Vandenre1ch
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This is why I try to avoid debating against Riker...its a guaranteed win for him.....I need to preserve my dignity somehow....
[Discussion] Who is the strongest Yonko?
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Punk Hazard
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Going by pure clash portrayals, Vista is at the very least in the same tier as the likes of Mihawk, the Yonko and Admirals. That defeats Toshi's argument that Mihawk is weaker than Shanks on the basis that Shanks would never be reduced to clashing with someone of Vista's level/tier.
If this is dismissed, then it means clash portrayal is faulty, dismantling the core of Toshi's argument as to why Mihawk isn't on Shanks' level as well.
What if I were to argue that vista isnt on the same level as marco? (not sure how I argue that) Or that kizaru isnt on the same level as akainu because marco touched kizaru but not akainu? Becasue shanks is on akainus level by clash as he was able to block and therefore touch akainu but vista was not and vista=mihawk by clash and therefore mihawk=vista=marco=kizaru<shanks=akainu. I would rather throw away the clash argument because mihawk was likely holding back a bit and becasue even though kizaru has similar portrayal to akinu due to wb, akainu has better haki as seen, and akainu is the one that injured WB most severely.
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Actually, Marco touched them pretty much the same. A Haki embued kick that did nothing to Kizaru. Also remember that Marco used talons when he attacked Akainu, but used his normal leg on Kizaru, so one is slashing damage which would cause Akainu to revert to his magma state automatically due to ignoring Haki(even as this renders it ineffective), and one is blunt which wouldn't have any effect on his body transforming into his element or not when Haki is used.
Sure but that still puts marco above vista right because even his primary form of attack couldnt touch akainu. Another way out of this is to say that shanks=WB because they clashed at tied blows. But like I said there are too many contradictions here.
What about Conquerors haki as an argument as to why shanks is>mihawk? I personally wouldnt consider it a weapon to be used in a sword duel if you wanted it to be a show of swordsmanship because it can physically do damage without the use of a weapon, and if you were to believe Vandenreich it can even cause storms which can do damage as well. I would think that if mihawk and shanks were having a duel shanks wouldnt use this. I might also say that this is why mihawks didnt want to fight shanks later (even though shanks still seems confident enough to duel mihawk as shown on that island very early on) And as an unlikely to win argument I might also say that shanks losing his left arm made miahwk think he is no longer worth as a swordsmen and claimed the title but in reality it didnt slow shanks at all.
I actually laughed at this out loud. C'mon now.
As for the latter part those fodder pirates were probably not even allowed to meet Shanks himself lol. Indeed Mihawk did have the equal or even better portrayal back then, but as soon as Shanks was introduced as a Yonkou all that changed. Oda I think wanted us to know the difference between a Yonkou and the other pirates.
haha do you realize this only works for characters that we have nothing else to go by? You obviously use feats over portrayal when you have enough of them. Especially when they cancel out. Marco even after that attack showed he was tough for Akainu, since he was the one who defended Luffy, Akainu had to stop.
Vista has shown nothing but stalemating Mihawk and being an ant infront of Akainu, but its alright for Marco since we already know he lacks attack power, when he cheapshotted Aokiji, Aokiji suffered no damages from what we could see. So that was nothing new. Vista on the other hand cannot regenerate, what makes him so special if he can't even manage to tickle an Admiral with a cheapshot? Whats his worth, Marco's is his defense.
With guys like Shanks and Mihawk the only thing we have is portrayal. It says a lot when a supposed Yonkou lvl guy is stalemating with Vista who we all know AT BEST is weaker than Jozu. If Oda wanted he could have shown atleast Vista struggle a bit to keep up (look at Sabo vs Fujitora as a reference, Sabo should be > Vista, Fujitora wasn't going all out either yet we could still tell who was superior), yet it seemed as though Vista was not even taking this seriously. Remember this is a guy who is possibly on Ace's level.
I honestly think Post time skip Luffy would beat Vista...Doflamingo feels more like he is on Jozu's level.
It also says a lot when a supposed Yonkou level is treating Crocodile like a real threat.
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What is laughable into thinking 2 Shichibukais know each other? You're overplaying that Crocodile event when actually nothing happened. If a previous partner did something you didn't predicted, the first thing you'd do is question yourself/himself
You're using indirect portrayal as a convenience, yet saying a direct portrayal between Mihawk and Shanks doesn't work despite him already being a yonko at that point?
haha c'mon now really? You think they were partners?? Did you see what Jimbei did to Moriah? Thats what Mihawk should have done to Croc.
You think Mihawk started to have a sentimental moment with Croc lool I'm actually laughing right now. The lengths people will go. Im just sitting here hoping Mihawk just redeems himself, but im not gonna deny this stuff by making up fanfic now.
You make a very fair point. But post Yonkou introduction we have Shanks straight up with the superior portrayal, I don't know what else to tell you.
I go by the latest thing I see from a character. I thought Doflamingo was on Mihawks level during the war they had similar portrayal, but than post skip we saw how Kaidou was portrayed to shit on Doffy. So I immediately switched my position on Doflamingo even prior to Luffys fight. Mihawk is no exception for me.
