(DrProof) The Rinnegan's Genjutsu

[AlphaScythian]

How can you say that the other is not Genjutsu when they have the same symptoms?

Because genjutsu takes control of the mind and body as result while chakra receivers only body.

Its more similar to the chakra string puppeteers use, like sakura was controlled. Her mind was intact and she willingly allowed to be controlled, otherwise she would fight foreign chakra with her own and would render control less effective.

 

[DrProof]

Ok,ok here,here:

Spoiler

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Here Jman says his chakra flow is going crazy and we see the projection's of the eyes (we only see the eyes and not the whole body of the path,like when Itachi used genjutsu's that there was a projection of his eyes).

Spoiler

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Kakashi is obviously using genjutsu on Zabuza to make a projection of himself next to Kakashi so that he thinks that Kakashi entered his mind.Not exactly the same with rinnegan's tech.,but the projection thing look alike!

Thank you for that. Repped.

Because genjutsu takes control of the mind and body as result while chakra receivers only body.

Its more similar to the chakra string puppeteers use, like sakura was controlled. Her mind was intact and she willingly allowed to be controlled, otherwise she would fight foreign chakra with her own and would render control less effective.

Isn't that what the Chakra Rods are doing in this case? Taking control of his body? Some may argue his mind also.

 

[OnPoint]

I'm sure Nagato is well versed in Genjutsu, considering what he was able to learn in his youth and the Gen traps/shields he was able to set in the minds of others. I'm just wary of linking the purpose of the rods to that particular art - they seem specific to Nagato's use of the Outer Path.

 

[Troyg39]

I agree but I'm still skeptical a little. I don't think in every instance that chakra is disturbed can it be considered Genjutsu.

If that's the case, technically we could call the Hyuga's gentle fist a genjutsu too.

They can pinpoint their chakra and strike your chakra points to disrupt your chakra flow too. By the definition provided that could be considered yin release too.

Now I guess you coul say that since the gentle fist also causes harm to the body then it doesn't fit the definiton but there are two things wrong with that.

Remember when Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and Sasuke? It put them in a coma, which happens when there's an injury to either the cerebral cortex, recticular activating system (RAS) or both, which are located in the brain, a physical organ.

Also referring to your own example with Kakashi and pain, you can see that pain had to actually phyiscally insert his chakra rod into Kakashi first, which caused damage to Kakashi's shoulder. Without that rod, Pain can't influence your chakra in any way. He needs to physically insert a chakra rod in you in order to connect his chakra with your system

I could be missing something but I would say that the Rinnegan simpy has some chakra altering traits. I wouldn't say it can perform Genjutsu. Unless ofcorse you would say the Hyugas can too.

 

[DrProof]

I'm sure Nagato is well versed in Genjutsu, considering what he was able to learn in his youth and the Gen traps/shields he was able to set in the minds of others. I'm just wary of linking the purpose of the rods to that particular art - they seem specific to Nagato's use of the Outer Path.

I'm not going to sprout false claims here. I was wary as well to link the Chakra Receivers, and Genjutsu together. But then I learned that he had been decent in Genjutsu, so I took the risk in linking the two together. More than likely he can use the Chakra Receivers to manipulate not only a persons Body, but their mind as well.

 

[ajpn920]

Nice thread and I agree about the genjutsu based approach but it is not entirely the same as the genjutsu we have seen so far. By the given definition, genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim's brain and there are nothing to show a rinnegan manipulating the flow of chakra in a victim's brain. Perhaps it's true that it can create false images but it can't manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim's brain.

 

[DrProof]

I agree but I'm still skeptical a little. I don't think in every instance that chakra is disturbed can it be considered Genjutsu.

If that's the case, technically we could call the Hyuga's gentle fist a genjutsu too.

They can pinpoint their chakra and strike your chakra points to disrupt your chakra flow too. By the definition provided that could be considered yin release too.

Now I guess you coul say that since the gentle fist also causes harm to the body then it doesn't fit the definiton but there are two things wrong with that.

Remember when Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and Sasuke? It put them in a coma, which happens when there's an injury to either the cerebral cortex, recticular activating system (RAS) or both, which are located in the brain, a physical organ.

