[Discussion] What is the most unrealistic talk no jutsu in the series?

Lukecetion

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None of them where "unrealistic" in any regard. They sure are idealistic, but not unrealistic.

Obito didn't give into the talk-no-jutsu, he refused it straight out and even then he regretted his actions after listening to Naruto's story from Kakashi. This is because Obito never actually believed in what he was doing which is why he was constantly testing Naruto and trying to change Naruto like he had changed himself, in a way to justify his actions to himself. Hence he never really believed in them, so it stands to reason that if he was unable to justify his actions anymore, he would change.

Neji was a boy so focused around that destiny is something you cannot escape and that those with power effectively write the destiny of others. Comparing this to the Branch Family of the Hyuuga and his own family. He saw Naruto struggle and lose until Narut overcome his previous limits and bested him despite his weakness. Hence he was proven wrong, it stands to reason that he would change.

Gaara was fed up with a world that didn't want him and as a result isolated himself. He didn't care for anyone and wanted to see the world burn effectively. Yet he longed for love and friendship that he once had a fragment off. He wanted that no matter what, but instead of seeking it he hid from it, fearing it. When Naruto extended his hand in friendship despite all that Gaara had done, he realized that its not to late to build connections with other people. Because he always wanted to do that, it stands to reason that he would change.

Nagato lived a life of strife and in the end saw no other way to make peace but to make people understand others through pain. His entire monologue about "Hatred breeds hatred" and only after feeling the pain of loss would people understand this makes some sense, but is also flawed. He spouts nonsense about "hatred bringing hatred" yet thinks the world can only understand each other through pain. But people who lose someone feel pain, and when they act out of revenge the person who made them feel pain will also feel pain. That is the only flaw with his logic, yet he seems to apply this more to "the survivors" of such strife rather than the actor of it.

Because of that, because he believed that the survivors of pain would understand it and not further the hatred at some point he went ahead with his plan. In this regard Naruto challenges his notion by not seeking revenge and forgiving him, understanding his pain and agony without wanting to seek revenge. In other words what Naruto was doing was proving Nagato somewhat right in his actions, albeit not entirely. Admitting that he might not have been entirely correction, he gives into Naruto.

Sasuke (as explained by himself) always loved people and held them very deeply to his heart. He really did care for Team 7 as family. Though he was scared of these emotions and the pain that might come with them if he were to lose them. So he tried to distance himself from them in an attempt to avoid the risks. This is why Sasuke was hard to turn because its not that he disagreed, in-fact he probably agreed more than Naruto himself. But his choice to ignore what he knew to be true is far stronger than to delude yourself that its wrong. Sasuke understood family, he understood friendship and love and didn't try to lie about them not being important.

It was exactly because it was important that he decided to distance himself from it. Which is why even after their fight he asks Naruto why he would go so far for him. What in the world made Naruto give up everything, even his arm for his friend? In the flashbacks of the two we get the answer which Sasuke later explains. Naruto's reply is that while losing someone to death is hard, at least at that point the person in question would be dead. But in Sasuke's case the person isn't dead and yet they are lost and that hurts far more. Knowing that someone is in pain and not being able to help them hurts more than losing someone you love like family.

This is where Sasuke is not only shocked but starts to cry because he agrees with this notion. The flashbacks and Sasuke explanation shows this too. He was in agony because of it, but hid from it, he deluded himself that he didn't feel that pain and that was his mistake. He didn't accept it as a reality. When he does he agrees with Naruto and the two finally come to terms. Because of the way his character was written towards the end it makes sense that he would change his ways because he is a truly emotional person who always did agree with Naruto but he never thought about how others feel about him, but feared how he felt about others.

All in all, ever instance of "Talk-no-Jutsu" I can think of was with people who were in denial of something they were feeling. They didn't truly believe in their words and actions in the way they said. Because of this, when Naruto challenged their notion by proving them wrong, that you can fix something or change something, they were confronted with the fact that they were indeed wrong in their thinking and thus changed. As I said earlier, its idealistic, but not realistic. In the real world people wouldn't change like this, but more often than not it wouldn't be because they didn't personally want to change after such an event, but more because the world doesn't allow it.
 

