[VS] War Arc SM Naruto VS. War Arc KCM Naruto

[KidGamer65]

But I dont believe KCM boost in reaction comes only from his speed, as I said many times.

That's exactly where it comes from tbh, but that doesn't change the point. Do you not believe that SM reacts faster because of better sensing? You do. Christ.

?????

*Sigh*

Base Naruto gets a Sage Boost in speed and reactions and he gets sensing. So we can logically say that Sage Naruto>Base Naruto when it comes to reaction speed.

KCM is completely different boost, separate to Sage Naruto's boost. So you can't just say that since Naruto got better sensing, he reacts faster. Not when there is a whole separate mode thrown into the mix.

Mentioning this doesn't show me switching up my argument.

It does, because you are changing what you want to prove in the middle of the debate.

Except I never argued that it works automatically. Otherwise I wouldn't be using Juubito situation in my argument.

That only works for sensing. That doesn't prove that he's fast enough to react.

I was making a point. We concluded Naruto sensing = EMS perception.

Yup.

If this perception is able to tag Juubito why will Naruto's senses would never be able to react to KCM blitz.

Lol nope. Not the argument we are having. The argument is who reacts faster, not if KCM Naruto can blitz SM Naruto or if SM Naruto can progressively sense KCM Naruto's movements. SM Naruto being able to react to KCM Naruto's Shunshin doesn't mean he reacts faster than KCM Naruto. SM Naruto being able to track KCM Naruto's Shunshin doesn't mean he'll be able to react.

I never claimed that SM Naruto's sensing is ineffective on KCM Naruto's speed, I only said that he lacks the body speed to react in time.

bringing up reasons and examples to support my point doesn't mean I switch the argument.

Considering they prove something that isn't your premise, yes, that is you switching the argument up.

Ok.

1. Lol what? So I guess that means he was comparing it to his base form. Therefore SM is actually not have wider danger sensing and and being faster then KCM.

SM does, but he made no actual comparison.

2. Ok. But his perception eventually was able to tag Juubito so I think its still means something. Especially when arguing against characters with inferior movements then Juubito.

Yeah, but does that prove his reaction speed is faster than KCM Naruto's? No. It doesn't. Base Madara almost blitzed him. KCM Naruto reacted to V2 Ay. There's a clear difference.

@Bold: Which is? Cause that last time I check they both equally can tag Juubito and both equally couldn't react to being grabbed from him.

No, last time you checked BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke matched each other in reaction speed, not EMS Sasuke and SM Naruto.

1. Can you show me KN1 showing better reaction speed then KN0? Can you show me where base Naruto couldn't react to a move that KN0 could?

Already posted a whole thing about it earlier on. 2-Tomoe Sasuke was spanking Base Naruto, but when Naruto got KN0, he was able to react to Sasuke's attacks better, and got faster, thus he dominated him in CQC. 3-Tomoe Sasuke got the third tomoe, became able to react to Naruto's speed better, and spanked him in CQC. Naruto got KN1, and overwhelmed Sasuke. If Naruto's reaction speed didn't increase, he wouldn't be beating Sasuke in close combat in KN0.

2. Of course not, since he does have another form to perceive now.

What do you mean here?

SM senses, by feats helped, eventually tagged a much superior character then himself. So yea if the perception has that kind of feat then it definitely has that kind of reaction speed.

Wrong. 2-Tomoe Sasuke was tracking Lee, yet got blitzed by him.

So far I got that the characters reaction speed is always faster then their movement speed.

Uh-huh.

But of course you dont want me to get confuse by saying that moving faster actually has nothing to do with your reaction speed. Ok got it.

Yes.

KCM reaction increases his speed? I didn't know that, sorry.

Considering KCM Naruto reacts to people like V2 Ay, it's obvious that KCM increases his reaction speed.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

That's exactly where it comes from tbh, but that doesn't change the point. Do you not believe that SM reacts faster because of better sensing? You do. Christ.

So you want me to believe that Naruto's speed boost is the reason for his reaction despite, you telling me that you renounced the logic of faster you move the faster you react. I think my reading comp is getting better here.

*Sigh*

Base Naruto gets a Sage Boost in speed and reactions and he gets sensing. So we can logically say that Sage Naruto>Base Naruto when it comes to reaction speed.

KCM is completely different boost, separate to Sage Naruto's boost. So you can't just say that since Naruto got better sensing, he reacts faster. Not when there is a whole separate mode thrown into the mix.

So base on different boost determines the reaction speed of the character. The character can have a physical category superior to the other, doesn't mean it helps determine if its better in that physical category.

It does, because you are changing what you want to prove in the middle of the debate.

Everything you quoted doesn't conflict the points I have previously made.

That only works for sensing. That doesn't prove that he's fast enough to react.

Im aware of it doesn't prove he can react to Juubito, but its completely reasonable to use as an argument to inferior characters movements.

Lol nope. Not the argument we are having. The argument is who reacts faster, not if KCM Naruto can blitz SM Naruto or if SM Naruto can progressively sense KCM Naruto's movements. SM Naruto being able to react to KCM Naruto's Shunshin doesn't mean he reacts faster than KCM Naruto. SM Naruto being able to track KCM Naruto's Shunshin doesn't mean he'll be able to react.

I never claimed that SM Naruto's sensing is ineffective on KCM Naruto's speed, I only said that he lacks the body speed to react in time.

Same as above. @Bold

Considering they prove something that isn't your premise, yes, that is you switching the argument up.