Also referring to your own example with Kakashi and pain, you can see that pain had to actually phyiscally insert his chakra rod into Kakashi first, which caused damage to Kakashi's shoulder. Without that rod, Pain can't influence your chakra in any way. He needs to physically insert a chakra rod in you in order to connect his chakra with your system

I could be missing something but I would say that the Rinnegan simpy has some chakra altering traits. I wouldn't say it can perform Genjutsu. Unless ofcorse you would say the Hyugas can too.

But in which way does the Gentle fist affect the enemies mind? The Rinnegan's Pseudo Genjutsu does so as the image it presented tampered with Kakashi's mind set no doubt.

The certain alarm:

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The uncertainty "what was that?":

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[ARandomBlackKid]

Proof is back bitches!

 

[Waltz]

More than likely. Also explain this:

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If the Rinnegan allows the user to learn all six types of nature, why wouldn't Genjutsu be a factor here? Couldn't the rods be used for other purposes?

Ocular genjutsu is portrayed to be projected from the users eyes. Even if the usage of chakra rods were to permit an illusive state; it wouldn't categorized as the sharingan's methods of genjutsu being that it requires physical contact, in a sense it would be an inferior type of genjutsu. Mastering the 6 nature types don't necessarily point to anything but the ability to use any elemental ninjutsu. And according to your quote that is the primary difference between the two, that the effects of genjutsu are illusory; instead of attacking the victim's body (physical contact), like taijutsu or ninjutsu.

Also, your Genjutsu quote only referrers to regular types of genjutsu like Bringer of darkness and Tree Binding Death (require hand seals), not the special type of genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, which is secluded to MS+ users of the uchiha clan.

 

[DrProof]

Nice thread and I agree about the genjutsu based approach but it is not entirely the same as the genjutsu we have seen so far. By the given definition, genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim's brain and there are nothing to show a rinnegan manipulating the flow of chakra in a victim's brain. Perhaps it's true that it can create false images but it can't manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim's brain.

So you're saying false images don't affect the users brain? Tsukuyomi disagrees:

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Everything within this technique is a false image.

 

[DrProof]

Ocular genjutsu is portrayed to be projected from the users eyes. Even if the usage of chakra rods were to permit an illusive state; it wouldn't categorized as the sharingan's methods of genjutsu being that it requires physical contact, in a sense it would be an inferior type of genjutsu. Mastering the 6 nature types don't necessarily point to anything but the ability to use any elemental ninjutsu. And according to your quote that is the primary difference between the two, that the effects of genjutsu are illusory; instead of attacking the victim's body (physical contact), like taijutsu or ninjutsu.

Also, your Genjutsu quote only referrers to regular types of genjutsu like Bringer of darkness and Tree Binding Death (require hand seals), not the special type of genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, which is secluded to MS+ users of the uchiha clan.

Possibly. Although the Uchiha based Genjutsu, yes I know this that's why I haven't related it with their arsenal (I don't believe I have)

Genjutsu requires Handseals and/or chakra. Who says the Rinnegan is limited to simple handseal based techniques when having to penetrate an opponent with a chakra rod could replace those needed requirements?

 

[OnPoint]

I'm not going to sprout false claims here. I was wary as well to link the Chakra Receivers, and Genjutsu together. But then I learned that he had been decent in Genjutsu, so I took the risk in linking the two together. More than likely he can use the Chakra Receivers to manipulate not only a persons Body, but their mind as well.

But using the 'image' or 'face' that was projected onto Kakashi won't allow you to reach a sound conclusion, because we've seen the same 'effect' when the Kyūbi's chakra startled Nagato and Fukasaku. All three instances are showing the presence of an alien chakra source, and although these sources are able to disorganize someone's flow of chakra (in the same way as Genjutsu), can we really say that these are examples of people being put into illusions? Can people escape it via normal Genjutsu-escaping means? I just don't think so. What Nagato does with the receivers is, in my opinion, unique to the Rinnegan and its Outer Path - it isn't the same as your everyday Genjutsu.

 

[DrProof]

But using the 'image' or 'face' that was projected onto Kakashi won't allow you to reach a sound conclusion, because we've seen the same 'effect' when the Kyūbi's chakra startled Nagato and Fukasaku. All three instances are showing the presence of an alien chakra source, and although these sources are able to disorganize someone's flow of chakra (in the same way as Genjutsu), can we really say that these are examples of people being put into illusions? Can people escape it via normal Genjutsu-escaping means? I just don't think so. What Nagato does with the receivers is, in my opinion, unique to the Rinnegan and its Outer Path - it isn't the same as your everyday Genjutsu.