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None of them where "unrealistic" in any regard. They sure are idealistic, but not unrealistic.

Obito didn't give into the talk-no-jutsu, he refused it straight out and even then he regretted his actions after listening to Naruto's story from Kakashi. This is because Obito never actually believed in what he was doing which is why he was constantly testing Naruto and trying to change Naruto like he had changed himself, in a way to justify his actions to himself. Hence he never really believed in them, so it stands to reason that if he was unable to justify his actions anymore, he would change.

Neji was a boy so focused around that destiny is something you cannot escape and that those with power effectively write the destiny of others. Comparing this to the Branch Family of the Hyuuga and his own family. He saw Naruto struggle and lose until Narut overcome his previous limits and bested him despite his weakness. Hence he was proven wrong, it stands to reason that he would change.

Gaara was fed up with a world that didn't want him and as a result isolated himself. He didn't care for anyone and wanted to see the world burn effectively. Yet he longed for love and friendship that he once had a fragment off. He wanted that no matter what, but instead of seeking it he hid from it, fearing it. When Naruto extended his hand in friendship despite all that Gaara had done, he realized that its not to late to build connections with other people. Because he always wanted to do that, it stands to reason that he would change.

Nagato lived a life of strife and in the end saw no other way to make peace but to make people understand others through pain. His entire monologue about "Hatred breeds hatred" and only after feeling the pain of loss would people understand this makes some sense, but is also flawed. He spouts nonsense about "hatred bringing hatred" yet thinks the world can only understand each other through pain. But people who lose someone feel pain, and when they act out of revenge the person who made them feel pain will also feel pain. That is the only flaw with his logic, yet he seems to apply this more to "the survivors" of such strife rather than the actor of it.

Because of that, because he believed that the survivors of pain would understand it and not further the hatred at some point he went ahead with his plan. In this regard Naruto challenges his notion by not seeking revenge and forgiving him, understanding his pain and agony without wanting to seek revenge. In other words what Naruto was doing was proving Nagato somewhat right in his actions, albeit not entirely. Admitting that he might not have been entirely correction, he gives into Naruto.

Sasuke (as explained by himself) always loved people and held them very deeply to his heart. He really did care for Team 7 as family. Though he was scared of these emotions and the pain that might come with them if he were to lose them. So he tried to distance himself from them in an attempt to avoid the risks. This is why Sasuke was hard to turn because its not that he disagreed, in-fact he probably agreed more than Naruto himself. But his choice to ignore what he knew to be true is far stronger than to delude yourself that its wrong. Sasuke understood family, he understood friendship and love and didn't try to lie about them not being important.

It was exactly because it was important that he decided to distance himself from it. Which is why even after their fight he asks Naruto why he would go so far for him. What in the world made Naruto give up everything, even his arm for his friend? In the flashbacks of the two we get the answer which Sasuke later explains. Naruto's reply is that while losing someone to death is hard, at least at that point the person in question would be dead. But in Sasuke's case the person isn't dead and yet they are lost and that hurts far more. Knowing that someone is in pain and not being able to help them hurts more than losing someone you love like family.

This is where Sasuke is not only shocked but starts to cry because he agrees with this notion. The flashbacks and Sasuke explanation shows this too. He was in agony because of it, but hid from it, he deluded himself that he didn't feel that pain and that was his mistake. He didn't accept it as a reality. When he does he agrees with Naruto and the two finally come to terms. Because of the way his character was written towards the end it makes sense that he would change his ways because he is a truly emotional person who always did agree with Naruto but he never thought about how others feel about him, but feared how he felt about others.

All in all, ever instance of "Talk-no-Jutsu" I can think of was with people who were in denial of something they were feeling. They didn't truly believe in their words and actions in the way they said. Because of this, when Naruto challenged their notion by proving them wrong, that you can fix something or change something, they were confronted with the fact that they were indeed wrong in their thinking and thus changed. As I said earlier, its idealistic, but not realistic. In the real world people wouldn't change like this, but more often than not it wouldn't be because they didn't personally want to change after such an event, but more because the world doesn't allow it.
Yeah I kinda agree, they all had flaws in them that made them vulnurable and they all fought against it alot, they didn't just submit to it directly.
 
