[Discussion] Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

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First and foremost Heaven and hell is real....u talk of christ raising lazarus from the dead and twisted that scripture to your belief...if you read the bible well..during the baptism of christ..the heavens opend...during his transfiguration..the heavens opend...do not forget the parable of the rich man and lazarus...you talk of lazarus but u forget he aint the only person christ raised from the dead..example..jarius daughter, the widow's son...christ was moved to tears when he saw the sorrow of the sisters of lazarus that's why he rose lazarus...so please try getting facts before you twist the scripture and confuse people.
 

olumiday

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I agree with you,
Lazarus (joke: Edo Lazarus ;-) ) was dead for 4 days yet when he was brought back, he didn't narrate any story or show any signs that he was either enjoying in heaven or suffering in hell.
 

olumiday

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First and foremost Heaven and hell is real....u talk of christ raising lazarus from the dead and twisted that scripture to your belief...if you read the bible well..during the baptism of christ..the heavens opend...during his transfiguration..the heavens opend...do not forget the parable of the rich man and lazarus...you talk of lazarus but u forget he aint the only person christ raised from the dead..example..jarius daughter, the widow's son...christ was moved to tears when he saw the sorrow of the sisters of lazarus that's why he rose lazarus...so please try getting facts before you twist the scripture and confuse people.

No doubt heaven is real. but hell ... it's a complicated issue. some people would be thrown into the lake of fire, and thereafter, burn to death/ashes.
Heaven is coming to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. meaning, nobody goes to heaven at death.

BTW how come you have just 2 posts since 2011? few posts just like me too. :-D
 

AlexXx

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To explain why I believe there is no Afterlife, I will use a tale directly from the Bible itself: The resurrection of Lazarus.

Lazarus was a holy man and a friend of Jesus. Now, when Lazarus died, even Jesus was in grief and was driven to tears. This caused Jesus to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

But, think about this for a second. Lazarus was Jesus' friend. That means that Lazarus was holy enough to get into Heaven, right? But, since Heaven is the greatest place ever, why would Jesus remove him from there just to bring him back to Earth, just so he die a second time? Why would he do that to someone whom he cared so much about?

Now, I understand that Jesus could have brought him back to ease his and others' grief. But Jesus isn't a selfish person, and this is a selfish act. Jesus also has shown that he does not use his power for personal benefit, such as when Satan tempted him.

This is why I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die. Thoughts?

Note: Please don't see things like Jesus and God and stuff doesn't exist. No one cares and this discussion is based on their existence. If you don't believe they exist, but still wanna discuss, then pretend they exist, pretend this is from an anime/manga.

maybe jesus knows that he wont go to heaven. and who says that this lazarus is holy
 

FreakensteinAG

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If we are to assume that God is both omnipotent and omniscient, then we also have to assume that there would be no need for any sacrifices, psychological torture, backwards laws, nor "have none of it" with hateful groups of people that is portrayed in these religious books. There's no need, if God had that power! He could have created everything the exact same way without the need for needless sacrifices (note: killing of self, killing of children, killing of babies, extinction of plants), and we would have all been hunky-dory people nonetheless. What hopskotch!
 

toothpaste

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This is a question with a complicated answer. I think John is a terse theological statement about the nature of what Christians call "the Trinity".

Briefly:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

First, the first part states that the Word existed in the beginning. In other words, this word was eternal. The second statement says that this eternal Word was with God. The interesting thing is that "with" denotes distinction. If I said I were with you, I would be implicitly saying that I am not you, I am me. The next statement becomes even more interesting: the Word was God.

How can the Word be both with God and be God at the same time? It would be like saying I am with myself, right?

Well, not quite. The beauty of the language is lost in the English, but marvelously displayed in Greek. In short, when it says that the Word is God, the syntax suggests a qualitative assertion. In other words, the Word is qualitatively God. He is, in essence God.

How is he with God? The Word is with God in that he is not "the Father", he is "the Son". This is the gist of the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons. They are not 1 person occurring in three forms. They are distinct and unique. However, they are each have the quality or essence of God/divinity. Yet there are not three gods, there is only one. In this way, the Word is God (has the essence/quality of divinity) and is with God (is distinct in personhood from God aka the Father).

This is what Scriptures affirm. How this "works" is a mystery to me. Some people have pointed out helpful (although imperfect examples) of H2O (liquid, solid, gas; one compound) and marriage (two people become one flesh). All I know is that this is what the Scriptures teach.

Jesus' Godhood enables him to say what he said in John 14:7: "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” To know the Son is to know the Father. To see the Son is to see the Father. Why? Because the Son and the Father are "one". If it's complicated, it is only because God is God. It's even crazier to suggest that God became incarnate (in the flesh).

