[Discussion] Why I don't like Itachi Uchiha

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As far as we know they only met in person once (about the Uchiha massacre). Akatsuki had meetings through holograms.



Sure, but the chances of Sasuke copying the guy he hated, gaining power in a way he despises is very low.



He made him nuanced. He did objectively horrible things for objectively good reasons. People sympathise with him because he was pushed into a corner & chose to protect the greater good while also protecting his brother.



Those are fodder nameless characters. So while knowing the Uchiha's rebellion was justified, naturally people think about Itachi more.
Very good. I forgot about the first scan. His mission was supposed to be secretive but apparently, he wasn't very secretive about it. But we have to realize that Obito was trying to manipulate Sasuke to get him to join the Akatsuki and not everything he says should be taken as a fact.

I'm not sure what you mean by the other scans.

And whether he met Obito once or several times, from Itachi's perception that's Madara Uchiha who nearly destroyed the village before. The idea that he didn't even attempt to kill him and allowed him to gather allies and capture bijjus and grow stronger is weird.


And there's no evidence that Itachi was trying to push Sasuke away from killing his friends. As I've said, the idea didn't even cross Sasuke's mind before Itachi's input. Everything Itachi did only served to corrupt Sasuke further and force him to seek power by any means.

"He made him nuanced. He did objectively horrible things for objectively good reasons. People sympathise with him because he was pushed into a corner & chose to protect the greater good while also protecting his brother."

He neither protected his brother nor the village. Read post number 6.

"Those are fodder nameless characters. So while knowing the Uchiha's rebellion was justified, naturally people think about Itachi more."

Kishimoto is the writer. If he wanted to draw sympathy toward the Uchiha instead of Itachi he would've easily done so. But he deliberately chose to draw sympathy toward the guy who killed his parents instead of the murdered people which morally seems twisted.
 

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Very good. I forgot about the first scan. His mission was supposed to be secretive but apparently, he wasn't very secretive about it. But we have to realize that Obito was trying to manipulate Sasuke to get him to join the Akatsuki and not everything he says should be taken as a fact.
Itachi said Tobi was his accomplice & admitted his help was required.

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I'm not sure what you mean by the other scans.
Should be obvious. Added another page by the way, but you missed it since you were already forming your response.

Itachi was almost blind & near death from a terminal illness. Whereas Kisame had Jinchuriki level chakra in base, the Mist village's strongest sword & could fuse with it to obtain Biju level power. Kisame could very likely kill Itachi & would try if he discovered he was a traitor given his backstory & death (chapters 507, pages 9-13 & c508, p5-12).

And whether he met Obito once or several times, from Itachi's perception that's Madara Uchiha who nearly destroyed the village before. The idea that he didn't even attempt to kill him
He did with the Amaterasu trap & nearly succeeded.

and allowed him to gather allies and capture bijjus and grow stronger is weird.
What could he do? Especially in context with the aforementioned pages.

And there's no evidence that Sasuke was trying to push Sasuke away from killing his friends. As I've said, the idea didn't even cross Sasuke's mind before Itachi's input. Everything Itachi did only served to corrupt Sasuke further and force him to seek power by any means.
It's never addressed directly. I'm just using logic. Itachi told him about MS & EMS in hopes he would obtain them from his death.

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Granted, Tobi was the one who said it, but Itachi proved it's true like the first point. In case Sasuke learned the truth and attacked Konoha, Itachi placed the crow with Shisui's eye in Naruto knowing he would confront Sasuke. The crow would react to EMS casting Shisui's genjutsu to make him protect Konoha.

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Also, Itachi wanted Sasuke to be seen as a hero. Which he wouldn't if he killed his closest friend to obtain Mangekyo.

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He neither protected his brother nor the village. Read post number 6.
>Deidara went to fight him
Jobbed to Itachi from his Sharingan mastery. Also jobbed to Sasuke in part due to his Sharingan mastery.

>Sent him after "Madara"
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>The Akatsuki collected Biju
Which terminally ill, almost blind & near death Itachi could do little to stop.

"Those are fodder nameless characters. So while knowing the Uchiha's rebellion was justified, naturally people think about Itachi more."

Kishimoto is the writer. If he wanted to draw sympathy toward the Uchiha instead of Itachi he would've easily done so. But he deliberately chose to draw sympathy toward the guy who killed his parents instead of the murdered people which morally seems twisted.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. Both sides were valid. Both deserve & get sympathy. Only Danzo is universally vilified. No one has sympathy for him despite wanting to protect Konoha because he deliberately created the circumstances for the rebellion & massacre.

Which reminds me of an earlier piont you made.

I guess the first Hokage had a small brain or was trolling when he called Itachi a greater shinobi than himself, which is the definition of a hero in the Naruto world
Danzo was a true shinobi but wasn't percieved like Itachi.
 
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Itachi said Tobi was his accomplice & admitted his help was required.

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Should be obvious. Added another page by the way, but you missed it since you were already forming your response.

Itachi was almost blind & near death from a terminal illness. Whereas Kisame had Jinchuriki level chakra in base, the Mist village's strongest sword & could fuse with it to obtain Biju level power. Kisame could very likely kill Itachi & would try if he discovered he was a traitor given his backstory & death (chapters 507, pages 9-13 & c508, p5-12).



He did with the Amaterasu trap & nearly succeeded.



What could he do? Especially in context with the aforementioned pages.



It's never addressed directly. I'm just using logic. Itachi told him about MS & EMS in hopes he would obtain them from his death.

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Granted, Tobi was the one who said it, but Itachi proved it's true like the first point. In case Sasuke learned the truth and attacked Konoha, Itachi placed the crow with Shisui's eye in Naruto knowing he would confront Sasuke. The crow would react to EMS casting Shisui's genjutsu to make him protect Konoha.

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Also, Itachi wanted Sasuke to be seen as a hero. Which he wouldn't if he killed his closest friend to obtain Mangekyo.

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>Deidara went to fight him
Jobbed to Itachi from his Sharingan mastery. Also jobbed to Sasuke in part due to his Sharingan mastery.

>Sent him after "Madara"
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>The Akatsuki collected Biju
Which terminally ill, almost blind & near death Itachi could do little to stop.



It doesn't have to be one or the other. Both sides were valid. Both deserve & get sympathy. Only Danzo is universally vilified. No one has sympathy for him despite wanting to protect Konoha because he deliberately created the circumstances for the rebellion & massacre.

Which reminds me of an earlier piont you made.



Danzo was a true shinobi but wasn't percieved like Itachi.
The thing is, I don't see how an Uchiha coup is more dangerous than Madara who nearly wiped out the village before. So I don't understand why Itachi didn't attack him on the spot. I actually think that Obito was using Itachi to get rid of the Uchiha clan. The only clan that can control the bijuus and can pose any meaningful threat to his plans. Instead of allying with Madara, if Itachi informed everyone that he is alive, the Uchiha might have even allied with the elders against that common enemy like the war. Itachi by committing the massacre was serving the greater evil (Obito/Madara) in my opinion.

about the second point I just didn't believe that you think Kisame can defeat Itachi that's why I was confused.
I can't see a scenario where Kisame can break out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi and I don't think Kisame is strong enough to hold his own against an MS user. Bijuus themeselves can't.

The part where Itachi implanted an amaterasu attack in Sasuke to be triggered when "Madara" appears shows that he either overestimated himself or is an idiot to think that one attack from him can kill a legendary Uchiha who survived for 100 years. It was useless. He still sent 15 year old Sasuke against Madara. Why didn't he go himself look for Madara and kill him? Which is my whole point, why didn't Itachi do anything that is actually good? That's why I'm saying that he was a villain because everything he did only lead to things being worse, and everything he did was done in the most horrible and cruel way possible.

Why do you think that when Sasuke saw Itachi as the 'true hokage' and took him as a role model by learning from the way he lived, was one of the closest moments for Sasuke to being a villain?

People also say Itachi abused and tortured Sasuke to protect him, but that's the same excuse that (for example) abusive parents use to defend what they do to their kids.
Also, I don't buy that Itachi told Sasuke to kill his friends for him to do the opposite. To the very end while they were battling Itachi insisted that Sasuke should've got the Mangekyou before coming to the fight and that he can't beat him without it. It was already too late for that talk since the fight was already happening so I think that was honest. Gaara killed many people even from his own village and became the Kazekage so it can happen apparently.

About Deidara, it was thanks to Itachi himself that Deidara gained experience in fighting against Sharingan users and would not fall for the same trick Itachi used on him again and Sasuke was a hair away from getting killed as a result of that. Also, Deidara wasn't alone in the battle. Not to mention, there's also Orochimaru who was grooming Sasuke for years to be his vessel and Itachi did nothing about it.