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salamander uchiha

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What's your reasoning?
Gaara's because he was like Naruto and he wanted the same so it was believable.

Neji was partially believable because he thought Naruto could never beat him and then he did. He had created the concept of set in stone, yet came to realise not everything is.
 

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Gaara's because he was like Naruto and he wanted the same so it was believable.

Neji was partially believable because he thought Naruto could never beat him and then he did. He had created the concept of set in stone, yet came to realise not everything is.
Good points. I was also asking your reasoning on why you think the others were unrealistic.
 

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Good points. I was also asking your reasoning on why you think the others were unrealistic.
Nagato had tried Jiraiya's method and failed, he lost his family first then his friends. He had years to build up his convictions and ideals. He even went as far as exacting revenge on Konoha and then to suddenly get TnJ's by a story made no sense. Naruto's reasoning was sort of childish, imo.

Obito, because Naruto magically entered his mind and made him question his conviction. Obito who had gone through all that(Nagato and more) to become the JJ, just giving up in the end made no sense either. He had tried Naruto's path, he was Naruto, yet was failed by everybody. He went as far as wiping out his clan for his goals(broken all ties), but gave into Naruto.

Sasuke was the worst, but he was TnJd by Itachi and then manipulated by Hashirama. That was kind of pathetic, Naruto didn't really have to do much. However, nobody does a complete U turn like Sasuke did, he didn't even kill the oppressors of his clan(parents). They were still advising the Hokage, nothing had changed. I stayed Sasuke sucked it all up and became a loyal dog protecting the status quo. That's not realistic, not even close to realistic.
 

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Sasuke was the worst, but he was TnJd by Itachi and then manipulated by Hashirama. That was kind of pathetic, Naruto didn't really have to do much. However, nobody does a complete U turn like Sasuke did, he didn't even kill the oppressors of his clan(parents). They were still advising the Hokage, nothing had changed. I stayed Sasuke sucked it all up and became a loyal dog protecting the status quo. That's not realistic, not even close to realistic.
I think Sasuke's revolution plan got abandoned too quickly for it to be a true plan. It seemed like the only reason it existed was to justify Naruto and Sasuke's final clash.

What's your opinion on Zabuza's TnJ? I think that was well-written because Haku's death affected Zabuza emotionally, making him see the error of his ways which Naruto ends up pointing out.
 

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Obito: a 30 years old adult would never give in to a 17 years old boy speech about being Hokage.

Obito may hay have not believed in any of his actions fully but people do that kind of thing everyday. People sacrificed themselves in the Bosnia fight for....things they didn't even know exactly what it was.
Although I did believe that Madara's actions towards him not exactly change him. He already had that hatred burning inside of him for being speechless in Konoha's society.

Madara: I didn't like the idea of him talking with Hashirama that nicely (in real life parameters). Hashirama was his killer and submitted to a system that he could've changed (a system that helped to kill Madara's family - specially the damyos). But of course, it's real for them to share a last talk about future etc.

Honourable mention - Sasuke: it doesn't make sense for him to rebel at the last moment. Although I understand the fact that he didn't want to rebel in the presence of Tobirama and Hashirama lol.

Nagato was a spineless boy lol.
 

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Sasuke was the worst, but he was TnJd by Itachi and then manipulated by Hashirama. That was kind of pathetic, Naruto didn't really have to do much. However, nobody does a complete U turn like Sasuke did, he didn't even kill the oppressors of his clan(parents). They were still advising the Hokage, nothing had changed. I stayed Sasuke sucked it all up and became a loyal dog protecting the status quo. That's not realistic, not even close to realistic.
I would say Sasuke's TnJ was close to being OK. We have a traumatized kid that had no answers for a long time and all of a sudden you finally find some answers, at his teenage years. If you think about it, he was smart to change course from the revenge route because he truly is a smart kid but since he is a teenager, he is still invested in his emotions.

