[Discussion] Zoro is NOT leagues above Sanji!

[Rainbow Dash]

When people say Zoro is way stronger than Sanji probably means that they think swords > legs. That's usually their only argument nowadays.

 

[LitzSabr]

Zoro was able to sense/see/feel, call it whatever you like, his stolen katana. The only thing that makes sense to explain this is haki.

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I don't disagree with your points but haki was explained rather late in the series,even though there were many haki users. Otohime was able to sense other people's emotions and "hear" their hearts. Shirahoshi is able to call sea kings. Roger could hear the voice of all things. My point is, haki is not widely explained. There may be other ways it can be used, that are not fully explained yet.

Yes it's true Haki isn't fully explained but let's see with what we have for now.
Otohime: That's CoO yes. Not much about it. Also it doesn't disagree with the current data.
Shirahoshi: That's a different case. It's because she is Poseidon. She is able to talk to sea kings and listen to them. Roger was also able to listen to sea kings, that's something similar to Poseidon. I'm not saying that this ability is Poseidon, but that since Poseidon is not related to Haki, so there's a chance that this ability to "hear the voice of all things" is also not related to Haki.

And now for Zoro. Zoro did felt that one of his sword is missing, but that is not how Haki works. Good example is when Enel couldn't sense the presence of Luffy inside the Snake Nola. Now why is that? Because he didn't know that Luffy was present there. What I'm trying to say is that, unless Zoro knows that his sword has been stolen, he can't, more specifically won't feel it(well in reality he is able to feel his katana but it's not Haki, Haki can't do it). So Zoro feeling is Katana is in my opinion more like a sudden realization that one of his Katana is missing from his waist,,or it's most likely related to Power of Destruction (破壊力 Hakairyoku?)[Feeling the breath of things], because when we saw Zoro fight Daz Bones, Zoro knew exactly where his sword was and Zoro explained it as feeling it's breath, of rocks etc. So yeah, that's different than Haki as of now.

 

[Kuzan]

Yes it's true Haki isn't fully explained but let's see with what we have for now.
Otohime: That's CoO yes. Not much about it. Also it doesn't disagree with the current data.
Shirahoshi: That's a different case. It's because she is Poseidon. She is able to talk to sea kings and listen to them. Roger was also able to listen to sea kings, that's something similar to Poseidon. I'm not saying that this ability is Poseidon, but that since Poseidon is not related to Haki, so there's a chance that this ability to "hear the voice of all things" is also not related to Haki.

And now for Zoro. Zoro did felt that one of his sword is missing, but that is not how Haki works. Good example is when Enel couldn't sense the presence of Luffy inside the Snake Nola. Now why is that? Because he didn't know that Luffy was present there. What I'm trying to say is that, unless Zoro knows that his sword has been stolen, he can't, more specifically won't feel it(well in reality he is able to feel his katana but it's not Haki, Haki can't do it). So Zoro feeling is Katana is in my opinion more like a sudden realization that one of his Katana is missing from his waist,,or it's most likely related to Power of Destruction (破壊力 Hakairyoku?)[Feeling the breath of things], because when we saw Zoro fight Daz Bones, Zoro knew exactly where his sword was and Zoro explained it as feeling it's breath, of rocks etc. So yeah, that's different than Haki as of now.

How did Rayleigh know how many animals there were when you cant sense something that you dont know is there.

 

[LitzSabr]

How did Rayleigh know how many animals there were when you cant sense something that you dont know is there.

Rayleigh knew there were animals where he was present. What kind of question is this

 

[Trolling King]

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Do you remember this?

Fck you guys
GOD DAMMIT

NOW I GOTTA READ THE WHOLE THING AGAIN BECAUSE HOW EPIC IT WAS. f!@#ing hate you both.

 

[narutorikudoumode]

Fck you guys
GOD DAMMIT

NOW I GOTTA READ THE WHOLE THING AGAIN BECAUSE HOW EPIC IT WAS. f!@#ing hate you both.

Dude you should be thanking me=D

 

[Frikid]

Don't make me destroy you Frikid!

When you said you are going to destroy me i thought you would at least put an argument which i would have to counter.
Your only argument was sanji can dodge zoro's attacks which in itself is wrong because sanji's speed is only a little bit faster than zoro and you have admitted yourself that sanji CANNOT tank zoro's attacks.

You also said that sanji have better stamina and speed than zoro.
This is wrong, Zoro has shown better stamina feats or more particularly i should say he have shown better endurance than sanji.
The best example i can think of is when zoro took all the pain of luffy at thriller bark.

Yeah , and? They're in the same league. Sanji would definitely cause even a G2 Luffy to struggle. Althought inevitably Luffy would win.

Luffy and Sanji are NOT in the same league.
You want to tell me luffy will be easily get blitzed by DD or have a hard time against Vergo ?
OR that sanji can defeat Donchinjao as easily as luffy ? OR if he can solo 500,000 people in one go ?
NOPE, He CAN'T.
There is a reason why luffy is the captain of this ship.

And? I guess since we've only seen Mihawk use bladed weapons (dagger and Yoru) then he must lose to Luffy right? Since to you it's the amount of body parts and appendages used which counts.

Are you dumb or what?
The point was Sanji uses only his legs while luffy uses all his body parts. If sanji was to use all his body parts like luffy or zoro, it would make him more stronger. Limiting yourself to only your legs leaves you at big disadvantage and despite of that, sanji has come a far way which is a good thing.

Do you even read the whole paragraph before quoting me? You don't even know how to quote :|. Like seriously, if you are going to quote line by line and debating on something so irrelevant to the topic, i am done with this debate. I am not even enjoying debating with you.

Your logic is: if you don't use a sword you will get cut in half vs Zoro. That's why they're in the same boat for arguments sakes. If you aren't happy because you can't counter or explain why my imitation of your logic is incorrect : then please go ahead and reiterate.

Nope.
If you don't have good enough defenses you would get cut half by zoro.
Both luffy and akainu have way better haki than sanji and with haki alone they can tank zoro's attacks. You are the one who is unable to counter my arguments, rather than showing how sanji can block zoro's attacks you make him run , run and run.
Even then you dont provide solid proof of how sanji is able to dodge zoro's attacks. As i said, sanji's speed is just slightly faster than zoro , its not like sanji is goku against zoro and can easily dodge any of zoro's attack and speed blitz him. Sanji is NOT dodging every attack zoro throws at him because the difference in their speed is not vast as you making it out to be and since you have admitted that sanji CANNOT tank zoro, sanji lose.

Running =/= winning.

Luffy's isn't leagues ahead. Their CoO seems to be equal but Luffy has the edge with Busoshoku Haki. You treat Sanji like he's a part of the W3

WRONG. Already answered before.

Dodging is all you need. If you are a speed based fighter a la Sanji : then dodging is the best way to form a counter attack. If you're like Zoro and Luffy then blocking is the best way to counter attack. Sanji can still block pretty much all of Zoro's one and two sword style attacks with his legs (+ Haki).

NOPE. if sanji comes in category of "speed based" , both zoro and luffy comes in that category too as both of them are about as fast as sanji. Luffy is probably faster than sanji .

Base Sanji... He's seen to be slightly faster with Diable Jambe and based off of that there's a high likelihood that an all out Hells memories Sanji is faster still. Speed wise:
HM Sanji>G2 Luffy>DJ Sanji>Zoro/Sanji>Base Luffy/G3 Luffy
(Asura is an attack so it doesn't count)

Diable jambe is also an attack but you counted it. :| Asura doesn't count because you cannot counter it.