And I know that Itachi isn't strong enough to handle the Akatsuki, but using plans and stuff he could've slowed if not stopped them from capturing bijuus.

As I've said he didn't even try to protect either the village or Sasuke. He was just there.
 

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The thing is, I don't see how an Uchiha coup is more dangerous than Madara who nearly wiped out the village before. So I don't understand why Itachi didn't attack him on the spot.
His go-to plan was using Kurama, whose sealed in Naruto. If Kurama wasn't required he either wouldn't have used him to begin with or continued to attack after it was sealed.

I actually think that Obito was using Itachi to get rid of the Uchiha clan. The only clan that can control the bijuus and can pose any meaningful threat to his plans.
Interesting point, but every Biju was sealed in a host. A couple of whom had perfect control of it.

Instead of allying with Madara, if Itachi informed everyone that he is alive, the Uchiha might have even allied with the elders against that common enemy like the war. Itachi by committing the massacre was serving the greater evil (Obito/Madara) in my opinion.
The common enemy could have been Konoha.

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And if he only told the elders, they could think he was lying. Trying to undermine them in favor of the Uchiha. A triple agent.

about the second point I just didn't believe that you think Kisame can defeat Itachi that's why I was confused.
I can't see a scenario where Kisame can break out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi and I don't think Kisame is strong enough to hold his own against an MS user. Bijuus themeselves can't.
He can avoid eye contact. Kisame could destroy Sasuke & Shin as well. Obito differs because of Kamui. You're forgetting how strong Kisame is. One swipe of Sameheda took 6 tails from V1 Bee. Which would essentially be all of Itachi's. Logically Susano can be absorbed to.

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The part where Itachi implanted an amaterasu attack in Sasuke to be triggered when "Madara" appears shows that he either overestimated himself or is an idiot to think that one attack from him can kill a legendary Uchiha who survived for 100 years. It was useless.
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Tobi's statement implies with the information Itachi had he would have died & if Itachi knew the information he didn't, he also would have died.

He still sent 15 year old Sasuke against Madara. Why didn't he go himself look for Madara and kill him? Which is my whole point, why didn't Itachi do anything that is actually good? That's why I'm saying that he was a villain because everything he did only lead to things being worse, and everything he did was done in the most horrible and cruel way possible.
*16, Sasuke is a few months older than Naruto.

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If the power difference is so big that an off guard sneak attack is useless, how would confronting him directly be better? Let alone while sick.

You also mention Sasuke's age without seemingly putting thought into Itachi's. He was 13 during the massacre & 21 at death. When should he have attacked? At 17-21? Maybe he was planning to but got sick. He also has to worry about blindness while "Madara" doesn't.

Why do you think that when Sasuke saw Itachi as the 'true hokage' and took him as a role model by learning from the way he lived, was one of the closest moments for Sasuke to being a villain?
As I said earlier, Itachi did objectively horrible things for objectively good reasons. Bearing hatred to maintain peace. Which avoided civil war that could trigger a world war. Sasuke's revolution plan was about using methods that were proven to work.

People also say Itachi abused and tortured Sasuke to protect him, but that's the same excuse that (for example) abusive parents use to defend what they do to their kids.
Also, I don't buy that Itachi told Sasuke to kill his friends for him to do the opposite. To the very end while they were battling Itachi insisted that Sasuke should've got the Mangekyou before coming to the fight and that he can't beat him without it. It was already too late for that talk since the fight was already happening so I think that was honest. Gaara killed many people even from his own village and became the Kazekage so it can happen apparently.
He was acting that way to fool Sasuke into thinking he wanted him to awaken MS so he could take his eyes to obtain EMS. Thereby lead Sasuke to doing that from his death. Which is exactly what happened.

About Deidara, it was thanks to Itachi himself that Deidara gained experience in fighting against Sharingan users and would not fall for the same trick Itachi used on him again and Sasuke was a hair away from getting killed as a result of that.
Itachi didn't know Deidara was an obsessed mad man who would invent a new way to counter Sharingan Genjutsu. That not even the decades older Chiyo let alone many other shinobi, have come up with (or at least survived to pass the intel to others).

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Also, Deidara wasn't alone in the battle.
Itachi knew Tobi planned to use Sasuke so he wouldn't allow him to die.

Not to mention, there's also Orochimaru who was grooming Sasuke for years to be his vessel and Itachi did nothing about it.
Orochimaru avoided capture for over a decade even with fellow Sanin Jiraiya tailing him.

And I know that Itachi isn't strong enough to handle the Akatsuki, but using plans and stuff he could've slowed if not stopped them from capturing bijuus.
How? & the moment Tobi learns Itachi is trying to undermine Akatsuki he could mobilize them to kill him. Notice how he partnered Itachi with not only his most loyal ally, but one he knows will kill traitors & could kill Itachi. Kisame was essentially a watch dog. He even disciplined him the moment they met.

As I've said he didn't even try to protect either the village or Sasuke. He was just there.
He kept Akatsuki away from Konoha, returned after Hurizen's death to remind the elders to stay away from Sasuke while also informing Kakashi, Kurenai, & Asuma of the Akatsuki's existence & goal (partially at least).
 
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His go-to plan was using Kurama, whose sealed in Naruto. If Kurama wasn't required he either wouldn't have used him to begin with or continued to attack after it was sealed.



Interesting point, but every Biju was sealed in a host. A couple of whom had perfect control of it.



The common enemy could have been Konoha.

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And if he only told the elders, they could think he was lying. Trying to undermine them in favor of the Uchiha. A triple agent.



He can avoid eye contact. Kisame could destroy Sasuke & Shin as well. Obito differs because of Kamui. You're forgetting how strong Kisame is. One swipe of Sameheda took 6 tails from V1 Bee. Which would essentially be all of Itachi's. Logically Susano can be absorbed to.

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Tobi's statement implies with the information Itachi had he would have died & if Itachi knew the information he didn't, he also would have died.



*16, Sasuke is a few months older than Naruto.

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If the power difference is so big that an off guard sneak attack is useless, how would confronting him directly be better? Let alone while sick.

You also mention Sasuke's age without seemingly putting thought into Itachi's. He was 13 during the massacre & 21 at death. When should he have attacked? At 17-21? Maybe he was planning to but got sick. He also has to worry about blindness while "Madara" doesn't.



As I said earlier, Itachi did objectively horrible things for objectively good reasons. Bearing hatred to maintain peace. This method worked. Avoiding civil war that could trigger a world war. Sasuke's revolution plan utilized methods that had proven to work.



He was acting that way to fool Sasuke into thinking he wanted him to awaken MS so he could take his eyes to obtain EMS. Thereby lead Sasuke to doing that from his death. Which is exactly what happened.



Itachi didn't know Deidara was an obsessed mad man who would invent a new way to counter Sharingan Genjutsu.



Itachi knew Tobi planned to use Sasuke so he wouldn't allow him to die.



Orochimaru avoided capture for over a decade even with fellow Sabin Jiraiya tailing him.



How? & the moment Tobi sees Itachi try to undermine Akatsuki he could mobilize them to kill him. Notice how he partnered Itachi with not only his most loyal ally, but one he knows will kill traitors & could kill Itachi. Kisame was essentially a watch dog. He even disciplined him the moment they met.



He kept Akatsuki away from Konoha, returned after Hurizen's death to remind the elder's to stay away from Sasuke while also informing Kakashi, Kurenai, & Asuma of the Akatsuki's existence & goal (partially at least).
The bijuus can be extracted out of its hosts. And Obito and his Infinite Tsukuyomi definitely benefited from the Uchiha clan's demise. they're the police force, the strongest clan in the village, and the only clan that can control the bijuus. Their death gave Obito an advantage who is a worse threat than a regular ninja war or a coup. Pretty sure that Sarutobi and maybe Fugaku would have believed Itachi. And I don't think Fugaku or the clan would have sided with Madara. The Uchiha clan wasn't actually trying to destroy the village, they were planning to do things peacefully.

And no. Kisame can't beat Sasuke. Sasuke was taken to the Akatsuki by Obito as replacement for Nagato. He wasn't a regular member like Deidara, Kisame, Sasori, etc. he was the strongest member the Akatsuki has.
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I also don't think the susano'o can be absorbed like a bijuu cloak or Isshiki would have absorbed it while fighting Naruto and Sasuke. Bijuus full form also can't be absorbed, unlike bijuu cloaks. And Shin was not an actual Uchiha nor was that a real MS.
Kisame just has an advantage over some of the forms of the bijuus but he could potentially be beaten by someone like Might Guy. He is no match for MS users.

