Would Jiraya have received the orochimaru treatment from Itachi

[vaibhav16591]

Talking about people with this power is actually not right... If one of them gets the other in his jutsu its all over... But when you have shinobis of this caliber catching one in their jutsu is a whole level more difficult than imagined both gray and Itachi fight with their brains and both have almost taken down pain... Though j-man took half of pain whereas Itachi has lots of support and other staff involved....

Still itachi ran away for no good reason he isn't the kind to underestimate any opponent and analyses everyone well....

He was the one who pointed out to Kisame not to underestimate Might guy and guy proved that he's not one to be underestimated , similarly he analyzed Kabuto and decided he could defeat him and did that.....

so if itachi retreated there is a reason for that and we should stop this.... similarly if itachi is caught in the frog genjutsu its over for him..... so its not like itachi is the only one with OP jutsus around.

 

[~Zonta~]

Itachi is no doubt one of the greatest ninja but you are also seriously underestimating Jiraya here ..........

Jiraya is on whole other level plus we can't forget Orochimaru keeps coming back over and over even if Itachi sealed him once

 

[ThomasJeffersonwasasadist]

That's not proof there was direct eye contact just them looking at one another. Orochimaru wouldn't have been fodderized so bad if he hadn't been so cocky. Jiryaia might have lost but he would have put up a fight and did have the potential to win if it wasn't 2v1. Ill provide a scenario. Jiryaia uses his toad stomach jutsu forcing a temporary retreat allowing him to enter sage mode and get ma and pa to begin preparing frog song. If it had gone that way he could have killed itachi and kisame.

 

[Nakamazi Itchigo]

Yeah I think if Itachi had to be serious then Jiraiya would've fallen victim to it :'(

 

[Baka Sennin]

Right.. Jiraya put himself in an enclosed hallway with limited space... 1 amaterasu, and he would have died.. he's nothing to orochimaru just like orochimaru was back then ...none of the sannin were on his level


Even the THIRD stated that there IS prob no leaf ninja currently alive that could beat orochimaru not even himself..

Then oro himself, the one that was praised said beating Itachi was an impossible dream as he's stronger than him..

jiraiya has a known sealing method for amaterasu, plus he uses a lot of bunshin and toad shadow manipulations, fooling both akatsuki members he went up against with a winning strategy both times. it's not unthinkable that he'd be able to do the same to itachi, particularly as itachi has already fallen prey to this once vs kakashi. obviously to preserve itachi's status he's never fought a bunshin user, naruto has never used bunshin against him despite it being his signature techniques and best counter vs the sharingan. they can easily use clones to implement chiyo's strategy

also when hiruzen said that, neither jiraiya nor tsunade were konoha nin. the strongest was hiruzen followed by kakashi, and in part one kakashi actually posed a bigger threat to itachi than he did to oro.

as to orochimaru, he was saying that in the context that he was unable to take him over. he said something like- if we could get him to our side, our problems would be solved, but that's a dream because he's stronger than me. orochimaru asides from being destined to lose to itachi mythologically will always lose to uchiha simply because he doesn't go to kill but to absorb, a futile task given their sharingan. he has a couple of hokage in his arsenal, if his goal was to kill he could have done so, although as i said itachi is slightly stronger and i don't count ET as part of the user's power. but you're underestimating the sannin badly, itachi was just portrayed the best light possible whereas the sannin were not. i'd like to see itachi in jiraiya's shoes vs pain, the animal path would have sufficed.

 

[blazekev90]

If anyone is standing face-to-face with Itachi how can they avoid his genjutsu?

 

[KidGamer65]

Itachi would have made him look like a Genin.

 

[Penguin]

yes? No one stands up to itachi's genjutsu and struts away.
Itachi just isn't a blood thirsty killer that kills anyone who looks at him

Tell that to Sasuke.

 

[Twin Steps]

When Jiraya can dodge an amaterasu -_- this becomes a legitamate question
when he can not get 1 shot by tsukyomi , this becomes a legitamate question
when his frog summonings can't get controlled and turned against him by sharingan genjutsu, yea... ,

Well, consider the terrain. If it's an open area, like a filed, Itachi has the advantage, but if it's somewhere like Nagato's tower in Amegakarue, Jiriaya's got the advantage.