Doesn't need to. Give a good reason on how Zoro can tank an attack where anything that touches Sanji gets set alight by a white hot (over 2,000 degrees c) flame at a focused point (Diable Jambe : it could melt Zoro's Katana) or Hells Memories where anything that comes close to Sanji is set on fire (Hells Memories)

I already knew of this. It's not running away , it is being tactical. Sanji won't stay up there for long.

Swords aren't getting melted by fire and certainly not zoro's legendary swords.
In op that logic doesn't apply, in fact, swords are used in OP to cut fire itself. If swords were so easily melted by fire, cutting fire for any sword user would be impossible.

That's true for any mortal if they do not use Haki e.g. Sanji without Haki would obviously get cut (if he doesn't dodge or block with his feet)



Haki doesn't cancel the other out. Both participants will simply be harder to harm.

You mean it's like they both aren't using Haki. Which is wrong.


If you're going with numbers:
attack power:
Luffy: 2600
G2: 3000
G3: 3200
Zoro: 2500
Asura (ONE ATTACK): 2990
Sanji: 2450
DJ: 2800
HM: 2900
There is hardly anything in it. With a similar scale in terms of defense.

The difference between the two is not that vast. Seeing as they can both fight and defeat the same opponents ; i'm pretty sure that Sanji is not the equivalent of 5/6ths of Zoro. He's more like 95-97% of Zoro in terms of strength. I agree Zoro is stronger but i'm explaining to you why they are not so far apart.

Neither i was going in numbers, neither i need your fanboy scaling of powers. All of this is your assumption and not directly stated by Oda.
And since you failed to understand my point, i would try it again.

Zoro(no haki) attacks sanji(no haki) with swords : Sanji gets cut.
Zoro (no haki) attacks sanji (with haki) with swords : Sanji blocks the attack due to haki.
Zoro (with haki) attacks sanji(with haki) with swords : Sanji gets cut because both of there haki are at same level.(same as first case)

If sanji wants to survive zoro's attacks he needs to have better armament haki than zoro. A lot better actually.

No fighting style has an advantage over another unless we compare the elements of a Logia vs another Logia element.

On what basis did you come to such a conclusion ? Bascially whats your proof to justify this statement?
Obviously i disagree with the statement.
A gun user obviously have an advantage against a martial artist given that they both are on same level.

Diable Jambe is hot enough to melt said swords. And Since to block an attack Zoro will use the back of his swords he cannot cut Sanji while blocking.

Discussed above.

Don't kid yourself on Zoro having better reflexes. Sanji is fast in all physical movements with equal reflexes to Zoro. In fact his Kenbushoku Haki probably maks his reflexes superior and more efficient to Zoro's. Zoro has the power , Sanji has the speed and agility.

Proof that sanji has better reflexes than zoro?
Zoro has been shown tokeep up easily against sanji, that alone is enough to prove his reflexes and speed.

Luffy is fast enough to ensure Zoro cannot counter attack without being hit again.

And? Are you implying that Luffy is now weaker than Zoro? Don't make me laugh! Luffy can stop stretching. And then retract a limb or pull his body closer to his fist/foot/head. Meaning Zoro would most likely strike nothing but the air.

Irrelevant to the main topic.
I never said luffy is weaker than zoro, that is something , you yourself stated.
I merely stated the advantage zoro have ,against luffy, as a sword user.

 

[SSS12]

When you said you are going to destroy me i thought you would at least put an argument which i would have to counter.
Your only argument was sanji can dodge zoro's attacks which in itself is wrong because sanji's speed is only a little bit faster than zoro and you have admitted yourself that sanji CANNOT tank zoro's attacks.

You also said that sanji have better stamina and speed than zoro.
This is wrong, Zoro has shown better stamina feats or more particularly i should say he have shown better endurance than sanji.
The best example i can think of is when zoro took all the pain of luffy at thriller bark.


Luffy and Sanji are NOT in the same league.
You want to tell me luffy will be easily get blitzed by DD or have a hard time against Vergo ?
OR that sanji can defeat Donchinjao as easily as luffy ? OR if he can solo 500,000 people in one go ?
NOPE, He CAN'T.
There is a reason why luffy is the captain of this ship.

Are you dumb or what?
The point was Sanji uses only his legs while luffy uses all his body parts. If sanji was to use all his body parts like luffy or zoro, it would make him more stronger. Limiting yourself to only your legs leaves you at big disadvantage and despite of that, sanji has come a far way which is a good thing.

Do you even read the whole paragraph before quoting me? You don't even know how to quote :|. Like seriously, if you are going to quote line by line and debating on something so irrelevant to the topic, i am done with this debate. I am not even enjoying debating with you.



Nope.
If you don't have good enough defenses you would get cut half by zoro.
Both luffy and akainu have way better haki than sanji and with haki alone they can tank zoro's attacks. You are the one who is unable to counter my arguments, rather than showing how sanji can block zoro's attacks you make him run , run and run.
Even then you dont provide solid proof of how sanji is able to dodge zoro's attacks. As i said, sanji's speed is just slightly faster than zoro , its not like sanji is goku against zoro and can easily dodge any of zoro's attack and speed blitz him. Sanji is NOT dodging every attack zoro throws at him because the difference in their speed is not vast as you making it out to be and since you have admitted that sanji CANNOT tank zoro, sanji lose.

Running =/= winning.



WRONG. Already answered before.

NOPE. if sanji comes in category of "speed based" , both zoro and luffy comes in that category too as both of them are about as fast as sanji. Luffy is probably faster than sanji .


Diable jambe is also an attack but you counted it. :| Asura doesn't count because you cannot counter it.


Swords aren't getting melted by fire and certainly not zoro's legendary swords.
In op that logic doesn't apply, in fact, swords are used in OP to cut fire itself. If swords were so easily melted by fire, cutting fire for any sword user would be impossible.


Neither i was going in numbers, neither i need your fanboy scaling of powers. All of this is your assumption and not directly stated by Oda.
And since you failed to understand my point, i would try it again.

Zoro(no haki) attacks sanji(no haki) with swords : Sanji gets cut.
Zoro (no haki) attacks sanji (with haki) with swords : Sanji blocks the attack due to haki.
Zoro (with haki) attacks sanji(with haki) with swords : Sanji gets cut because both of there haki are at same level.(same as first case)

If sanji wants to survive zoro's attacks he needs to have better armament haki than zoro. A lot better actually.


On what basis did you come to such a conclusion ? Bascially whats your proof to justify this statement?
Obviously i disagree with the statement.
A gun user obviously have an advantage against a martial artist given that they both are on same level.


Discussed above.


Proof that sanji has better reflexes than zoro?
Zoro has been shown tokeep up easily against sanji, that alone is enough to prove his reflexes and speed.



Irrelevant to the main topic.
I never said luffy is weaker than zoro, that is something , you yourself stated.
I merely stated the advantage zoro have ,against luffy, as a sword user.

I agree with most of what this guy says. I believe the difference in power between Luffy and Zoro is less than Sanji and Zoro. Yes, speed is not going to be much of a factor in their fight, Sanji is only a little faster if at all. Sanji can fly all he wants, but to to damage Zoro he has to come to him.
It's also true that swordsman are a good match-up against Luffy. But the fight also depends on how skilled the swordsman is. Zoro is in the same league as Luffy. Luffy vs Zoro would be a good fight, because the their difference in power is minimized by the fact that Zoro is a good match-up for Luffy.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

When you said you are going to destroy me i thought you would at least put an argument which i would have to counter.

Seeing as how you responded ; it is clear that you countered my argument. Hypocrite much?

Your only argument was sanji can dodge zoro's attacks which in itself is wrong because sanji's speed is only a little bit faster than zoro and you have admitted yourself that sanji CANNOT tank zoro's attacks.