I have always mentioned the comparison of perception in my argument. What did I say before and then switched it?

SM does, but he made no actual comparison.

That makes no sense. He is talking to himself, theres no other way to read the context.

Yeah, but does that prove his reaction speed is faster than KCM Naruto's? No. It doesn't. Base Madara almost blitzed him. KCM Naruto reacted to V2 Ay. There's a clear difference.

Not really. It took KM Naruto a couple of times to react to V2 Ay. While the whole War arc, he had difficulty reacting to moves slower too. So basing it on 1, inconsistent scenario, does not make a clear difference when it comes to reaction speed.

No, last time you checked BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke matched each other in reaction speed, not EMS Sasuke and SM Naruto.

Base on your inconsistent believe on what Kurama's chakra actually does when it comes to reaction, yea it makes sense that his superior senses is what made him tag Juubito.

Already posted a whole thing about it earlier on. 2-Tomoe Sasuke was spanking Base Naruto, but when Naruto got KN0, he was able to react to Sasuke's attacks better, and got faster, thus he dominated him in CQC. 3-Tomoe Sasuke got the third tomoe, became able to react to Naruto's speed better, and spanked him in CQC. Naruto got KN1, and overwhelmed Sasuke. If Naruto's reaction speed didn't increase, he wouldn't be beating Sasuke in close combat in KN0.

I re read the fight to see what you were talking about. 2T Sasuke was = to Naruto until Naruto felt distress when he realized Sasuke really wanted to kill him. Sasuke use Katon as a decoy to end the fight. There wasn't a problem with reactions from each other. KN0, as I read, was spanking Sasuke but there was no sign where, during the spanking, Naruto gain a reaction boost. In fact KN1 fail to react to Katon, thus shield itself with chakra, which base Naruto can react and move away. Obviously KN1 could of if he wanted to, but the point is it completely shows no sign of reaction boost.

Plus this fight clear shows that better perception shows better reaction. Naruto w/Kurama speed>Sasuke that whole fight.

What do you mean here?

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Wrong. 2-Tomoe Sasuke was tracking Lee, yet got blitzed by him.

Because his perception wasn't good enough. Can 3 tomoe track lee and successfully react better? Thats basically my argument.

Considering KCM Naruto reacts to people like V2 Ay, it's obvious that KCM increases his reaction speed.

Your not making your mind on how or which part of the chakra makes his reaction speed. You dont want me to believe his speed, and yet honestly told me it is. You want me to believe its just is base on feats of reacting to a faster character.

I dont know

 

[makosheva7]

IMO SM Naruto does have the capability of reacting to KCM Naruto's attacks at a distance that isn't less than 10 metres... So theoretically SM Naruto's stategy would be to keep his distance so he can react. I mean the sensing itself let's his brain know ahead of time that an attack is coming in a particular place, and therefore he starts moving to counter.

Saying the time interval for KCM Naruto to blitz SM Naruto at 50 m (typical reasonable starting distance) is smaller than the time it takes for SM Naruto to make the appropriate counter is kind of dumb in my opinion.

 

[KidGamer65]

So you want me to believe that Naruto's speed boost is the reason for his reaction despite, you telling me that you renounced the logic of faster you move the faster you react. I think my reading comp is getting better here.

Oh christ...

Naruto getting a speed and reaction speed boost from his Kyuubi chakra doesn't mean that the faster you move, the faster you react. Lol. No, it's not getting better. It's getting worse.

If Naruto himself gets a boost in speed, obviously he'll react faster, since you can't react slower than you move, makes no sense. But that doesn't mean that you can compare EVERYBODY's reaction speed by using the "the faster you move, the faster you react" logic. Hence why BSM Naruto is so much faster than Sasuke, but reacts on par with Sasuke.

So base on different boost determines the reaction speed of the character

Yes. KCM Naruto gets a different boost than SM Naruto. The only way to see who has the faster reaction speed is to compare their feats, not by who can sense better. That makes no sense.

The character can have a physical category superior to the other, doesn't mean it helps determine if its better in that physical category.

Yeah, if I'm understanding this correctly.

Everything you quoted doesn't conflict the points I have previously made.

It changes what you are trying to prove. That's the point.

Im aware of it doesn't prove he can react to Juubito, but its completely reasonable to use as an argument to inferior characters movements.

No, it's unreasonable to say his reaction speed is faster than KCM Naruto's because he can track faster things, even though sensing faster things isn't proof that he can react to them faster than his KCM counterpart.

I have always mentioned the comparison of perception in my argument. What did I say before and then switched it?

That makes no sense. He is talking to himself, theres no other way to read the context.

Whatever you say, but it's not going to change my point.

Not really. It took KM Naruto a couple of times to react to V2 Ay.

1. If this were true, it'd be irrelevant.

2. False. I suggest you re-read. KCM Naruto was matching Ay in speed to begin with, but Ay was in V1. Then Ay powered up to V2, and Naruto reacted to it on the first go and evaded using his top speed Shunshin. So no, it only took him one try to react and outspeed max speed Ay.

While the whole War arc, he had difficulty reacting to moves slower too.

Where?

So basing it on 1, inconsistent scenario, does not make a clear difference when it comes to reaction speed.

Depending on what you show me, neither 1 nor 2 are going to be the answer.

Base on your inconsistent believe on what Kurama's chakra actually does when it comes to reaction, yea it makes sense that his superior senses is what made him tag Juubito.

Lol. Superior sensing let him tag Juubito. SM Naruto's reaction speed is not as fast as BSM Naruto's.

