[Discussion] Why I don't believe we'll go to Heaven when we die

[Mante]

I suggest you read some other Sacred text, like Quran. You know, it's not very good to decide such a big thing without checking your next option..

 

[Walking Zodiac]

A relatively clear perspective, but that story tells me that heaven and hell do not exist. What one can also say is that there is a Self that inhabits all beings, and when beings die, they are no longer manifest in this world and they exist as that very Self. Interesting point you made about Lazarus's ressurection. If he did not go to heaven, then where did Jesus call him back from? I have an understanding of it, but I want to hear yours.

 

[MarkPaul]

Reading the whole bible will make you turn this thread from Why I Believe etc.

 

[Walking Zodiac]

Didn't Jesus also say that he was the Son of Man? He never had such an ego to proclaim it, even if he was the son of God. Also another look at it is that Jesus in the beautitudes says "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God." He's called the Prince of Peace.

First, thank you for reading my post and replying. Let me gently rebuke you by saying that your logic is slightly off.

What does John 3:16 say? "For God so loved the world....". Naturally, we can conclude that by "world", he means the inhabitants of the world (us). However, are we good? No. But God loves us! That's the beauty of the Gospel. We aren't good. Yet God still loves us and decides to send his son.

And let me nuance your statement a bit. Jesus follows the same standards of God because he is God. This is what is known as the "Trinity", though I acknowledge that not everyone believes this; although this is what the Scriptures teach, and that is what I go by.

So you're right. God detests wickedness. Yet even in our wickedness, for some crazy, unimaginable reason, he still cares about us.

 

[Unbiased King]

I thought Ice Cube from Barbershop II explained why; Jesus saw Martha and Mary cry over their body. So Jesus saw how sad they were and couldn't help but cry too; kinda like when you see some epic movie where an important character dies or something.

 

[Kira Vs L]

Psh, I don't give a damn if it's welcome or not. There's just no use in talking about it anymore.

Just read my post on the 3rd page and you will know what why he did what he did. Simple

 

[OrochiLeo]

What if the Bible was one big metaphor? There were alot of stories in the Bible that were similar to other faiths. Also, some people need a reason to believe what they believe, oppose to what they see and perceive. I believe Lazarus was metaphorically speaking. In the Bible it said, I am the resurrection and the life, no man gets to the Father except by me(or something like that). In other words, he was the "conduit" to the passage of "heaven". If thats the case, then Lazarus probably would have been in purgatory until the end time of Jesus in the flesh.
When he died on the cross, according to the Bible, many saints were resurrected speaking to other people. When he died, even the the thief to his right side of his cross went to "paradise"(pair-of-dice) with him. So what that's telling me is even if Lazarus was a holy dude, he still wouldnt be able to get to Heaven...hmm? Remember, Jesus said to Nicodemus(is that right spelling?) "In order for you to enter into the kingdom of heaven, you have to be born again. Lazarus was not born again. Other martyrs such as Antipas was not born again, only Jesus was. This is why Lazarus was bought back...to save him from purgatory. See when Jesus died, he could afford to go to purgatory because he was the key. Jesus also said, "such is the kingdom of God is a little child"(at least thats what it said in the 80's version.) In other words, open your heart and mind to God, and you will find that heaven you're looking for.
Now the agnostic in me: When asked about how and where is heaven, Jesus would often tell a parable. In fact, EVERY faith has a different version of heaven...as well as hell. The Papyrus of Ani, from Islam, from Confuscious, to Krishna, to any other.
Sigh.....I guess everyone has their own version of heaven. Keep searching the truth and questioning authority...someday we'll find it.
Interesting post.

 

[oooog]

I agree. Here are other reasons I dont buy into heaven or hell.

If you have children of your own as well, you would realize that no loving parent would ever punish their child by burning them, even for a second. And for eternity? If god is Just, regardless of the heinous acts you could commit on earth, in no way would it be fair to have someone burn forever. That is a lop sided scale and the bible says gods justice is perfect.

Deuteronomy 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are justice: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Also, the bible mentions hades or sheol when people die, which is really just the common grave of all mankind, if you look at what the translated word really means it literally means grave.

When Jesus did mention Gehenna, the context and translation of that greek word refers to the valley of Hinnom, which was south east of Jerusalem. The valley of Hinnom was what the city used as a dump, and they had fire to assist with getting rid of the garbage, and sulfur and brimstone were added to assist the burning. For people who were lawbreakers, there dead bodies were thrown in as a symbol that they were unfit for a burial. When Jesus said someone would be pitched into Gehenna he was saying that after the resurrection mentioned in John below, if someone was truly unrepentant of their sins, they would be cut off forever. No one ever came back from Gehenna, however no one living was ever thrown into the pit as punishment. ***add*** Also, Jesus wasnt saying people would literally be thrown into Gehenna. He was using this as an example that the people of his time could understand. ***

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says this:

For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.