And you have not been able to refute any of my points e.g. Diable Jambe would melt Zoro's Swords. Sanji is not just slightly faster, he's the fastest of the M3.

You also said that sanji have better stamina and speed than zoro.

I did not say Sanji has better durability and stamina. Stop bullsh.itting for arguments sakes.

This is wrong, Zoro has shown better stamina feats or more particularly i should say he have shown better endurance than sanji.

You are correct : it is wrong for someone to make something up which had never occured. You have lost all plausibility in your arguments knowing you had to falsely create something I didn't say.

The best example i can think of is when zoro took all the pain of luffy at thriller bark.

You finally gave evidence! Congrats , however it was a response to an argument you made up in order for me to look foolish. But I never said Sanji is more durable. Sanji has the speed like Bomber , Zoro is the Tank. Put it that way.

Luffy and Sanji are NOT in the same league.

If you're in the M3 you're in the same league. End of discussion. Otherwise they wouldn't be grouped together and compared to eachother by everyone.

You want to tell me luffy will be easily get blitzed by DD or have a hard time against Vergo ?

Sanji vs Vergo: neither of them went all out so that argument is illegit. :|
Besides Luffy will get stomped by Doflamingo unless he is weakened somehow. If Law got stomped what makes you think Luffy won't get stomped? Provide evidence to prove that Luffy is several tiers ahead of Law (which is ridiculous and idiotic , but that's what you seem to be trying to imply.)

OR that sanji can defeat Donchinjao as easily as luffy ? OR if he can solo 500,000 people in one go ?
NOPE, He CAN'T.

So because Luffy has Haoshoku Haki he is superior to Marine admirals which don't have it? Right... perfet logic there my friend. Haoshoku Haki doesn't increase somebodies strength in small scale battles. And since Luffy One Shotted Chinjao in G3 : Yes Sanji could beat Chinjao by using Diable Jambe.

There is a reason why luffy is the captain of this ship.

Indeed. And I never said Sanji or Zoro was stronger. Luffy is the strongest. But Sanji and Zoro are in the same league as both eachother and Luffy.

Are you dumb or what?

Bring on the comedy! I laugh at your statements now... LOL

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The point was Sanji uses only his legs while luffy uses all his body parts. If sanji was to use all his body parts like luffy or zoro, it would make him more stronger.

"more stronger" is not correct grammar. And you're calling me stupid? LOL! And Zoro has only been shown to use his swords and his fists for comedy reasons when he fought Luffy on Whiskey Peak. So going by body parts in all honesty by your "logic" Zoro uses none.

Limiting yourself to only your legs leaves you at big disadvantage and despite of that, sanji has come a far way which is a good thing.

He makes up for that with insane flexibility,reflexes and speed. He's only ever been blitzed by two people: someone at the speed of lightning and someone at the speed of light. Jabra was at the speed of sound but Sanji never really got hit critically.

Do you even read the whole paragraph before quoting me? You don't even know how to quote :|. Like seriously, if you are going to quote line by line and debating on something so irrelevant to the topic, i am done with this debate. I am not even enjoying debating with you.

You quote by using the code

and then

. As you can see I just quoted myself saying "and then". What have I said which is irrelevant? And I also am not enjoying this. Because it's boring and repetitive refuting the same low standard and weak points you make. You're finding it boring because you know you cannot win.

Nope.

Yep.

If you don't have good enough defenses you would get cut half by zoro.

I guess Luffy will get cut in half then... since he has no defense against swords.

Both luffy and akainu have way better haki than sanji

Prove Sanji's inferiority to Luffy in terms of Kenbushoku Haki. Busoshoku Haki is different as you can't tell when Sanji is using it because his legs are already drawn black. Sakazuki is obviously superior. But going by your logic as Sakazuki doesn't have any defense : Zoro would one shot him. Which is obviously wrong.

and with haki alone they can tank zoro's attacks.

Provide evidence.

You are the one who is unable to counter my arguments, rather than showing how sanji can block zoro's attacks you make him run , run and run.

Funny because I've countered everything you've thrown at me. Speed type fighters do run. Got a problem with that? Go talk to Enel and Borsalino b*tch!

Even then you dont provide solid proof of how sanji is able to dodge zoro's attacks.

Provide proof that steel doesn't melt with white hot flames. Steel melts at 1370 degrees c. Guess what temperature Diable Jambe reaches seeing as it's a white hot flame!?:
1400 degrees c.
So in theory he can not only block the attacks. But also lower Zoro's offensive capabilities at the same time. Zoro is stronger but Sanji is very close behind.

As i said, sanji's speed is just slightly faster than zoro , its not like sanji is goku against zoro and can easily dodge any of zoro's attack and speed blitz him.

Thing is Luffy is faster than Zoro in G2. And Sanji is slightly faster than that.

Sanji is NOT dodging every attack zoro throws at him because the difference in their speed is not vast as you making it out to be and since you have admitted that sanji CANNOT tank zoro, sanji lose.

Zoro is NOT blocking every attack Sanji throws at him because the difference in their speed is quite vast, you seem to be refuting this with no evidence of any kind. Sanji doesn't need to tank things. But since you think Tanking is the most important aspect of this fight : is Zoro stronger than the more fragile: Borsalino and Kuzan? No. Tanking isn't everything. Get over it, not just that but get over yourself and your repeated and constantly easily refuted arguments ; come up with something different and plausible which would make an influence in a fight between Sanji and Zoro.

Running =/= winning.

Please explain what you mean by this. I THOUGHT you were against me in this. But apparently not. You just said running = winning. I never said Sanji would run. I said he would dodge Zoro's lower level attacks. (two swords) and three swords he can come up close with Diable Jambe and slowly melt the swords.

WRONG. Already answered before.

ANSWER AGAIN, THIS TIME WITH A PLAUSIBLE ANSWER!

NOPE.

Yep.

if sanji comes in category of "speed based" , both zoro and luffy comes in that category too as both of them are about as fast as sanji. Luffy is probably faster than sanji .

Sanji is the speed type fighter as his attacks revolve around velocity and speed. e.g. Diable Jambe (which Zoro has no answer to other than to get severely burnt in order to find an opening in Sanjis defense).

Diable jambe is also an attack but you counted it. :| Asura doesn't count because you cannot counter it.

Uhmm.... then explain why it isn't a one shot thing like Asura? Sanji has been using Diable Jambe for about one chapter when fighting Jabra ; considerably more panel time than one panel with Asura. Stop making pathetic excuses bro.

Swords aren't getting melted by fire and certainly not zoro's legendary swords.

Using logic , research and science ; DJ is minimally 30 degrees celsius hotter than Zoro's swords melting points , DJ can also reach up to another 100 degrees more. Simples. They can be melted. Diable Jambe is the hottest attack we have seen in One Piece.

In op that logic doesn't apply, in fact, swords are used in OP to cut fire itself.

It's different because there are different types of fire depending on what burns. If Sanjis leg was magnesium it would melt any steel around it.

If swords were so easily melted by fire, cutting fire for any sword user would be impossible.

You're refering to flames created from the likes of wood and the stereotypical fire in manga. White fire is different. Look it up. It's hotter than magma.

Neither i was going in numbers, neither i need your fanboy scaling of powers. All of this is your assumption and not directly stated by Oda.

It's an educated estimation. I'm not a fanboy. I fanboy over Lawd Pappug and nobody else.

And since you failed to understand my point, i would try it again.

Zoro(no haki) attacks sanji(no haki) with swords : Sanji gets cut.

No shit. (if Sanji doesn't dodge or block , you can't just disregard that.)

Zoro (no haki) attacks sanji (with haki) with swords : Sanji blocks the attack due to haki.

And in the process probably breaks the swords.