As I said earlier, Itachi did objectively horrible things for objectively good reasons. Bearing hatred to maintain peace. This method worked. Avoiding civil war that could trigger a world war. Sasuke's revolution plan utilized methods that had proven to work.
It didn't work. Itachi himself admitted that he's a failure. That's why he was a changed person as an Edo. And I'm here trying to prove that he wasn't just a failure, he was actually a criminal and an actual villain despite his intentions. Just like Danzo, Madara, Obito, Nagato, etc. Who all thought they were doing the right thing.

He was acting that way to fool Sasuke into thinking he wanted him to awaken MS so he could take his eyes to obtain EMS. Thereby lead Sasuke to doing that from his death. Which is exactly what happened.
The problem is that you're ignoring that Sasuke attempted to kill Naruto multiple times, and it was Itachi's influence that made him do so.
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I actually think that when Sasuke chose not to kill Naruto was partially due to him remembering Fugaku telling him to walk his own path and not to follow Itachi's footsteps.

Itachi didn't know Deidara was an obsessed mad man who would invent a new way to counter Sharingan Genjutsu. Itachi knew Tobi planned to use Sasuke so he wouldn't allow him to die.
Even though I don't like Itachi I still think he is smart enough to realize that Deidara wouldn't fall for the same trick twice. Obito's only interest in Sasuke is his power. He didn't and wouldn't stop Deidara from killing him. If Sasuke can't even beat Deidara, then there's no need for him.

Orochimaru avoided capture for over a decade even with fellow Sabin Jiraiya tailing him.
Naruto and the rest found him in no time. Pretty sure Itachi would've also found him if he actually tried.

How? & the moment Tobi sees Itachi try to undermine Akatsuki he could mobilize them to kill him. Notice how he partnered Itachi with not only his most loyal ally, but one he knows will kill traitors & could kill Itachi. Kisame was essentially a watch dog. He even disciplined him the moment they met.
Leak info on the Akatsuki, warn villages about Akatsuki's attacks using Shadow Clones, try to take down some of them using stealth, etc. Instead, he chose to do nothing and allow the Akatsuki to do as they please, which is a crime in itself.

He kept Akatsuki away from Konoha, returned after Hurizen's death to remind the elder's to stay away from Sasuke while also informing Kakashi, Kurenai, & Asuma of the Akatsuki's existence & goal (partially at least).
The Akatsuki had no interest in attacking the village itself anyway, they were only going to do so when they capture all the beasts. And they were capturing them in order one by one with no interruptions from Itachi as I mentioned before.
Danzo's fodder Anbus were not that much of a threat and Danzo almost never acts personally. And protecting Sasuke by damaging Sasuke himself instead of the people who threaten him is not real protection.

Anyway we can just agree to disagree at this point because I feel like I'm repeating myself and this discussion is going nowhere.
 

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It just came to my mind now that Itachi actually stalled Naruto, Kakashi, Sakura, and Chiyo and prevented them from saving Gaara, borrowing the Akatsuki enough time to extract the Shukaku from the Kazekage and kill him. Such a hero and a true shinobi he was!
 

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The bijuus can be extracted out of its hosts.
If "Madara" had the means to do that he would have kidnapped Kushina or Naruto. He didn't gain the man power til a decade later. Naruto had already been left alone for several years. Whereas the Uchiha's rebellion was an immediate threat.

And Obito and his Infinite Tsukuyomi definitely benefited from the Uchiha clan's demise. they're the police force, the strongest clan in the village, and the only clan that can control the bijuus. Their death gave Obito an advantage who is a worse threat than a regular ninja war or a coup.
Good point.

Pretty sure that Sarutobi and maybe Fugaku would have believed Itachi. And I don't think Fugaku or the clan would have sided with Madara.
The fact that they planned to rebel shows they most likely would & with his power they'd probably succeed.

The Uchiha clan wasn't actually trying to destroy the village, they were planning to do things peacefully.
Madara only planned to destroy Konoha cause Uchiha turned their backs on him in favor of the village when he suggested they take over.

And no. Kisame can't beat Sasuke. Sasuke was taken to the Akatsuki by Obito as replacement for Nagato. He wasn't a regular member like Deidara, Kisame, Sasori, etc. he was the strongest member the Akatsuki has.
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The databook page wasn't stating he's stronger than every member. Their power level varies. Sasuke was at the very least stronger than entry level. He had the greatest potential, but he wasn't stronger than Nagato & Kisame at the time.

I also don't think the susano'o can be absorbed like a bijuu cloak or Isshiki would have absorbed it while fighting Naruto and Sasuke. Bijuus full form also can't be absorbed, unlike bijuu cloaks.
It should since it's made of chakra.

And Shin was not an actual Uchiha nor was that a real MS.
So did he have a real Sharingan? Either way it worked just like one.

Kisame just has an advantage over some of the forms of the bijuus but he could potentially be beaten by someone like Might Guy. He is no match for MS users.
Guy has a different skill set. He's also a good counter for Sharingan users since he trained to avoid eye contact.

It didn't work. Itachi himself admitted that he's a failure. That's why he was a changed person as an Edo. And I'm here trying to prove that he wasn't just a failure, he was actually a criminal and an actual villain despite his intentions. Just like Danzo, Madara, Obito, Nagato, etc. Who all thought they were doing the right thing.
It clearly did given the rebellion & war was avoided.

The problem is that you're ignoring that Sasuke attempted to kill Naruto multiple times, and it was Itachi's influence that made him do so.
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I actually think that when Sasuke chose not to kill Naruto was partially due to him remembering Fugaku telling him to walk his own path and not to follow Itachi's footsteps.
After leaving the village from being persuaded by Orochimaru. Itachi didn't factor him.

Even though I don't like Itachi I still think he is smart enough to realize that Deidara wouldn't fall for the same trick twice.
You have no proof. Nothing suggest Itachi should have known Deidara would do what countless shinobi failed to do before him.

Obito's only interest in Sasuke is his power. He didn't and wouldn't stop Deidara from killing him. If Sasuke can't even beat Deidara, then there's no need for him.
He saved Sasuke from Onoki and stepped in against Team 7. He wanted Sasuke's power to grow & he needed him alive so Itachi would die fighting him.

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Naruto and the rest found him in no time. Pretty sure Itachi would've also found him if he actually tried.
They only met because Sasori gave them his meeting location with Kabuto. Orochimaru appeared & Sai went with them. Yamato then tracked Sai who he planted seeds on.

Leak info on the Akatsuki, warn villages about Akatsuki's attacks using Shadow Clones, try to take down some of them using stealth, etc. Instead, he chose to do nothing and allow the Akatsuki to do as they please, which is a crime in itself.
Then be killed when he tries.

The Akatsuki had no interest in attacking the village itself anyway, they were only going to do so when they capture all the beasts. And they were capturing them in order one by one with no interruptions from Itachi as I mentioned before.
"Madara" got Kurama before obtaining any other Biju.

Danzo's fodder Anbus were not that much of a threat and Danzo almost never acts personally. And protecting Sasuke by damaging Sasuke himself instead of the people who threaten him is not real protection.
Nonesense. The Anbu could have killed Sasuke if ordered.

Anyway we can just agree to disagree at this point because I feel like I'm repeating myself and this discussion is going nowhere.
Keep going. This conversation made me like Itachi & Kisame more than I have ever (been a fan of the series for 18 years). Itachi became my second favorite character.

It just came to my mind now that Itachi actually stalled Naruto, Kakashi, Sakura, and Chiyo and prevented them from saving Gaara, borrowing the Akatsuki enough time to extract the Shukaku from the Kazekage and kill him. Such a hero and a true shinobi he was!
While not killing them and capturing Naruto as he surely could have. Following orders in the mutually beneficial relationship (with Tobi) while protecting them. Reminds me of before.

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If "Madara" had the means to do that he would have kidnapped Kushina or Naruto. He didn't gain the man power til a decade later. Naruto had already been left alone for several years. Whereas the Uchiha's rebellion was an immediate threat.



Good point.



The fact that they planned to rebel shows they most likely would & with his power they'd probably succeed.



Madara only planned to destroy Konoha cause Uchiha turned their backs on him in favor of the village when he suggested they take over.



The databook page wasn't stating he's stronger than every member. Their power level varies. Sasuke was at the very least stronger than entry level. He had the greatest potential, but he wasn't stronger than Nagato & Kisame at the time.



It should since it's made of chakra.



So did he have a real Sharingan? Either way it worked just like one.



Guy has a different skill set. He's also a good counter for Sharingan users since he trained to avoid eye contact.



It clearly did given the rebellion & war was avoided.



After leaving the village from being persuaded by Orochimaru. Itachi didn't factor him.



You have no proof. Nothing suggest Itachi should have known Deidara would do what countless shinobi failed to do before him.