I re read the fight to see what you were talking about. 2T Sasuke was = to Naruto until Naruto felt distress when he realized Sasuke really wanted to kill him. Sasuke use Katon as a decoy to end the fight. There wasn't a problem with reactions from each other. KN0, as I read, was spanking Sasuke but there was no sign where, during the spanking, Naruto gain a reaction boost. In fact KN1 fail to react to Katon, thus shield itself with chakra, which base Naruto can react and move away. Obviously KN1 could of if he wanted to, but the point is it completely shows no sign of reaction boost.

My bad. Curse Mark 2-Tomoe Sasuke was spanking Naruto.

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If they were on par there, Sasuke wouldn't have blindsided him in the first page (even with Katon as a distraction) nor would he have done so with no reaction in the second page. That is a reaction issue on Naruto's spot.

Lol if KN0 Naruto got no boost in reaction speed, Sasuke would still be slapping him around w/ no reaction on Naruto's part just like he was before he went Kyuubi Mode.

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-Naruto reacts to Chidori in KN0 despite getting slapped around w/ no reaction before using Kurama's chakra.

-Naruto shitting on him in Taijutsu is due to a boost in reaction speed. That's how all combat works.

Plus this fight clear shows that better perception shows better reaction. Naruto w/Kurama speed>Sasuke that whole fight.

Naruto being faster than Sasuke doesn't prove that better perception=better reaction in the sense that KCM Naruto would react slower than SM Naruto because his sensing is not as good.

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Oh, but that's obviously not why his reaction speed has jumped from what it was to Base Level, to reacting to people like V2 Ay.

Because his perception wasn't good enough. Can 3 tomoe track lee and successfully react better? Thats basically my argument.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. His eyes could see him. There wasn't anything wrong with his perception. Lee clearly stated that. His body was the issue. That Sasuke could've gotten 3-Tomoe and he still would've been slapped around, because seeing Lee wasn't an issue. His body was too slow to react.

Can 3-Tomoe VoTE Sasuke react to Lee? Obviously, but VoTE Sasuke's capabilities are a good tier above what they were right before that arc, and his physical capabilities in Chunnin Exams Arc shit on his physical capabilities against Rock Lee.

Your not making your mind on how or which part of the chakra makes his reaction speed.

What in the world are you talking about? Which part? What is that supposed to mean? KCM increases his movement and reaction speed, just like all Jinchuuriki chakra does for every single Jinchuuriki.

You dont want me to believe his speed, and yet honestly told me it is.

Not sure what you are talking about.

You want me to believe its just is base on feats of reacting to a faster character.

That's what EVERYTHING is based on. Feats. Naruto's overall speed increased when he got Kyuubi's chakra. No reason why it wouldn't here. Naruto reacts to faster people in KCM than he does in SM, no reason to claim that SM has better reaction speed.



Not to mention you've failed to provide evidence backing your claim that the only reason KCM gave him a boost in reaction speed was because of his Malice Sensing. At this point, it's me feeding you evidence proving you wrong, and you trying your hardest to prove it wrong.

This is getting tiresome.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Oh christ...

Naruto getting a speed and reaction speed boost from his Kyuubi chakra doesn't mean that the faster you move, the faster you react. Lol. No, it's not getting better. It's getting worse.

If Naruto himself gets a boost in speed, obviously he'll react faster, since you can't react slower than you move, makes no sense. But that doesn't mean that you can compare EVERYBODY's reaction speed by using the "the faster you move, the faster you react" logic. Hence why BSM Naruto is so much faster than Sasuke, but reacts on par with Sasuke.

Ok

Yes. KCM Naruto gets a different boost than SM Naruto. The only way to see who has the faster reaction speed is to compare their feats, not by who can sense better. That makes no sense.

Ok

Yeah, if I'm understanding this correctly.

Ok

It changes what you are trying to prove. That's the point.

Beating around the bush. You wont tell me exactly. Thats fine, Imma drop this point for less writing next time.

No, it's unreasonable to say his reaction speed is faster than KCM Naruto's because he can track faster things, even though sensing faster things isn't proof that he can react to them faster than his KCM counterpart.

Ok.

Whatever you say, but it's not going to change my point.

What was your point of saying "there was no direct comparison with Naruto's SM statement" again?

1. If this were true, it'd be irrelevant.

2. False. I suggest you re-read. KCM Naruto was matching Ay in speed to begin with, but Ay was in V1. Then Ay powered up to V2, and Naruto reacted to it on the first go and evaded using his top speed Shunshin. So no, it only took him one try to react and outspeed max speed Ay.

I didn't mean to write V2. My point was Naruto face Ay's speed many times before gaining one of the best reactions feats. That isn't fair to say, SM one-turn of Madara makes that final conclusion.

Where?

Basically the fight with Edo Paths
Fight with removing Obito's Mask

Pretty sure there might be more but that enough, since these were long fights.

Depending on what you show me, neither 1 nor 2 are going to be the answer.

Ok

Lol. Superior sensing let him tag Juubito. SM Naruto's reaction speed is not as fast as BSM Naruto's.

Ok.

My bad. Curse Mark 2-Tomoe Sasuke was spanking Naruto.

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If they were on par there, Sasuke wouldn't have blindsided him in the first page (even with Katon as a distraction) nor would he have done so with no reaction in the second page. That is a reaction issue on Naruto's spot.