Zoro (with haki) attacks sanji(with haki) with swords : Sanji gets cut because both of there haki are at same level.(same as first case)

Assuming that he doesn't dodge or block. Right? And by block I mean he can kick the swords out of harms way to divert an attack away from him. Never considered that did you?

If sanji wants to survive zoro's attacks he needs to have better armament haki than zoro. A lot better actually.

No. He simply needs to use Diable Jambe or Hells Memories or like I just said he can kick the swords out of harms way to divert an attack away from him.

On what basis did you come to such a conclusion ? Bascially whats your proof to justify this statement?
Obviously i disagree with the statement.

Because you think Zoro is stronger simply due to swords. But that would mean that anyone who doesn't use swords would lose. I don't need evidence when all I simply need to do is give an example of somebody Zoro cannot beat who doesn't use swords: Monkey. D. Mofo. Luffy. Your logic dictates that Swords are the ultimate weapon or something... Sanji does have an answer but you just can't counter it: so you ignore it.

A gun user obviously have an advantage against a martial artist given that they both are on same level.

In One Piece it's easy to dodge bullets.

Discussed above.

Well your discussion failed.

Proof that sanji has better reflexes than zoro?

Technically they're equal. But since Sanji has been stated to (BY ODA IN AN SBS which I know I will have to find) to have the best Kenbushoku Haki in the M3. Which would mean he would be more efficient at dodging and predicting attacks and therefore countering and responding to an attack. His reflexes are just a bonus but he will have an easier time than Zoro when quick reflexes are required.

Zoro has been shown tokeep up easily against sanji, that alone is enough to prove his reflexes and speed.

I remember such scenes. But base Sanji is not as fast as DJS or HMS.

Irrelevant to the main topic.

All of your arguments are irrelevant.

I never said luffy is weaker than zoro, that is something , you yourself stated.

Actually I was stating how following your poorly explained logic : you can come to such a conclusion.

I merely stated the advantage zoro have ,against luffy, as a sword user.

This my friend is a summary of your argument:

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I agree with most of what this guy says. I believe the difference in power between Luffy and Zoro is less than Sanji and Zoro. Yes, speed is not going to be much of a factor in their fight, Sanji is only a little faster if at all. Sanji can fly all he wants, but to to damage Zoro he has to come to him.
It's also true that swordsman are a good match-up against Luffy. But the fight also depends on how skilled the swordsman is. Zoro is in the same league as Luffy. Luffy vs Zoro would be a good fight, because the their difference in power is minimized by the fact that Zoro is a good match-up for Luffy.

I guess you wank over swords too huh? Yes Zoro is stronger than Sanji as I've already said. But what Frikid is saying is mostly made up bollocks. e.g. he thinks all flames are the same temperature. And Zoro and Sanji are both in the same league with a similar power gap between them and Zoro vs Luffy.

Have the courtesy to read my post and then rethink : what statements do you agree to, what do you disagree to? Why is Frikid clearly losing?

 

[SSS12]

Seeing as how you responded ; it is clear that you countered my argument. Hypocrite much?


And you have not been able to refute any of my points e.g. Diable Jambe would melt Zoro's Swords. Sanji is not just slightly faster, he's the fastest of the M3.


I did not say Sanji has better durability and stamina. Stop bullsh.itting for arguments sakes.


You are correct : it is wrong for someone to make something up which had never occured. You have lost all plausibility in your arguments knowing you had to falsely create something I didn't say.


You finally gave evidence! Congrats , however it was a response to an argument you made up in order for me to look foolish. But I never said Sanji is more durable. Sanji has the speed like Bomber , Zoro is the Tank. Put it that way.


If you're in the M3 you're in the same league. End of discussion. Otherwise they wouldn't be grouped together and compared to eachother by everyone.


Sanji vs Vergo: neither of them went all out so that argument is illegit. :|
Besides Luffy will get stomped by Doflamingo unless he is weakened somehow. If Law got stomped what makes you think Luffy won't get stomped? Provide evidence to prove that Luffy is several tiers ahead of Law (which is ridiculous and idiotic , but that's what you seem to be trying to imply.)


So because Luffy has Haoshoku Haki he is superior to Marine admirals which don't have it? Right... perfet logic there my friend. Haoshoku Haki doesn't increase somebodies strength in small scale battles. And since Luffy One Shotted Chinjao in G3 : Yes Sanji could beat Chinjao by using Diable Jambe.


Indeed. And I never said Sanji or Zoro was stronger. Luffy is the strongest. But Sanji and Zoro are in the same league as both eachother and Luffy.


Bring on the comedy! I laugh at your statements now... LOL

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"more stronger" is not correct grammar. And you're calling me stupid? LOL! And Zoro has only been shown to use his swords and his fists for comedy reasons when he fought Luffy on Whiskey Peak. So going by body parts in all honesty by your "logic" Zoro uses none.


He makes up for that with insane flexibility,reflexes and speed. He's only ever been blitzed by two people: someone at the speed of lightning and someone at the speed of light. Jabra was at the speed of sound but Sanji never really got hit critically.


You quote by using the code . As you can see I just quoted myself saying "and then". What have I said which is irrelevant? And I also am not enjoying this. Because it's boring and repetitive refuting the same low standard and weak points you make. You're finding it boring because you know you cannot win.


Yep.


I guess Luffy will get cut in half then... since he has no defense against swords.


Prove Sanji's inferiority to Luffy in terms of Kenbushoku Haki. Busoshoku Haki is different as you can't tell when Sanji is using it because his legs are already drawn black. Sakazuki is obviously superior. But going by your logic as Sakazuki doesn't have any defense : Zoro would one shot him. Which is obviously wrong.


Provide evidence.


Funny because I've countered everything you've thrown at me. Speed type fighters do run. Got a problem with that? Go talk to Enel and Borsalino b*tch!


Provide proof that steel doesn't melt with white hot flames. Steel melts at 1370 degrees c. Guess what temperature Diable Jambe reaches seeing as it's a white hot flame!?:
1400 degrees c.
So in theory he can not only block the attacks. But also lower Zoro's offensive capabilities at the same time. Zoro is stronger but Sanji is very close behind.


Thing is Luffy is faster than Zoro in G2. And Sanji is slightly faster than that.


Zoro is NOT blocking every attack Sanji throws at him because the difference in their speed is quite vast, you seem to be refuting this with no evidence of any kind. Sanji doesn't need to tank things. But since you think Tanking is the most important aspect of this fight : is Zoro stronger than the more fragile: Borsalino and Kuzan? No. Tanking isn't everything. Get over it, not just that but get over yourself and your repeated and constantly easily refuted arguments ; come up with something different and plausible which would make an influence in a fight between Sanji and Zoro.


Please explain what you mean by this. I THOUGHT you were against me in this. But apparently not. You just said running = winning. I never said Sanji would run. I said he would dodge Zoro's lower level attacks. (two swords) and three swords he can come up close with Diable Jambe and slowly melt the swords.


ANSWER AGAIN, THIS TIME WITH A PLAUSIBLE ANSWER!


Yep.


Sanji is the speed type fighter as his attacks revolve around velocity and speed. e.g. Diable Jambe (which Zoro has no answer to other than to get severely burnt in order to find an opening in Sanjis defense).


Uhmm.... then explain why it isn't a one shot thing like Asura? Sanji has been using Diable Jambe for about one chapter when fighting Jabra ; considerably more panel time than one panel with Asura. Stop making pathetic excuses bro.


Using logic , research and science ; DJ is minimally 30 degrees celsius hotter than Zoro's swords melting points , DJ can also reach up to another 100 degrees more. Simples. They can be melted. Diable Jambe is the hottest attack we have seen in One Piece.