Learning that your entire clan was planning to commit terrorism that could effectively kill not just your clan but Konoha too, it is moot point whether or not you should stop the revenge path. Especially the person whom you have idolized your entire childhood tells you his motivation as to why he betrayed the clan. Which is the sole reason why he even wanted to get answers from the hokages.

The events that lead up to the final fight of Naruto and Sasuke was stupid AF but I was glad it was not just TnJ. It was purely to see who was the most powerful out of the two. Like an extreme friendly bout. Even deadly but still friendly. Those two are weird.
 

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I think Sasuke's revolution plan got abandoned too quickly for it to be a true plan. It seemed like the only reason it existed was to justify Naruto and Sasuke's final clash.

What's your opinion on Zabuza's TnJ? I think that was well-written because Haku's death affected Zabuza emotionally, making him see the error of his ways which Naruto ends up pointing out.
Yes, it came across that way. It seemed as if Sasuke was not even into it rather he was testing himself. Even the dialogue build up didn't feel sincere. It was pretty much to justify the final fight.

Yes, Zabuza was well-written. I think in his case he was going to die anyway so chose to die with dignity and acknowledging the one who sacrifices himself for him.

I would say Sasuke's TnJ was close to being OK. We have a traumatized kid that had no answers for a long time and all of a sudden you finally find some answers, at his teenage years. If you think about it, he was smart to change course from the revenge route because he truly is a smart kid but since he is a teenager, he is still invested in his emotions.
It wasn't a smart move, his reasoning was sound. However, his change was too fast and uncalculated. He admits Konoha was to blame, but let's it all go and run as it. That makes no sense, the elders were still alive.

Learning that your entire clan was planning to commit terrorism that could effectively kill not just your clan but Konoha too, it is moot point whether or not you should stop the revenge path. Especially the person whom you have idolized your entire childhood tells you his motivation as to why he betrayed the clan. Which is the sole reason why he even wanted to get answers from the hokages.
Except it wasn't terrorism, and was a coup. And there was no guarantee it would affect Konoha as Danzo pointed out. He wanted to change, yet he did nothing to change it. Sasuke only idolised Itachi, because he wanted his father to acknowledge him. The same father who was trying to stop the oppression of the founding clan, the one that allowed other clans to live together. Sasuke was shown to be intelligent not one easily persuaded, and true to his goals, which is why this never made sense.

It was those who latched onto Tobirama's will and feared losing their power who justified it to themselves. The will Sasuke The same people are there advising Naruto, Konoha still gets wrecked, by Kawaki.

The events that lead up to the final fight of Naruto and Sasuke was stupid AF but I was glad it was not just TnJ. It was purely to see who was the most powerful out of the two. Like an extreme friendly bout. Even deadly but still friendly. Those two are weird.
Yeah, it was all about the final battle and any excuse to have it.
 

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Nagato had tried Jiraiya's method and failed, he lost his family first then his friends. He had years to build up his convictions and ideals. He even went as far as exacting revenge on Konoha and then to suddenly get TnJ's by a story made no sense. Naruto's reasoning was sort of childish, imo.
For the most part the people he talked down were those similar to him. The only one who wasn't was Neji. And it wasn't just words, Naruto always proved himself through his actions aswell. Which made things more impactful.

Nagato believed the Shinobi world was in a cycle of hatred and revenge. That Naruto would seek revenge against him for killing Jiraiya, Kakashi, Hinata, and villagers when he destroyed Konoha. Yet Naruto didn't. Naruto sought compromise. He wanted to understand him, rather than just condemn him for his actions. Settling things with violence.

As a result Nagato became open minded toward him. Shared his story, and was interested in his response. Jiraiya's teachings ended up making it through to Nagato, because Naruto, like himself in the past before hatred changed him, was the embodiment of Jiraiya's teachings that he (Nagato), used to respect before he sunk in despair.

The Akatsuki was a peaceful organization before Obito, Hanzo, and Danzo came along. Changing Nagato's course. Naruto reminded him of his roots. As someone who wasn't corrupted by hatred like he wass despite facing similar hardships, Nagato entrusted Naruto with the future.