To me the war really made Mihawk look bad prior to the War I thought Mihawk was easily on Shanks level after the War I was questioning it.
1.Whole dialogue with the reach (meaning him as a Shichibukai being able to reach WB a Yonkou), and then access denied meaning his sword doesn't reach WB.
2.Daz Bones blocking attacks
3.Croc stopping him from going after Luffy.
4.Stalemating Vista who is possibly Ace level, at best significantly weaker than Jozu.
The war just wasn't good for Mihawk no matter how you look at it.
And he did that after how much time? Wasn't there an introduction point where both discussed with one another before engaging each other in a fight?
What are you even talking about. Are we reading different mangas? I repeat. Nothing happened between Crocodile and Mihawk for it to be a fanfic. You create fanfic on something that happened, not on something that never happened like in the Crocodile-Mihawk fight you're seemingly describing. All what we saw is Mihawk blocking Crocodile's surprised attack when he was aiming at Luffy, questioning himself by Crocodile's presence when Luffy and others were walking away meantime. Besides that we don't know what happened since the next time we see Crocodile, he is somewhere else. He could have flied away for all we know. Someone else could have saved him. Mihawk may have spared him. They may have had a discussion concerning the past. You can't use something that happened off-panel as an argument since again, you don't know what happened. I was just giving an example of the most likiest that would have happened
The yonko were already indirectly introduced back them, just not by name, so it doesn't really matter
How were their portrayal similar?
- First Marine HQ+Shichibukais meeting, Doflamingo is highlighted similarly to Kuma with Oda setting Mihawk apart, entering alone, talking like the boss infront of Doflamingo, Kuma, Sengoku and co with everyone saying he is the last one they expected to come
- Doflamingo excited to see Mihawk fight in Marineford
- Doflamingo not highlighted in the chapter "conflict at the summit" where Kuzan, WB, Mihawk, Marco, Kizaru, Jozu were the highlighted ones
- Doflamingo put in similar light with Kuma, Moria and Hancock against Oars and the new world pirates with only Mihawk left apart from the other shichibukais
- Mihawk pulled the most destructive feats in the war(the one against WB or the iceberg feat) with casual attacks, only behind WB and despite all this and after countless hours of battle, didn't even shed a single drop of sweat or dust on his body. The iceberg feat for example completely shitted on Jozu's ice throwing feat(that strained him), said ice attack where Akainu was forced to intervene and destroy with one of his strongest named attack used on panel. Doflamingo didn't show things even close to that, yet he ended with few marks on his body
- Mihawk and the admirals are the only ones who actually clashed with top yonko commanders(Marco-Kizaru, Kuzan-Jozu, Mihawk-Vista, Mihawk-Jozu)
Literally the only thing you can argue in favor of Doflamingo is his portrayal comparatively to Jozu, but you'd do that only if you look at it superficially without actually thinking through. I actually think Jozu is stronger than Doflamingo despite that portrayal. He was just stopped by a hax move when caught off-guard and anyone can be caught by hax moves(Luffy-Caesar, BB pirates vs Magellan are perfect examples of that). He didn't even directly fought any of the top commanders.
Already explained this. That part was to show that top WB commanders weren't disposed to leave enemies to reach the king first. Oda said that through Marco's words. It had nothing to do with denial. The same Kizaru that was "denied" access at that moment left multiple holes on WB's body later on the arc(albeit heavily wounded WB), same Kizaru who had similar portrayal with Akainu(who took advantage on WB due to illness), same Kizaru who had similar portrayal to Marco in their clash, same Marco who had similar portrayal to Vista against Akainu
He used a pretty weak attack, so i don't see the point
He blocked Crocodile and nothing else happened, or rather nothing else that we can know happened. Also i feel the need to point out Crocodile interrupted Akainu at some point
Vista was highlighted similarly to Marco against Akainu. I don't see Ace at that level, but let's not forget Ace himself blocked an attack from Kuzan
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Got damn I knew you were building an essay, when I saw you browsing. I really don't feel like debating this its too vague, but ill see hold on.
The Vista exception is a huge stain on Mihawk's resume as of now.
Not trying was besides the point anyways.
What reason would Mihawk have to not try aiming a slash at the worlds strongest man?
The Vista exception is a huge stain on Mihawk's resume as of now.
Not trying was besides the point anyways.
He tried against WB and his slash was blocked by Jozu the person with the best defence in the show.
Him not trying against Vsita doesn't mean anything, he could of been trying ad not going all out and if anything all it does is make Vista look good, not Mihawk looking bad.
Him not trying is the point, you can't discredit him when he's putting no effort into a attack.
lol I am not dealing with this. Its the same stuff over and over, I honestly dont care if anybody else quotes me, just do so after you've read everything prior because I've already said what Im gonna say to you now.
Bogard Ill take a read I cant promise a reply.
Bogard Ill take a read I cant promise a reply.