It's different because there are different types of fire depending on what burns. If Sanjis leg was magnesium it would melt any steel around it.


You're refering to flames created from the likes of wood and the stereotypical fire in manga. White fire is different. Look it up. It's hotter than magma.


It's an educated estimation. I'm not a fanboy. I fanboy over Lawd Pappug and nobody else.
No shit. (if Sanji doesn't dodge or block , you can't just disregard that.)
And in the process probably breaks the swords.
Assuming that he doesn't dodge or block. Right? And by block I mean he can kick the swords out of harms way to divert an attack away from him. Never considered that did you?


No. He simply needs to use Diable Jambe or Hells Memories or like I just said he can kick the swords out of harms way to divert an attack away from him.



Because you think Zoro is stronger simply due to swords. But that would mean that anyone who doesn't use swords would lose. I don't need evidence when all I simply need to do is give an example of somebody Zoro cannot beat who doesn't use swords: Monkey. D. Mofo. Luffy. Your logic dictates that Swords are the ultimate weapon or something... Sanji does have an answer but you just can't counter it: so you ignore it.


In One Piece it's easy to dodge bullets.


Well your discussion failed.


Technically they're equal. But since Sanji has been stated to (BY ODA IN AN SBS which I know I will have to find) to have the best Kenbushoku Haki in the M3. Which would mean he would be more efficient at dodging and predicting attacks and therefore countering and responding to an attack. His reflexes are just a bonus but he will have an easier time than Zoro when quick reflexes are required.


I remember such scenes. But base Sanji is not as fast as DJS or HMS.


All of your arguments are irrelevant.


Actually I was stating how following your poorly explained logic : you can come to such a conclusion.


This my friend is a summary of your argument:

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I guess you wank over swords too huh? Yes Zoro is stronger than Sanji as I've already said. But what Frikid is saying is mostly made up bollocks. e.g. he thinks all flames are the same temperature. And Zoro and Sanji are both in the same league with a similar power gap between them and Zoro vs Luffy.

Have the courtesy to read my post and then rethink : what statements do you agree to, what do you disagree to? Why is Frikid clearly losing?

No man, I don't wank over swords. And I did say I agree with most of what he said in that particular post, which I mentioned, not agree with everything.

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Page 62. This is it.
Note:It just says what the character specializes in, implying Luffy specialises in HH but he's also really good with BH and KH. This goes for Sanji and Zoro too. I don't think you can compare and say Sanji has better KH than Zoro just yet, since we haven't seen much from either. Same goes for BH. Technically, Luffy could be the best at all hakis. I did read your posts.

 

[Frikid]

You can say "i win" as much as you want to but that doesn't help your argument.
A good debater will never resort to abusing or trash talking the opposing debater like you are. Only the person who thinks that he is losing or if he thinks he is dragged into a corner, will resort to such a shameful activity.
Don't get so butthurt over a debate on a naruto forum.

I will skip unnecessary stuff. Feel free to point out the skipped stuff if you want it to be discussed upon.

M3's full form ?
Anyways i think by m3 you mean top 3 mugiwara meaning luffy zoro and sanji.
Anyways this logic is wrong. Just because someone is in M3 does NOT make him in same league as the other one.
Luffy have defeated opponents who are out of the league of zoro and sanji.

"Besides Luffy will get stomped by Doflamingo unless he is weakened somehow. If Law got stomped what makes you think Luffy won't get stomped? Provide evidence to prove that Luffy is several tiers ahead of Law (which is ridiculous and idiotic , but that's what you seem to be trying to imply.) "
Law did not get stomped. Fujitora was also helping DD.
Law was holding his against DD alone just fine.
When law was healthy, he had to fight against DD and fujitora.
And now when he have used too much stamina and lost some health, he is supposed to be DD on a 1 on 1 . So this isn't exactly a fully healthy law against DD.
Not implying that law is stronger than DD , just that, law isn't getting stomped by DD. DD would defeat law with mid to high difficulty depending on situation.

So cause Luffy has Haoshoku Haki he is superior to Marine admirals which don't have it? Right... perfet logic there my friend. Haoshoku Haki doesn't increase somebodies strength in small scale battles. And since Luffy One Shotted Chinjao in G3 : Yes Sanji could beat Chinjao by using Diable Jambe.bec

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DD is more worried of luffy than law because luffy have king's haki. I never mentioned admiral level opponent losing to king's haki, this is something you come up with because you didn't have anything better to say.
This is the biggest mistake you are continuously repeating. You keep admiral level people in the same shoes as someone like sanji.

My point was that, king's haki is an important factor which should be kept in mind before comparing two people. And DD's statement further backs up my statement.

Just to tell you the current level of sanji :
Sanji faced difficulty in fighting Vergo.
Law easily defeated Vergo after he got his heart back.
Luffy was stated to be ore dangerous than law due to king's haki.

this should give you a rough idea of the difference in strength between sanji and luffy.

You're finding it boring because you know you cannot win.
If that were the case, i would rather find it challenging than boring.
But too bad, i am finding it boring.

Provide evidence.
What evidence is required ?
With armament haki, they can increase their defense and once enough defense is their, zoro's attack can be tanked unharmed.
---
Regarding the sword and flame thing :
The Samurai have the ability to cut flame itself. It wasn't stated the ability is limited to a certain hotness of a flame.
If swords were so vulnerable to fire as you are making it out to be, an ability to cut fire with sword would not exist.

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↑ Here you can see kinemon stating, "there is no flame he cannot cut" .
His swords aren't getting melted and he is confident enough to cut any kind of flame. This proves that swords in OP are not weak enough to get melted by mere flames, in fact, they can be used to cut flames .
Not to mention, Zoro's swords are not the usual swords but the legendary swords.

Seeing as how you responded ; it is clear that you countered my argument. Hypocrite much?


And you have not been able to refute any of my points e.g. Diable Jambe would melt Zoro's Swords. Sanji is not just slightly faster, he's the fastest of the M3.


I did not say Sanji has better durability and stamina. Stop bullsh.itting for arguments sakes.


You are correct : it is wrong for someone to make something up which had never occured. You have lost all plausibility in your arguments knowing you had to falsely create something I didn't say.


You finally gave evidence! Congrats , however it was a response to an argument you made up in order for me to look foolish. But I never said Sanji is more durable. Sanji has the speed like Bomber , Zoro is the Tank. Put it that way.


If you're in the M3 you're in the same league. End of discussion. Otherwise they wouldn't be grouped together and compared to eachother by everyone.


Sanji vs Vergo: neither of them went all out so that argument is illegit. :|
Besides Luffy will get stomped by Doflamingo unless he is weakened somehow. If Law got stomped what makes you think Luffy won't get stomped? Provide evidence to prove that Luffy is several tiers ahead of Law (which is ridiculous and idiotic , but that's what you seem to be trying to imply.)


So ause Luffy has Haoshoku Haki he is superior to Marine admirals which don't have it? Right... perfet logic there my friend. Haoshoku Haki doesn't increase somebodies strength in small scale battles. And since Luffy One Shotted Chinjao in G3 : Yes Sanji could beat Chinjao by using Diable Jambe.bec


Indeed. And I never said Sanji or Zoro was stronger. Luffy is the strongest. But Sanji and Zoro are in the same league as both eachother and Luffy.


Bring on the comedy! I laugh at your statements now... LOL

Spoiler

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"more stronger" is not correct grammar. And you're calling me stupid? LOL! And Zoro has only been shown to use his swords and his fists for comedy reasons when he fought Luffy on Whiskey Peak. So going by body parts in all honesty by your "logic" Zoro uses none.