Maybe it could be classified to that of a small paralysis? Such as Orochimaru's Killing Intent?

 

[Troyg39]

But in which way does the Gentle fist affect the enemies mind? The Rinnegan's Pseudo Genjutsu does so as the image it presented tampered with Kakashi's mind set no doubt.

The certain alarm:

You must be registered for see images

The uncertainty "what was that?":

You must be registered for see images

Just curious but what makes you so sur that his mind was effected? Simply because you see an image of Pain's eyes doesn't mean that Kakashi's mind was tampered with. This could've been simply due to the fact that Kakashi could feel the Rinnegan chakra interfering with his own flow of chakra. It doesn't mean that Kakashi was imagining anything that wasn't there or that his thought patterns were disrupted.

When he asked "what was that?" He was probably asking what that sudden surge in foreign chakra was that controlled his movements. We know that the chakra rods allow him to control the body. There really isn't anything concrete that suggest it affects the mind.

And besides, Genjutsu doesn't affect your mind as you put it. It simply affects the way chakra is flown to your brain, by either increasing/decreasing the flow to work. The Gentle Fist does more than stop chakra you know. It can also allow the user to increase/decrease the flow of chakra, just like a Genjutsu does to create the illusions.

I'm not saying you are definitely wrong, I just think your definition is too broad. By what you've given us, you can say that gentle fist is a genjutsu too could you not?

 

[ajpn920]

So you're saying false images don't affect the users brain? Tsukuyomi disagrees:

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Everything within this technique is a false image.

Clone techniques can create an illusion but it is not a genjutsu. I'm not referring to a shadow clone but a normal clone technique which can create illusion but not an actual copy (distributing chakra among every clone). A genjutsu is something that can MANIPULATEthe victim's mind and rinnegan can't do that. That scan did manipulate the victim's mind. Look what happened to Kakashi after that. He needed treatment.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Isn't that what the Chakra Rods are doing in this case? Taking control of his body? Some may argue his mind also.

No. Genjutsu is a yin release. U can use it to make illusionary clones and whole mirages outside of any one's mind. Being a yin its pure spiritual energy. So its only can target mind only or another spiritual energy. After defeating the mind u have access to chakra flow
Neither of this rinnegan proved to do.

Over powering one's chakra ( yin+yang mixture) flow with chakra is completely different. Its not yin release.
Well i hope u get it now.

 

[Waltz]

Possibly. Although the Uchiha based Genjutsu, yes I know this that's why I haven't related it with their arsenal (I don't believe I have)

Genjutsu requires Handseals and/or chakra. Who says the Rinnegan is limited to simple handseal based techniques when having to penetrate an opponent with a chakra rod could replace those needed requirements?

Well if so, i doubt it's in the way you are proposing. Those chakra receivers are used to re-animate dead bodies in a sense he is pumping his own chakra into them to completely control body and brain function plus other details but it really doesn't come off as an illusive technique.

 

[DrProof]

No. Genjutsu is a yin release. U can use it to make illusionary clones and whole mirages outside of any one's mind. Being a yin its pure spiritual energy. So its only can target mind only or another spiritual energy. After defeating the mind u have access to chakra flow
Neither of this rinnegan proved to do.

Over powering one's chakra ( yin+yang mixture) flow with chakra is completely different. Its not yin release.
Well i hope u get it now.

But as you've already said the Chakra rods overpower the users chakra giving access to the opponents chakra flow aren't they the same principles?

 

[AlphaScythian]

But as you've already said the Chakra rods overpower the users chakra giving access to the opponents chakra flow aren't they the same principles?

Ok i get what u want here. Yes in theory u can fully control one's body. But it has to be some fodder. U will need to pump huge amount of chakra into pathway in order to have effective control of the body. If u ever want to control one's mind, u will have to pump even more chakra so the quantity+power of ur spiritual energy would overpower that of a target.

And its different in procedure to that of genjutsu, so its not genjutsu. While at cost effective price u can accomplish the same.

 

[DrProof]

Ok i get what u want here. Yes in theory u can fully control one's body. But it has to be some fodder. U will need to pump huge amount of chakra into pathway in order to have effective control of the body. If u ever want to control one's mind, u will have to pump even more chakra so the quantity+power of ur spiritual energy would overpower that of a target.

And its different in procedure to that of genjutsu, so its not genjutsu. While at cost effective price u can accomplish the same.

Ah I see. Thanks.