John 5 28 and 29 says this
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation

both the new King James versions (I personally don't use this version, it is just a widely accepted version)

Also, If we were to think that evil people were sent to hell to be tormented by Satan, that would really give the devil something to be good for. The Devil in the bible is good for nothing, he is the reason things in this world are so bad, and according to Revelation 12:9 he's not in hell, he's on earth.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

*IF* you believe in the bible dont let people scare you with heaven or hell. But I spent a lot of time doing independent research I just happen to know ALOT about the bible.

what happens to righteous people is found at Psalms 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

this goes hand in hand with what Matthew 5:5 says:
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Also Revelation 21: 3,4 says:

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Those verses describe these people:

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands

The reason no one could number that group is our lives are not predetermined in the bible. So that Number could be gigantic or small its up to the individual. This also tells us that no race is greater in god's eyes, they all have the same chance for repentance.

The number of people in heaven however is numbered:

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

These are with Jesus, the sacrificial lamb, these fulfill god's prophecy of 12000 out of each the 12 tribes of Israel, which was transferred into a "Spiritual Israel" when the Jewish people rejected Jesus.

I could go on for hours

 

[Guilty as Sin]

Didn't Jesus also say that he was the Son of Man? He never had such an ego to proclaim it, even if he was the son of God. Also another look at it is that Jesus in the beautitudes says "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God." He's called the Prince of Peace.

Yes he did call himself the son of God* (you said the Son of Man, then switched to Son of God in the same sentence. I'm going to assume you meant Son of God for both). And he did proclaim it--it wasn't an "ego" thing. In Matthew 10:32-33, Jesus says "my Father who is in heaven", indirectly stating that he was his Son.

Now, you make an interesting observation. In the book of John, John (the author) makes a theological distinction between the term "son" and "children". "Son" is only used of Jesus, whereas "children" is only used of the rest of humanity (cf. John 1:12). This distinction is unique to John; it is used interchangeably in other books.

Nevertheless, the point remains the same throughout Scripture: believers are children of God, but Jesus is God's son in a unique way. This is affirmed in John 1:14 and John 3:16, in which the Greek adjective monogenes (pronounced maw-no-geh-nase), modifies son, i.e. unique or only Son. The Son's relationship to the Father is unique. As John says in 1:18, "No one has ever seen God (Father); the only God (Son), who is at the Father's side, he (Son) has made him known.". Check out John 10:34-39 if you have time.

Jesus identifying himself as God's Son and God as his Father was a tremendous statement then; in fact Jesus did it first! It is only now that we can call ourselves children of God through Jesus Christ; the implications of being his child is, to put it succinctly, inheritance, inheritance referring to eternal life.

 

[Spectre27]

I totally didn't read any of the other posts, but Lazarus couldn't go to heaven yet. When Jesus died, the gates of Heaven were opened. All those who died beforehand were then able to enter into paradise. Before they were all in Purgatory or Hell.

 

[SharinganUser1]

Did you read the Bible? Human was allowed to go to Heaven when Jesus sacrificed himself to save the world.He resurrected Lazarus because he was afraid that he is going straight to hell,Jesus didn't die at that time

He wasn't scared he would go to hell. He wanted to show his power by bringing lazarus back to life.

 

[Lokiboriz]

If you look at the other miracles that Jesus did you can notice that he had always something to teach to the people around him. Also when you die you don't go straight to heaven or hell, there is something in between (which i don't know the word of, i speak spanish). But if you want more info please contact me

 

[Wiinoob64]

Yes he did call himself the son of God* (you said the Son of Man, then switched to Son of God in the same sentence. I'm going to assume you meant Son of God for both). And he did proclaim it--it wasn't an "ego" thing. In Matthew 10:32-33, Jesus says "my Father who is in heaven", indirectly stating that he was his Son.

Now, you make an interesting observation. In the book of John, John (the author) makes a theological distinction between the term "son" and "children". "Son" is only used of Jesus, whereas "children" is only used of the rest of humanity (cf. John 1:12). This distinction is unique to John; it is used interchangeably in other books.

Nevertheless, the point remains the same throughout Scripture: believers are children of God, but Jesus is God's son in a unique way. This is affirmed in John 1:14 and John 3:16, in which the Greek adjective monogenes (pronounced maw-no-geh-nase), modifies son, i.e. unique or only Son. The Son's relationship to the Father is unique. As John says in 1:18, "No one has ever seen God (Father); the only God (Son), who is at the Father's side, he (Son) has made him known.". Check out John 10:34-39 if you have time.