He makes up for that with insane flexibility,reflexes and speed. He's only ever been blitzed by two people: someone at the speed of lightning and someone at the speed of light. Jabra was at the speed of sound but Sanji never really got hit critically.


You quote by using the code . As you can see I just quoted myself saying "and then". What have I said which is irrelevant? And I also am not enjoying this. Because it's boring and repetitive refuting the same low standard and weak points you make. You're finding it boring because you know you cannot win.


Yep.


I guess Luffy will get cut in half then... since he has no defense against swords.


Prove Sanji's inferiority to Luffy in terms of Kenbushoku Haki. Busoshoku Haki is different as you can't tell when Sanji is using it because his legs are already drawn black. Sakazuki is obviously superior. But going by your logic as Sakazuki doesn't have any defense : Zoro would one shot him. Which is obviously wrong.


Provide evidence.


Funny because I've countered everything you've thrown at me. Speed type fighters do run. Got a problem with that? Go talk to Enel and Borsalino b*tch!


Provide proof that steel doesn't melt with white hot flames. Steel melts at 1370 degrees c. Guess what temperature Diable Jambe reaches seeing as it's a white hot flame!?:1400 degrees c.
So in theory he can not only block the attacks. But also lower Zoro's offensive capabilities at the same time. Zoro is stronger but Sanji is very close behind.


Thing is Luffy is faster than Zoro in G2. And Sanji is slightly faster than that.


Zoro is NOT blocking every attack Sanji throws at him because the difference in their speed is quite vast, you seem to be refuting this with no evidence of any kind. Sanji doesn't need to tank things. But since you think Tanking is the most important aspect of this fight : is Zoro stronger than the more fragile: Borsalino and Kuzan? No. Tanking isn't everything. Get over it, not just that but get over yourself and your repeated and constantly easily refuted arguments ; come up with something different and plausible which would make an influence in a fight between Sanji and Zoro.


Please explain what you mean by this. I THOUGHT you were against me in this. But apparently not. You just said running = winning. I never said Sanji would run. I said he would dodge Zoro's lower level attacks. (two swords) and three swords he can come up close with Diable Jambe and slowly melt the swords.


ANSWER AGAIN, THIS TIME WITH A PLAUSIBLE ANSWER!


Yep.


Sanji is the speed type fighter as his attacks revolve around velocity and speed. e.g. Diable Jambe (which Zoro has no answer to other than to get severely burnt in order to find an opening in Sanjis defense).


Uhmm.... then explain why it isn't a one shot thing like Asura? Sanji has been using Diable Jambe for about one chapter when fighting Jabra ; considerably more panel time than one panel with Asura. Stop making pathetic excuses bro.


Using logic , research and science ; DJ is minimally 30 degrees celsius hotter than Zoro's swords melting points , DJ can also reach up to another 100 degrees more. Simples. They can be melted. [/B] Diable Jambe is the hottest attack we have seen in One Piece.


It's different because there are different types of fire depending on what burns. If Sanjis leg was magnesium it would melt any steel around it.


You're refering to flames created from the likes of wood and the stereotypical fire in manga. White fire is different. Look it up. It's hotter than magma.


It's an educated estimation. I'm not a fanboy. I fanboy over Lawd Pappug and nobody else.
No shit. (if Sanji doesn't dodge or block , you can't just disregard that.)
And in the process probably breaks the swords.
Assuming that he doesn't dodge or block. Right? And by block I mean he can kick the swords out of harms way to divert an attack away from him. Never considered that did you?


No. He simply needs to use Diable Jambe or Hells Memories or like I just said he can kick the swords out of harms way to divert an attack away from him.



Because you think Zoro is stronger simply due to swords. But that would mean that anyone who doesn't use swords would lose. I don't need evidence when all I simply need to do is give an example of somebody Zoro cannot beat who doesn't use swords: Monkey. D. Mofo. Luffy. Your logic dictates that Swords are the ultimate weapon or something... Sanji does have an answer but you just can't counter it: so you ignore it.


In One Piece it's easy to dodge bullets.


Well your discussion failed.


Technically they're equal. But since Sanji has been stated to (BY ODA IN AN SBS which I know I will have to find) to have the best Kenbushoku Haki in the M3. Which would mean he would be more efficient at dodging and predicting attacks and therefore countering and responding to an attack. His reflexes are just a bonus but he will have an easier time than Zoro when quick reflexes are required.


I remember such scenes. But base Sanji is not as fast as DJS or HMS.


All of your arguments are irrelevant.


Actually I was stating how following your poorly explained logic : you can come to such a conclusion.

--

I guess you wank over swords too huh? Yes Zoro is stronger than Sanji as I've already said. But what Frikid is saying is mostly made up bollocks. e.g. he thinks all flames are the same temperature. And Zoro and Sanji are both in the same league with a similar power gap between them and Zoro vs Luffy.

Have the courtesy to read my post and then rethink : what statements do you agree to, what do you disagree to? Why is Frikid clearly losing?

---

I agree with most of what this guy says. I believe the difference in power between Luffy and Zoro is less than Sanji and Zoro. Yes, speed is not going to be much of a factor in their fight, Sanji is only a little faster if at all. Sanji can fly all he wants, but to to damage Zoro he has to come to him.
It's also true that swordsman are a good match-up against Luffy. But the fight also depends on how skilled the swordsman is. Zoro is in the same league as Luffy. Luffy vs Zoro would be a good fight, because the their difference in power is minimized by the fact that Zoro is a good match-up for Luffy.

Thanks for agreeing. I am glad to know i am not the only one.
I also agree with everything you stated.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

You can say "i win" as much as you want to but that doesn't help your argument.
A good debater will never resort to abusing or trash talking the opposing debater like you are. Only the person who thinks that he is losing or if he thinks he is dragged into a corner, will resort to such a shameful activity.

It's funny because you just accused me of something psychological which cannot be proven. That sir is also something which those losing who know they are losing will do in order to try and gain ground upon the opponent. I don't remember saying "I win" and even if I did it would be because there isn't a way for you to counter a conclusive argument. Quite simple really.

Don't get so butthurt over a debate on a naruto forum.

Who said I was butthurt? The fact you think I'm butthurt proves you're now trying to mock me to gain ground on your opponent because you know you're losing.

I will skip unnecessary stuff. Feel free to point out the skipped stuff if you want it to be discussed upon.

All the stuff skipped. Because all the stuff you skip is stuff you : cannot counter, know is right, can be used when compiled to bring people reading this to the conclusion that you're incorrect.

M3's full form ?

What do you mean by this? They don't have Zoan fruits...

Anyways i think by m3 you mean top 3 mugiwara meaning luffy zoro and sanji.
Anyways this logic is wrong. Just because someone is in M3 does NOT make him in same league as the other one.
Luffy have defeated opponents who are out of the league of zoro and sanji.

Anyone would know who the M3 are if they have read One Piece. Even the rest of the crew have previously referred to them as a monster trio. Hence the name M3.

Since they are being commonly compared to eachother and grouped together it's safe to say that the M3 is in the same league. We know the order of strength, you just seem to think they're so far apart. If they're as far apart why isn't there a K2 (Kami duo being Luffy and Zoro) and an M2 (Monster duo being Sanji and Franky (as the fourth strongest member of the crew)). If Sanji is as weak as you say he is in comparison to Zoro why is the previous not the case? Or why isn't there an M4? You make it seem like Sanji is powerless to Zoro.

You must be referring to Lucci in comparison to Jabra and Kaku right? But look at the aftermath and the condition of the M3 after their battles. Sanji and Zoro where not exhausted and could still fight to a high capability.

Law did not get stomped. Fujitora was also helping DD.

