KCM Naruto shits. Better speed as he could effortlessly evade v2 Ay, better reflexes and greater durability and much more. He basically gets blitzed and killed right off the bat.
KCM Naruto was just a bad match against Raikage especially considering it was a clone which will dispel if got hit. But SM gives you advantage, giving you better reflexes thus reducing the chance you'll get hit. Both mode has its uses. You can't use A B C logic on this.
Yes I did. You just happen to misinterpret them and based it on flaw reasoning.
I clearly showed that better sensing means better perception. While you were arguing that the one with the fastest speed will always have the better perception.
Your whole reasoning is flawed while attempting to discredit the evidence at hand, to fit your argument.
I clearly showed that better sensing means better perception. While you were arguing that the one with the fastest speed will always have the better perception.
Except you didn't. You proved that someone getting the ability to sense can increase their reaction speed, not that having sensing automatically puts you above someone who has an inferior version of sensing. Shit makes no sense.
You proved that Base Kabuto is inferior to Sage Kabuto because Sage Kabuto got Sage Sensing.
You proved that Base Naruto is inferior to Sage Naruto because Sage Naruto got Sage Sensing.
You haven't proved that KCM Naruto is inferior to Sage Naruto, because the comparison can't be settled by simply adding something on. They both have two different power ups, and both of said power ups boost speed, and you have ZERO evidence to prove that the Sage boost gives Naruto better reaction speed than the KCM Boost.
If I used your shit logic, the people with Sage Sensing would be the ones with the fastest reaction speed, because they have better sensing.
Then you tried to pull some "KCM doesn't increase Naruto's reaction speed" BS, even though Base Naruto has no feat that'd let him react to V2 Ay AND there is no evidence in the manga that backs that claim.
Your whole reasoning is flawed while attempting to discredit the evidence at hand, to fit your argument.
Yea pretty sure I post a scan, as I never made up Naruto making a statement that SM>KCM in sensing. And like I said you just happen to misinterpret it as not admitting better reaction. So the evidence isnt the problem. Its the interpretation.
Except you didn't. You proved that someone getting the ability to sense can increase their reaction speed, not that having sensing automatically puts you above someone who has an inferior version of sensing. Shit makes no sense.
I dont remember saying anything about it being "automatically". As it would be self defeating on my own argument, since I argue that they can "progressively" become superior just like how the manga showed.
You haven't proved that KCM Naruto is inferior to Sage Naruto, because the comparison can't be settled by simply adding something on. They both have two different power ups, and both of said power t.
Your contradicting yourself? You said they cant be compare by the additions of their power up. But made a comparison that KCM boost is the reason it can be, to determine superiority over ones physical category. So how are they compare to something you dont believe can't be compared in power boost?
Right because only someone use the correct logic would say KM Naruto and Sasuke can = reaction speed, so therefore that concludes Sasuke and KM Naruto are comparable in movement speed.
Then you tried to pull some "KCM doesn't increase Naruto's reaction speed" BS, even though Base Naruto has no feat that'd let him react to V2 Ay AND there is no evidence in the manga that backs that claim.
Right because base on your reasoning anyone who has the same speed movement also has the same amount of reaction speed. So EMS Sasuke = BSM Naruto in speed.
Yea pretty sure I post a scan, as I never made up Naruto making a statement that SM>KCM in sensing. And like I said you just happen to misinterpret it as not admitting better reaction. So the evidence isnt the problem. Its the interpretation.
Uh...no, you didn't. I asked, and you said you would, but you didn't.
I dont remember saying anything about it being "automatically". As it would be self defeating on my own argument, since I argue that they can "progressively" become superior just like how the manga showed.
Manga only showed that SENSING, can progressively increase in effectiveness, not that the person's reaction speed will always increase to match the level of sensing they have. Being able to sense fast enough to track someone (We'll just say Juubito) doesn't mean that you are fast enough to react to said person. BSM Naruto's reaction speed>>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto since that's BM being multiplied by SM. He has the reaction speed necessary (via Kurama Avatar) to tag Juubito. SM Naruto doesn't.
This doesn't prove that SM Naruto has better reaction speed than KCM Naruto, that only proves he has superior sensing, which is something we already know.
Your contradicting yourself? You said they cant be compare by the additions of their power up. But made a comparison that KCM boost is the reason it can be, to determine superiority over ones physical category. So how are they compare to something you dont believe can't be compared in power boost?
What in the world are you even talking about? Comparing by addition doesn't work in this case, because we are talking about the same character, but two different modes. You can't use the logic of Base Naruto+Sage Sensory>Base Naruto to say KCM Naruto+better sensory=SM Naruto, thus SM Naruto>KCM Naruto, because KCM gives it's own boost.
No idea what you are trying to refer to, but I'm almost certain that it's invalid.
Right because only someone use the correct logic would say KM Naruto and Sasuke can = reaction speed, so therefore that concludes Sasuke and KM Naruto are comparable in movement speed.
