[VS] Zoro vs Doflamingo

[KingHashirama]

Completely baseless

Don't see how its baseless, when the DF didn't give him a sword.. he uses the sword to make precise cuts by using his DF power through the sword. He should be able to do it with anything sharp, if he has mastered his DF.

So, are you saying the World's Strongest Swordsman is the one who fulfills the standards of being a swordsman the best, not necessarily the strongest swordsman overall?

Strongest Swordsman is the guy who is actually a swordsman and would win in a fight with only swords. You take away Haki from Zoro and you take away Haki and DF from Law... who ends up as the better swordsman? Zoro. Hence he is the better swordsman. Just like Shanks is most likely stronger than Mihawk, and carries a swordsman.. yet is not the strongest swordsman.

As far as strongest in the fight goes, can't really say yet, since Oda hasn't bothered showing his full capabilities after timeskip, so hard to say where Zoro currently stands.


His DF is responsible for those slashes, not his swordskills. He could be an average joe with the sword for all we know.

PS: The Dark King used a sword, but never got the title of the "Strongest swordsman".

 

[Hexuze]

@Bold, yet someone stupider aka luffy would beat Law..

Law taking away Zoro's sword is highly unlikely, and ridiculous to even entertain.. and if that is the case.. then the training by the Greatest Swordsmen is a failure.

Luffy is stronger in terms of power but he could potentially lose because of how Law's DF works. It could go either way.

It's not unlikely, unless you got evidence proving otherwise. Vergo was able to move fast enough and get Law's heart back when he used room, so if Vergo can do it then there's no doubt the WSS can as well. Zoro lacks speed feats to pull that off. I could see Oda addressing this in the future but for now it's possible.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Don't see how its baseless, when the DF didn't give him a sword.. he uses the sword to make precise cuts by using his DF power through the sword. He should be able to do it with anything sharp, if he has mastered his DF.

You said any object, so I assumed you meant he could pick up a stick and do the same thing.

Strongest Swordsman is the guy who is actually a swordsman and would win in a fight with only swords. You take away Haki from Zoro and you take away Haki and DF from Law... who ends up as the better swordsman? Zoro. Hence he is the better swordsman. Just like Shanks is most likely stronger than Mihawk, and carries a swordsman.. yet is not the strongest swordsman.

As far as strongest in the fight goes, can't really say yet, since Oda hasn't bothered showing his full capabilities after timeskip, so hard to say where Zoro currently stands.


His DF is responsible for those slashes, not his swordskills. He could be an average joe with the sword for all we know.

PS: The Dark King used a sword, but never got the title of the "Strongest swordsman".

Nope. It doesn't matter that Law's DF enhances his swordplay, it's still swordplay. A swordsman is anyone who uses a sword consistently and regularly in combat. Mihawk being the world's strongest swordsman means, of all the people in the One Piece world who are swordsmen, Mihawk is the strongest of them, including Shanks. It's the world's most skilled swordsman, it's the world's greatest/strongest, meaning Mihawk is above them all.

Law, whether you like it or not, is a swordsman. Zoro is more skilled in using a sword, but Law is the stronger swordsman. Doesn't matter that it's because of his DF.

 

[KingHashirama]

Luffy is stronger in terms of power but he could potentially lose because of how Law's DF works. It could go either way.

It's not unlikely, unless you got evidence proving otherwise. Vergo was able to move fast enough and get Law's heart back when he used room, so if Vergo can do it then there's no doubt the WSS can as well. Zoro lacks speed feats to pull that off. I could see Oda addressing this in the future but for now it's possible.

Considering the consistency of Luffy being at top of the Supernova chain, i highly doubt it.

Zoro lacks over all fighting feats.. lol. We have seen Law at his max to the point where he couldn't stand.. we have seen luffy at that same point.. We have not seen Zoro. So we can only go based on assumptions, if we are to discuss Zoro's power.

 

[KingHashirama]

You said any object, so I assumed you meant he could pick up a stick and do the same thing.