We only saw Fujitora pull down a meteor on both Doflamingo and Law. He only helped Doflamingo to keep Law down once he fell as seen here:

Spoiler

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Law was holding his against DD alone just fine.

No....

Spoiler

Law being thrown around

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Law needing an escape plan because he knows he will die

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I'd say since he was being toyed with: that's a stomp. Just like Sanji getting stomped.

When law was healthy, he had to fight against DD and fujitora.

Spoiler

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Doflamingo went through the same ordeal of cutting a meteor. Then we saw nothing from Fujitora until after the fight.

And now when he have used too much stamina and lost some health, he is supposed to be DD on a 1 on 1 . So this isn't exactly a fully healthy law against DD.

He was fully healthy at the start. He never used his DF.

Not implying that law is stronger than DD , just that, law isn't getting stomped by DD. DD would defeat law with mid to high difficulty depending on situation.

I already proved he was stomped. Your arguments have been totally invalid so far.

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Notice how he says potential. Not that he is stronger. Haoshoku Haki helps in battles against superior numbers when the gap in strength is so significant to the point where the opponents are miniscule in comparison. This is not the case with any supernova or Sanji in comparison to Luffy.

DD is more worried of luffy than law because luffy have king's haki.

Because he can take out all of his lesser subordinates.

I never mentioned admiral level opponent losing to king's haki, this is something you come up with because you didn't have anything better to say.

Wasn't it obvious that I simply followed the formula of your logic and reached that conclusion. It's because your logic is obsolete that I came to such a conclusion. If I didn't have anything better to say then explain how I proved that logic to be incorrect , Haoshoku Haki would be irrelevant in a fight vs Sanji or Zoro.

This is the biggest mistake you are continuously repeating. You keep admiral level people in the same shoes as someone like sanji.

I am simply finding loopholes in your logics because they come to odd conclusions which you know are false. You said that "if you have no defense against swords you will get cut in half against Zoro". Akainu goes all out attack. Going by your logic because he has no defensive techniques he loses to Zoro. This is the type of point I'm maing which you cannot counter and therefore assume I'm being an idiot. However in reality after my in depth explanation to your interpretation of my response ; I am sure you know as well as I that you've been making incorrect statements since the beginning.

My point was that, king's haki is an important factor which should be kept in mind before comparing two people. And DD's statement further backs up my statement.

The strength gap has to be incredible. Luffy's Haoshoku Haki would probably work on the Weak Trio and have a minima effect on the middle trio. Sanji is above them.

Just to tell you the current level of sanji :
Sanji faced difficulty in fighting Vergo.
Law easily defeated Vergo after he got his heart back.
Luffy was stated to be ore dangerous than law due to king's haki.

Reality check:
1. Sanji was already knackered and injured because of Nami being in his body.
2. Neither Vergo or Sanji went all out so the fight comparison is illegit anyways (WHICH I SAID IN THE POST YOUR RESPONSE WAS TO!!!!)
3. Because he can take out the weaklings which would stall them for time.

this should give you a rough idea of the difference in strength between sanji and luffy.

No it doesn't.

If that were the case, i would rather find it challenging than boring.
But too bad, i am finding it boring.

Like I said before ; because you're fighting for pride instead of winning a debate now.

What evidence is required ?

The fact you question this means you have no evidence.

With armament haki, they can increase their defense and once enough defense is their, zoro's attack can be tanked unharmed.

Indeed.

Regarding the sword and flame thing :
The Samurai have the ability to cut flame itself. It wasn't stated the ability is limited to a certain hotness of a flame.
If swords were so vulnerable to fire as you are making it out to be, an ability to cut fire with sword would not exist.

May I point out that those are orange flames?
Look at all of these flame temperatures:

Spoiler

Red (the flames you speak of)
Just visible: 525 °C (980 °F)
Dull: 700 °C (1,300 °F)
Cherry, dull: 800 °C (1,500 °F)
Cherry, full: 900 °C (1,700 °F)
Cherry, clear: 1,000 °C (1,800 °F)
Orange (the flames you speak of)
Deep: 1,100 °C (2,000 °F)
Clear: 1,200 °C (2,200 °F)
White (Diable Jambe)
Whitish: 1,300 °C (2,400 °F)
Steel melting point: 1,370 °C (2,498 °F)
Bright: 1,400 °C (2,600 °F)
Dazzling: 1,500 °C (2,700 °F)

The only fire we've seen swords cut are the coldest flames. Simple. End of discussion. This argument of yours is almost entirely baseless as you assume that swords can cut something which will inevitably melt the blades. If they go soft and less aerodynamic there is no way in hell they can cut the flames you speak of (only by being melted by white flames). You can try and disprove facts all you like ; but it's impossible to do so successfully.

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↑ Here you can see kinemon stating, "there is no flame he cannot cut" .

Note how Diable Jambe is the hottest fire based attack in One Piece. Only Enels Goro Goro no Mi is hotter (the air after a lightning strike). Kine'mon has not encountered Diable Jambe before has he?

His swords aren't getting melted and he is confident enough to cut any kind of flame. This proves that swords in OP are not weak enough to get melted by mere flames, in fact, they can be used to cut flames .

It's not about how weak a sword is. As a sword is a sword ,made of the same materials and therefore will all melt at 1,370 degrees Celsius. The flames you speak of are regular , the flames I speak of is Diable Jambe. Stop ignoring that , because you keep ignoring that you know you've been proven incorrect.

Not to mention, Zoro's swords are not the usual swords but the legendary swords.

Yes , the legendary unmeltable swords right? Because I've never heard them being called that before. Reputation also does not effect or change what a sword is made from. That's a childs logic right there.

I rest my case. I will only respond to your post if you do not use primitive logic and realize that White Hot flames are hotter than a swords melting point (which is factual).

 

[Bogard]

Their "rivality" you talk about is just comic relief. In serious situations, Zoro is portrayed as stronger. Currently he has comparable feats to Luffy even. Sanji is portrayed to be by a decent gap weaker than them

 

[Kuzan]

Their "rivality" you talk about is just comic relief. In serious situations, Zoro is portrayed as stronger. Currently he has comparable feats to Luffy even. Sanji is portrayed to be by a decent gap weaker than them

Ofcourse he is weaker, but not by a decent gap... Could you name the feats that are comparable to Luffy?

 

[Frikid]

Their "rivality" you talk about is just comic relief. In serious situations, Zoro is portrayed as stronger. Currently he has comparable feats to Luffy even. Sanji is portrayed to be by a decent gap weaker than them

yes. Exactly.

---

@rinnemaki :

When someone say "any flame" he literally means "any flame ". White,Blue, green, yellow, red, black ... whatever flame you can come up with, can be cut by him or at least that is what he said. Anyone with a brain can understand that.
i mean seriously, he literally said " there is no flame i cannot cut ". How can it be more obvious than that? You are questioning the manga itself now

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.
What do you understand by this statement ? This statement means that kinemon wants to say that he can cut every flame that exists in nature . You automatically brought white flame into the exception because you COULD NOT come up with any counter, so you just made up some BS . Oh well this is what little kids and fanboys do, they make something up because they cannot counter it. No surprise really.


Post by post the quality of your arguments is getting worse and worse. You are not even debating anymore, more than 50% of what you posted in your argument was not relevant to the main topic we were discussing upon.

You failed to prove how sanji damages zoro and yourself admitted that zoro not just have better armament haki but brute strength.
And yeah then you bring real life logic in OP, now explain by using this "real" life logic, how can someone create invisible armour around themselves or defeat someone by just will alone Or maybe explanation of how someone can turn himself into rubber,smoke,fire,poision,gas and what not.
This is OP world we are discussing about, real life logic isn't supposed to be forced in here.