Sasuke was the worst, but he was TnJd by Itachi and then manipulated by Hashirama. That was kind of pathetic, Naruto didn't really have to do much. However, nobody does a complete U turn like Sasuke did, he didn't even kill the oppressors of his clan(parents). They were still advising the Hokage, nothing had changed. I stayed Sasuke sucked it all up and became a loyal dog protecting the status quo. That's not realistic, not even close to realistic.
Already countered most of Sasuke's in the other thread. I'll post a link for those who are interested. Although don't click if you haven't seen Death Note.


They had the same goal but differing ways to achieve it. Naruto just convinced Sasuke to work with his comrades rather than try to handle everything alone.

Honourable mention - Sasuke: it doesn't make sense for him to rebel at the last moment. Although I understand the fact that he didn't want to rebel in the presence of Tobirama and Hashirama lol.
Sasuke formed his Revolution plan upon speaking to the Hokage. He needed to work with Naruto and the Alliance to beat Obito, Madara, and Kaguya when she unexpectedly appeared.

I think Sasuke's revolution plan got abandoned too quickly for it to be a true plan. It seemed like the only reason it existed was to justify Naruto and Sasuke's final clash.
Not really given it made complete sense given his development as explained above. It's fitting for him to lean towards protecting from the shadows.

After fighting Naruto he essentially modified his plan. Rather than work alone, he would work with allies when needed. Rather than become the common enemy to keep the villages united, he became the common enemy to keep the criminal underworld subdued (end of Boruto chapter 15).
 
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salamander uchiha

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For the most part the people he talked down were those similar to him. The only one who wasn't was Neji. And it wasn't just words, Naruto always proved himself through his actions aswell. Which made things more impactful.

Nagato believed the Shinobi world was in a cycle of hatred and revenge. That Naruto would seek revenge against him for killing Jiraiya, Kakashi, Hinata, and villagers when he destroyed Konoha. Yet Naruto didn't. Naruto sought compromise. He wanted to understand him, rather than just condemn him for his actions. Settling things with violence.

As a result Nagato became open minded toward him. Shared his story, and was interested in his response. Jiraiya's teachings ended up making it through to Nagato, because Naruto, like himself in the past before hatred changed him, was the embodiment of Jiraiya's teachings that he (Nagato), used to respect before he sunk in despair.

The Akatsuki was a peaceful organization before Obito, Hanzo, and Danzo came along. Changing Nagato's course. Naruto reminded him of his roots. As someone who wasn't corrupted by hatred like he wass despite facing similar hardships, Nagato entrusted Naruto with the future.



Already countered most of Sasuke's in the other thread. I'll post a link for those who are interested. Although don't click if you haven't seen Death Note.


They had the same goal but differing ways to achieve it. Naruto just convinced Sasuke to work with his comrades rather than try to handle everything alone.
This has already been addressed. The TnJ just weren't realistic so I won't repeat any of it.
As for Nagato knew the world was in this never ending cycle and he had a plan to break it. While Naruto's plan was.. There was no plan, in the end it was Tobi and Madara who brought the world together by becoming the common enemy, and having the power.

The problem with Nagato is he knew some seek revenge and others overlook. By Naruto not seeking revenge he didn't prove anything. It didn't bring him what he wanted, it didn't guarantee he could change anything, it was BS and true nonsense of an idealist. Nagato knew the world needed realism and idealism didn't work, because they were idealistic at one time. He was a grown adult who got BS TnJd just for plots sake, let's not pretend he didn't.

Sasuke wont be read dressed he became a cheap hoe moving from one side to another. He never changed anything even by working together. The elders were still there, their personalities and nothing had changed. If they had to massacre another clan they would gladly do it.
 

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Yes, it came across that way. It seemed as if Sasuke was not even into it rather he was testing himself. Even the dialogue build up didn't feel sincere. It was pretty much to justify the final fight.

Yes, Zabuza was well-written. I think in his case he was going to die anyway so chose to die with dignity and acknowledging the one who sacrifices himself for him.