But this is who Jesus is. It's exactly why the Jews tried to kill him. Because they thought he was blaspheming the name of God by identifying himself with Him. Normally, they'd be right. Normally anyone who called themselves God would be considered a nutjob. But it turns out this "Jesus" really was God. And it's not really a leap of faith; Jesus accompanied his words with deeds. He demonstrated his divinity visibly by his actions. He raised Lazarus from the dead, he walked on water, he healed the sick. God loved us even to the point of condescend himself to our fleshly nature so that he could be with us and give to us eternal life.

the better question would be: why would this sky fairy create us in a way which allows for sin?

christopher hitchens said it best i think. (i paraphrase)

"in order to be christian you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered, most of our species died. high mortality rate during childbirth, there was famine, disease, natural disasters, and wars. then 2000 years later, god decided it was time to intervene. god sent himself down to have himself tortured and executed, then resurrected. god decided to intervene in the most illiterate part of the world at that time, the middle east. let's not, for example, go to the Chinese at that time who knew how to read and write and had a civilization."

what a majestic plan from the all knowing. let's not also forget the persecution of future generations of jews because of this.

but before we can argue any of this, we've to prove the assertion before we assume it: the assertion that there is a god and the assertion that jesus is god/son.

until today, there is no evidence.
 

NinjutsuSeeker

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To explain why I believe there is no Afterlife, I will use a tale directly from the Bible itself: The resurrection of Lazarus.

Lazarus was a holy man and a friend of Jesus. Now, when Lazarus died, even Jesus was in grief and was driven to tears. This caused Jesus to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

But, think about this for a second. Lazarus was Jesus' friend. That means that Lazarus was holy enough to get into Heaven, right? But, since Heaven is the greatest place ever, why would Jesus remove him from there just to bring him back to Earth, just so he die a second time? Why would he do that to someone whom he cared so much about?

Now, I understand that Jesus could have brought him back to ease his and others' grief. But Jesus isn't a selfish person, and this is a selfish act. Jesus also has shown that he does not use his power for personal benefit, such as when Satan tempted him.

This is why I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die. Thoughts?

Note: Please don't see things like Jesus and God and stuff doesn't exist. No one cares and this discussion is based on their existence. If you don't believe they exist, but still wanna discuss, then pretend they exist, pretend this is from an anime/manga.

Well or one thing, you are right, you do not die then magically go someplace in the sky called heaven. But what I can say is heaven and hell does exist. but it exist while you are alive. Think about it, your life can either be good( heaven ) or bad ( hell ), Do you see what I mean? God didn put us on this earth so that we can look forward to death, no, we are to do good now, so we can live a life of heaven, or we can choose to be disobedient and live a life of hell.
 

Noni

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wow since when did people on an anime site talk about religion so much...
 

Smd

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the bible wasnt made by jesus chirst himself.

it was made by numerous people.
 

kralomer

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I am Muslim and believe there is an afterlife with paradise and hell. Islam is the only religion that makes sense. Although the Original Torah and Original Bible were books sent by God, the current versions are full of fabricated stories. In the Qur'an there are lots of scientific miracles which explains the way the universe works. go here and check it out :)
 

sulanis

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But many don't believe words in the Bible, Christianity isn't the only religion.

I am one of them, the bible was translated many times and without a doubt there were things that couldn't be translated directly, so its open to say that some parts were written to turn things to suit human needs.

Another reason why i don't believe in the bible is because its totally open to interpretation! Everyone that reads it will have a different idea of what happened!
 

Rami787

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The bible was written and translated so many different times that it's difficult to really appreciate it's credibility. Plus if you do your research it mimics so many later texts before it, like almost exactly. Whether it's exact procedures and dates or even the stories
 

ltachl

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I think the answer is pretty clear, there's no heaven for us. Only resurrection at least that's what I understood when reading the bible especially revelation.
 

Guilty as Sin

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the better question would be: why would this sky fairy create us in a way which allows for sin?

christopher hitchens said it best i think. (i paraphrase)

"in order to be christian you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered, most of our species died. high mortality rate during childbirth, there was famine, disease, natural disasters, and wars. then 2000 years later, god decided it was time to intervene. god sent himself down to have himself tortured and executed, then resurrected. god decided to intervene in the most illiterate part of the world at that time, the middle east. let's not, for example, go to the Chinese at that time who knew how to read and write and had a civilization."

what a majestic plan from the all knowing. let's not also forget the persecution of future generations of jews because of this.

but before we can argue any of this, we've to prove the assertion before we assume it: the assertion that there is a god and the assertion that jesus is god/son.

until today, there is no evidence.

That is a loaded question, considering that it assumes that God was logistically able to create human beings who could not sin.

The better question would therefore be, "Could God have created humans who could not sin?"