Nope. It doesn't matter that Law's DF enhances his swordplay, it's still swordplay. A swordsman is anyone who uses a sword consistently and regularly in combat. Mihawk being the world's strongest swordsman means, of all the people in the One Piece world who are swordsmen, Mihawk is the strongest of them, including Shanks. It's the world's most skilled swordsman, it's the world's greatest/strongest, meaning Mihawk is above them all.

Law, whether you like it or not, is a swordsman. Zoro is more skilled in using a sword, but Law is the stronger swordsman. Doesn't matter that it's because of his DF.

@Bold, which would be Zoro.


Law will be powerful with or without his swordd, he will still have the ability to cut with or without his sword. As he only uses the Sword as a tool to perform precise cuts for his DF ability, which is his main ability.

Zoro will be weak without his swords, as his fighting style is based on swordsmanship.


You can't be a stronger Swordsman , when you aren't strong with the sword. Shanks has a superior Haki compared to Mihawk, Mihawk has the better swordsman skills. Shanks doesn't need to be better with the sword than Mihawk, to be the stronger man. And being the stronger man doesn't automatically make you the stronger swordsman..

Law hasn't even shown anything to be in the same level of swordsmanship as Zoro. His DF ability =/= his swordsmanship. Just look at the logic you are using.. Law can be a noob in actual sword fighting, but is stronger swordsman because his DF cuts shit up.

 

[Punk Hazard]

@Bold, which would be Zoro.


Law will be powerful with or without his swordd, he will still have the ability to cut with or without his sword. As he only uses the Sword as a tool to perform precise cuts for his DF ability, which is his main ability.

Zoro will be weak without his swords, as his fighting style is based on swordsmanship.


You can't be a stronger Swordsman , when you aren't strong with the sword. Shanks has a superior Haki compared to Mihawk, Mihawk has the better swordsman skills. Shanks doesn't need to be better with the sword than Mihawk, to be the stronger man. And being the stronger man doesn't automatically make you the stronger swordsman..

Law hasn't even shown anything to be in the same level of swordsmanship as Zoro. His DF ability =/= his swordsmanship. Just look at the logic you are using.. Law can be a noob in actual sword fighting, but is stronger swordsman because his DF cuts shit up.

I meant to say it's not the world's most skilled swordsman.

Law is not as skilled as Zoro, but he is stronger than Zoro, and is therefore the stronger swordsman.

Kaku would be powerful with or without his swords due to being a martial artist as well. He's still a swordsman though. So that point is moot.

If world's strongest swordsman means you're better at being a swordsman, does world's strongest man mean you're better at being a man?

 

[WoldOfFingo]

The truth is, Zoro's slashes will never surpass Law's unless he somehow eats the Ope Ope no Mi. Zoro will surpass Law one day by being faster, physically stronger, way more durable(for his non-durability ignoring attacks), etc., but never because his slashes are better. And that's kinda the point I was making at first. Loki said Zoro's fighting style is the worst for Doflamingo in Zoro's favor, and I'm saying that isn't true because there's nothing Zoro's slashes can do that Law's couldn't, and Doffy got around that just fine.

Later in the series though, Zoro's stats will surpass Law's so that while his slashes themselves might be inferior, he'll be overall better and stronger than Law.

But with a good enough haki one can overcome law's slashes
If in the future Law fails to cut his opponents because their haki is to powerfull but Zoro can because his haki is superior that would make Zoro's slashes > Law's slashes then

 

[Punk Hazard]

But with a good enough haki one can overcome law's slashes
If in the future Law fails to cut his opponents because their haki is to powerfull but Zoro can because his haki is superior that would make Zoro's slashes > Law's slashes then

No it wouldn't because Haki is a specific weakness to Law's slashes but not Zoro's. That's like saying Nightwing is stronger than Superman because being exposed to Kryptonite killed Superman but didn't kill Nightwing. You can't compare Law's slashes to the only thing it is natural weak against that is neutral to Zoro's and say Zoro's are better, you have to compare them to objects that are neutral to both of them. Otherwise, the comparison is bias. Zoro's slashes get good enough to cut Haki while some Haki can nullify Law's slashes, but what if they never get good enough to cut Seastone, diamond, or the wall that stopped Whitebeard's Quake, but Law's can cut those because they ignore durability. Would Zoro's truly be superior then?

