blind Madara laughed at with Hashi's SM.

 

[Lord Tywin]

It's instant speed ? Which is given with his rinnegan.. To what degree do you want to ''downgrade'' it

Wot? Sasuke without Rikudo's chakra goes back to His EMS and his speed and reaction feats from then. Which he got laughed on by Blind Madara. His teleportation is instant, so is Tobirama's. Difference is in the reaction speed and striking speed, which Hashirama's trumps Non-rikudo Sasuke in.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Yall need to chill the hell out though. We debate and insult each other all the time. Nothing serious. Debates get dull without dissing.

 

[Apêx1]

And that is because of the chakra that both sides got. Naruto's sensing getting a boost from Hagoromo's chakra is irrelevant when Sasuke gets boosted by the same amount of chakra.

Db4 entry says attaining juubi power is the same as the 6 paths power. Naruto only has half, so the only explanation as to why hhis sensing>Juubi Jin's is him having a boosted SM. Naruto's sensing getting boosted can't be compared to sasuke's boost from Hagromo. Heightened sensing would add to his reaction speed, so Naruto's reaction speed would be >Sasuke's unless Naruto wasn't using his sensing.


[Quotw]Wrong again. Sage Mode is not an internal power, so there is no reason why it'd be added on to Naruto's current powers. Sage Mode is entered by taking in energy from the atmosphere. He doesn't do that in RSM because he already has Hagoromo's chakra inside him, thus RSM is not Senjutsu from atmosphere+Hagoromo's Senjutsu Chakra+Kurama. It is only the latter two.[/quote]

Yet his sensing > Juubi Jin's while Sasuke who is using Hagromo's senjutsu chakra cannot sense. Without an atmospheric link you don't sense in SM. The only reason people sense with senjutsu is if they have an atmospheric link, hence Jugo and Sasuke don't sense, while Naruto has a passive sensing which is only available to Sage users.

1. Blind Madara is faster than EMS Sasuke in all areas based on what he did to SM Naruto and Sai. That is without Sage Mode, combine that with the fact that they have the same choku tomoe and Sasuke and Madara are at least on par in reaction speed.

2. Why are you referring to Shunshin speed? I'm referring to movement speed.

3. Sage Madara isn't necessarily>>EMS Madara in reaction speed considering EMS precog and Sage Sensing have shown to be on par when it comes to precognitive abilities, based on what Sasuke and Naruto did to Juubito in chapter 650. The only difference is that Sage Sensing is sensing, so it doesn't rely on vision.




Talking about RSM Naruto vs. Ameno. Not sure why you are mentioning KCM nor is BM far faster than KCM. Nothing supports that notion.

Fair enough, but that Madara was still boosted by Rikudo chakra despite not having his Rinnegan. The rinmegan only manifested due to his already present mix of Asura and Indra DNA. Not seeing how Hashirama can fuks with that particular Madara. And still don't see what's putting Sasuke on Naruto's level of reaction soeed at all. Onoy thing they have going for them is running speed.

2. My bad

3. Sage mode still gives crazy reflexes and greater physical ability whoch correlates with greater speed.

4. BM Naruto deflected 5 tbb's with his shunshin if I recall correctly. Nothing KCM has shown even begins to compare to that speed.

 

[KeyofDestiny]

Db4 entry says attaining juubi power is the same as the 6 paths power. Naruto only has half, so the only explanation as to why hhis sensing>Juubi Jin's is him having a boosted SM. Naruto's sensing getting boosted can't be compared to sasuke's boost from Hagromo. Heightened sensing would add to his reaction speed, so Naruto's reaction speed would be >Sasuke's unless Naruto wasn't using his sensing.

Already knew the first part, and the second part is irrelevant. Naruto having sensing isn't automatic proof that he reacts faster than Sasuke does because Sasuke has Sharingan precogntion. Not to mention Naruto's reaction speed being superior to Sasuke's isn't the point.

Besides, not even sure how this matters. Naruto having better reflexes than Sasuke doesn't change the fact that their boost was equal, so any gaps in speed that existed before will be the same after.

Yet his sensing > Juubi Jin's while Sasuke who is using Hagromo's senjutsu chakra cannot sense. Without an atmospheric link you don't sense in SM. The only reason people sense with senjutsu is if they have an atmospheric link, hence Jugo and Sasuke don't sense, while Naruto has a passive sensing which is only available to Sage users.

Sasuke isn't in Sage Mode, Naruto is. People with Sage Mode can sense chakra. Where was any of the bold ever stated?

Fair enough, but that Madara was still boosted by Rikudo chakra despite not having his Rinnegan. The rinmegan only manifested due to his already present mix of Asura and Indra DNA. Not seeing how Hashirama can fuks with that particular Madara. And still don't see what's putting Sasuke on Naruto's level of reaction soeed at all. Onoy thing they have going for them is running speed.

Now that I think about it, you might have a point here, but considering his Susanoo showed no significant boost, I don't see why his physical abilities would have a significant enough boost for the comparison to be valid, especially when he was blind with no Sage Sensing or EMS.

And:

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They reacted just as fast.