 

[Owarij]

jiraiya has a known sealing method for amaterasu, plus he uses a lot of bunshin and toad shadow manipulations, fooling both akatsuki members he went up against with a winning strategy both times. it's not unthinkable that he'd be able to do the same to itachi, particularly as itachi has already fallen prey to this once vs kakashi. obviously to preserve itachi's status he's never fought a bunshin user, naruto has never used bunshin against him despite it being his signature techniques and best counter vs the sharingan. they can easily use clones to implement chiyo's strategy

also when hiruzen said that, neither jiraiya nor tsunade were konoha nin. the strongest was hiruzen followed by kakashi, and in part one kakashi actually posed a bigger threat to itachi than he did to oro.

as to orochimaru, he was saying that in the context that he was unable to take him over. he said something like- if we could get him to our side, our problems would be solved, but that's a dream because he's stronger than me. orochimaru asides from being destined to lose to itachi mythologically will always lose to uchiha simply because he doesn't go to kill but to absorb, a futile task given their sharingan. he has a couple of hokage in his arsenal, if his goal was to kill he could have done so, although as i said itachi is slightly stronger and i don't count ET as part of the user's power. but you're underestimating the sannin badly, itachi was just portrayed the best light possible whereas the sannin were not. i'd like to see itachi in jiraiya's shoes vs pain, the animal path would have sufficed.

Jiraya knows how to create the fire sealing method but what good will that do? he still has to put a scroll on the floor, take out pen and ink and draw the seals.. like he did in part 1... that isn't going to help him in a fight, as no ninja would just watch him do that.. not to mention you forget that there will be extremely hot flames spreading and burning him at the same time


Naruto has used bunshin on Itachi fyi, and he easily took them out with his Shruiken ability without even looking.. so I don't see what difference it would make if Jiraya was the one fighting

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You keep saying Jiraya will fight with this method but we've never seen him fight like that at all.. 1 kage bunshin takes 50% of your chakra, not to mention Jiraya isn't even near kakashi's level of intelligence so I don't see why you think he'd fight like that... Ninjas that have been portrayed as being much smarter than Jiraya have went up against uchihas armed with great genjutsu skills and none of them have done the kage bunshin method..why? because if it dies its a half of your chakra wasted away......

You come with the whole orochimaru doesn't go to kill argument, once again , NOTHING in the manga suggest orochimaru tried to take Itachi's body... he never used the ritual, and it was Only AFTER losing to Itachi that he decided he wanted a uchiha body (databook sated) , not that it matters in the end, as it isn't about Absorb or kill, Orochimaru admitted complete inferiority to Itachi and he was referring to STRENGTH...

As for What hiruzen said... Tsunade and jiraya were not in konoha at the given moment, but they were konoha ninja.. and hiruzen was speaking about konoha ninja whether there or not, which is why he even referenced Minato who was dead, and said he wished he was here...
If he thought Jiraya could defeat orochimaru, he would have said the same of Jiraya ... but did he? no , he said most likely no konoha ninja can take oro... and this is oro BEFORE he even knew he had edo tensei

 

[Blaze Release]

No one can actually prove how itachi beats jiriaya , but i can sure as hell prove how jiriaya beats him.

You guys need to let go of stuff from part 1.


Positive if i was to upload you some of the arguments from another website you will shudder.
Anway if we were to assume that Jiraiya was looking into Itachi's eyes, he isn't doing any better than orochimaru, for a couple of simple reasons.

Firstly the DB gives out scores according to mastery in that field and expertise. Meaning those with the highest stats for a particular field have gain worthy of 5/5. Orochimaru had a better chance of getting out of the genjutsu, than if lets say he put jiraiya there, because orochimaru's expertise is greater in this field than jiraiya and this is evident, in oro getting maximum scores, whilst jiraiya got a 3. Its rather simple if orochimaru struggled with that genjutsu, jiraiya is doing worse.

However that wasn't so much Orochimaru's fault. Genjutsu comes in many forms. Seal based, ocular based and sound based. How to get out of these genjutsu's differ accordingly. Its because of ocular based genjutsu that the flee on sight order was placed on the uchiha, however in a 2 vs 1 case, if one is put into an illusion the other can break them free. [

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]. We have seen this happen to the kage's. [

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,

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]. Onoki releasing Ai.

That is how ocular genjutsu works, that is the method of bests method of getting out of it, because by yourself it will take too long. DB further supports this [

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]

So for ocular based genjutsu the best method is 2 vs 1. For seal based genjutsu you dispel the illusion yourself.
What is funny about this is that, Jiraiya method, the seal based genjutsu failed against itachi's seal based illusion. The best method of dealing with seal based genjutsu wasn't enough and in the end naruto had to rely on the ocular based method (sakura and chiyo, dispelling it).

This could translate in many way. It could mean that itachi's prowess with genjutsu is so good that even his seal based illusions elude the method, of dealing with this form of genjutsu. (Perhaps the powerful chakra of the uchiha has something to do with it)

It could mean naruto hadn't mastered breaking out of it.
However if jiraiya's method failed against a strategy it is supposed to work against, the chances of jiraiya breaking out an ocular based method isn't happening. It short, jiraiya would have a troublesome time than orochimaru did.