Lol, I see we are dodging the statement. If we used your shit logic, we'd be saying:
SM Naruto, SM Kabuto, SM Hashirama>Rinnegan Sasuke in reaction speed.
Hypothetical Kid Naruto w/ Sage Mode>EMS Madara in reaction speed.
SM Naruto, SM Kabuto, SM Hashirama (Even though Hashirama is stated to be inferior to Tobirama in speed)>Tobirama and Minato in reaction speed.
Your movement speed is always faster than your reaction speed. That doesn't mean that people with equal reaction speed have equal movement speed. If I said anything else, it was incorrect.
Except KCM gives sensory so how did I said that it "doesn't". Nice misrepresentation
Then I'll just say that you implied Base B=V1 B=V2 B in reaction speed. That Base Naruto=KN0=KN1=KN3=KN4=KN6=KN8 in reaction speed. Lol. Doesn't change my point.
Right because base on your reasoning anyone who has the same speed movement also has the same amount of reaction speed. So EMS Sasuke = BSM Naruto in speed.
Lol, read above, but I never used this logic. Lol. Nice try though. I said that the faster your movement speed, the faster your reaction speed, I'll admit that that logic doesn't work, but it doesn't change the fact that your reaction speed is always going to be faster than your movement speed.
Manga only showed that SENSING, can progressively increase in effectiveness, not that the person's reaction speed will always increase to match the level of sensing they have. Being able to sense fast enough to track someone (We'll just say Juubito) doesn't mean that you are fast enough to react to said person. BSM Naruto's reaction speed>>>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto since that's BM being multiplied by SM. He has the reaction speed necessary (via Kurama Avatar) to tag Juubito. SM Naruto doesn't.
This doesn't prove that SM Naruto has better reaction speed than KCM Naruto, that only proves he has superior sensing, which is something we already know.
What in the world are you even talking about? Comparing by addition doesn't work in this case, because we are talking about the same character, but two different modes. You can't use the logic of Base Naruto+Sage Sensory>Base Naruto to say KCM Naruto+better sensory=SM Naruto, thus SM Naruto>KCM Naruto, because KCM gives it's own boost.
No idea what you are trying to refer to, but I'm almost certain that it's invalid.
SM Naruto, SM Kabuto, SM Hashirama>Rinnegan Sasuke in reaction speed.
Hypothetical Kid Naruto w/ Sage Mode>EMS Madara in reaction speed.
SM Naruto, SM Kabuto, SM Hashirama (Even though Hashirama is stated to be inferior to Tobirama in speed)>Tobirama and Minato in reaction speed.
Your movement speed is always faster than your reaction speed. That doesn't mean that people with equal reaction speed have equal movement speed. If I said anything else, it was incorrect.
- I never made a claim that these sensory hold no limit to what they can preserve. So no thats not close to my logic. My logic is the same as yours, in a way. As there is no way SM Hashirama is faster then KM Naruto so we both can't conclude why the latter can replicate the reason to tag Juubito.
- Same as above
- Wait so you are arguing that Tobirama and Minato have superior reaction speed then SM Hashirama?
@Bold, this is why arguing with you can be confusing, and potentially runs in circles:
Never said that. I said that your reaction speed is faster than your movement speed. Lol. Don't try to twist my words around. That's pathetic. If Kabuto's reaction speed is only on par with Madara's movement speed, then Madara's reaction speed is above Kabuto's reaction speed. That simple.
Then I'll just say that you implied Base B=V1 B=V2 B in reaction speed. That Base Naruto=KN0=KN1=KN3=KN4=KN6=KN8 in reaction speed. Lol. Doesn't change my point.
How does it fail in logic? Wasnt Sasuke having trouble keeping up with Base bee movements/sword play in CQC? And didnt he outright react to V1 boost Bee's movements better? Shouldnt Bee's reaction speed not have been better in that case to tag Sasuke?
Lol, read above, but I never used this logic. Lol. Nice try though. I said that the faster your movement speed, the faster your reaction speed, I'll admit that that logic doesn't work, but it doesn't change the fact that your reaction speed is always going to be faster than your movement speed.
No signs of increased reflexes from KCM. If anything, he's given absurd speed with his normal reflexes, which, in some cases, is a hindrance.
On top of which, the fact that KCM didn't just blitz V1 Ay like SM did to 3rd Raikage should make it clear that the reflex department is better. In fact, I don't know why I'm arguing this when he has frog kata, which, by its definition, would make SM superior in reflexes.
No, I have a base for better ninjutsu.
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Show me evidence that a normal ransengan from KCM has this level of power.
Certainly.
Naruto tanking a hit from Kurama.
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What a 4 tailed version (weaker) can do.
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Gives a load of perspective for SM durability.