 

[Zorø]

Lol are you guys foreal Doffy wrecks Zoro I am a Zoro fanboy and I wouldn't even go as far to say Zoro can beat doffy maybe if Doffy is near death yes but for now doffy solos.

 

[lelerskates]

I'll wait for you to explain how Zoro's physical traveling slashes will surpass slashes that ignore durability completely and are space-time.

You forget about haki? Law's attacks can be blocked by someone who has superior Haki to nullify his DF power, whereas Zoro's slashes can only be overpowered by attacks stronger than his own. Or pin them both against BB individually. Who puts up the better fight? Zoro because he has no DF power to nullify. His attacks are pure power while Law relies on his room abilities. The absolute only thing Law has over Zoro is speed.

Anyway, this thread isnt fair in the first place. We've seen Doflamingo go all out post-time skip but we havent seen Zoro at 100%. You can all say "zoro is weaker than luffy so he loses to doflamingo" and make up any other bulllshit you want but it's all speculation until any of you can prove to me why Zoro would lose when we havent seen him full power yet. YOU have to prove why Doflamingo would win (which logically speaking, you cant). I dont have to prove why Zoro would win because I didn't answer the question because i dont know how strong Zoro is right now.

 

[Punk Hazard]

You forget about haki? Law's attacks can be blocked by someone who has superior Haki to nullify his DF power, whereas Zoro's slashes can only be overpowered by attacks stronger than his own. Or pin them both against BB individually. Who puts up the better fight? Zoro because he has no DF power to nullify. His attacks are pure power while Law relies on his room abilities. The absolute only thing Law has over Zoro is speed.

Anyway, this thread isnt fair in the first place. We've seen Doflamingo go all out post-time skip but we havent seen Zoro at 100%. You can all say "zoro is weaker than luffy so he loses to doflamingo" and make up any other bulllshit you want but it's all speculation until any of you can prove to me why Zoro would lose when we havent seen him full power yet. YOU have to prove why Doflamingo would win (which logically speaking, you cant). I dont have to prove why Zoro would win because I didn't answer the question because i dont know how strong Zoro is right now.

See my reply to WorldofFingo to address this

 

[KingHashirama]

I meant to say it's not the world's most skilled swordsman.

Law is not as skilled as Zoro, but he is stronger than Zoro, and is therefore the stronger swordsman.

Kaku would be powerful with or without his swords due to being a martial artist as well. He's still a swordsman though. So that point is moot.

If world's strongest swordsman means you're better at being a swordsman, does world's strongest man mean you're better at being a man?

No, hes a stronger fighter than Zoro... but not a swordsman. To be a stronger swordsman he needs the ability to beat Zoro with simply the sword.. which he cannot.

Even Mihawk, the world's strongest swordsman can't perform, Law's slashes. Is Law now better than him?

Yes you can be the strongest swordsman, while being a noob in swordsmanship right, simply because you have a DF that helps you win battles, and not your sword skills. right right?

 

[Punk Hazard]

No, hes a stronger fighter than Zoro... but not a swordsman. To be a stronger swordsman he needs the ability to beat Zoro with simply the sword.. which he cannot.

Even Mihawk, the world's strongest swordsman can't perform, Law's slashes. Is Law now better than him?

Yes you can be the strongest swordsman, while being a noob in swordsmanship right, simply because you have a DF that helps you win battles, and not your sword skills. right right?

They are swordsmen. Law is the stronger one, so he is the stronger swordsman. Being a swordsman isn't defined by skill, it's defined by using a sword regardless of skill level. If being a swordsman is independent of your skill, then being the stronger swordsman doesn't necessarily mean being more skilled in using a sword.

Yes, actually. If your DF enhances your swordplay to uber levels even though your skill is subpar, you can still be strongest swordsman.

 

[KingHashirama]

They are swordsmen. Law is the stronger one, so he is the stronger swordsman. Being a swordsman isn't defined by skill, it's defined by using a sword regardless of skill level. If being a swordsman is independent of your skill, then being the stronger swordsman doesn't necessarily mean being more skilled in using a sword.

