[Discussion] There is no King

Carpchonay

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Kaido is the King. "Kaido the KING of the beasts" there is no King and Queen Calamity. Jack is Kaido's #1 Calamity. His bounty is close to Katakuri's. Oda had to put him against 2 admiral level fighters to nerf him and make him look weak so that the story could progress. It was plot induced. Its just all common sense. Quote this and put it into your sigs. When the time comes it'll prove I am right. Too much obvious shit going on to say otherwise.

Edited my post for a little more detail. I posted this in another thread. Better than my original 2 liner.
 
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Caliburn

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I've always been myself very skeptical about the Queen/King theory and it annoys me a bit that many people already assume this to be true, however that doesn't take away that that theory isn't baseless, so there's really no need to be so offensive about it. Especially considering your reasoning here isn't very solid either as King/Queen are supposed to be their actual names, not titles.

Also in the case of Kaidou it's (most likely) just one of the many ways he gets described. It's similar to how Boa is called the Pirate Empress. In itself it doesn't mean much, while the title of Pirate King definitely does. And lets not forget that there are dozens of kings present at the Reverie right now, so there are quite a few more kings than the two you mentioned.
 

Passerby

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There is a good chance that at least one of the calamities will be above Jack. Whether that calamity is named King or Queen however is yet to be seen.
 

Love Cook

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The official ranks right here:

Joker
King
Queen
Jack
Tenryūbito
Doc Kyu
Hachi
Shichibukai Mihawk
Rokushiki Lucci
Gorosei elder
Yonji
Sanji
Niji
Ace

On a serious note, to give more credibility to the card theme 2 of Kaidou's underlings are called Sheepshead and Gin Rummy which are both card games
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Is to early for the strongest calamity to appear, follow the shonen logic.
Oda's work is unique like that for some reason, like Cracker was shown first in Big mom's crew, Ace for Whitebeard's, Burgess for Blackbeard, and Ben Beckman for Shanks.

There wasn't a particular order when revealing who's who when it came to rankings. I thought that it's only First Mates that have a billion bounty based on Dogtooth?
 

Uzumaki Macho

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I've always been myself very skeptical about the Queen/King theory and it annoys me a bit that many people already assume this to be true, however that doesn't take away that that theory isn't baseless, so there's really no need to be so offensive about it. Especially considering your reasoning here isn't very solid either as King/Queen are supposed to be their actual names, not titles.

Also in the case of Kaidou it's (most likely) just one of the many ways he gets described. It's similar to how Boa is called the Pirate Empress. In itself it doesn't mean much, while the title of Pirate King definitely does. And lets not forget that there are dozens of kings present at the Reverie right now, so there are quite a few more kings than the two you mentioned.
A note in Oda's office said "Kaido, King, Queen, Jack." That's pretty definitive proof that they're names/nicknames are King and Queen imo. Oda clearly planned to name them King and Queen at one point in time, and since every other important Beast Pirate has been named after cards, I doubt that Oda's changed his mind.

Oda's work is unique like that for some reason, like Cracker was shown first in Big mom's crew, Ace for Whitebeard's, Burgess for Blackbeard, and Ben Beckman for Shanks.

There wasn't a particular order when revealing who's who when it came to rankings. I thought that it's only First Mates that have a billion bounty based on Dogtooth?
The Calamities will have higher bounties than their SC counterparts because they're much more evil and commit crimes more frequently. The fact that Jack has a bounty lower than BM's #1 makes it nearly impossible for him to be Kaido's #1 since if he was on Katakuri's level, his bounty would be higher than Kata's because Jack loves to kill people, unlike Katakuri.
 
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Sakazuki

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Oda's work is unique like that for some reason, like Cracker was shown first in Big mom's crew, Ace for Whitebeard's, Burgess for Blackbeard, and Ben Beckman for Shanks.