He saved Sasuke from Onoki and stepped in against Team 7. He wanted Sasuke's power to grow & he needed him alive so Itachi would die fighting him.

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They only met because Sasori gave them his meeting location with Kabuto. Orochimaru appeared & Sai went with them. Yamato then tracked Sai who he planted seeds on.



Then be killed when he tries.



"Madara" got Kurama before obtaining any of the other Biju.



Nonesense. The Anbu could have killed Sasuke if ordered.



Keep going. This conversation made me like Itachi & Kisame more than I have ever (been a fan of the series for 18 years). Itachi became my second favorite character.



While not killing them and capturing Naruto as he surely could have. Following orders in the mutually beneficial relationship (with Tobi) while protecting them. Reminds me of before.

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I don't have anything else to add regarding Itachi.

But about Sasuke vs Kisame, I think you overrate Kisame and underrate Sasuke. There are multiple ways for Sasuke to one-shot Kisame.
Kirin (cannot be absorbed, it's not made out of chakra)
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Genjutsu (Deidara was aware of Genjutsu and was still beaten by it)
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- Amaterasu (Samehade was damaged from regular fire)
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- Susano'o (no proof Susano'o can be absorbed)
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Additionally, Sasuke is also faster, more skilled, and more versatile than Kisame.
And let's not forget that Killer Bee was holding back against Kisame so that he doesn't harm his friends. He was going all out against a weakened Sasuke who was using an underdeveloped MS and was defeated.
Whether Sasuke is stronger than Nagato or not is debatable to me. Kirin would probably destroy CT, and Sasuke can probably speed-blitz most of the paths. Shinra Tensei can block most of the attacks but it won't be able to do it forever. No path is immune to genjutsu. I think Nagato would give Sasuke a better fight than Kisame and Deidara but Sasuke would still win lol.

And Shin was a fake Uchiha and the owner of the weakest and fakest Mangekyou ever. And believe it or not, I actually think it's debatable between him and Kisame. Shin held his own against adult Sakura who is stronger than Tsunade and would also destroy Kisame.

We can debate more on these topics if you want but I'm done with Itachi.
 
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Naruto X Hunter

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I don't have anything else to add regarding Itachi.
Sounds like you want to hate Itachi. Should be glad that you're wrong. That way you can enjoy the series more.

But about Sasuke vs Kisame, I think you overrate Kisame and underrate Sasuke. There are multiple ways for Sasuke to one-shot Kisame.
Kirin (cannot be absorbed, it's not made out of chakra)
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Genjutsu (Deidara was aware of Genjutsu and was still beaten by it)
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- Amaterasu (Samehade was damaged from regular fire)
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>Can one-shot
With Kirin & Amaterasu. Sameheda would stop genjutsu. Kirin would probably only work if he set up & launched it ahead of time. For example, if he didn't want to ask Itachi who his accomplice was he didn't have to get near let alone enter the building. Kirin one-shots from miles away. If he randomly encounters Kisame he probably wouldn't have time to use it.

- Susano'o (no proof Susano'o can be absorbed)
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There's no proof it can't, but logic implies it can.

Additionally, Sasuke is also faster, more skilled, and more versatile than Kisame.
Lightning is also super effective against water, but Sameheda absorbed Bee's before it even reached Kisame.

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And let's not forget that Killer Bee was holding back against Kisame so that he doesn't harm his friends. He was going all out against a weakened Sasuke who was using an underdeveloped MS and was defeated.
Kisame also held back & dominated. Bee only survived due to Sameheda's betrayal.

Whether Sasuke is stronger than Nagato or not is debatable to me.
You remind me of Itachi fanboys back in the day who called him the solo king & even say he would beat Madara.

Kirin would probably destroy CT,
Wouldn't have the chance to use.

and Sasuke can probably speed-blitz most of the paths.
As if he would do that not knowing their abilities

Shinra Tensei can block most of the attacks but it won't be able to do it forever.
Only needed a break after using it to destroy Konoha. Sasuke wouldn't outlast him.

No path is immune to genjutsu.
Even if he could get them all in genjutsu at once like the Biju, we don't know if Nagato would begin the battle with them all out. He probably kept them in reserve for big task. He only confronted Jiraiya with one despite knowing his reputation.
 
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Sounds like you want to hate Itachi. Should be glad that you're wrong. That way you can enjoy the series more.
I'm not wrong about Itachi lol. The guy himself basically confessed that everything he did was wrong (actual crimes). You're the one who is making excuses for him. I'm done with this topic because I've said all I have about him and don't want to keep repeating myself.

>Can one-shot
With Kirin & Amaterasu. Sameheda would stop genjutsu. Kirin would probably only work if he set up & launched it ahead of time. For example, if he didn't want to ask Itachi who his accomplice was he didn't have to get near let alone enter the building. Kirin one-shots from miles away. If he randomly encounters Kisame he probably wouldn't have time to use it.
In the meantime, while Samehade wakes Kisame up Sasuke would have already slit Kisame's throat.
You're ignoring everything Sasuke has at his disposal in favor of Kisame that's your problem. That's why you were initially talking about this hypothetical battle as if it's one-sided in favor of Kisame when it's actually one-sided in favor of Sasuke.
Sasuke uses fire jutsu to prepare Kirin, which itself creates distraction and makes an opening for Sasuke to be prepared. In addition to Sasuke being faster than Kisame. He will have the time to be prepared.

There's no proof it can't, but logic implies it can.
Sasuke fought many characters who have absorption abilities and none of them absorbed Susano'o. So, no. It can't be absorbed. Most likely because it's too solid.

Lightning is also super effective against water, but Sameheda absorbed Bee's before it even reached Kisame.

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Bee is not as good as Sasuke at using lightning. Samehada won't be able to block everything if Kisame is being attacked from all directions. Chidori Nagashi for example would be a problem
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Kisame also held back & dominated. Bee only survived due to Sameheda's betrayal.
We can't say Kisame was holding back unless we know there's something he could have done but didn't. For example, we know that Sasuke was holding back against Deidara because he restricted himself from using Kirin because he didn't want to kill him. But can you tell me what could have Kisame done differently? On the other hand, we know the battle could have gone differently if Killer Bee was allowed to use full 8-tails.

You remind me of Itachi fanboys back in the day who called him the solo king & even say he would beat Madara.
And you too remind me of the Naruto fanboys who don't know where Sasuke stands in the hierarchy and don't understand the context of his battles and blindly underrate him and think he is Jonin level or something.
How am I a fanboy for comparing Sasuke with Nagato when Sasuke is literally Nagato's equivalent in the Akatsuki?

Wouldn't have the chance to use.
It's faster and easier to use than Chibaku Tensei

As if he would do that not knowing their abilities
That's the thing, I think 3t Sasuke can win against Pain if he is fighting under the same conditions as SM Naruto and have intel on the paths and the deva being weakened. Kirin could potentially one-shot all of them. A healthy full powered MS Sasuke would win without prior knowledge and no restrictions on the Deva path

Only needed a break after using it to destroy Konoha. Sasuke wouldn't outlast him.
A break that was enough for Naruto to almost destroy all the other paths. It's not a lethal jutsu, and it has a cooldown of 5 seconds which is more than enough for Sasuke to slide his attacks.

Even if he could get them all in genjutsu at once like the Biju, we don't know if Nagato would begin the battle with them all out. He probably kept them in reserve for big task. He only confronted Jiraiya with one despite knowing his reputation.
The really problematic paths (namely the deva and preta paths) would be taken down with a genjutsu, the rest would straight up be destroyed because they're outmatched in all stats
 
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I'm not wrong about Itachi lol. The guy himself basically confessed that everything he did was wrong (actual crimes). You're the one who is making excuses for him. I'm done with this topic because I've said all I have about him and don't want to keep repeating myself.
I've said multiple times that he did objectively bad things for objectively good reasons. Your thoroughly debunked complaints was how he went about it. Claiming he should have done other things

One of my favorite moments was when you complained that he sent "15 year old" Sasuke to "Madara." Hyping Madara as a super powerful omega villian mastermind that Itachi should have known an offguard sneak attack would be useless against (even though it scared "Madara" who admitted he would be dead if Itachi had more intel). Claiming 13-21 year old terminally ill & near blind Itachi should have confronted an on guard "Madara" in person. As if that's better.

When this inconsistent, ridiculous & hypocritical logic was exposed you chose to ignore it. Focusing on other points which you also ended up running away from.

Itachi said he was wrong for trying to handle things alone. Not that he could have done things alone better. Which is what you were arguing for the most part. Aside from saying he should have told the Uchiha about Madara. As if the Uchiha, who now realize Madara was right, would oppose him instead of ally with him against Konoha.