Again Naruto was in distress from those scenes, his intentions werent the same so it threw him off balance

Lol if KN0 Naruto got no boost in reaction speed, Sasuke would still be slapping him around w/ no reaction on Naruto's part just like he was before he went Kyuubi Mode.

No Naruto's boost was superior due to what Sasuke couldnt perceive anymore.

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-Naruto reacts to Chidori in KN0 despite getting slapped around w/ no reaction before using Kurama's chakra.

-Naruto shitting on him in Taijutsu is due to a boost in reaction speed. That's how all combat works.

No nothing shows reaction boost. Sasuke was able to react to both KN0 and KN1 movements boost with 3T (no CS). KN1 was tricky only because the chakra itself moved on its own.

Naruto being faster than Sasuke doesn't prove that better perception=better reaction in the sense that KCM Naruto would react slower than SM Naruto because his sensing is not as good.

Unless there is someone who has the perception level to react to KCM NAruto

Oh, but that's obviously not why his reaction speed has jumped from what it was to Base Level, to reacting to people like V2 Ay.

Why not?

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. His eyes could see him. There wasn't anything wrong with his perception. Lee clearly stated that. His body was the issue. That Sasuke could've gotten 3-Tomoe and he still would've been slapped around, because seeing Lee wasn't an issue. His body was too slow to react.

Can 3-Tomoe VoTE Sasuke react to Lee? Obviously, but VoTE Sasuke's capabilities are a good tier above what they were right before that arc, and his physical capabilities in Chunnin Exams Arc shit on his physical capabilities against Rock Lee.

Sasuke 3T faced 2 boost levels from Naruto and reacted to both. So Im sure there was a huge gap to what 2T and 3T can perceive

What in the world are you talking about? Which part? What is that supposed to mean? KCM increases his movement and reaction speed, just like all Jinchuuriki chakra does for every single Jinchuuriki.


Not sure what you are talking about.

The reaction argument is base on how its interpreted so far.

That's what EVERYTHING is based on. Feats. Naruto's overall speed increased when he got Kyuubi's chakra. No reason why it wouldn't here. Naruto reacts to faster people in KCM than he does in SM, no reason to claim that SM has better reaction speed.

Ok, but Im also showing the inconsistency of KCM reactions that makes SM Naruto's statement valid, as to why it would be superior in that category.

Not to mention you've failed to provide evidence backing your claim that the only reason KCM gave him a boost in reaction speed was because of his Malice Sensing. At this point, it's me feeding you evidence proving you wrong, and you trying your hardest to prove it wrong.

This is getting tiresome.

The evidence isnt the problem its the interpretation on why the scans support your claims then mine.

 

[KidGamer65]

Beating around the bush. You wont tell me exactly. Thats fine, Imma drop this point for less writing next time.

Even though I laid it out clearly....lol. Not gonna bother.

What was your point of saying "there was no direct comparison with Naruto's SM statement" again?

It's not relevant.

I didn't mean to write V2. My point was Naruto face Ay's speed many times before gaining one of the best reactions feats. That isn't fair to say, SM one-turn of Madara makes that final conclusion.

That's exactly what it means, especially since that was AFTER Naruto's sensing had already adapted to a level where it could track Juubito, who is not faster than Madara.

Basically the fight with Edo Paths
Fight with removing Obito's Mask

Pretty sure there might be more but that enough, since these were long fights.

I was looking for scans, but meh. I'll go over it myself.

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Got tagged because:

1. Didn't expect the Lava to burn him.

2. He was talking.

3. Still evaded the attack, so this isn't a reaction problem.

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Didn't evade, but reacted. Didn't evade because he wanted to catch them.

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Focused on Roshi, so he got tagged by Han.

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Naruto reacted to the first one, but had issues with the others cause he was

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Then we move on to the Obito fight.

595? No issues reacting.

596? No issues reacting.

597 and 598? No issues reacting.

So what are you talking about?

Again Naruto was in distress from those scenes, his intentions werent the same so it threw him off balance

Now you are making excuses.

No Naruto's boost was superior due to what Sasuke couldnt perceive anymore.

At the end? Yeah. Are we talking about KN1? Nope.

No nothing shows reaction boost. Sasuke was able to react to both KN0 and KN1 movements boost with 3T (no CS). KN1 was tricky only because the chakra itself moved on its own.

Not talking about KN0 to KN1, so why you typed this is beyond me. Irrelevant.



Unless there is someone who has the perception level to react to KCM NAruto

Why not?

Negative emotions sensing is the same as normal sensing, but it senses negative emotions. All sensors can't react to people like Ay, so there's no reason to believe Base Naruto+Sensing=V2 Ay level reaction speed.

Sasuke 3T faced 2 boost levels from Naruto and reacted to both. So Im sure there was a huge gap to what 2T and 3T can perceive

If only perception was the problem, but as the manga stated and showed us, it wasn't. So why are you still trying to argue that it was?

The reaction argument is base on how its interpreted so far.

It's based on manga fact.

Ok, but Im also showing the inconsistency of KCM reactions that makes SM Naruto's statement valid, as to why it would be superior in that category.

There are no inconsistencies.

The evidence isnt the problem its the interpretation on why the scans support your claims then mine.

Except there's no logical reason the scans would support your argument. They only prove my argument, or prove nothing at all.

 

[lndra]

snip

Sorry for making this thread Kid. I did not make it for anyone to take it seriously .-., sorry your wasting your time with this guy lol.

 

[KidGamer65]

Sorry for making this thread Kid. I did not make it for anyone to take it seriously .-., sorry your wasting your time with this guy lol.