There wasn't a particular order when revealing who's who when it came to rankings. I thought that it's only First Mates that have a billion bounty based on Dogtooth?
You know im a believer of the jack queen king, but... If big mom has the strongest family... And katakuris bounty is only a little higher than jacks, than i don't see how theres a queen king without their bounty being higher than katakuris, which they shouldnt be if big mom has the stronger crew... So maybe jack is the first commander
 

Rikudou Tobi

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You know im a believer of the jack queen king, but... If big mom has the strongest family... And katakuris bounty is only a little higher than jacks, than i don't see how theres a queen king without their bounty being higher than katakuris, which they shouldnt be if big mom has the stronger crew... So maybe jack is the first commander
Took the words right out of my mouth and this is the most logical answer I received. Not some headcanon that someone quoted on me earlier.
The last person we see have a higher bounty than Jack became the 5th Emperor of the Sea, so it wouldn’t make sense for Kaido to have a subordinate that has a bounty all the way up to like 2 billion. I just don’t see that happening and Katakuri is the poster boy for the strongest general commander on Big mom’s ship.
 

Easyfathom

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The official ranks right here:

Joker
King
Queen
Jack
Tenryūbito
Doc Kyu
Hachi
Shichibukai Mihawk
Rokushiki Lucci
Gorosei elder
Yonji
Sanji
Niji
Ace

On a serious note, to give more credibility to the card theme 2 of Kaidou's underlings are called Sheepshead and Gin Rummy which are both card games
Could push the 10 too from the X in Drakes name.
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Not to mention Sabo who is the chief of staff in the revolutionary army rebellion only has a bounty of 602 million that is equivalent to the former 4th commander on Big mom’s ship, Snack.

Dragon on the other hand is the most wanted man in the world.
 

Sakazuki

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Considering her family is her crew. Its pretty simple tbh. Why would one yonkos 3rd commander be that close to ANY other yonkos first commander anyways? Just doesnt make sense
 
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Punk Hazard

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Took the words right out of my mouth and this is the most logical answer I received. Not some headcanon that someone quoted on me earlier.
The last person we see have a higher bounty than Jack became the 5th Emperor of the Sea, so it wouldn’t make sense for Kaido to have a subordinate that has a bounty all the way up to like 2 billion. I just don’t see that happening and Katakuri is the poster boy for the strongest general commander on Big mom’s ship.
1. Luffy is not the "official" Fifth Emperor. That's something Morgans called him colloquially.

2. Luffy is a captain. Even if he was officially a Fifth Emperor, it would still be logical for there to be a commander with a higher bounty on the virtue that they're a commander. A commander that follows an Emperor can't be called the Fifth Emperor, unlike an independent captain.

Not to mention Sabo who is the chief of staff in the revolutionary army rebellion only has a bounty of 602 million that is equivalent to the former 4th commander on Big mom’s ship, Snack.

Dragon on the other hand is the most wanted man in the world.
Because bounties are determined by crimes done. The fact that the Revs operate covertly and secretly likely contributes to Sabo having such a low bounty
 

Sakazuki

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I mean, i can see a queen or king having a higher bounty than katakuris because of crimes commited... Still believe katakuri would smash queen or king if they do exist though.

One things for sure... There are 3 calamities
 

Uzumaki Macho

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Considering her family is her crew. Its pretty simple tbh. Why would one yonkos 3rd commander be that close to ANY other yonkos first commander anyways? Just doesnt make sense
Kaido’s crew isn’t his family though, so BM having the strongest family doesn’t put her crew above Kaido’s. Jack isn’t close to Kata. He’d get mid-high diffed.
 

Caliburn

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Oda's work is unique like that for some reason, like Cracker was shown first in Big mom's crew, Ace for Whitebeard's, Burgess for Blackbeard, and Ben Beckman for Shanks.

There wasn't a particular order when revealing who's who when it came to rankings. I thought that it's only First Mates that have a billion bounty based on Dogtooth?
Only none of those are comparable. Context is rather important here as Ace was introduced as Luffy's brother that happens to be a WB commander, not as a means to introduce the WB crew. That would only become relevant during the Marineford arc. The BB crew was introduced almost simultaneously and in a rather random fashion. I think no one expected them to become what they are now and Shanks' crew on the other hand did got introduced simultaneously in the very first chapter.