In the meantime, while Samehade wakes Kisame up Sasuke would have already slit Kisame's throat.
You're ignoring everything Sasuke has at his disposal in favor of Kisame that's your problem. That's why you were initially talking about this hypothetical battle as if it's one-sided in favor of Kisame when it's actually one-sided in favor of Sasuke.
Sameheda immediately healed Kisame after he was hit by lariat. Sasuke would end up like Bee in the page above. Move in to strike Kisame only to end up being head butted with his chakra absorbed. Or he would fuse with Sameheda to begin with so he doesn't have to rely on vision.

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And to prevent close ground combat Kisame formed a large water dome.

Sasuke uses fire jutsu to prepare Kirin, which itself creates distraction and makes an opening for Sasuke to be prepared. In addition to Sasuke being faster than Kisame. He will have the time to be prepared.
Creating rain against a water style master isn't a smart idea.

Sasuke fought many characters who have absorption abilities and none of them absorbed Susano'o. So, no. It can't be absorbed. Most likely because it's too solid.
Preta Path was said to absorb all ninjutsu.

Bee is not as good as Sasuke at using lightning. Samehada won't be able to block everything if Kisame is being attacked from all directions. Chidori Nagashi for example would be a problem
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Fusion eliminates that problem.

We can't say Kisame was holding back unless we know there's something he could have done but didn't. For example, we know that Sasuke was holding back against Deidara because he restricted himself from using Kirin because he didn't want to kill him. But can you tell me what could have Kisame done differently? On the other hand, we know the battle could have gone differently if Killer Bee was allowed to use full 8-tails.
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I haven't read these chapters in years. When I did I never put much thought into it & I don't want to skim through it too much cause it will spoil my upcoming reread. This is a light debate. Just countering points I can immediately see are likely wrong.

By the way, Sasuke could have killed Deidara on the first speed blitz if he aimed for him instead of Tobi. Both admitted he was too fast. That's why Deidara went airborne and had Tobi implant the mines to slow him down. When Sasuke reached him in the air he said he avoided a vital spot & asked about Itachi again (granted that was a clone but it still shows he wanted him alive to get intel). Later he punched Deidara instead of striking him with Chidori or a weapon. So even if he was going for the kill he wouldn't use nor need Kirin.

And you too remind me of the Naruto fanboys who don't know where Sasuke stands in the hierarchy and don't understand the context of his battles and blindly underrate him and think he is Jonin level or something.
You don't know my history. One of my favorite topics is how he's 5-0 against his inferior rival with 6-0 sure to come in the promised rematch (you're probably unaware that he's 4-0, let alone 5-0. Granted, even I discovered the latter recently). Another is the Kirin point I mentioned earlier to show that he could even one-shot a healthy Itachi.

It's baffling how much Sasuke is superior to Naruto. Better abilities, battles, character development, win-loss record, clan, wife, daughter, student. More talent, works harder, more intelligence, better looking. Was almost always stronger, 5 wins & 0 losses against him, got the girl Naruto liked. Who he even has a spin-off manga with. Where Naruto is jobbing to an illness that Sasuke & Sakura save him from while Hinata is useless. And at the same time those chapters were coming out, in Boruto, Naruto & Hinata job to Kawaki who runs away from Sasuke. While Sasuke has a healthy relationship with his student who he's sure to train better than Jiraiya did Naruto.

He even had a better reason to become Hokage despite that being Naruto's goal from day one (Naruto wanted everyone's recognition. Sasuke to protect from the shadows like a true shinobi to ensure things like clan massacres and war don't happen again).

How am I a fanboy for comparing Sasuke with Nagato when Sasuke is literally Nagato's equivalent in the Akatsuki?
My point wasn't that you're a fanboy (you should be). Just that you're being irrational like some I've seen in the past. Nagato was obviously stronger.

It's faster and easier to use than Chibaku Tensei
It's only faster when it's being used. Not the prep & clearly not easier. All Nagato has to do is form an orb and throw it to the air. About the same time it takes Sasuke to launch fire.

That's the thing, I think 3t Sasuke can win against Pain if he is fighting under the same conditions as SM Naruto and have intel on the paths and the deva being weakened. Kirin could potentially one-shot all of them. A healthy full powered MS Sasuke would win without prior knowledge and no restrictions on the Deva path
The wind from Danzo's summoning pressed Sasuke. With Danzo creating an opening in the back of Susano. The Shinra Tensei that destroyed Konoha would one-shot.

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It took him a few minutes to deduce Izanagi yet you think he can figure out all Pain's abilities & Deva Path's weakness within the same time while potentially fighting all paths including summonings? πŸ˜†

A break that was enough for Naruto to almost destroy all the other paths. It's not a lethal jutsu, and it has a cooldown of 5 seconds which is more than enough for Sasuke to slide his attacks.
Naruto had intel, prep, help from several toads, Hinata, Kurama, and Minato.

The really problematic paths (namely the deva and preta paths) would be taken down with a genjutsu, the rest would straight up be destroyed because they're outmatched in all stats
Jiraiya and the elder toads used genjutsu to take down 3 who were quickly healed.
 
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I've said multiple times that he did objectively bad things for objectively good reasons. Your thoroughly debunked complaints was how he went about it. Claiming he should have done other things



One of my favorite moments was when you complained that he sent "15 year old" Sasuke to "Madara." Hyping Madara as a super powerful omega villian mastermind that Itachi should have known an offguard sneak attack would be useless against (even though it scared "Madara" who admitted he would be dead if Itachi had more intel). Claiming 13-21 year old terminally ill & near blind Itachi should have confronted an on guard "Madara" in person. As if that's better.

When this inconsistent, ridiculous & hypocritical logic was exposed you chose to ignore it. Focusing on other points which you also ended up running away from.

Itachi said he was wrong for trying to handle things alone. Not that he could have done things alone better. Which is what you were arguing for the most part. Aside from saying he should have told the Uchiha about Madara. As if the Uchiha, who now realize Madara was right, would oppose him instead of ally with him against Konoha.
The logic of an idiot: Losing interest in this topic and not wanting to keep repeating myself = running away


Sameheda immediately healed Kisame after he was hit by lariat. Sasuke would end up like Bee in the page above. Move in to strike Kisame only to end up being head butted with his chakra absorbed. Or he would fuse with Sameheda to begin with so he doesn't have to rely on vision.

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And to prevent close ground combat Kisame formed a large water dome.
Sasuke can put his victims under genjutsu without them or the people around them being aware of it. Like against Danzo who was placed under a genjutsu and neither he nor Karin (who could sense chakra) were aware of it.

The idea that Samehada would even realize that Kisame is under genjutsu and would wake him up is your own assumption that's not based on evidence. When Killer Bee was caught in a genjutsu by Itachi, 8-tails woke him up. Samehada did nothing. Additionally for Kisame to be put under genjutsu, wait for Samehada to wake him up (assuming that Samehada would or even could do that), and then react to Sasuke who is in the process of blitzing him, he'd have to be a lot faster than Sasuke.



Creating rain against a water style master isn't a smart idea.
How's the rain going to help him? lol

You were initially trying to argue that Kisame would "destroy" MS Sasuke, when he is actually outmatched by 3t Sasuke. This in itself a proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. And definitely have no idea how massive of a boost the MS is. It is leagues above Kage level.

Preta Path was said to absorb all ninjutsu.
Clearly not true. It has its limitations.

Fusion eliminates that problem.
Assuming he would start the battle with fusion.



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This scan means nothing except that Kisame used Killer Bee's friends to his advantage. Killer Bee would have destroyed him with full 8-tails.

By the way, Sasuke could have killed Deidara on the first speed blitz if he aimed for him instead of Tobi. Both admitted he was too fast. That's why Deidara went airborne and had Tobi implant the mines to slow him down. When Sasuke reached him in the air he said he avoided a vital spot & asked about Itachi again (granted that was a clone but it still shows he wanted him alive to get intel). Later he punched Deidara instead of striking him with Chidori or a weapon. So even if he was going for the kill he wouldn't use nor need Kirin.
I know that.

You don't know my history. One of my favorite topics is how he's 5-0 against his inferior rival with 6-0 sure to come in the promised rematch (you're probably unaware that he's 4-0, let alone 5-0. Granted, even I discovered the latter recently).
ok.

Another is the Kirin point I mentioned earlier to show that he could even one-shot a healthy Itachi.
Wouldn't have been fair but ok

It's baffling how much Sasuke is superior to Naruto. Better abilities, battles, character development, win-loss record, clan, wife, daughter, student. More talent, works harder, more intelligence, better looking. Was almost always stronger, 5 wins & 0 losses against him, got the girl Naruto liked. Who he even has a spin-off manga with. Where Naruto is jobbing to an illness that Sasuke & Sakura save him from while Hinata is useless. And at the same time those chapters were coming out, in Boruto, Naruto & Hinata job to Kawaki who runs away from Sasuke. While Sasuke has a healthy relationship with his student who he's sure to train better than Jiraiya did Naruto.