Lol, it's definitely not your fault.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

That's exactly what it means, especially since that was AFTER Naruto's sensing had already adapted to a level where it could track Juubito, who is not faster than Madara.

So did Sasuke. Didn't mean Sasuke was going to start tagging characters just like that, either.

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Got tagged because:

1. Didn't expect the Lava to burn him.

2. He was talking.

3. Still evaded the attack, so this isn't a reaction problem.

Ok.

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Didn't evade, but reacted. Didn't evade because he wanted to catch them.

These are bad examples from the last two post though.

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Focused on Roshi, so he got tagged by Han.

According to your rebuttal below, thats making an excuse. You can't validate that Naruto intention/condition+ the fact he was focused on dodging Hōsenka no Jutsu (which is homing attack/unpredictable movement making it difficult to dodge) but its perfectly fine for your argument in this case. Even if I remove Naruto's intention/emotion in my argument, my point is still just as valid here.

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Naruto reacted to the first one, but had issues with the others cause he was

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Excuse?

Again Naruto getting attack by homing fireballs, leaving him open is not ok? But getting distracted by one character and gets gang bang opening is?

Then we move on to the Obito fight.

595? No issues reacting.

596? No issues reacting.

597 and 598? No issues reacting.

So what are you talking about?

595 clone couldnt block [

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] and [

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. Couldnt react to the [

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Couldnt react to Obito Binding him with small Mokuton, when Obito wasn't even focused on him and Naruto attempting to get him away from Kakashi.

Now you are making excuses.

Right.

At the end? Yeah. Are we talking about KN1? Nope.

Were talking about the whole fight. Since you stated that that whole fight is evidence of your claim, which I will quote:

You tried to prove that SM Naruto>KCM Naruto's reaction speed because the latter has Sage Sensing while the former has an inferior form of sensing. To support the assertion that KCM doesn't increase reaction speed, you tried to say that B's reaction speed doesn't increase when he enters his cloaked states.

1. Manga feats have proven that wrong, as I've shown via KN0, KN1, and Base Naruto.

2. Nothing in the manga points towards KCM Naruto's reaction speed not being upped by the mode itself.

Not talking about KN0 to KN1, so why you typed this is beyond me. Irrelevant.

Since its in your rebuttal, and your claim as evidence that the whole fight supports your claim.

Negative emotions sensing is the same as normal sensing, but it senses negative emotions. All sensors can't react to people like Ay, so there's no reason to believe Base Naruto+Sensing=V2 Ay level reaction speed.

Imma take your word for it. Not all sensors can move at Naruto's speed (to which he has to natural be able to perceive).

If only perception was the problem, but as the manga stated and showed us, it wasn't. So why are you still trying to argue that it was?

Ok for that scenario only. So lets stick to the feats and potential capability.

It's based on manga fact.

ok

There are no inconsistencies.

Right.

Except there's no logical reason the scans would support your argument. They only prove my argument, or prove nothing at all.

Ok.

 

[KidGamer65]

So did Sasuke. Didn't mean Sasuke was going to start tagging characters just like that, either.

Because, Sasuke can't physically strike someone like Juubito without an Avatar comparable to the one he used. Not seeing how this matters though.

These are bad examples from the last two post though.

I'm posting everything.

According to your rebuttal below, thats making an excuse. You can't validate that Naruto intention/condition+ the fact he was focused on dodging Hōsenka no Jutsu (which is homing attack/unpredictable movement making it difficult to dodge) but its perfectly fine for your argument in this case. Even if I remove Naruto's intention/emotion in my argument, my point is still just as valid here.

You don't put all your focus on evading one thing. You do it, and that's the end of it. Naruto's absolute focus was on Roshi. He took his attack, and was trying as hard as he could to land his Rasengan on the rod.

Not the same thing, at all. There are no inconsistencies, you are just inventing them.

Excuse?

Again Naruto getting attack by homing fireballs, leaving him open is not ok? But getting distracted by one character and gets gang bang opening is?

Yes, because Naruto getting attacked by Sasuke's jutsu is comparable to Naruto being attacked by 6 opponents at once. Let's be serious here.

595 clone couldnt block [

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Fail. I suggest you read the manga. The clone was supposed to get hit so the original could strike Obito at that time. Not to mention reacting is nigh impossible considering he had slipped through Obito, who had the perfect opportunity to strike, while Clone Naruto was mid attack.

and [

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.

Fail again. Not only does Naruto show no surprise, their goal was to hit Obito when he became tangible to warp people away, Naruto not moving baits Obito into warping him, allowing Gai to attack, but they were too slow.

Naruto's reacted to Obito plenty of times, so I don't even know what you are trying to prove here..the only thing you are proving is that you don't read the manga correctly.

Couldnt react to the [

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You are reaching so far that it isn't even funny, now we're straight up ignoring manga panels. He told Naruto not to worry about said Kunai, so he had no reason to do anything. Naruto showed no surprise. Not to mention I suggest we learn what "unable to react" actually means. The position Naruto's in shows that he was unable to evade due to him being in mid air, not that he couldn't react at all.

Couldnt react to Obito Binding him with small Mokuton, when Obito wasn't even focused on him and Naruto attempting to get him away from Kakashi.

You're reaching again.

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He was focused on Naruto up until the point he caught him, and even then, that isn't Naruto being unable to react. That's Naruto unable to dodge due to being in close range within Obito, then there's the fact that Naruto pretty much

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him regardless of being bound.