As for the orochimaru scenario, itself there is more than what meets the eye from the confrontation, between itachi and orochimaru. When two ninja's of equal strength are pitted against each other, the start to understand each other. A quote from the second db "But it is hard to say that just these reflect Itachi's abilities. His true potential can only be recognized by those in his level.". The highlighted part says it all. To get past your opponent without revealing your true strength is something that itachi is very good at. Something that orochimaru, kakashi and deidora have all faced. They have all admitted inferiority and in all these cases, it wasn't so much because they lost, but rather they knew there was more to itachi than what meets the eye.

Now some people claim well, orochimaru was weak therefore he lost or he wanted itachi's body. Both is true however its more than that. Orochiamru after failing to get itachi wouldve have gotten another vessel for the mean time. Meaning he was back to full strength, after what itachi did to him, he didn't go back to try and take over his body, nor did he go back for revenge. He had given up on itachi's body, so at least he could go back for revenge without thinking about damaging his body, yet he didn't, he later somewhat admitted that the only way for his to defeat itachi is with sasuke's body [

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]. Because itachi made him understand that he was blatantly inferior even if both were at 100% and orochimaru and the manga has admitted inferiority on more than 6 or more so times. For example another chapter were orochimaru admits inferiority to itachi is here [

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].

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.

Now another nonsense i keep hearing is that after orochimaru got his hand cut off he could've still fought if he wanted to. I ask you this, what hand seals is orochimaru forming with one hand. To my knowledge all shinobi's apart from haku need both hands to perform majority of their techniques. True some of orochimaru's arsenal doesn't require hand seals, but ill think majority of his arsenal would. With one hand cut off, he isn't weaving handseals like haku, because that is something he cannot do. Simple actually, if the fight went on and orochimaru forgot about taking over itachi's body, he would have lost because he would have to rely on the techniques that has no bearing on his ability to form seals and there aren't many in his arsenal.

The strategy to cut his hand, i believe was just because he was forcing his way out of the illusion but also now he has majority of his techniques taken away because he cannot form the seals with one hand. Not to turn this into a vs thread because i have no interest, but also there is a far, far, far better place to go if interested in vs section, but from manga portrayal orochimaru even outside of edo tensei is the strongest of the sannins. Some might argue he is equal to jiraiya and perhaps, however he jiraiya certainly isn't stronger than him. If orochimaru had admitted inferiority something that going by his personality is very rare, but also to my knowledge he hasn't before done even to jiraiya that is enough to state that orochimaru has in fact put itachi above himself and the other sannins

 

[Orochimaruofthesound]

For a legitimate reason or just because you like Jiraya?

becasue Orochimaru is smarter than jiraya is.

Thats noe ms activated besides Jiraya is not a puch over he solod three pains. and pain is considerably stronger than itachi

 

[ThomasJeffersonwasasadist]

You guys need to let go of stuff from part 1.


Positive if i was to upload you some of the arguments from another website you will shudder.
Anway if we were to assume that Jiraiya was looking into Itachi's eyes, he isn't doing any better than orochimaru, for a couple of simple reasons.

Firstly the DB gives out scores according to mastery in that field and expertise. Meaning those with the highest stats for a particular field have gain worthy of 5/5. Orochimaru had a better chance of getting out of the genjutsu, than if lets say he put jiraiya there, because orochimaru's expertise is greater in this field than jiraiya and this is evident, in oro getting maximum scores, whilst jiraiya got a 3. Its rather simple if orochimaru struggled with that genjutsu, jiraiya is doing worse.

However that wasn't so much Orochimaru's fault. Genjutsu comes in many forms. Seal based, ocular based and sound based. How to get out of these genjutsu's differ accordingly. Its because of ocular based genjutsu that the flee on sight order was placed on the uchiha, however in a 2 vs 1 case, if one is put into an illusion the other can break them free. [

You must be registered for see links

]. We have seen this happen to the kage's. [

You must be registered for see links

,

You must be registered for see links

]. Onoki releasing Ai.

That is how ocular genjutsu works, that is the method of bests method of getting out of it, because by yourself it will take too long. DB further supports this [

You must be registered for see links

]

So for ocular based genjutsu the best method is 2 vs 1. For seal based genjutsu you dispel the illusion yourself.
What is funny about this is that, Jiraiya method, the seal based genjutsu failed against itachi's seal based illusion. The best method of dealing with seal based genjutsu wasn't enough and in the end naruto had to rely on the ocular based method (sakura and chiyo, dispelling it).

