Spoiler: Izanagi and Izanami DO NOT need senju dna

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Vinnie

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Makes sense to an extent... however I think this proves Tobi is an Uchiha more and does not say he isn't, because Tobi has, as he has claimed, DNA taken from the 1st Hokage and used it to perform Izangi but what I think he meant was he used it to extend the time he was able to use a single Iznagi Technique because Tobi said Danzo's Izangi lasted for little more than a few moments but somehow Tobi was able to use Izangi to avoid Konan's 6,000,000,000 paper bombs for ten minutes, or at least five minutes if he used his phasing technique then Izangi directly afterwards, but none the less that means that Tobi used Izangi for a Minimum of Five Minutes, while he said that a normal Izangi lasts for only a moment or two and that Danzo had let Orochimaru experiment on him to make it last longer which only made it last a few moments longer than that... I believe that this means Tobi must be Uchiha because then how else could he perform such a long Izangi if it was not complete, or as close to complete as Tobi can get without the full power of the Sage of Six Paths.


but my only other problem is is that if Itachi can use this Jutsu without Senju DNA than that means either Tobi lied to Konan which would not make sense as he had just killed her and had no reason to otherwise or he was wrong about Izangi and did not know that it did not require Senju DNA but he did know it was an Uchiha Technique so if he was wrong than how could he be Uchiha from Madara's time if he didn't know about Izangi's requirements, which means he probably isn't an Uchiha, but then how do you explain what I said above... this is really F-ing crazy

I'm just gonna wait till next Wensday for Itachi's explanation I just gave myself a headache
 

Aiou

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And you KNOW for a fact that this refers to Izanami and not Edo Tensei?
Seeing as Izanagi is a kinjutsu and Izanami forms a pair with Izanagi, it makes more sense that it is infact Izanami that is "released" and not the Edo Tensei. Why would the Edo Tensei be released?

I can't know for a fact ofc, because I didn't make this manga :) But I'm pretty sure it's Izanami and not Edo Tensei.
 

MangekyouJ

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Except for the fact that you didn't buy the manga.

Idiot...
....I 'd hate to tell you this, but you could be wrong....some people in certain countries do buy the manga...It's even in a Magazine called Shonin Jump, I believe...

So try to be a little bit more smarter when trying to insult someone instead of making yourself look the jackass....:scorps:.....I'm just saying....
 

|KirA|

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nice group wanking thread :D
uuuh yeah sasuke uuuh nooo itachi yaa yaa itachi uuuh uchiha *cum*

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squigles

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Makes sense to an extent... however I think this proves Tobi is an Uchiha more and does not say he isn't, because Tobi has, as he has claimed, DNA taken from the 1st Hokage and used it to perform Izangi but what I think he meant was he used it to extend the time he was able to use a single Iznagi Technique because Tobi said Danzo's Izangi lasted for little more than a few moments but somehow Tobi was able to use Izangi to avoid Konan's 6,000,000,000 paper bombs for ten minutes, or at least five minutes if he used his phasing technique then Izangi directly afterwards, but none the less that means that Tobi used Izangi for a Minimum of Five Minutes, while he said that a normal Izangi lasts for only a moment or two and that Danzo had let Orochimaru experiment on him to make it last longer which only made it last a few moments longer than that... I believe that this means Tobi must be Uchiha because then how else could he perform such a long Izangi if it was not complete, or as close to complete as Tobi can get without the full power of the Sage of Six Paths.


but my only other problem is is that if Itachi can use this Jutsu without Senju DNA than that means either Tobi lied to Konan which would not make sense as he had just killed her and had no reason to otherwise or he was wrong about Izangi and did not know that it did not require Senju DNA but he did know it was an Uchiha Technique so if he was wrong than how could he be Uchiha from Madara's time if he didn't know about Izangi's requirements, which means he probably isn't an Uchiha, but then how do you explain what I said above... this is really F-ing crazy

I'm just gonna wait till next Wensday for Itachi's explanation I just gave myself a headache
Basically, a lot of people who are fans of this manga and post here, are NOT Japanese people. There is a HUGE difference between English and Japanese, and unless you know these differences (many of which are subtle) you would not understand much Japanese.

The biggest difference is that in English, there are all these little words and punctuations that explicitly define the context of a conversation.

If I was talking about my brother getting a new car and going for a ride with him in it, in English I would say:

'My brother just got a brand new car, and we are going to go for a ride in it!'