Yes, actually. If your DF enhances your swordplay to uber levels even though your skill is subpar, you can still be strongest swordsman.

@bold, yet thats where the whole "Strongest swordsman" is leading to. As Zoro gets stronger, hes becoming more skilled.. his entire training with Mihawk was to become more skilled, and once he is skilled enough he will be able to take on Mihawk, who is the most skilled swordsman. As he becomes more skilled, he gets stronger. As Luffy becomes more skilled in his DF he gets stronger.. Law doesn't get stronger by being more skilled with sword he carries.. Law becomes stronger with being more skilled in his DF.


So are Law's slashes better than Mihawk's.. considering Mihawk can't replicate Law's feats.. similar to Zoro not being able to do so.

 

[Punk Hazard]

@bold, yet thats where the whole "Strongest swordsman" is leading to. As Zoro gets stronger, hes becoming more skilled.. his entire training with Mihawk was to become more skilled, and once he is skilled enough he will be able to take on Mihawk, who is the most skilled swordsman. As he becomes more skilled, he gets stronger. As Luffy becomes more skilled in his DF he gets stronger.. Law doesn't get stronger by being more skilled with sword he carries.. Law becomes stronger with being more skilled in his DF.


So are Law's slashes better than Mihawk's.. considering Mihawk can't replicate Law's feats.. similar to Zoro not being able to do so.

Not necessarily. There is a big difference between skill and strength. One can get stronger by becoming more skilled, but a less skilled person can be stronger than another. Luffy and Kaku for example. Kaku is far more skilled than Luffy. While Luffy uses pretty much just random punches and kicks, Kaku has mastered not one, but two formal fighting styles/martial arts. Hell, Sanji is more skilled than Luffy as he has mastered a formal martial art, while Luffy just does whatever works, and he is far stronger than both of them.

A good out of series example is Batman and Bane. Batman is exceptionally more skilled, but Bane is exceptionally stronger.

It doesn't matter if Law gets stronger by increasing the strength or skill in using his DF, he is still a swordsman. Zoro is better at swordplay than Law, but Law is the stronger swordsman because "swordsman" is a category, not a skill level, and both men fall into that category and Law is stronger than Zoro.

 

[KingHashirama]

Not necessarily. There is a big difference between skill and strength. One can get stronger by becoming more skilled, but a less skilled person can be stronger than another. Luffy and Kaku for example. Kaku is far more skilled than Luffy. While Luffy uses pretty much just random punches and kicks, Kaku has mastered not one, but two formal fighting styles/martial arts. Hell, Sanji is more skilled than Luffy as he has mastered a formal martial art, while Luffy just does whatever works, and he is far stronger than both of them.

A good out of series example is Batman and Bane. Batman is exceptionally more skilled, but Bane is exceptionally stronger.

It doesn't matter if Law gets stronger by increasing the strength or skill in using his DF, he is still a swordsman. Zoro is better at swordplay than Law, but Law is the stronger swordsman because "swordsman" is a category, not a skill level, and both men fall into that category and Law is stronger than Zoro.

But Kaku is skilled in using martial arts. While Luffy is skilled in using his DF. Where Kaku is not skilled in Luffy's DF, since he doesn't have it. So luffy is skilled. Luffy has been fighting since he was a little kid. Their skills simply are not in the same categories. Similar to how Law is skilled with his DF.. Zoro is skilled with the swords. Sanji is also nowhere near close to luffy in skills, where Luffy again has mastery over his DF, and he also has good mastery over Haki.. where as Sanji's mastery of Haki is not on luffy's level. So in which way is Sanji more skilled? A Karate trainer will be more skilled in Karate than a boxer .. doesn't mean the Karate guy is more skilled than the boxer in a fight, or vice-versa.


Yes, but Batman has proven to be the stronger man many times against bane. Bane simply has superior strength, but ain't the strongest fighter/man.