This could translate in many way. It could mean that itachi's prowess with genjutsu is so good that even his seal based illusions elude the method, of dealing with this form of genjutsu. (Perhaps the powerful chakra of the uchiha has something to do with it)

It could mean naruto hadn't mastered breaking out of it.
However if jiraiya's method failed against a strategy it is supposed to work against, the chances of jiraiya breaking out an ocular based method isn't happening. It short, jiraiya would have a troublesome time than orochimaru did.

As for the orochimaru scenario, itself there is more than what meets the eye from the confrontation, between itachi and orochimaru. When two ninja's of equal strength are pitted against each other, the start to understand each other. A quote from the second db "But it is hard to say that just these reflect Itachi's abilities. His true potential can only be recognized by those in his level.". The highlighted part says it all. To get past your opponent without revealing your true strength is something that itachi is very good at. Something that orochimaru, kakashi and deidora have all faced. They have all admitted inferiority and in all these cases, it wasn't so much because they lost, but rather they knew there was more to itachi than what meets the eye.

Now some people claim well, orochimaru was weak therefore he lost or he wanted itachi's body. Both is true however its more than that. Orochiamru after failing to get itachi wouldve have gotten another vessel for the mean time. Meaning he was back to full strength, after what itachi did to him, he didn't go back to try and take over his body, nor did he go back for revenge. He had given up on itachi's body, so at least he could go back for revenge without thinking about damaging his body, yet he didn't. Because itachi made him understand that he was blatantly inferior even if both were at 100% and orochimaru and the manga has admitted inferiority on more than 6 or more so times. For example another chapter were orochimaru admits inferiority to itachi is here [

You must be registered for see links

].

You must be registered for see images

.

Now another nonsense i keep hearing is that after orochimaru got his hand cut off he could've still fought if he wanted to. I ask you this, what hand seals is orochimaru forming with one hand. To my knowledge all shinobi's apart from haku need both hands to perform majority of their techniques. True some of orochimaru's arsenal doesn't require hand seals, but ill think majority of his arsenal would. With one hand cut off, he isn't weaving handseals like haku, because that is something he cannot do. Simple actually, if the fight went on and orochimaru forgot about taking over itachi's body, he would have lost because he would have to rely on the techniques that has no bearing on his ability to form seals and there aren't many in his arsenal.

The strategy to cut his hand, i believe was just because he was forcing his way out of the illusion but also now he has majority of his techniques taken away because he cannot form the seals with one hand. Not to turn this into a vs thread because i have no interest, but also there is a far, far, far better place to go if interested in vs section, but from manga portrayal orochimaru even outside of edo tensei is the strongest of the sannins. Some might argue he is equal to jiraiya and perhaps, however he jiraiya certainly isn't stronger than him. If orochimaru had admitted inferiority something that going by his personality is very rare, but also to my knowledge he hasn't before done even to jiraiya that is enough to state that orochimaru has in fact put itachi above himself and the other sannins

Jiryaia and oro are roughly equal but a>b>c logic is inherently flawed. Itachi and jiryaia were looking at each other it doesn't exactly show him looking into his eyes. Jiryaia forced a temporary retreat with frog stomach after that he could hide like he did from pain enter sage mode and get ma and pa to prepare frog song. The fight is 50/50 between jiryaia and itachi, 50/50 between orochimaru and jiryaia and 0/100 between orochimaru and itachi.

 

[Bogard]

Manga already portrayed them as equals but obviously Itachi fanboys refuse to accept it. A Itachi of that period without MS would have been killed really quickly by Jman. Contrary to the popular belief, Jman was the strongest sannin. It's for that reason he was the only one among them to be able to use Sage Mode which is portrayed to be MS equal in this manga(Madara-Hashirama, Naruto-Sasuke, etc)

 

[Blaze Release]

Jiryaia and oro are roughly equal but a>b>c logic is inherently flawed. Itachi and jiryaia were looking at each other it doesn't exactly show him looking into his eyes. Jiryaia forced a temporary retreat with frog stomach after that he could hide like he did from pain enter sage mode and get ma and pa to prepare frog song. The fight is 50/50 between jiryaia and itachi, 50/50 between orochimaru and jiryaia and 0/100 between orochimaru and itachi.

Never referred to a,b, c logic. True i did say orochimaru putting itachi above himself also states that he has put itachi above the sannins and that is true. However to be stronger than someone doesn't mean you will beat them, unless the gap is ridiculously wide, so much so that nothing external will affect the fight. However its true in what i say, itachi is not only stronger than jiraiya, he will beat him more times than not. Im not getting into a vs section though because i have heard it all and while im an itachi fan and didn't participate in the argument the weight of those arguing for itachi was far too strong and in the end neutrals, people who know the manga well enough gave it to team itachi.