3. Sage mode still gives crazy reflexes and greater physical ability whoch correlates with greater speed.

Greater physical ability has nothing to do with reflexes, and an EMS user already matched SM sensing and reflexes with his precognition.

4. BM Naruto deflected 5 tbb's with his shunshin if I recall correctly. Nothing KCM has shown even begins to compare to that speed.

He slapped those away with his tails. Not Shunshin.

 

[solorflare99]

Isn't Hashirama's "speed" his mokuton and not so much how fast his body moves. Look at him at VOTE, Madara and Kurama would attack and Hashirama would have a jutsu ready to counter. Madara was able to react to FTG with Hashirama's SM. Ameno is harder to predict than FTG, but Hashirama would be more experienced with SM than Madara. Also without Rikudo chakra boost I can only see Sasuke using Ameno at most 3 times in a match.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Damn, we got snitches in here.

 

[Brooks]

*Waiting for the same shit to happen again*​

 

[TRE MERCER]

Yes im just that Savage...

OT Sasuke wins ill explain in detail if need be.

 

[Waltz]

You mean Waltz, who dropped the main argument

Unsubstantiated? Ya know; At a point I gave thought to what is 'harder' your skull or the Jubi's hide but I'll be honest, you entertained me. Speaking of the main argument; in your previous post you stated something so logically detestable that it heavily swayed my interest from continuing this discussion. You stated this:

Canon statements will always trump uncertain assertions.

Or in other words that: If there is ever a case regarding the uncertainty in a Jutsu or anything for that matter then what Cannon say's goes because Canon statements will always trump uncertain assertions.

I'll draw a final example of the ridiculousness in your logic. An individual which we will call "A" makes an uncertain assertion pertaining to a particular Jutsu:

Uncertain Assertion made by "A": I do not believe Rikiri can cut a Lightening bolt or even Kirin simply because the Databook say's so.

Your logic and line of reason: The Databook (cannon) says Rikiri can cut a lightening and you don't have proof of it not doing so, so It can cut Kirin.

Reality: Due to it's shear magnitude and power Kirin would evaporate both Kakashi and his Rikiri.


Now, you see everything within this spoiler (Take a good look at it):

Spoiler

Wrong. Can you please stop acting like you are too daft to understand simple logic? Can you stop trying your hardest to deny canonical statements? Because you look a fool. You honestly look like a fool.

The question is "Is Amaterasu as hot as the sun?".

Manga feats show that it can't be as hot as the sun, so there is no uncertainty on that subject. What your example addresses is:

"How hot is Amaterasu?"

But I never asked that question nor do I care. Can you understand this? Or do I have to make it even simpler than that.

No, it actually isn't. The only thing debatable is "What are the leaf's jutsu?".

Once again. Terrible example.

Wrong. Because once again, that is a hyperbolic exaggeration of it's abilities. Shinra Tensei having a 5 second cooldown applies no sort of logical fallacy nor is it an exaggeration thus your example is once again, terrible. Terrible examples and a terrible attempt.

Why can't you just do us both a favor and stop denying Manga canon? Cause that is literally all you are doing at this point. Manga has stated that Deva has a 5 second cooldown. DB has reinforced that. You have given me no real reason to deny it's validity besides:

-Terrible interpretations of Manga canon.
-Shit examples that have nothing to do with Shinra Tensei.
-Other reasoning that'd lead me to question every piece of information from the DB without reason.

You do what you do because you don't want to admit you are wrong, and it's pathetic. Let's just cut the bull.

-You don't have a real reason as to why Sasuke wins, aside from all the speculative nonsense you were spouting earlier.

-Now you are trying to deny that ST has a 5 second cooldown based on OTHER pieces of info being incorrect, despite there being NO proof that THIS piece of info is false.

It is essentially this:

Red herring: When the arguer diverts the attention by changing the subject.

Not only is it a fallacy but the mere fact that you go on to defend the silly notion of Hiruzen knowing all the Jutsu within the leaf shows that your entire way of thinking is fallacious. There is no longer any need for me to waste post's responding to you. I initially got the notion after reading this:

Sasuke bringing out PS is NOT the reason they beat Obito. They beat Obito BECAUSE THEY COMBINED THEIR AVATARS INSTEAD OF FIGHTING SEPARATELY. Sasuke's strength did not change. He was fighting using the same exact strength as his cloaked Susanoo=his PS.

The bold is essentially:

Half truths (suppressed evidence): A statement usually intended to deceive that omits some of the facts necessary for an accurate description.

The underlined is essentially:

observational selection (similar to confirmation bias): pointing out favorable circumstances while ignoring the unfavorable.

Since we do not know the full capabilities of Rin'negan-Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o without the Rikudo powerup, the red is essentially:

conjecture
kənˈdʒɛktʃə/Submit
noun
1.
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
"conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
synonyms: guess, speculation, surmise, fancy, notion, belief, suspicion, presumption, assumption, theory, hypothesis, postulation, supposition; More

---

If Sasuke had used PS, and they had fought separately and won, then you'd have a point. But they didn't, so you have no point.

Is essentially:

Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true. This error in reasoning is often expressed with influential rhetoric.

Mmm..Then you call yourself logical. Oh well...

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