Assuming KCM Naruto can even properly use his speed, which the manga has shown time and time again, he doesn't have that much control over his speed. Kurama mode Naruto does, but KCM does not. This should be clear as Naruto runs into things, and he hasn't even blitzed people like Itachi. KCM's body flicker speed is only controllable up to V1 Ay speeds. Outside of that, he has no control, and is only good for dodging.
No signs of increased reflexes from KCM. If anything, he's given absurd speed with his normal reflexes, which, in some cases, is a hindrance.
On top of which, the fact that KCM didn't just blitz V1 Ay like SM did to 3rd Raikage should make it clear that the reflex department is better. In fact, I don't know why I'm arguing this when he has frog kata, which, by its definition, would make SM superior in reflexes.
What the hell? Dude? Are you serious? Lol.....The fact I even have to address this is sad.
-SM Naruto's best reaction feat.
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-KCM Naruto's best reaction feat.
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Dude almost got blitzed by Madara, who is NOT faster than Ay. KCM Naruto reacted to Ay at the very last second, and evaded his top speed. KCM Naruto not blitzing Ay like Sage Naruto did to the Raikage mainly stems from the reason that SM Naruto was trying to counter attack, KCM Naruto was trying to get away from him. Two completely different things with two completely different solutions. Nice try though.
Then there's the fact the clone clearly says "I've exhausted myself"
I don't know who told you having Frog Kata means you have superior reflexes to those who don't, but like the rest of this point, it makes no sense. Is Jiraiya (confirmed user of Frog Kata courtesy of DB 4) now a top tier in the reflex department?
If you think KCM is just a massive speed boost, with no boost in reflexes, I highly suggest you get me scans that support Base Naruto being able to react to Ay.
No, I have a base for better ninjutsu.
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Show me evidence that a normal ransengan from KCM has this level of power.
Don't need to. Their Rasen Shuriken have literally shown to be no different in the power area, at least no noticeable difference. Unlike this and his larger than usual Sage Rasengan, it is a fair comparison.
Which proves nothing. The impact from that attack is inferior to the impact from KN4's attack. Thus KN4's attack was stronger, because Kurama didn't even begin to use his full power. Also, didn't Orochimaru tank KN4's attack? Lol.
Assuming KCM Naruto can even properly use his speed, which the manga has shown time and time again, he doesn't have that much control over his speed.
Actually it hasn't. That's just something fans made up because Naruto doesn't spam his Shunshin, which is something literally every Ninja does. Unless you can give me real evidence as to why KCM Naruto can't use Shunshin, there is no debate on this topic, so don't even try it.
Based on pretty much nothing. KCM Naruto shits on SM Naruto. It's nonsense that people are arguing a WEAKER form of Naruto beats the STRONGER one. Does Hebi Sasuke beat MS Sasuke? Does MS Sasuke beat EMS Sasuke? Does EMS Sasuke beat Rinnegan Sasuke now?
Yes I did. You just happen to misinterpret them and based it on flaw reasoning.
I clearly showed that better sensing means better perception. While you were arguing that the one with the fastest speed will always have the better perception.
Your whole reasoning is flawed while attempting to discredit the evidence at hand, to fit your argument.
Ok so since SM Naruto has a better sensing than non-senjutsu users, he solos 99% of NV ? The only thing whose flawed here is your logic Lol. And your brain too lmao
Ignoring the point=Dodging the point. It's really that simple.
- I never made a claim that these sensory hold no limit to what they can preserve. So no thats not close to my logic. My logic is the same as yours, in a way. As there is no way SM Hashirama is faster then KM Naruto so we both can't conclude why the latter can replicate the reason to tag Juubito.
You said that better sensory=better reaction speed. Sasuke can't sense, Sages can, thus by your logic, they'd have better reaction speed, or they'd be able to progressively reach a level of reaction speed above those with no sensing. That is EXACTLY what your logic leads to, whether you intend it to or not.
- Wait so you are arguing that Tobirama and Minato have superior reaction speed then SM Hashirama?
Yup. Tobirama already has the feat of reacting to, and tagging Juubito with Hiraishin, a reaction feat that surpasses any other feat from non Rikudo Leveled characters, despite him losing half his body.
@Bold, this is why arguing with you can be confusing, and potentially runs in circles:
Already explained. Sharingan tracks linear movements FAR easier than it tracks unorthodox movements. V1 B is factually faster than Base B in every way, shape, and form.
Shouldnt Bee's reaction speed not have been better in that case to tag Sasuke?
Um. Read above. Two completely different types of attack, and that's why this analogy makes no sense. Like I said, we've seen Naruto's speed boosts from Base, to KN0, to KN1. He was getting slapped by Sasuke in Base, but then when he went KN0, he started slapping Sasuke around. Impossible with just a boost in speed and no boost in reflexes.
Is Base Gai=7G Gai=8G Gai in reaction speed? Obviously not.
If you want to call it that, but I have no idea why you are referencing what was said in the past in a new argument. I didn't bring up an argument only to switch it around in the middle of said argument.