In Japanese, the direct translation would be

'Since a car my brother received, a ride, we are going for.'

And it would be worded in such a way that you would have to understand the context of the conversation to know WHO got the car, and WHO is going for a ride in it, as well as small details like 'the car is new' and the fact that 'it's my brother.'

Context is everything in Japanese language, since they often leave out many many fine details that we English speakers need in order to understand the context of the situation.

A perfect example is that fight with Konan, and how she prepared enough paper bombs for 10 minutes of explosions, but somehow Tobi managed to survive for 10 minutes by using Izanagi. In that context, surviving for 10 minutes with Izanagi, required the use of Hashirama's DNA combined with Uchiha's powers, because Hashirama's DNA enhances the duration of Izanagi.

These are all things that are implied by the context of the conversation but not written implicitly, because Japanese language does not allow for that.

So while we have seen Izanagi used ONLY in the context of Hashirama's DNA being present, that does not mean that Izanagi requires the use of Hashirama's DNA at all. It simply means that in the context of which we've seen it used (10 Sharingan each casting Izanagi for 1 minute, Tobi using it for 5-10 minutes with a single Sharingan), that yes, those particular circumstances required the use of Hashi's DNA.

But so many of you are too simple minded to understand things like that. Which is why you sit here quabbling over tiny details of this manga to begin with.

In order to understand anything, you just need to look at the context of the situation.
 

jabznaruto

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So basically true uchiha's = incomplete
Non uchiha's with hashirama dna = incomplete
True uchiha + hashirama dna = complete

here is mine:

basically "capable" true uchihas or senjus = complete
non uchiha's with hashirama dna = incomplete
true uchiha + hashirama dna = complete (this will be so6p-like) - although edo-madara (he isn't living anymore) and kabuto might be claiming they could do the kinjutsus completely as well - - this remains to be seen.

all except the so6p upon casting izanagi and izanami has the "counter effect" in them.

itachi clearly says: "every jutsu has its weakness" (and i add, every jutsu has its ill effects somehow).
i might be wrong.


chao!!!
 

sarutobi01843

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If the first user of the jutsu was So6p and he used both yin and yang he used the perfect izanagi, now if we all remember correctly he SPLIT his power into his sons he split vitality and physical power to senju and spiritual and mental power to uchiha so in turn the uchiha have the eyes but the senju have the chakra in order to use a jutsu that the originator had both chakras for wouldnt it make sense that they need to combine the power again to use it??? yes the uchiha have the dna capable of using the jutsu but the senju have the chakra to use it and you cant do one without the other, i completely disagree with this theory because it goes against the manga based off of nothing but your own opinion which is fine but it doesnt make sense just because you think tobi isnt an uchiha, you dont know that, what tobi says goes with the whole history of ninjutsu and so6p and so forth what you say is only speculation and not backed up with any actual facts. Now if later on they say tobi isnt an uchiha or they say that the uchiha have the power then ok ill admit it but right now all your doing is speculating for now the uchiha DO NEED senju DNA for izanagi and izanami is still up in the air until they say what the requirements are then we dont know.
 

sjcoolz

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i think that what he said was right that full uchihas can use the tech with no problems but i think only the most full blooded ones like madara and itachi can use it without any injections of senju dna also i think madara and tobi can use it repeatedly cause the reningan can probably spam it and use it as much as the user wants so yea its goes both ways:izuna:
 

jabznaruto

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Stone tablet in the uchiha building says all of this!!! That doesnt explain how he knows just gives an opinion of the situation in which he could have known.
peace dude! let me answer you for blaze(or he could correct me).

i assume that your take would be "YOU NEED SENJU DNA" to perform izanagi and izanami (i did it for you since you don't directly say it).

and what is your take on itachi on using the kinjutsus?
i again assume, "itachi simply couldn't" (he doesnt have the senju dna).

well you could be right!
and i guess on these grounds:
1. only the so6p had used the kinjutsus perfectly (without drawbacks).
2. danzo and tobi are the only ones we know (and they are non-uchihas with the senju dna and sharingans) to perform the jutsus.
3. no uchiha that we know of had performed the forbidden arts (but note, they labelled them forbidden because of the effect).

but let us know your take dude! it would be cool. it should be directly coming from you!!!

now, im leaving this thoughts to you sarutobi01843:

1. how's shisuis jutsu to you? yup, we know Naruto used it unknowingly he had it (and he is a senju descendant). itachi prepared it too. BUT, BUT, stay with me...shisui's MS jutsu is SHISUI'S JUTSU - a "TRUE UCHIHA POWER". itachi, as we know, said one needs to have senju dna to use it. again, it is shisui's art as an uchiha. AND IT FREED ITACHI FROM EDO TENSEI.
2. itachi said "THE TRUE UCHIHA POWER". in this chap, he was referring to both izanagi and izanami. think deep my friend. IZANAGI and IZANAMI as true uchiha powers will "FREE SOULS" - kabuto's edo tensei's lowly souls..


yo blaze...thanks for letting me share these thoughts. feel free to add dude...

let's rock chap after chap itachi is still with us.
 

sarutobi01843

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peace dude! let me answer you for blaze(or he could correct me).

i assume that your take would be "YOU NEED SENJU DNA" to perform izanagi and izanami (i did it for you since you don't directly say it).

and what is your take on itachi on using the kinjutsus?
i again assume, "itachi simply couldn't" (he doesnt have the senju dna).

well you could be right!
and i guess on these grounds:
1. only the so6p had used the kinjutsus perfectly (without drawbacks).
2. danzo and tobi are the only ones we know (and they are non-uchihas with the senju dna and sharingans) to perform the jutsus.
3. no uchiha that we know of had performed the forbidden arts (but note, they labelled them forbidden because of the effect).

but let us know your take dude! it would be cool. it should be directly coming from you!!!

now, im leaving this thoughts to you sarutobi01843:

1. how's shisuis jutsu to you? yup, we know Naruto used it unknowingly he had it (and he is a senju descendant). itachi prepared it too. BUT, BUT, stay with me...shisui's MS jutsu is SHISUI'S JUTSU - a "TRUE UCHIHA POWER". itachi, as we know, said one needs to have senju dna to use it. again, it is shisui's art as an uchiha. AND IT FREED ITACHI FROM EDO TENSEI.
2. itachi said "THE TRUE UCHIHA POWER". in this chap, he was referring to both izanagi and izanami. think deep my friend. IZANAGI and IZANAMI as true uchiha powers will "FREE SOULS" - kabuto's edo tensei's lowly souls..


yo blaze...thanks for letting me share these thoughts. feel free to add dude...

let's rock chap after chap itachi is still with us.
Ok ill try to take this slow,
1. Itachi said in order to use it before the decade was done you need to have senju Chakra for proof here you go
2. Ive made it very clear no i dont agree with Blaze theory he is very free to have his own opinion and theory, and me and him have agreed on many other things, anyways,
Itachi was talking about in general due to the fact that kabuto was surprised by itachis skill level overcoming edo tensei but yet is underestimating them again but as it has been said in black and white tobi is madara and until the manga says he is not then i will stick to what it says, tobi IS an uchiha and he said it himself that you need senju DNA to complete izanagi, now if you read my previous post you would see my response to why i believe this to be true, now shisui's eye technique was his own not one developed nor used by so6p if you really want to see what i believe first read my previous post and then respond but the so6p and shisui are very different so comparing the situation is stupid but to be nice why is it that with senju DNA or chakra shisui's eye tech would be ready faster and that tech isnt anywhere near the class of izanagi the power of the senju has a direct effect on the uchiha and thus brings life to my point that in order to use a jutsu that the so6p used both powers would have to be reunited and then it would make it possible to use izanagi but dont act like if i didnt make myself clear in my last post and also izanami has yet to be explained so do me a favor and dont put your 2cents in when you have no facts or proof of what that tech does or the side effects other then loss of light to a sharingan when it is shown in the manga and explained then ill be more then happy to discuss it!!!! but farewell to you sir and goodday!!!!
 
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sarutobi01843

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and by the way blaze doesnt need you to fight his battles (not that this is a battle) but before you open your mouth do me a favor and do some research before you say crap like "Ill leave these thoughts to you" seriously c'mon naruto didnt use it itachi riggeed the crow to come out when it saw itachis ms knowing that sasuke would transplant his eyes to gain ems so once again goodbye and goodday :scorps:
 

MrLukyso

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You need senju DNA for this, it was said plenty of times, I mean for Izanagi, I won't tell anything about Izanami cause it's unkown jutsu. Izanagi requires both Senju and Uchiha to perform it, PEACE. You won't regret it, it was said by the man who can use this jutsu, and fight Madara vs Hashirama was for madara to get hands on Hashi powers.
 
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