More importantly though none of these were crews that the Strawhats had to face in the near future, not even the BB crew. After all there's no immediate reason to introduce a group of characters over a certain duration of time based on their strength when that's not relevant for the ongoing plot.

Also there are very well multiple instances Oda did introduce the strongest character as last. More recent example: Dogtooth. From a story perspective this also makes sense as you can build up suspense. Assuming that Jack would be the strongest Calamity, that would be rather underwhelming. Despite that I liked the way how he has been portrayed, that doesn't change the fact he wasn't able to overcome the Minks till he used Caesar's gas and got one-shotted by Zunisha. I'm not saying that therefore he's weak or something, but if you take into consideration that he was the first introduced 1B bounty and he's supposed to be Kaidou's strongest subordinate...well yeah that feels really anticlimactic. It would simply be much more beneficial for the story for Jack not to be Kaidou's strongest soldier.

On the other hand it's unlikely that Kaidou has three subordinates with bounties of 1B and higher, while BM has only one. Their crews are supposed to be near perfectly balanced, however when the bounties are that high, it's rather unrealistic to think the amount is going to be exactly the same. A difference of 50m makes little difference.

So the most logical conclusion that can drawn from this, is that Jack is the 2nd strongest of the Three Calamities. That his bounty is exactly 1B also can support this as it's the lowest bounty you can have with 1B threshold.

A note in Oda's office said "Kaido, King, Queen, Jack." That's pretty definitive proof that they're names/nicknames are King and Queen imo. Oda clearly planned to name them King and Queen at one point in time, and since every other important Beast Pirate has been named after cards, I doubt that Oda's changed his mind.
I know, I have seen the picture, only to me it wasn't that particularly clear and you can't disclose the possibility someone intentionally altering it. It's also possible that it are temporary work titles and/or that he changes his mind. There are other characters that have card-related names that are not part of Kaidou's crew and other characters that are, but do not have such names.

So no this is not "definitive proof". Definitive would be that they, or at least one, are actually introduced like that in the series. This is, as I said in my OP, enough to have a strong basis, but not that it's already proven. In particular because Oda doesn't always literally take over specific terms or names, but makes puns on or adaptations from them.

The Calamities will have higher bounties than their SC counterparts because they're much more evil and commit crimes more frequently. The fact that Jack has a bounty lower than BM's #1 makes it nearly impossible for him to be Kaido's #1 since if he was on Katakuri's level, his bounty would be higher than Kata's because Jack loves to kill people, unlike Katakuri.
That's completely baseless. You have absolutely no idea what all the Sweet Commanders and Calamities have done in the past. In particular because you don't even know two of the three Calamities. You are solely basing this on the fact that Jack is seemingly more brutal and less understanding than Dogtooth, but that is not something that automatically reflects in their bounty. In the end all of them are still the subordinates of two highly erratic and cruel Yonkou.

You know im a believer of the jack queen king, but... If big mom has the strongest family... And katakuris bounty is only a little higher than jacks, than i don't see how theres a queen king without their bounty being higher than katakuris, which they shouldnt be if big mom has the stronger crew... So maybe jack is the first commander
Their crews are balanced. As I said previously it's kind of unrealistic to expect that they will have the exact same bounties, but when they are that high, having differences of around 50m makes little difference to be honest. Likewise Jack's bounty is also only a little higher than Smoothie's, who is the 2nd strongest of the BM crew after Dogtooth.

Not to mention Sabo who is the chief of staff in the revolutionary army rebellion only has a bounty of 602 million that is equivalent to the former 4th commander on Big mom’s ship, Snack.