Anyway ill comment on jiraiya's strategy using bunshin feints. Firstly Jiraiya has never fought a genjutsu user, however we have seen his strategy against genjutsu, so its very possible that he would employ this same strategy if he was to face an illusionist as i see no reasons why he would give naruto this strategy yet will not use it himself.

If however we assume, that his tactical level rivals kakashi (which it doesnt because kakashi has been noted to be a very brilliant tactician and manga feats and hype put him on a greater pedestal to jiraiya in this area) to use kage bunshin, he still by no means is near kakashi kage bunshin's usage or ninjutsu execution. Apart from this strategy being devised by one of the best strategist in the series, its effectiveness is down to the fact that kakashi is also one of the best bunshin users in the series, hype and feats.

To say jiraiya will come up with such a strategy, but at the same time will equally be good as kakashi is like saying, jiraiya would employ gai's counter to sharingan and be just as good. In both cases, these strategy developed by these shinobi's (Gai and kakashi) is greatly enhanced by their fighting style. Gai being a taijutsu specialist and kakashi being a bunshin specialist.

In a fight between itachi and jiraiya, the latter would have to be blessed with a ridiculous advantage to stand a 50/50 chance. Some argue he would summon frogs to halt itachi, however what people forget about this strategy is that, itachi could make it backfire and take control of the summonings, something that 3 tomoe sasuke has done to manda and itachi is a far better illusionist and infact has been hyped to be able to take control of people outside the range of sensor's but also we have seen him taking control of opponent's an example is sm kabuto. If jiraiya summons, itachi controls those summons and could very well use these summonings against jiraiya.

But here, lets not turn this into something its not. I have already read the best arguments somewhere else and that is enough for me.

@ Bogard, dunno what manga has portrayed them as equals, if anything your interpretation rather than the manga spelling it out. You pointed out the correlation between hashirama and madara and naruto and sasuke. However there are many things wrong with that. Firstly the manga has put them as rivals who belong in the same generation and to my knowledge manga portrayal has in fact put orochirmaru has jiraiya's rival because they share a much stronger correlation to hashirama/madara and sasuke/naruto than itachi/jiraiya.

Secondly i agree that sm and ms have been pitted as equal, however you make a mistake. In hashirama and naruto's case they are perfect sages (i assume hashirama is). So in fact whilst the manga has has implied that sm and ms are equal, its implication is directed towards its mastery rather than the simple ability gained. To put it simple,

MS mastered = Perfect sage.

^ That is what the manga implies. However you are implying that mastered ms = imperfect sage. And nothing in the manga supports you. For both abilities to be equal, they would have to have gained mastery. Its not inexperienced ms = perfect sage and its not mastered ms = imperfect sage. Rather mastered ms = perfect sage. If either of the two abilities is weaker than the other due to mastery it determines and undermines their parallel.

In short mastered ms > imperfect sage while mastered ms = perfect sage

 

[Metronomy]

Manga already portrayed them as equals but obviously Itachi fanboys refuse to accept it. A Itachi of that period without MS would have been killed really quickly by Jman. Contrary to the popular belief, Jman was the strongest sannin. It's for that reason he was the only one among them to be able to use Sage Mode which is portrayed to be MS equal in this manga(Madara-Hashirama, Naruto-Sasuke, etc)

Theory by Minator93 AKA your alt.

 

[Neon Indian]

Manga already portrayed them as equals but obviously Itachi fanboys refuse to accept it. A Itachi of that period without MS would have been killed really quickly by Jman. Contrary to the popular belief, Jman was the strongest sannin. It's for that reason he was the only one among them to be able to use Sage Mode which is portrayed to be MS equal in this manga(Madara-Hashirama, Naruto-Sasuke, etc)

Oro and Jiraya were eqauls

Itachi is more Minato level.

 

[Horus]

Theory by Minator93 AKA your alt.

Hey, Before you go accusing people of stuff, Have Proof first.
Have some Respect for that Guy, he has been here way longer than you.

 

[Sarutobi Sensei]

I can't believe ,after reading the entire manga people still don't get this

Itachi went to konoha for one reason and one reason only, to warn danzo....
he lied his way out of fighting, and retreated, and EVEN THEN, Kisame still knew something was up..
He knew Itachi could easily beat Jiraya with his abilities and was asking for him to go back

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Yup, you added proof to what I was trying to say.. It's Itachi, he is a genius, I won't be surprised if he ran away as if it is a part of a bigger plan.