It wasn't a smart move, his reasoning was sound. However, his change was too fast and uncalculated. He admits Konoha was to blame, but let's it all go and run as it. That makes no sense, the elders were still alive.
His aim was to change the corrupt Shinobi system. Things were clearly different post-war than they were pre-war. All the fighting that had led to so much turmoil had ceased. He needn't worry about the villages. What was a problem was the criminal underworld, which he dealt with.



Except it wasn't terrorism, and was a coup. And there was no guarantee it would affect Konoha as Danzo pointed out. He wanted to change, yet he did nothing to change it. Sasuke only idolised Itachi, because he wanted his father to acknowledge him. The same father who was trying to stop the oppression of the founding clan, the one that allowed other clans to live together. Sasuke was shown to be intelligent not one easily persuaded, and true to his goals, which is why this never made sense.

It was those who latched onto Tobirama's will and feared losing their power who justified it to themselves. The will Sasuke The same people are there advising Naruto, Konoha still gets wrecked, by Kawaki.



Yeah, it was all about the final battle and any excuse to have it.
How is it just an excuse when it was completely in character and fell in-line with the overall storytelling aswell? For hundreds of chapters Sasuke had been built up as an Anti-hero/Antagonist. By the end he was a culmination of Madara, Obito, Nagato, and Itachi. He formed a better plan for peace than them and went on to protect from the shadows. imgur.com/a/zYtqpL9
 

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His aim was to change the corrupt Shinobi system. Things were clearly different post-war than they were pre-war. All the fighting that had led to so much turmoil had ceased. He needn't worry about the villages. What was a problem was the criminal underworld, which he dealt with.


How is it just an excuse when it was completely in character and fell in-line with the overall storytelling aswell? For hundreds of chapters Sasuke had been built up as an Anti-hero/Antagonist. By the end he was a culmination of Madara, Obito, Nagato, and Itachi. He formed a better plan for peace than them and went on to protect from the shadows. imgur.com/a/zYtqpL9
You should jump off Sasuke's sack once in a while and actually consider the arguments from the neutral perspective.
 

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Yes, it came across that way. It seemed as if Sasuke was not even into it rather he was testing himself. Even the dialogue build up didn't feel sincere. It was pretty much to justify the final fight.

Yes, Zabuza was well-written. I think in his case he was going to die anyway so chose to die with dignity and acknowledging the one who sacrifices himself for him.



It wasn't a smart move, his reasoning was sound. However, his change was too fast and uncalculated. He admits Konoha was to blame, but let's it all go and run as it. That makes no sense, the elders were still alive.



Except it wasn't terrorism, and was a coup. And there was no guarantee it would affect Konoha as Danzo pointed out. He wanted to change, yet he did nothing to change it. Sasuke only idolised Itachi, because he wanted his father to acknowledge him. The same father who was trying to stop the oppression of the founding clan, the one that allowed other clans to live together. Sasuke was shown to be intelligent not one easily persuaded, and true to his goals, which is why this never made sense.

It was those who latched onto Tobirama's will and feared losing their power who justified it to themselves. The will Sasuke The same people are there advising Naruto, Konoha still gets wrecked, by Kawaki.



Yeah, it was all about the final battle and any excuse to have it.

Yeah it surely was rushed... What I hated the most is when Sasuke joined in on the fight and said "I'll be Hokage"
It was only tolerable because it came off as a joke then we realize that it was not. He really wanted to be Hokage but the Danzo kind. Basically Tobidara ruling with power and fear, which is basically the 2 people who killed off his clan and probably the sole reason why the Uchiha clan wanted to rebel.

I mean being the police will give you some heat but Tobidara really hated the Uchiha and that probably did not help quell the heat on the Uchiha. Danzo was pragmatic but extreme. Surely there was some other way for the Uchiha to not rebel and Konoha not fear the Uchiha. Danzo taking Shisui's eye really made sure that does not happen.

KA would have changed their minds. I mean Sasuke's dad and even Itachi said that Sasuke could have convinced them to not go through with it.

I think Kishi just really wanted the series to end. The entire Madara + Obito arc could have been an entire season's worth. Kaguya and kids as well. Could have also included Indra and Asura there too.

And Naruto v Sasuke could be made into 3 episode.
 
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