Dragon on the other hand is the most wanted man in the world.
Sabo is part of the RA, which is a completely different entity than the Yonkou. They are organized and operate differently and really can't be compared to how the Yonkou do things. Not to mention Sabo is 22, which is far younger than all the Sweet Commanders and most likely the Calamities too. For instance Cracker is 45, Smoothie 35 and Dogtooth 48.
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Only none of those are comparable. Context is rather important here as Ace was introduced as Luffy's brother that happens to be a WB commander, not as a means to introduce the WB crew. That would only become relevant during the Marineford arc. The BB crew was introduced almost simultaneously and in a rather random fashion. I think no one expected them to become what they are now and Shanks' crew on the other hand did got introduced simultaneously in the very first chapter.

More importantly though none of these were crews that the Strawhats had to face in the near future, not even the BB crew. After all there's no immediate reason to introduce a group of characters over a certain duration of time based on their strength when that's not relevant for the ongoing plot.

Also there are very well multiple instances Oda did introduce the strongest character as last. More recent example: Dogtooth. From a story perspective this also makes sense as you can build up suspense. Assuming that Jack would be the strongest Calamity, that would be rather underwhelming. Despite that I liked the way how he has been portrayed, that doesn't change the fact he wasn't able to overcome the Minks till he used Caesar's gas and got one-shotted by Zunisha. I'm not saying that therefore he's weak or something, but if you take into consideration that he was the first introduced 1B bounty and he's supposed to be Kaidou's strongest subordinate...well yeah that feels really anticlimactic. It would simply be much more beneficial for the story for Jack not to be Kaidou's strongest soldier.

On the other hand it's unlikely that Kaidou has three subordinates with bounties of 1B and higher, while BM has only one. Their crews are supposed to be near perfectly balanced, however when the bounties are that high, it's rather unrealistic to think the amount is going to be exactly the same. A difference of 50m makes little difference.

So the most logical conclusion that can drawn from this, is that Jack is the 2nd strongest of the Three Calamities. That his bounty is exactly 1B also can support this as it's the lowest bounty you can have with 1B threshold.
Ace was introduced as a before he was Luffy's brother the next chapter over. And as for and nothing more when he was first introduced too as well.
There's no definite order like I said before but the only reason why we know Dogtooth is stronger his because of his 1 billion bounty. We know that it's common sense that he's the strongest (unless you're Uzumaki Macho) based on his bounty being the highest so we stick to this no questions asked, so why would Jack be an lower if he's essentially Dogtooth's threat equivalent?

You said so yourself that it needs to be balanced. Even Ace who is 2nd division is lower than Big mom's top 4 generals. Even though bounties are not 100% accurate when it comes to threat levels, it's pretty damn near close and so we know that there's a strength requirement in becoming one. Which my point still stands about this bounty thing. It wouldn't make sense for Jack to be weaker given his than anybody else in Kaido's crew unless Oda is trying this new unorthodox approach like he did with Sanji and Zoro. Zoro being by his colleagues is now a few bounties less than Sanji the third or maybe even forth strongest in the crew now that Jimbei has now joined.


edit: Jack getting smashed by Zushina is very understandable because it's an island. I don't expect anyone who isn't Whitebeard's level of strength to take a hit from an elephant shaped island.

Sabo is part of the RA, which is a completely different entity than the Yonkou. They are organized and operate differently and really can't be compared to how the Yonkou do things. Not to mention Sabo is 22, which is far younger than all the Sweet Commanders and most likely the Calamities too. For instance Cracker is 45, Smoothie 35 and Dogtooth 48.
I'm talking about threat level not pirates vs rebels. Even though the revolutionaries are not pirates, there's leader is still the most dangerous man in the world and the chief of staff's bounty is no shy of proving how formidable those people are.
Sure Sabo is young but his bounty is higher than most people who are older than him. Big mom's generals are naturally higher than everyone else because she has a reputation for having the strongest family (crew).
 
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Love Cook

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Mr. Literal is back again. Read in between the lines some times.

Doffy called his crew a family but it wasn't a real family. Big Mom's family are all connected by blood. Cracker even says to Pound that he isn't part of the family as he isn't related to LinLin by blood.

So the statement that Big Mom has the strongest family is a fact. But that doesn't have to mean that Big Mom has the strongest crew.
 
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