Were talking about the whole fight. Since you stated that that whole fight is evidence of your claim, which I will quote:

Then ignore KN1, cause Sasuke's issue was the chakra having a mind of it's own. Doesn't change the fact you've failed to counter the whole argument.

Since its in your rebuttal, and your claim as evidence that the whole fight supports your claim.

Read above.

Imma take your word for it. Not all sensors can move at Naruto's speed (to which he has to natural be able to perceive).

And Naruto's speed is above V2 Ay, meaning Naruto reacts to people faster than V2 Ay while SM Naruto gets knocked flat by Base Madara.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Because, Sasuke can't physically strike someone like Juubito without an Avatar comparable to the one he used. Not seeing how this matters though.

Matters because "Avatar" only provides the hitbox range he didnt have to tag Juubito. Sasuke's hitbox range can tag Madara.
It had to take him a while to tag Madara, despite having compatible hitbox.

The same can be argue that SM Naruto (since he already blocked the attack) can eventually find his movement speed/strikes predictable to react to without trouble, instead of blocking next time. Plus there was no need to go after Madara in CQC again if Naruto really though he can take him on there, despite him being "blitz" the first time. Makes no sense to do that.

I'm posting everything.

I can go along and make other examples (such as why Bee and Dodai didn't trust Naruto to react to attacks that they witness movements/attacks slower then him) But I want to just focus on a single points now. And that is if Buijuu chakra really gives you reaction speed.

You don't put all your focus on evading one thing. You do it, and that's the end of it. Naruto's absolute focus was on Roshi. He took his attack, and was trying as hard as he could to land his Rasengan on the rod.

Not the same thing, at all. There are no inconsistencies, you are just inventing them.

Doesnt mean he lost his senses. When we already witness that he already sense Han from a mile away(expression) when he got distracted by blinding light.

Yes, because Naruto getting attacked by Sasuke's jutsu is comparable to Naruto being attacked by 6 opponents at once. Let's be serious here.

Im dead serious those projectiles can easily count as multiple things to get away from. DB made it clear on this Katon capability.

Sasuke shot like five of those in different directions, 2/3 were on screen to where Naruto attempt to escape and we can assume (according to where Sasuke were shooting them) They were enough decoy to catch Naruto off guard.

VOTE Naruto and VOTE Sasuke are compatible fighters so its just as legit of KCM Naruto facing those Paths.

Fail. I suggest you read the manga. The clone was supposed to get hit so the original could strike Obito at that time. Not to mention reacting is nigh impossible considering he had slipped through Obito, who had the perfect opportunity to strike, while Clone Naruto was mid attack.

Was reaching

Fail again. Not only does Naruto show no surprise, their goal was to hit Obito when he became tangible to warp people away, Naruto not moving baits Obito into warping him, allowing Gai to attack, but they were too slow.Naruto's reacted to Obito plenty of times, so I don't even know what you are trying to prove here..the only thing you are proving is that you don't read the manga correctly.

Reaching.

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You are reaching so far that it isn't even funny, now we're straight up ignoring manga panels. He told Naruto not to worry about said Kunai, so he had no reason to do anything. Naruto showed no surprise. Not to mention I suggest we learn what "unable to react" actually means. The position Naruto's in shows that he was unable to evade due to him being in mid air, not that he couldn't react at all.

You're reaching again.

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He was focused on Naruto up until the point he caught him, and even then, that isn't Naruto being unable to react. That's Naruto unable to dodge due to being in close range within Obito, then there's the fact that Naruto pretty much

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him regardless of being bound.

Not a fair point to make, so yea I was reaching.

Then ignore KN1, cause Sasuke's issue was the chakra having a mind of it's own. Doesn't change the fact you've failed to counter the whole argument.

KN1 is part of the whole argument. If you want to take it out of your premise, then Ill use it for mine.

- Sasuke got handled by KN0 since he couldn't perceive his movement and strike speed.
- KN0 " new reaction speed" couldnt keep up with Sasuke new perception.
- KN1 boost Naruto even more. Sasuke can still react to the boost speed movement and strike speed, without the chakra acting on its own, even though he dodged that too.

The boost should have put him in the same position when KN0 was man handling 2 tomoe.

And Naruto's speed is above V2 Ay, meaning Naruto reacts to people faster than V2 Ay while SM Naruto gets knocked flat by Base Madara.

KCM was force to block Ay movements/attacks first. His only option was to out run him, which he did.
SM was force to block Madara at first. I dont think that one scenario leads the conclusion that he can never be able to deal with Madara's speed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Matters because "Avatar" only provides the hitbox range he didnt have to tag Juubito. Sasuke's hitbox range can tag Madara.
It had to take him a while to tag Madara, despite having compatible hitbox.

Wrong, and an assumption on your part. Their Avatars grant them faster striking speed. That's what Sasuke not easily tagging Madara, but tagging Juubito, points to.

The same can be argue that SM Naruto (since he already blocked the attack) can eventually find his movement speed/strikes predictable to react to without trouble, instead of blocking next time. Plus there was no need to go after Madara in CQC again if Naruto really though he can take him on there, despite him being "blitz" the first time. Makes no sense to do that.

Nope. The same does not apply to him. Why would he have to adjust to get used to Madara's speed when he's already adjusted to a far faster speed? The bold is an assumption backed by zero proof or evidence. No need? Naruto tried to engage Madara after Sasuke stabbed him, so no, Naruto didn't just let himself get knocked to the ground because he felt like it, it's cause his reaction to that attack was poor.