I didn't write the essay expecting a reply on your part. I wrote the essay to explain Mihawk's portrayal during that war regardless if you wanted to read or reply or not. I still felt the need to explain and i even think i left important points because i rushed it, but no matter
Also the Vista thing only lasted mere moments according to Impel Down prisoners. I don't see any top tiers besides Primebeard and Roger maybe defeating Vista in mere moments at least without giving their all like Mihawk was doing
What you're doing right now is looking too deep into things. I'm looking at things from a strict portrayal standpoint, you can call it superficial almost.
Anyways I read the post I have some things I need to point out again.
1.Jimbe attacked Moriah on panel, thats all Mihawk needed to do regardless of time. He did it to Daz there is no excuse for him to stop at Croc if he's chasing after Luffy. Sure Croc could have flown away I dont even think they fought cause if they did realistically Croc should have gotten stomped, thats besides the point. Also regarding Croc stopping Akainu, again ON PANEL Oda showed him being backed by the WB pirates, reason Akainu was halted for a bit. All he had to do was show this against Mihawk, just show some sort of backup.
2.You're right Mihawk had better portrayal. I was just referring to them not taking the war serious and leaving with no injuries. Plus Doflamingo using Jozu as a stool was a big one in Doffy's favour, but the others always made a big deal when Mihawk made a move showing that he is indeed in his own tier.
3. Still disagree about Kizaru because Mihawk specifically was a moment of testing the difference between two ranks. Kizaru was simply going for the kill. Mihawk wanted to see how far they are from WB, which has a deeper meaning behind it.
4.For Daz, once again its not about putting effort its just not a good look on panel.
5.Vista was highlighted similar to Marco in that panel yes. But you gotta understand he was never going 1v1 against an Admiral only Jozu and Marco were shown to be capable of that.
Ace tried and he got dummied. Vista didn't even try all he has is that one cheapshot which led to nothing. Then when you see Akainu against the WB pirates Vista is no different from Croc or the other commanders, he's just in the background its Marco who is the one working
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because quite honestly he is the only one capable.Also I see most top tiers casually dealing with Vista in mere moments.
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You're the one saying he shouldn't have been stopped by Crocodile when chasing Luffy. I pointed out Crocodile's interruption because he actually stopped Akainu into retrieving Luffy. Crocodile accomplished the goal of Luffy, Jinbei managing to escape all by himself. What happened after doesn't matter. Besides, Akainu had considerably better portrayal than everyone during that war except WB. Oda made that because he wanted Akainu's introduction to be noteworthy, but more importantly, he wanted to highlight one of Luffy's final opponent if not his final opponent in the greatest way possible. It served it's purpose. Even his own rival(Kuzan) had significantly less portrayal compared to him, even less than Kizaru infact yet later, he gave him the fight of his life
The problem like i've said is that Doflamingo didn't actually fight Jozu by himself. he used a hax technique that has nothing to do in a physical, speed, endurance, combat evaluation and that even happened during an off-guard sequence. It's like hyping Onigomu for scuffing Marco or Sugar for one shotting Kyros. It's not a good way to look at it
How is it different when Oda highlighted both at the same time? Which rank are you talking about? Shichibukai isn't even a rank to begin with. It goes from Buggy to Mihawk. The way i read it, it was more as if Mihawk was trying to compare government forces to WB by putting himself as the reference.
On panel look depends on the amount of effort put into an attack
Vista wasn't portrayed differently to Marco and Jozu. The only difference is that his admiral level opponent was Mihawk. Mihawk and the admirals already had their hype and this time they were used to hype other people and the reason it's even Vista who Oda chose to face Mihawk is because he is a swordsman and Oda always has the tendancy to put swordsmen versus swordsmen likely because they complement better with each other, just like how he placed Fujitora vs Zoro during this arc eventhough Luffy is stronger
Wb commanders failing to damage Akainu or even stop him:
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When Vista and Marco attack however, they do damage him(yes he was damaged, hence the pain exclammation "Nghh.... Ahhhh" just not significantly) with Akainu acknowledging their annoyance(which is a compliment when talking about someone as arrogant as Akainu):
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And even push him back during Ace's final moments(Akainu was infront of Ace, yet he sudenly miles away):
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Bloodlusted Akainu couldn't do that:
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AZnd yes Vista was fighting alongside Marco there. You could see magma explosion on the middle with Vista holding his sword on a panel near Marco's on the left. They were fighting off panel, yet Vista came out unscathedThat was not Vista in the last panel lol...just some random fodder.
And what I meant wasn't that they deal him meaning defeat him, I mean they can casually show who is superior, like if they were fighting Vista would probably look like he's getting overwhelmed while Akainu puts hardly any effort.
I do like your swordsman vs swordsman point and that Mihawk was the Admiral for Vista. Never looked at it that way, but that also slightly hints Admirals > Mihawk.
And what I meant wasn't that they deal him meaning defeat him, I mean they can casually show who is superior, like if they were fighting Vista would probably look like he's getting overwhelmed while Akainu puts hardly any effort.
I do like your swordsman vs swordsman point and that Mihawk was the Admiral for Vista. Never looked at it that way, but that also slightly hints Admirals > Mihawk.
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