He even had a better reason to become Hokage despite that being Naruto's goal from day one (Naruto wanted everyone's recognition. Sasuke to protect from the shadows like a true shinobi to ensure things like clan massacres and war don't happen again).
My point here is not whether you think Sasuke is stronger than Naruto or not. My point is whether you know where Sasuke stands in the hierarchy or not. You clearly don't.

My point wasn't that you're a fanboy (you should be). Just that you're being irrational like some I've seen in the past. Nagato was obviously stronger.
Let's make further comparisons between Sasuke and Nagato.

SM Naruto which Nagato fought:
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SM Naruto's strongest attack was stated to be ineffective against Sasuke's Susano'o
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Kyuubi's rampage which Nagato struggled against:
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Would have been effortlessly suppressed from the inside by Sasuke
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8-tails which probably would have destroyed Nagato
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Would have been one-shotted by Sasuke
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Nagato destroyed the village
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MS Sasuke stated that he could that

Sasuke joined the Akatsuki before he unlocked MS's power because he thought he required the Bijuu's power to destroy the village. He changed his plans and abandoned them after he got MS because the MS was enough for him to do it by himself.
Madara was holding the five Kages with his half Susano'o, and Madara's MS and Susano'o are inferior to Sasuke because he doesn't have the Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi combo which can one-shot anyone upon touch. So what exactly do you think Nagato got over Sasuke?

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It's only faster when it's being used. Not the prep & clearly not easier. All Nagato has to do is form an orb and throw it to the air. About the same time it takes Sasuke to launch fire.
I mean Nagato nearly died making that Chibaku Tensei. Kirin is much easier to use in comparison. The preparation for Kirin itself is probably faster than CT, the jutsu itself is also faster and much easier to use as it doesn't take that much chakra.

Very very easy
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Very very hard
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The wind from Danzo's summoning pressed Sasuke. With Danzo creating an opening in the back of Susano. The Shinra Tensei that destroyed Konoha would one-shot.

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The fact that Danzo was able to do that means the attack potency of his wind style is very high. Remember that the Raikage's strongest attacks basically caused no meaningful damage to Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o (the weakest form of Susano'o).

There's no proof that Nagato's shinra tensei has an attack potency even close to Danzo's wind style.
Scale β‰  potency like here:

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It took him a few minutes to deduce Izanagi yet you think he can figure out all Pain's abilities & Deva Path's weakness within the same time while potentially fighting all paths including summonings? πŸ˜†
Yes, he can. One of the smartest characters in the Naruto universe + the Sharingan can give information about every ability. And we don't know when did Sasuke actually figure Izanagi out. We only know when Karin did.

Naruto had intel, prep, help from several toads, Hinata, Kurama, and Minato.
As I've said before, if 3t Sasuke is fighting with intel and the deva path restricted like against Naruto he would win. He has the sharingan + multiple summonings + hax + Kirin.

MS Sasuke would win in a random encounter with no intel and restrictions.

Jiraiya and the elder toads used genjutsu to take down 3 who were quickly healed.
Danzo's ability was much better than that.
He just has to not give them the chance to heal. If they healed once, he won't give them the chance the next time.
 
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The logic of an idiot: Losing interest in this topic and not wanting to keep repeating myself = running away
Began to skip points because you couldn't form a counter and didn't want to admit you're wrong. While addressing things you thought you had a chance on. Then ultimately dropped those as well. Losing interest came hand in hand with losing the debate.

Sasuke can put his victims under genjutsu without them or the people around them being aware of it. Like against Danzo who was placed under a genjutsu and neither he nor Karin (who could sense chakra) were aware of it.

The idea that Samehada would even realize that Kisame is under genjutsu and would wake him up is your own assumption that's not based on evidence. When Killer Bee was caught in a genjutsu by Itachi, 8-tails woke him up. Samehada did nothing. Additionally for Kisame to be put under genjutsu, wait for Samehada to wake him up (assuming that Samehada would or even could do that), and then react to Sasuke who is in the process of blitzing him, he'd have to be a lot faster than Sasuke.
Good points.

How's the rain going to help him? lol
Provides water for his jutsu.

You were initially trying to argue that Kisame would "destroy" MS Sasuke, when he is actually outmatched by 3t Sasuke. This in itself a proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. And definitely have no idea how massive of a boost the MS is. It is leagues above Kage level.
I know he's above them. Clearly shown with one of his most underrated feats. Despite being weakened from the Raikage and a sensor stating he arrived, no one even saw him enter the room. Let alone reach the ceiling & cut the flags. It took another sensor stating his location for them to finally notice. As he stood there watching Danzo. He could have sliced their heads off instead of the flags.

Raikage was stated to be on par with Minato whose the fastest shinobi in history. Yet Sasuke easily evaded him while having Chidori activated for a pinpointed attack & Raikage timed his movements with Amaterasu's activation to evade. If Sasuke placed him in a subtle genjutsu like Danzo his timing would be off.

Clearly not true. It has its limitations.
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Assuming he would start the battle with fusion.
Knowing he's fighting an Uchiha he probably would and Sasuke rarely begins with genjutsu.

This scan means nothing except that Kisame used Killer Bee's friends to his advantage. Killer Bee would have destroyed him with full 8-tails.
It shows he was fully aware Bee needed to be captured alive and acted upon it. In that scene he was using allies against him, but the entire battle he was shaving off Bee's chakra to weaken him for capture.

I know that.
Then don't hype Kirin so much.

I bet you thought he was 3-0.

Wouldn't have been fair but ok
This isn't a sports match. There are no rules. Doesn't matter if Itachi was on the toilet.

My point here is not whether you think Sasuke is stronger than Naruto or not. My point is whether you know where Sasuke stands in the hierarchy or not. You clearly don't.
Then what is it.

Let's make further comparisons between Sasuke and Nagato.

SM Naruto which Nagato fought:
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SM Naruto's strongest attack was stated to be ineffective against Sasuke's Susano'o
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😳😳😳😳😳😳 I've never seen anyone mention this. Naruto stating he needed Kurama already made it definitive that MS Sasuke is stronger but this is even more proof.

Kyuubi's rampage which Nagato struggled against:
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Would have been effortlessly suppressed from the inside by Sasuke
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πŸ˜€ I'm gonna start using your points when hyping Sasuke in general. Like on Naruto vs Pain videos I'll say, "It's amusing to see the Akatsuki leader with the Sage of Six Paths eye abilities struggle with a problem Sasuke could easily prevent."

Nonetheless, stopping Kurama has no barring on how he would fare against Nagato given the ability is useless against him.

8-tails which probably would have destroyed Nagato
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Would have been one-shotted by Sasuke
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πŸ‘

Nagato destroyed the village
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MS Sasuke stated that he could that

Sasuke joined the Akatsuki before he unlocked MS's power because he thought he required the Bijuu's power to destroy the village. He changed his plans and abandoned them after he got MS because the MS was enough for him to do it by himself.
He said this after using Amaterasu for the first time. So that has to be the key. He would probably set trees on fire which would quickly spread to others heating up the atmosphere then launch Kirin.

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Madara was holding the five Kages with his half Susano'o, and Madara's MS and Susano'o are inferior to Sasuke because he doesn't have the Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi combo which can one-shot anyone upon touch.
EMS is a big power boost.

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So what exactly do you think Nagato got over Sasuke?

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I mean Nagato nearly died making that Chibaku Tensei. Kirin is much easier to use in comparison. The preparation for Kirin itself is probably faster than CT, the jutsu itself is also faster and much easier to use as it doesn't take that much chakra.

Very very easy
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Very very hard
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Nagato was weakened from destroying Konoha.

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The fact that Danzo was able to do that means the attack potency of his wind style is very high. Remember that the Raikage's strongest attacks basically caused no meaningful damage to Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o (the weakest form of Susano'o).

There's no proof that Nagato's shinra tensei has an attack potency even close to Danzo's wind style.
Scale β‰  potency like here:

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πŸ‘

Yes, he can. One of the smartest characters in the Naruto universe + the Sharingan can give information about every ability. And we don't know when did Sasuke actually figure Izanagi out. We only know when Karin did.

As I've said before, if 3t Sasuke is fighting with intel and the deva path restricted like against Naruto he would win. He has the sharingan + multiple summonings + hax + Kirin.

MS Sasuke would win in a random encounter with no intel and restrictions.

Danzo's ability was much better than that.
He just has to not give them the chance to heal. If they healed once, he won't give them the chance the next time.
I'll analyze closer when I reread the series.
 