I can go along and make other examples (such as why Bee and Dodai didn't trust Naruto to react to attacks that they witness movements/attacks slower then him) But I want to just focus on a single points now. And that is if Buijuu chakra really gives you reaction speed.

Dodai? Lol. What Dodai may have thought of Naruto's abilities doesn't matter to me.

Doesnt mean he lost his senses. When we already witness that he already sense Han from a mile away(expression) when he got distracted by blinding light.

That's exactly what it means, regardless of having sensing. I don't know who told you that sensors can't be blindsided, but it's possible. Sage Madara got blindsided by BM Naruto, does that mean the Kurama Avatar can blitz someone who reacted to Hiraishingiri? JJ Madara got blindsided by Black Zetsu, does that mean that Zetsu blitzed Madara? Obviously not.

Im dead serious those projectiles can easily count as multiple things to get away from. DB made it clear on this Katon capability.

Multiple things coming at you, or should I say 3 fireballs coming at you at once=/=6 V2 Jinchuuriki ganging up on you.

Sasuke shot like five of those in different directions, 2/3 were on screen to where Naruto attempt to escape and we can assume (according to where Sasuke were shooting them) They were enough decoy to catch Naruto off guard.

Read above.

VOTE Naruto and VOTE Sasuke are compatible fighters so its just as legit of KCM Naruto facing those Paths.

They are comparable fighters, doesn't make his Katon super fast.

KN1 is part of the whole argument. If you want to take it out of your premise, then Ill use it for mine.

- Sasuke got handled by KN0 since he couldn't perceive his movement and strike speed.

And because KN0's reaction speed increased. I suggest that we get this through our head. Reaction speed and reflexes are important when you are being attacked AND when you are the attacker. [

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Not getting a boost in reaction speed while you get a boost in movement speed means that you won't be able to react to your own speed, that's impossible. Makes no sense.

- KN0 " new reaction speed" couldnt keep up with Sasuke new perception.

Uh-huh. KN0's movements were tracked via 3-T Sharingan, thus Sasuke was able to slap him around.

- KN1 boost Naruto even more. Sasuke can still react to the boost speed movement and strike speed, without the chakra acting on its own, even though he dodged that too.

Only proves that 3-Tomoe Sasuke can react to both KN0 and KN1's speed.

The boost should have put him in the same position when KN0 was man handling 2 tomoe.

Just your assumption.

KCM was force to block Ay movements/attacks first. His only option was to out run him, which he did.

Lol, what? That's obviously not how it went. Scenario isn't anywhere near the same thing as the Madara vs. Sage Naruto scenario.

-Naruto tries to escape Ay
-Ay catches up and knocks him away.

That's what it consisted of that whole time. Naruto was trying to outrun him the whole time.

SM was force to block Madara at first. I dont think that one scenario leads the conclusion that he can never be able to deal with Madara's speed.

As for Madara, Madara is the one who attacked Naruto first, but all Naruto could do was block. Naruto was forced to block against Ay because he was the aggressor, giving him no time to just run away.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

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Wrong, and an assumption on your part. Their Avatars grant them faster striking speed. That's what Sasuke not easily tagging Madara, but tagging Juubito, points to.

So apparently a representation of the users chakra, being manifested, has faster strike speed then himself? But of course, it doesn't count as assumption for your argument.

And you would believe it to be true for the sake of the argument. When we were debating on Susanoo's reaction speed against Ay+Onoki, you would say Susanoo is slower then the caster's reaction. But here, Susanoo clearly gives a boost in reaction.

But of course "new debate" and "new argument" here so it dont matter.

Agree to disagree

Nope. The same does not apply to him. Why would he have to adjust to get used to Madara's speed when he's already adjusted to a far faster speed? The bold is an assumption backed by zero proof or evidence. No need? Naruto tried to engage Madara after Sasuke stabbed him, so no, Naruto didn't just let himself get knocked to the ground because he felt like it, it's cause his reaction to that attack was poor.

Agree to disagree

Dodai? Lol. What Dodai may have thought of Naruto's abilities doesn't matter to me.

Ok it doesn't matter to you. Agree to disagree

That's exactly what it means, regardless of having sensing. I don't know who told you that sensors can't be blindsided, but it's possible. Sage Madara got blindsided by BM Naruto, does that mean the Kurama Avatar can blitz someone who reacted to Hiraishingiri? JJ Madara got blindsided by Black Zetsu, does that mean that Zetsu blitzed Madara? Obviously not.

I concede this point.

Multiple things coming at you, or should I say 3 fireballs coming at you at once=/=6 V2 Jinchuuriki ganging up on you.

If you look carfully on how Sasuke shot it, you would notice Sasuke already send out fire in arieal formation too. So it wasn't just 3. The 3 were in the direction that was headed in Naruto's panel screen, doesn't mean the others disappear. They were used in other directions.

Agree to disagree

They are comparable fighters, doesn't make his Katon super fast.

Never said they were super fast, but they were clearly decoys that worked perfect to get an opening he couldnt do by simply blitz. Since Naruto never had trouble keeping up with him in the first place

Agree to disagree

And because KN0's reaction speed increased. I suggest that we get this through our head. Reaction speed and reflexes are important when you are being attacked AND when you are the attacker. [

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Not getting a boost in reaction speed while you get a boost in movement speed means that you won't be able to react to your own speed, that's impossible. Makes no sense.

Already was aware the your movement speed should be able to keep up with that said movement speed/reaction speed. What I dont agree is that it gives you superior reaction speed to someone with better perception.