That is a more philosophical question which I'm sure better men than I have responded to. In my opinion, I don't think God could have. Now, this might lead one to say, "then God is not omnipotent", but this is hardly what omnipotence means. The idea that one can do ANYTHING is inherently self-contradictory: For example, God's holiness demands that he never sin. Sin is contrary to his nature; God cannot sin. Does that mean he is not omnipotent? Hardly.

Rather, omnipotence simply means that God can do whatever he wants. If he wills X, he could do X. Consequently, because God is holy, he could not will sin. He therefore cannot commit sin, because he is God.

Now, are perfect moral beings something that God could create? Is that logically feasible? Maybe. I'd like to argue it's not. I think that "holiness", "morality", etc., are things that humans develop. Notice that Jesus died on the cross only after his baptism and ministry. He didn't die as an infant, or a child, or a teenager, or even a young man. He died after he proved through his deeds that he was the Son of God. He was exalted only after the cross. To put it simply, Jesus earned his title Son of God by what he did.

Romans 1:3 says, "concerning his Son, who was decended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead. Note that Jesus was already the "Son of God" ontologically speaking; this is referring to his exaltation to the throne at the "right hand of God". Hence, Son of God "in power".

That's all I'll say about that. Again, this is a question for God, not really for people. Hence the philosophical nature of it. I don't presume to understand how God works, but I do try my best to understand what I can and exercise humility and faith when I don't.

*****

Now onto that Christopher Hitchen quote.

He's quite wrong about the time of God's intervention. God did not intervene "2000 years later". He intervened at the very beginning. In fact, the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, is a movement of God's plan of salvation for humanity. Check out Genesis 3:15, which has been called the primitive gospel: "I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring (singular; i.e. the referent is to Jesus Christ), he (Jesus) shall bruise your (Satan) head, and you shall bruise his heel (this referring ultimately to Jesus' death on the Cross by which he defeated sin and Satan).

God's plan didn't not begin in 3 B.C. at Christ's birth "2000 years later". It didn't even begin in Genesis after the fall. God is, after all, omniscient.

That last part of that quote is pretty stupid. The gospel began in the middle east. More importantly, after the conquering of Ceasar which led to the Hellenization of many Jews, it would only make sense that Christianity begin in one of the largest empires; the Roman empire. This eventually spread to Europe and birthed the Roman Catholic Church. And then to North and South America. I'm sure you know your history regarding the movement to what as to become America in pursuit of religious freedom? I think, in retrospect, middle east was a pretty good idea: now Christianity is a global religion. That "critique", if it could even be called one, is entirely irrelevant. The gospel spread, and that's what matters.

Now, I want to very briefly answer your last statement about evidence, assertions, etc. I could go into more philosophical arguments (like the cosmological argument; all things needing a cause, etc.). You can always look that up yourself. I want to say this: there is evidence. No, I'm not talking about spiritual evidence, although I do think that the lives of other people are a wonderful testimony to the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

I'm talking about the Bible. Have you noticed? How else can I know that God created Adam and Eve? How else would I know that Jesus Christ died for our sins if it were not for the recorded evidence that is called Scriptures.

Now, before you roll your eyes, I acknowledge that to you, it can hardly be called good evidence. How do we know this wasn't just made up by some guys, right? I'll let the scholars and archeologists who unearth manuscripts, etc., deal with that.

Here's my point though: there is evidence. Even if you consider it to be unreliable. The burden of proof is on Christians, and we have it in the Holy Scriptures: God's revelation of himself to us. If you don't like it, all well and good. That is your prerogative. But don't say that there isn't evidence, because it's staring you right in the face.
 
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You're ** xd

Anyway, Chirstianity isn't the only religion. I am not a Christian, but I guess it was her opinion that it's not the best.

Ehr... whut. It's your actually. You're is 'you are'. You are opinion. I doubt he's opinion.
 

SasoriOfTheRedSaand

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I am not a Christian myself, but I learned of this when I was in school.

According to my teacher (he's a prick), Lazarus died before Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. It was until after the Jesus' sacrifice that everyone was promised heaven. And since Lazarus was already dead, he resurrected him, in fear that he might have gone to hell.
 

repulse

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Sadly my freind there is heaven and based of what you did in your life if you did good and prayed for god then you will go to heaven but if you did bad in Real life sadly you will go to hell.

You know, you aren't considering what the OP said. It's a conundrum.

The entire heaven and hell thing, I am pretty sure God forgives all, unless he does things like the Egyptians with the Feather of Truth.
 

repulse

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wow since when did people on an anime site talk about religion so much...

It's not strictly for "anime". This is a forum that has a multitude of sections where you can discuss a variety of topics.
 

Gyakusetsu

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Jesus also apparently Edo Tensei'd Moses and Elijah but then released them. Lazarus was a full Rinnei Tensei
 
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