Jesus identifying himself as God's Son and God as his Father was a tremendous statement then; in fact Jesus did it first! It is only now that we can call ourselves children of God through Jesus Christ; the implications of being his child is, to put it succinctly, inheritance, inheritance referring to eternal life.

hey so can i ask you something ( off topic but i really wanted to know ) .. does the bible say anything specific about ghost or human spirits. You know like paranormal phenomenon? (or maybe people who didn't cross over)

 

[Mante]

Yes he did call himself the son of God* (you said the Son of Man, then switched to Son of God in the same sentence. I'm going to assume you meant Son of God for both). And he did proclaim it--it wasn't an "ego" thing. In Matthew 10:32-33, Jesus says "my Father who is in heaven", indirectly stating that he was his Son.

Now, you make an interesting observation. In the book of John, John (the author) makes a theological distinction between the term "son" and "children". "Son" is only used of Jesus, whereas "children" is only used of the rest of humanity (cf. John 1:12). This distinction is unique to John; it is used interchangeably in other books.

Nevertheless, the point remains the same throughout Scripture: believers are children of God, but Jesus is God's son in a unique way. This is affirmed in John 1:14 and John 3:16, in which the Greek adjective monogenes (pronounced maw-no-geh-nase), modifies son, i.e. unique or only Son. The Son's relationship to the Father is unique. As John says in 1:18, "No one has ever seen God (Father); the only God (Son), who is at the Father's side, he (Son) has made him known.". Check out John 10:34-39 if you have time.

Jesus identifying himself as God's Son and God as his Father was a tremendous statement then; in fact Jesus did it first! It is only now that we can call ourselves children of God through Jesus Christ; the implications of being his child is, to put it succinctly, inheritance, inheritance referring to eternal life.

how can son and the father be one? Also, why does he has to send his own son to be brutally murder for the sins that we never comit, but Adam and Eve did?

 

[Lokiboriz]

hey so can i ask you something ( off topic but i really wanted to know ) .. does the bible say anything specific about ghost or human spirits. You know like paranormal phenomenon? (or maybe people who didn't cross over)

It does, you can mainly find it in the old testament, want me to find it for you?

 

[Sarahmint]

Well given the evidence itself, the very bible has been controlled, translated, and rewritten by the church and has lots of corruption in its history. Care to provide a stronger example of heaven then "the bible"?

 

[DELTA704]

To explain why I believe there is no Afterlife, I will use a tale directly from the Bible itself: The resurrection of Lazarus.

Lazarus was a holy man and a friend of Jesus. Now, when Lazarus died, even Jesus was in grief and was driven to tears. This caused Jesus to bring Lazarus back from the dead.

But, think about this for a second. Lazarus was Jesus' friend. That means that Lazarus was holy enough to get into Heaven, right? But, since Heaven is the greatest place ever, why would Jesus remove him from there just to bring him back to Earth, just so he die a second time? Why would he do that to someone whom he cared so much about?

Now, I understand that Jesus could have brought him back to ease his and others' grief. But Jesus isn't a selfish person, and this is a selfish act. Jesus also has shown that he does not use his power for personal benefit, such as when Satan tempted him.

This is why I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die. Thoughts?

Note: Please don't see things like Jesus and God and stuff doesn't exist. No one cares and this discussion is based on their existence. If you don't believe they exist, but still wanna discuss, then pretend they exist, pretend this is from an anime/manga.

1. Jesus' tears did not bring Lazarus back. Jesus' did a miracle. A miracle back then could have been cpr for all we know.
2. Jesus was a friend of sinners.(don't remember exact bible quote look it up if you don't believe me) Just because Lazarus was his friend does not mean he was going to go to heaven. Furthermore, no human can be "holy" enough to get into heaven. Man can only enter the kingdom of God through Jesus. Thus making this point completely invalid.
3. I do not claim to know why Jesus brought Lazarus back to life. I am not God. However, I do know that He does all things for a very important reason.
4. If Jesus (the King of Kings) was selfish (assuming you believe Jesus is God in the flesh) then why would he have given us free will? Why would he have not just made the entire universe solely to worship him every day for the rest of eternity? Jesus is not selfish.

Try to read things in context from now on brother.

 

[DELTA704]

hey so can i ask you something ( off topic but i really wanted to know ) .. does the bible say anything specific about ghost or human spirits. You know like paranormal phenomenon? (or maybe people who didn't cross over)

Yes it is called angels and demons man

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Going to heaven has nothing to do with how holy you are.

 

[Altaneen]

[video=youtube;hnd_JOp-eBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnd_JOp-eBE[/video]

This sums it up nicely. xd