Agree to disagree

Uh-huh. KN0's movements were tracked via 3-T Sharingan, thus Sasuke was able to slap him around.


Only proves that 3-Tomoe Sasuke can react to both KN0 and KN1's speed.

Right so it didn't matter if Naruto was superior in movement speed since Sasuke, with better perception, was superior in that category. Thus the fight was evened out.

Just your assumption.

As much it was your assumption that Sasuke's reaction to both KN0 and KN1 boost cant be able to physically react to Base Lee's blitz, if he were to carry those same eyes.

agree to disagree

Lol, what? That's obviously not how it went. Scenario isn't anywhere near the same thing as the Madara vs. Sage Naruto scenario.

-Naruto tries to escape Ay
-Ay catches up and knocks him away.

That's what it consisted of that whole time. Naruto was trying to outrun him the whole time.



As for Madara, Madara is the one who attacked Naruto first, but all Naruto could do was block. Naruto was forced to block against Ay because he was the aggressor, giving him no time to just run away.

Right due to his movement speed, is why he can naturally react to Ay and eventually out ran him.

SM on the other hand made the choice on how to react. If SM can adapt to someone inferior them him in movement speed, then I fail to see the problem to anyone else.

agree to disagree

 

[KidGamer65]

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So apparently a representation of the users chakra, being manifested, has faster strike speed then himself? But of course, it doesn't count as assumption for your argument.

Yes. That's what the evidence supports it. Don't cry because your argumentation never makes sense.

And you would believe it to be true for the sake of the argument. When we were debating on Susanoo's reaction speed against Ay+Onoki, you would say Susanoo is slower then the caster's reaction. But here, Susanoo clearly gives a boost in reaction.

LOOOOOOL!

I said Susanoo being unable to react doesn't mean that Madara can't track Ay and Onoki. Don't try and twist my argument to make yours look better than it actually is, or to try and discredit my argument because you can't discredit it via valid evidence. Show me where I said the user's physical reaction>Susanoo's physical reaction. Then I'll humor this BS.

It's also amazing how we're comparing a V2 Susanoo being too slow to catch Ay and Onoki, to a KCC Senjutsu Susanoo which was fast enough to catch Juubito.

I suggest we stop trying to weasel our way out of conceding. Evidence shows that Senjutsu Susanoo>>Sasuke in physical movement speed, so that's what it is. Deal with it.

But of course "new debate" and "new argument" here so it dont matter.

It doesn't matter because it's not the same thing. Don't get it twisted, and stop acting dumb. Jesus Christ.

Agree to disagree

No...you are wrong. It's as simple as that.

Agree to disagree

Lol, more like "agree to disagree because I can't prove what I'm saying"

Ok it doesn't matter to you. Agree to disagree

Fine. Even though you still can't support what you are saying.

If you look carfully on how Sasuke shot it, you would notice Sasuke already send out fire in arieal formation too. So it wasn't just 3. The 3 were in the direction that was headed in Naruto's panel screen, doesn't mean the others disappear. They were used in other directions.

Agree to disagree

The fireballs coming at different angles doesn't change the fact that they were all going in one direction, nor does this whole fire thing account for Sasuke slapping him around in the pages after that, so once again, you have no point, whether you are right on this whole fire thing.

Lol. Agree to disagree isn't something you use when you are flat out wrong.

Never said they were super fast, but they were clearly decoys that worked perfect to get an opening he couldnt do by simply blitz. Since Naruto never had trouble keeping up with him in the first place

Agree to disagree

Yet if Naruto could keep up with him, he wouldn't have gotten slapped by Sasuke in the next 2 pages with no reaction.

Already was aware the your movement speed should be able to keep up with that said movement speed/reaction speed. What I dont agree is that it gives you superior reaction speed to someone with better perception.

Agree to disagree

Ok. Does that change the fact that:

1. I'm not saying that superior speed automatically gives you superior reaction speed.

2. You have no evidence, let alone proof, that SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed.

Once again. Agree to disagree isn't something you use when you can't support your point.

Right so it didn't matter if Naruto was superior in movement speed since Sasuke, with better perception, was superior in that category. Thus the fight was evened out.

That only proves that superior movement speed doesn't necessarily mean superior reactions when perception enhancers are involved. Does that mean that SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed? No. No. No.

As much it was your assumption that Sasuke's reaction to both KN0 and KN1 boost cant be able to physically react to Base Lee's blitz, if he were to carry those same eyes.

agree to disagree

Lol, what the hell? Lee already stated WHY Sasuke couldn't react. His BODY was too slow. Do I have to sit here and explain to you what that means? 3-Tomoe Sasuke with the same body stats as the Sasuke who got blitzed, would still get blitzed, because his BODY CANNOT REACT. That is NOT an assumption. That is a FACT.

There is no agree to disagree. You are wrong and you need to admit it.

Right due to his movement speed, is why he can naturally react to Ay and eventually out ran him.

SM on the other hand made the choice on how to react. If SM can adapt to someone inferior them him in movement speed, then I fail to see the problem to anyone else.

agree to disagree

Except you can't prove that Naruto is fast enough to physically evade. You can only prove that his sensing is fast enough to track him.

So once again, there is no agree to disagree. You are wrong on literally all fronts except maybe one or two, and not even those help your main argument. You've shown that you are incapable of supporting the assertion that SM Naruto>KCM Naruto in reaction speed so I'm just going to take this as your concession.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Ooooooh! Kill em!​

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