But it does matter, if Luffy starts carrying a sword and just swings it randomly with his DF ability as the pirate king, Mihawk would still be the strongest Swordsman. "Swordsman" is a category of people who use swords, and to be the strongest "swordsman" you have to be the strongest with the sword. Which law is not, and Zoro is. Law might be stronger than Zoro because of his DF.. but not with the sword.. hence not the stronger swordsman.

 

[Punk Hazard]

But Kaku is skilled in using martial arts. While Luffy is skilled in using his DF. Where Kaku is not skilled in Luffy's DF, since he doesn't have it. So luffy is skilled. Luffy has been fighting since he was a little kid. Their skills simply are not in the same categories. Similar to how Law is skilled with his DF.. Zoro is skilled with the swords. Sanji is also nowhere near close to luffy in skills, where Luffy again has mastery over his DF, and he also has good mastery over Haki.. where as Sanji's mastery of Haki is not on luffy's level. So in which way is Sanji more skilled? A Karate trainer will be more skilled in Karate than a boxer .. doesn't mean the Karate guy is more skilled than the boxer in a fight, or vice-versa.


Yes, but Batman has proven to be the stronger man many times against bane. Bane simply has superior strength, but ain't the strongest fighter/man.


But it does matter, if Luffy starts carrying a sword and just swings it randomly with his DF ability as the pirate king, Mihawk would still be the strongest Swordsman. "Swordsman" is a category of people who use swords, and to be the strongest "swordsman" you have to be the strongest with the sword. Which law is not, and Zoro is. Law might be stronger than Zoro because of his DF.. but not with the sword.. hence not the stronger swordsman.

The comparison is combat technique. While Luffy is skilled in using his DF to augment his combat technique's strength, the actual technique itself is still much cruder than Kaku's in execution and basis. Therefore, Kaku is more skilled.

Batman beat Bane because, once again, there is a difference between strength and skill. Bane is stronger than Batman, there is nothing to dispute that. But Batman wins because his skill surpasses Bane's strength. Batman is still weaker, he just wins more times than he loses because his skill level is just that good.

Not if Luffy becomes stronger than Mihawk. If Luffy just starts swinging a sword around randomly in each battle, despite how crude it is, he would still be a swordsman. If he beat Mihawk, he'd become the strongest swordsman. Once again, the label of swordsman is just that, a label. It's not a skill level. You can have 0 skill, you're still a swordsman if you use it consistently and regularly, which Law does. Law is a swordsman, he's stronger than Zoro, he's the stronger swordsman. To be the strongest swordsman, you have to be the swordsman who's stronger than any other swordsman, not the most skilled at using a sword.

 

[KingHashirama]

The comparison is combat technique. While Luffy is skilled in using his DF to augment his combat technique's strength, the actual technique itself is still much cruder than Kaku's in execution and basis. Therefore, Kaku is more skilled.

Batman beat Bane because, once again, there is a difference between strength and skill. Bane is stronger than Batman, there is nothing to dispute that. But Batman wins because his skill surpasses Bane's strength. Batman is still weaker, he just wins more times than he loses because his skill level is just that good.

Not if Luffy becomes stronger than Mihawk. If Luffy just starts swinging a sword around randomly in each battle, despite how crude it is, he would still be a swordsman. If he beat Mihawk, he'd become the strongest swordsman. Once again, the label of swordsman is just that, a label. It's not a skill level. You can have 0 skill, you're still a swordsman if you use it consistently and regularly, which Law does. Law is a swordsman, he's stronger than Zoro, he's the stronger swordsman. To be the strongest swordsman, you have to be the swordsman who's stronger than any other swordsman, not the most skilled at using a sword.

False, Luffy's technique is the DF itself. Kaku's technique is more related to pure "martial arts". Where as luffy is a brawler type, that uses his skills of his DF, that he has been training since a kid. The whole "stronger than a bullet punch".. thats a skill learned by Luffy. Kaku and Luffy use 2 different fighting styles.


Noooo, Bane has more physical "strength", which is 1 part of being "stronger". But Batman is the stronger fighter. Though the word "strong" is usually referred to physical strength alot of the times.. however, it is not the definition people use when saying so and so is the strongest fighter in the world and so on. The guy who can whip the other is the stronger fighter. Bane is physically stronger than Batman.. but he is not the stronger fighter.