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Began to skip points because you couldn't form a counter and didn't want to admit you're wrong. While addressing things you thought you had a chance on. Then ultimately dropped those as well. Losing interest came hand in hand with losing the debate.
I hope you realize I made this thread 3 months ago. It's natural to lose interest in it after that long time. If you want to consider yourself to have won go ahead, but I'm telling you I'm not debating because I lost interest.


Provides water for his jutsu.
Darui, Killer Bee, and the Raikage used lightning against Sasuke. In order to manipulate an element it has be mixed with his chakra. I don't think he can mix his chakra with natural rain.


I know he's above them. Clearly shown with one of his most underrated feats. Despite being weakened from the Raikage and a sensor stating he arrived, no one even saw him enter the room. Let alone reach the ceiling & cut the flags. It took another sensor stating his location for them to finally notice. As he stood there watching Danzo. He could have sliced their heads off instead of the flags.

Raikage was stated to be on par with Minato whose the fastest shinobi in history. Yet Sasuke easily evaded him while having Chidori activated for a pinpointed attack & Raikage timed his movements with Amaterasu's activation to evade. If Sasuke placed him in a subtle genjutsu like Danzo his timing would be off.
Are you arguing for Kisame against Sasuke or Sasuke against Kisame right now?

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Preta path was Momoshiki's main jutsu and was stronger than any other regular Preta path. For example, why didn't Sasuke just absorb Momoshiki's TBB in the chuunin exams instead of having Naruto sacrifice himself to stop it? It wasn't stated but heavily implied that it does.

Knowing he's fighting an Uchiha he probably would and Sasuke rarely begins with genjutsu.
Don't you think that knowing that he's fighting the perfect jinchuriki of the 8-tails he should've also started with fusion?

It shows he was fully aware Bee needed to be captured alive and acted upon it. In that scene he was using allies against him, but the entire battle he was shaving off Bee's chakra to weaken him for capture.
It shows to me that he couldn't afford fighting an all-out Killer Bee

Then don't hype Kirin so much.
It is an underrated jutsu if anything. Sasuke created it and poured all his hatred for Itachi in it. That's why it is OP, and as I've said in the other thread, no Kage has an attack on that scale except for the god tiers. It is a low god-tier attack that busted Itachi's Susano'o.

I bet you thought he was 3-0.
Yes.
I actually don't mind if Naruto was even superior. I like Naruto. He's my second favorite character. I just don't like most of his fans. I'm neutral toward Itachi, but I don't like how overrated he is.

This isn't a sports match. There are no rules. Doesn't matter if Itachi was on the toilet.
But Sasuke wants to prove himself. It is not just about killing Itachi. Sasuke's whole family looked down upon him, which is a large part of the problem.

Then what is it.
In my opinion, Sasuke at the start of Shippuden with 3t precognition, genjutsu, lightning verstality, high stats, high skills, curse mark, summoning, Kirin, and everything he was already legendary Sannin/ high-Kage level. With his MS healthy and at full-power, he is a league or 2 above that.

😳😳😳😳😳😳 I've never seen anyone mention this. Naruto stating he needed Kurama already made it definitive that MS Sasuke is stronger but this is even more proof.
Cool. I do honestly believe that if MS Sasuke and SM Naruto fought, the latter would've lost even worse than he did in VoTE 1. He was not on Sasuke's level until he befriended Kurama.

πŸ˜€ I'm gonna start using your points when hyping Sasuke in general. Like on Naruto vs Pain videos I'll say, "It's amusing to see the Akatsuki leader with the Sage of Six Paths eye abilities struggle with a problem Sasuke could easily prevent."

Nonetheless, stopping Kurama has no barring on how he would fare against Nagato given the ability is useless against him.
The fact that Sasuke suppressed Kurama meant that these nine-tail rampages would no longer work against him.

Sure it might not mean much when it comes to Sasuke vs Pain but we were just discussing how awesome Kisame was in his fight against Killer Bee when he has an advantage against people with high chakra that wouldn't necessarily work against other opponents

:)

He said this after using Amaterasu for the first time. So that has to be the key. He would probably set trees on fire which would quickly spread to others heating up the atmosphere then launch Kirin.



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Maybe

EMS is a big power boost.

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I don't think the EMS boosts anything. Madara's incomplete Susano'o didn't perform better against the Kages' attacks than Sasuke's.

Nagato was weakened from destroying Konoha.

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MS Sasuke didn't fight anyone while at full power. He was physically weakened and fighting with a premature MS the whole time.

(y)

I'll analyze closer when I reread the series.
You should read a colored version of the manga. Best experience I had with Naruto. 100 times better than the anime.
 
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Naruto X Hunter

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Darui, Killer Bee, and the Raikage used lightning against Sasuke.
What does this have to do with Kisame using rain for his jutsu?

Are you arguing for Kisame against Sasuke or Sasuke against Kisame right now?
You asked if I knew how big of a boost MS was. So I gave a detailed answer pointing an underrated feat even you may not have noticed.

Preta path was Momoshiki's main jutsu and was stronger than any other regular Preta path. For example, why didn't Sasuke just absorb Momoshiki's TBB in the chuunin exams instead of having Naruto sacrifice himself to stop it? It wasn't stated but heavily implied that it does.
😳 What about the Biju? He simultaneously extracted their chakra easily. Does that count as absorption & is the volume of chakra similar to a Bijudama?

Don't you think that knowing that he's fighting the perfect jinchuriki of the 8-tails he should've also started with fusion?
Not based on Sameheda's absorption rate.

It shows to me that he couldn't afford fighting an all-out Killer Bee
Took a V2 Lariat head-on, recovered in seconds then quickly absorbed all of Bee's chakra.

It is an underrated jutsu if anything. Sasuke created it and poured all his hatred for Itachi in it. That's why it is OP, and as I've said in the other thread, no Kage has an attack on that scale except for the god tiers. It is a low god-tier attack that busted Itachi's Susano'o.
Did you notice how Sasuke's lightning arrow is aimed at Deidara's head in the recent illustration? Wonder if that was done on purpose.

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1-0 was the first academy battle in chapter 538. Yes, the FIRST. There was a second. He got 2-0 there. Chapter 3. Naruto's goal was to restrain Sasuke long enough to ruin his reputation with Sakura. He failed.

3-0 was the Valley win. 4-0 was the beat down at Orochimaru's hideout & 5-0 was achieved at the Samurai bridge.

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I actually don't mind if Naruto was even superior. I like Naruto. He's my second favorite character. I just don't like most of his fans. I'm neutral toward Itachi, but I don't like how overrated he is.
πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜† I was exactly the same til this thread (minus the not minding if Naruto was superior).

But Sasuke wants to prove himself. It is not just about killing Itachi. Sasuke's whole family looked down upon him, which is a large part of the problem.
He wouldn't have used the Curse mark & absorb Orochimaru if that's the case.

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In my opinion, Sasuke at the start of Shippuden with 3t precognition, genjutsu, lightning verstality, high stats, high skills, curse mark, summoning, Kirin, and everything he was already legendary Sannin/ high-Kage level. With his MS healthy and at full-power, he is a league or 2 above that.
I was thinking low Kage without & high with.

Cool. I do honestly believe that if MS Sasuke and SM Naruto fought, the latter would've lost even worse than he did in VoTE 1. He was not on Sasuke's level until he befriended Kurama.
Do you think KCM is stronger MS Sasuke? What about EMS vs KCM, BM vs EMS, BSM vs EMS & SPSM vs Rinnegan.

The fact that Sasuke suppressed Kurama meant that these nine-tail rampages would no longer work against him.

Sure it might not mean much when it comes to Sasuke vs Pain but we were just discussing how awesome Kisame was in his fight against Killer Bee when he has an advantage against people with high chakra that wouldn't necessarily work against other opponents
It's an advantage against everyone. One swipe is enough to deplete most people's chakra. Your argument was that Susano probably can't be absorbed despite being made of chakra. I don't see how it's any different from chakra cloaks.

It had to be. That & Susano.

I don't think the EMS boosts anything. Madara's incomplete Susano'o didn't perform better against the Kages' attacks than Sasuke's.
Sasuke gained Itachi's chakra. So Madara gained Izuna's.

MS Sasuke didn't fight anyone while at full power. He was physically weakened and fighting with a premature MS the whole time.
Point is Chibaku Tensei wouldn't harm him (at least not as much) if he was in better health. Your comparison is like using Sasuke against Kakashi to claim he can barely use Susano before going blind.
 
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What does this have to do with Kisame using rain for his jutsu?



You asked if I knew how big of a boost MS was. So I gave a detailed answer pointing an underrated feat even you may not have noticed.
His chakra has to be mixed with the water in order to manipulate it.