The way you portray your arguments, it can't be more obvious that you got butthurt.
Posting some gif pics of a guy masturbating , then self proclaiming again and again that you are winning this debate, jumping rashly on anyone who agrees with me, calling me abusive words like b!tch etc... it cannot be more obvious really.

And then when i stated how law was holding his own against DD alone, you post some manga pages of how fujitora + DD overwhelmed law.

AS i said, i am not enjoying this debate anymore. Unless you come up with something worthy of my time, i am done with this debate. I am disappointed.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Your idiocy is incredible. Kinemon hasn't encountered the hottest type of flames (white) ; I don't see a need to respond to this but let me ask you this: compare a solid sword to liquid iron or steel: which would be better at cutting?

Sanji would damage the swords by using Diable Jambe. He is faster and more efficient at dodging attacks due to his Kenbushoku Haki.

Zoro is stronger but not by much.

Good bye. Come back with relevant arguments next time. You were never good at debating. You got served by me and Caliburn on the Bari Bari no Mi debate. And you got served again ; you just refuse to accept it.

 

[Bogard]

Ofcourse he is weaker, but not by a decent gap... Could you name the feats that are comparable to Luffy?

Here you go

Fishman Island

1- Zoro one-shoted the arc villain in FI when he was at a disadvantage of fighting a fishmen(faster under water) under water and difficulties to breath, same villain Luffy had trouble to beat(albeit far stronger with drugs)

2- Hyouzou who was countering Gear second Luffy, someone Luffy admitted to be strong(hype) was boring to Zoro(despite upgrade and transformation thru drugs)

In the FI, while Zoro and Luffy were replacing each other to fight the strongest, Sanji was fighting underlings

Punk Hazard

1- Luffy and Zoro are showed in pair to fight a dragon finally one-shoted by Zoro

2- Luffy fights Monet and almost lose while Monet admits she never thought she could have been able to beat him. When she meets Zoro, she repeats the same sentence and we discover later that Zoro was only playing with her one-shoting a logia without using haki, just through fear, to the point that Tashigi who grew up with VA levels like Smoker was totally shocked by how much strong he really was

See the comparison now?

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Here you go

Fishman Island

1- Zoro one-shoted the arc villain in FI when he was at a disadvantage of fighting a fishmen(faster under water) under water and difficulties to breath, same villain Luffy had trouble to beat(albeit far stronger with drugs)

Exactly: albeit far stronger with drugs. Making this feat pretty much illegit as we cannot compare Hody on his quadruple (or was it triple) overdose to anything. All we know is he was stronger than Jinbe (as Jinbe had trouble fighting G2 Luffy using low level Haki). He forced Luffy to go all out.

2- Hyouzou who was countering Gear second Luffy, someone Luffy admitted to be strong(hype) was boring to Zoro(despite upgrade and transformation thru drugs)

This would be legit if Luffy's arms were black when he hit Hyouzou. But cause he didn't it's like fending off PRE TS G2 Luffy. Not very impressive at all to be fair.

In the FI, while Zoro and Luffy were replacing each other to fight the strongest, Sanji was fighting underlings

All of the strongest underlings. Zoro and Luffy didn't switch enemies. Zoro fought Hyouzou and Doson and tons of fodder. Whereas Luffy fought Hody. Sanji fought Wadatsumi , tons of fodder and Ikaros.

Punk Hazard

1- Luffy and Zoro are showed in pair to fight a dragon finally one-shoted by Zoro

Luffy was playing with it. Whereas the dragon was dead serious.

2- Luffy fights Monet and almost lose while Monet admits she never thought she could have been able to beat him. When she meets Zoro, she repeats the same sentence and we discover later that Zoro was only playing with her one-shoting a logia without using haki, just through fear, to the point that Tashigi who grew up with VA levels like Smoker was totally shocked by how much strong he really was

Luffy used no Haki, nor did he go even close to full power. He was caught in a trap. On the other hand Zoro did go all out with the intention of killing Monet (whereas Luffy only wanted to follow Caesar). Zoro was not playing with Monet. "Without using Haki" was due to killing intent (which may be Haoshoku Haki anyways), it's illegit as fear is what weakened Monet , not the genuine strength of Zoro. Tashigi is not VA LEVEL.

Luffy and Zoro are very close in strength. However there is no way they are equals.

 

[Frikid]

Your idiocy is incredible. Kinemon hasn't encountered the hottest type of flames (white) ; I don't see a need to respond to this but let me ask you this: compare a solid sword to liquid iron or steel: which would be better at cutting?

Sanji would damage the swords by using Diable Jambe. He is faster and more efficient at dodging attacks due to his Kenbushoku Haki.

Zoro is stronger but not by much.

Good bye. Come back with relevant arguments next time. You were never good at debating. You got served by me and Caliburn on the Bari Bari no Mi debate. And you got served again ; you just refuse to accept it.

Proof he hasn't encountered white flame?
You are denying manga fact itself(no surprise the way u debate) , when he said he can cut any flame, he CAN cut any flame.


I can agree with caliburn on bari bari no mi debate(or maybe not) , but you ?
oh please, your reply was so stupid that i didn't even bother to reply it.
Barto just defeated 2x good melee fighters in that round and your argument was that barrier doesn't work on direct punches?
what BS.


Ask anyone with brain and you will realize who was debating how.
You yourself cannot judge yourself because one will always keep himself above everyone else due to his ego.
It is because you are the one opposing me that you think you are the superior one.Your ego will not allow you to admit inferiority and i don't even ask you to admit it.
As i said, i got really bored while debating with you and you also started saying cheap things.
It is you who don't want to accept it not me, otherwise you wont resort to such abuses.

It is you who is so focused on winning, i never cared about winning or losing. I do debates only for my enjoyment/entertaiment, not for crushing my enemy or beating someone so that i can feel better about myself. This is not the way i think.

Its funny how you call me idiot when you are the one who is denying a manga fact.
You should know your place before you call anyone idiot.
Oh well its the internet so i shouldn't be surprised.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Proof he hasn't encountered white flame?
You are denying manga fact itself(no surprise the way u debate) , when he said he can cut any flame, he CAN cut any flame.


I can agree with caliburn on bari bari no mi debate(or maybe not) , but you ?
oh please, your reply was so stupid that i didn't even bother to reply it.
Barto just defeated 2x good melee fighters in that round and your argument was that barrier doesn't work on direct punches?
what BS.


Ask anyone with brain and you will realize who was debating how.
You yourself cannot judge yourself because one will always keep himself above everyone else due to his ego.
It is because you are the one opposing me that you think you are the superior one.Your ego will not allow you to admit inferiority and i don't even ask you to admit it.
As i said, i got really bored while debating with you and you also started saying cheap things.
It is you who don't want to accept it not me, otherwise you wont resort to such abuses.

It is you who is so focused on winning, i never cared about winning or losing. I do debates only for my enjoyment/entertaiment, not for crushing my enemy or beating someone so that i can feel better about myself. This is not the way i think.

Its funny how you call me idiot when you are the one who is denying a manga fact.
You should know your place before you call anyone idiot.
Oh well its the internet so i shouldn't be surprised.

Another pathetic and illegit post. If Kinemon had encountered white flames then his sword would melt. Simply put : he hasn't encountered flames which melt swords yet. Sanji is the only person in the OPV who has used white flames.

I know I'm right as all of my arguments against your points have not been refuted successfully. I will resume when you actually have proof that swords don't melt when they reach temperatures of their melting point. How stupid does that sound? Very. Because factually a sword will melt in white flames. Why else is metal permeable when it's white hot? Going against facts get you nowhere and until you realize this a full on debate cannot continue.

Bye bye Mr Inferior