@bold, no you will be just a guy who thinks hes a swordsman. You can't be a boxer, by just throwing punches. You can't be a martial artist, by just throwing kicks and punches. If this was the case, majority of the human race would be martial artists.



You aren't the stronger swordsman, when you aren't besting that person with your swords, but instead another power.

 

[Punk Hazard]

False, Luffy's technique is the DF itself. Kaku's technique is more related to pure "martial arts". Where as luffy is a brawler type, that uses his skills of his DF, that he has been training since a kid. The whole "stronger than a bullet punch".. thats a skill learned by Luffy. Kaku and Luffy use 2 different fighting styles.


Noooo, Bane has more physical "strength", which is 1 part of being "stronger". But Batman is the stronger fighter. Though the word "strong" is usually referred to physical strength alot of the times.. however, it is not the definition people use when saying so and so is the strongest fighter in the world and so on. The guy who can whip the other is the stronger fighter. Bane is physically stronger than Batman.. but he is not the stronger fighter.



@bold, no you will be just a guy who thinks hes a swordsman. You can be a boxer, by just throwing punches. You can't be a martial artist, by just throwing kicks and punches. If this was the case, majority of the human race would be martial artists.

No. His technique is what he uses it for. A technique is your means of doing something. Luffy is skilled in using his DF for a crude combat technique. Kaku is more skilled no matter how you slice it. Even if the DF was Luffy's technique, Kaku is still more skilled as he has mastered Rokushiki and Niitoryu.

No, Bane is just stronger. Batman is the more skilled fighter. This is a case where skill trumps strength.

Nope.

swords·man
ˈsôrdzmən/Submit
noun
a man who fights with a sword (typically with his level of skill specified).
"an expert swordsman"

Skill is completely independ from being considered a swordsman, hence why it is typically needed to be specified. A novice at swordplay is still a swordsman. If you can be an expert swordsman, you can be a novice and completely untalented one.

 

[KingHashirama]

No. His technique is what he uses it for. A technique is your means of doing something. Luffy is skilled in using his DF for a crude combat technique. Kaku is more skilled no matter how you slice it. Even if the DF was Luffy's technique, Kaku is still more skilled as he has mastered Rokushiki and Niitoryu.

Boxer =/= Karate

Luffy =/= Kaku

When they use the same fighting style , feel free to compare them.


@Bold, both skills being inferior to Luffy's combat technique.

No, Bane is just stronger. Batman is the more skilled fighter. This is a case where skill trumps strength.

How is Bane a stronger fighter than Batman, when Batman whips his ass.. Unless Raikage is now stronger than Hashirama, due to him having more physical strength.

Nope.

swords·man
ˈsôrdzmən/Submit
noun
a man who fights with a sword (typically with his level of skill specified).
"an expert swordsman"

swordsman
noun swords·man \ˈsȯrdz-mən

Full definition:

1. one skilled in swordplay


Definition of SWORDSMAN for Kids

: a person who fights with a sword

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Skill is completely independ from being considered a swordsman, hence why it is typically needed to be specified. A novice at swordplay is still a swordsman.

Its not actually, you are simply making it out to be.. because you want Law to be above Zoro as a swordsman, for some odd reason. Hell even Tashigi is probably a stronger swordsman than Law. When Law displays feats of Zoro (purely based on his sword).. by simply using just his sword and no DF ability.. you might have an argument on him being a stronger swordsman than Zoro. Is he a stronger fighter? probably, is he a stronger swordsman? No feats to indicate hes even close to Zoro.


Your entire argument on Law being a better swordsman than Zoro is dependent on Law possibly being stronger than Zoro..and Zoro not being able to do Law's slashes. While the strongest Swordsman in the world, can't do Law's slashes either. =]

Sorry, I simply can't say character A is a better puncher than character B , simply because Character A beat Character B.. and he beat B by using kicks, while B consitantly showed to be the better puncher during the fight.