And I knew about these feats.

😳 What about the Biju? He simultaneously extracted their chakra easily. Does that count as absorption & is the volume of chakra similar to a Bijudama?
His chakra was connected and controlling theirs through mind control. If it worked the way you think it does, he would've absorbed Naruto Kurama avatar's chakra instead of the beast.

Not based on Sameheda's absorption rate.
If he started the battle against Killer Bee without fusion, then I think there's no way he would start the battle against Sasuke with it.

Took a V2 Lariat head-on, recovered in seconds then quickly absorbed all of Bee's chakra.
Because of his advantage against Killer Bee and people who have high chakra.

Did you notice how Sasuke's lightning arrow is aimed at Deidara's head in the recent illustration? Wonder if that was done on purpose.

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What does that have to do with what I said? And no I don't think it means anything.

1-0 was the first academy battle in chapter 538. Yes, the FIRST. There was a second. He got 2-0 there. Chapter 3. Naruto's goal was to restrain Sasuke long enough to ruin his reputation with Sakura. He failed.

3-0 was the Valley win. 4-0 was the beat down at Orochimaru's hideout & 5-0 was achieved at the Samurai bridge.

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ok

πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜† I was exactly the same til this thread (minus the not minding if Naruto was superior).
:)

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[/SPOILER]
These things became part of his body like how Naruto is using the nine-tails is not considered cheating. If it does count as cheating, then Itachi using the MS against 3t Sasuke also counts as such.


I was thinking low Kage without & high with.
A lot higher to me.

For example, Sasuke's fight against the Raikage is perceived as a low-showing for Sasuke by the Narutards. But the fact that the Raikage was being stalemated (and I'm being generous here, he was actually being beaten as he lost his arm and was about to lose his leg) while using V 2.0 and going all-out against Sasuke who is only using a rib cage Susano'o, shows the power gap between these two.

If the Raikage was using V 2.0 lightning armor, Sasuke was using V 0.2 Susano'o. Anything beyond that and the Raikage would have been overwhelmed.

And the Raikage is definitely among the strongest Kages, if not the strongest.

As for 3t Sasuke, beating Deidara while holding back alone puts him at high-Kage level. Remember that the same Deidara beat Gaara while holding back and was considered by Kisame to be among the strongest members.

Do you think KCM is stronger MS Sasuke?
No. I do believe that KCM Naruto is stronger than the Raikage but not at MS Sasuke's level.

What about EMS vs KCM
Early EMS would be just as bad for KCM as the MS, except that Sasuke can maintain his performance the whole day, and his chakra and Susano'o are continuously getting stronger.

BM vs EMS
BM > Early EMS with incomplete Susano'o. There's a speed gap, The Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi + Susano'o combos won't work due to the Kurama avatar, genjutsu definitely won't work, and TBBs would likely destroy that version of Susano'o.

BSM vs EMS
BSM vs EMS with legged Susano'o is most likely a stalemate. Their speed is equal as was shown in the Juubito fight (Sasuke's speed and EMSs Precog clearly upgraded after he unlocked legged Susano'o). I think it depends on whether Susano'o arrows are equal in AP to Nine-Tails TBBs or not. Most likely they're equal.

Sasuke's Susano'o arrows are basically Tailed Beast Bombs in the form of a concentrated piercing attack.

When made by the Rinnegan, they can casually pierce through Truth Seeking Orbs.

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And Remember that TSO can tank Ten-Tails Tailed Beast Bombs

& SPSM vs Rinnegan.
Honestly, I don't know how Sasuke can handle Ashura's avatar without Tailed Beast Chakra, but on the other hand, I don't know what Naruto can do against a non-nerfed Amenotejikara. Naruto would move to attack Sasuke only to find Sasuke's sword in his skull lol.

This battle is a toss for me. I don't know who would win, to be honest. One has the raw power, and the other has the hax.


It's an advantage against everyone. One swipe is enough to deplete most people's chakra. Your argument was that Susano probably can't be absorbed despite being made of chakra. I don't see how it's any different from chakra cloaks.
I think it only works this way against Killer Bee because his chakra was outside his body. Samehade literally eats it.

You're making me repeat myself about the Susano'o. Sasuke fought several people who can absorb chakra and nobody absorbed his Susano'o. That includes Kaguya, Momoshiki, and Jigen. There's no proof it can be absorbed.
It had to be. That & Susano.
I think he was aware of Susano's existence.

Sasuke gained Itachi's chakra. So Madara gained Izuna's.
Yet, Early EMS Sasuke wasn't even implied to be stronger than Edo Itachi. More like, Sasuke regained back his own ocular power through Itachi's eyes.

Point is Chibaku Tensei wouldn't harm him (at least not as much) if he was in better health. Your comparison is like using Sasuke against Kakashi to claim he can barely use Susano before going blind.
Neither one of them was fighting at full capacity.
 
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If he started the battle against Killer Bee without fusion, then I think there's no way he would start the battle against Sasuke with it.
Either way he would avoid eye contact.

What does that have to do with what I said? And no I don't think it means anything.
Nothing. Just an interesting observation.

No. I do believe that KCM Naruto is stronger than the Raikage but not at MS Sasuke's level.
MS Sasuke couldn't track full powered Raikage who KCM Naruto evaded.

BSM vs EMS with legged Susano'o is most likely a stalemate. Their speed is equal as was shown in the Juubito fight (Sasuke's speed and EMSs Precog clearly upgraded after he unlocked legged Susano'o). I think it depends on whether Susano'o arrows are equal in AP to Nine-Tails TBBs or not. Most likely they're equal.
Sasuke was amped by Senjutsu from Jugo a portion of the fight.

Sasuke's Susano'o arrows are basically Tailed Beast Bombs in the form of a concentrated piercing attack.

When made by the Rinnegan, they can casually pierce through Truth Seeking Orbs.

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And Remember that TSO can tank Ten-Tails Tailed Beast Bombs
That pic didn't happen in the manga.

Honestly, I don't know how Sasuke can handle Ashura's avatar without Tailed Beast Chakra, but on the other hand, I don't know what Naruto can do against a non-nerfed Amenotejikara. Naruto would move to attack Sasuke only to find Sasuke's sword in his skull lol.

This battle is a toss for me. I don't know who would win, to be honest. One has the raw power, and the other has the hax.
Can't be a toss up with Sasuke immediately winning in the way you said. Naruto & Kurama wouldn't have the chance to gather nature energy.

I think it only works this way against Killer Bee because his chakra was outside his body. Samehade literally eats it.

You're making me repeat myself about the Susano'o. Sasuke fought several people who can absorb chakra and nobody absorbed his Susano'o. That includes Kaguya, Momoshiki, and Jigen. There's no proof it can be absorbed.
πŸ‘

Yet, Early EMS Sasuke wasn't even implied to be stronger than Edo Itachi. More like, Sasuke regained back his own ocular power through Itachi's eyes.
He said he could feel himself getting stronger from Itachi's power.

Neither one of them was fighting at full capacity.
Yes but Kirin isn't really dependent on Sasuke's health.
 
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Either way he would avoid eye contact.
He would be at a great disatvantage. Fighting an opponent faster than him and he's even allowed to look at him directly.

Not to mention that you're arguing that Kisame could beat 3t Sasuke through having intel on his abilities which again proves Kisame's inferiority, like Naruto against Pain.


MS Sasuke couldn't track full powered Raikage who KCM Naruto evaded.
He didn't do it casually. I'd say they have about the same level of speed.
Raikage was only faster than Sasuke with ribcage susano'o who is not accustomed to his MS. Sasuke's chakra, eyes, and Susano'o went through multiple evolutions later on. Additionally, speed is useless if he has no means of damaging him, and he can be one-shotted by either a genjutsu or amaterasu which surrounds Sasuke's Susano'o like against the Raikage.


Sasuke was amped by Senjutsu from Jugo a portion of the fight.
V 1.0 Curse Mark is not even a boost at that point of the story and definitely wouldn't make Sasuke match Juubito. It only gave his attacks the means to harm him. Additionally, the Susano'o is only as fast as Sasuke himself, and the curse mark was on the Susano's body, it didn't boost Sasuke. Like how the tailed beast chakra in the final fight boosted the Susano's attack power, but didn't boost its speed. The chakra is not in contact with Sasuke himself, who is moving the Susano.

That pic didn't happen in the manga.
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He said he could feel himself getting stronger from Itachi's power.
His powers were diminished due to losing his eyesight. As I've said, all that was happening was that Sasuke's own powers were returning back to him.

If Itachi's power were being added to him, he should've been massively superior to him in the Kabuto fight. Since he would've been Sasuke + Itachi.

But honestly, at this point I feel like you're pretending to be a Sasuke fan lol.
 
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