Serious Scientific ??? Re: Genetics and Homosexuality.(serious responses only plz)

[YourOwnInability]

i think being gay is a choice that guys make

What about females?

Then to think this, you know nothing.

.Easy now, keep it civil.

i heard being gay is a fetish

Well hearing is not all that is needed.

I agree. I believe it's just a choice people make.

For instance, me being a Christian isn't genetic. It's my choice.

I'm not saying homosexuality is bad, nor is any other's beleifs. If you want to be gay, be gay. Want to believe in God, believe in him. Want to believe in nothing? God bless you! People should be allowed to believe what they want!

The jury is still out on this....

You see. This is just terrible for people to think. My choice is not to be gay, I didn't want this. Religion, and sexuality are two different things. You can't compare them.

i for one am not comparing them or anything...and as far as choice goes...sub-conscious decisions are made without you knowing anything and yet they are still choices...do you choose to breathe? to wake-up? to digest food? to bleed? how about to stop bodily function at all? The hind quarter of the brain controls more then it is given credit for.

Actually there has been links to homosexuality and genetics. I did a paper on homosexuality and whether its a sin or if its a choice or natural and even if its an argument of nature of nurture. Homosexuals (guys for this example) then to share similar genes as a women, which makes them very nuturing or caring as well as producing more estrogen than testosterone and visa versa with girls being homosexual. In any case, no its not a choice. I can't just say "OH!, I think Im going to like guys from now on." Because even if i said that, and wanted to, it would still make me uncomfortable or be unnatural FOR ME if I ended with another guy. Just as Homosexuals feel uncomfortable and unnatural when they try to have a relationship with someone of the opposite ***.

Hummmn what your speaking of I would like to read myself... but its sound like you are describing androgyny, which is the expression of both feminine and masculine traits...either way I would like to read your information, if you could give me link I would appreciate it.

Comparing religion and sexuality is quite .... Wrong .___. There is no comparison to be found

I agree..

In reality the instances of Homosexual interaction amounst animals were isolated insidence like a mother eating her offspring this was done by a homosexual scientist (the study). And even if it were identified to be normal, So would canabalism, rape, eating of infants, animals are not the same as higher level thinking humans. Just wanted to say that.

Isolated, Say What!.. umm ok .. Can you give me a link to these for reference?

agreed. Religion and philosophies are ideas, homosexuality is not

Homosexuality not an idea... hummmnnnn...This is kinda what I'm trying to understand...as sub-conscious decisions are made all the time with out conscious control over them...

Once again, people comparing homosexuality to; rape, murder, beasiality. Honey, "I don't do any of that sh*t."

No one said you did...

You see, when people that being gay is a choice they are implying it is something along the lines of for example: switching a light on or off. Being gay is no more a choice than being a man or a woman. It is there, it exists and cannot be chosen. You are either born straight or born gay.



Things aren't born to rape, be cannibals, or eat infants. They have nothing in common with sexual orientation at all. Humans are animals. We have the same instincts regardless of the level of our cognitive process

Bolded part is what I am working with.. being born something implies heredity

those are choices too....canabalist tribes are canibbles due to beliefs, people rape because they ar just they horrible and desperate and want to be in a situation where they are dominant and in control...unless there is something mentally wrong with them, but even then, those things are wrong by not only societies standards (depending on where you go) but also through human morality (not religious morality, this is different type of morality). being a homosexual is not against basic human morality as it doesnt hurt anyone in anyway, unless you are offended by it, then its only wrong with you because youre uncomfortable with it

which stands to reason that it is a sub-conscious thing as it's not hereditary or a controlled choice but its is prevalent at birth or at least the infantile stages.....

Oh, no. Same *** marriage! We're all going to have to turn gay now! FML

Marriage is something else entirely... although I am not against same *** marriage... it has more to do with the head of household and taxation issues..which if you have dependent then you should be able to claim them regardless of sexual preference..

He knows nothing, ignore him.

OP they haven't identified the gene that causes plenty of other things, can you even conprehend the amount of genes we have?

. I am capable of vast amounts of comprehension ....especially when it comes to refraining from judgement of other life forms...thank you very much...
also can YOU comprehend infinity?

In terms of genes I say it's all about time. We've got a long way to go to cover genetics and we aren't going to be finished any time soon at all. In terms of the genome, I say it is only a matter of time. Biological scientific discoveries are being discovered and analysed daily so it is only a matter of timing on this one for the actual genome to be identified.

I feel the same way, but that doesn't stop people from using science to explain things, they themselves don't understand

Exactly. It's believed humans have over 20,000 genes in there body.

Evolutionarily speaking, if homosexuality was solely a genetic trait, scientists would expect the trait to eventually disappear because homosexuals wouldn't be expected to reproduce."

I would agree with this if it wasn't for atavism and the fact that it causes traits to skip generations....also the fact that societies through out the expansiveness of time have shown homosexual traits, couplings, and acceptance...

Thanks for the feed back keep it coming..

 

[King Of Crows]

You don't quite understand.

Intelligent people are manipulative by nature... because they are smart enough to get by with it where the average person tried, failed, and gave up long ago. Intelligence is heavily linked to genetics.

Yet, genetics do not dictate intelligence.

Most things have a correlation with genetic factors, from the body type you find attractive to the scent of perfume you find most appealing; from the jobs you will enjoy to the pets you keep - but correlation does not imply causation.

There are key links between genetics and psychology. In nonlinear math and the systems constructed as models of real-world environments, there are many 'constants' - many small, even arbitrary, starting principles that you found your model off of. The initial state of these has very radical consequences for the overall function and progress of the model. A minor alteration or deviation here or there in a single factor can completely change the shape and/or function of your model.

Genetics is important, because it sets these baselines - some of which can never be modified. If a chemical receptor in your brain is different because your genetics, for whatever reason, make it differently - the function of the brain is forever altered and will forever affect that person. This is a problem psychiatric therapies run into... not only can people have different topological and logical neurology, but they can also have different anatomical neurology that means their neurons respond differently to the same chemical (including chemicals that the brain produces... and were 'designed' to work with the 'original' neuron design).

I understand and agree with you on this, I had just thought that you were implying that if someone were born gay then it would be possible for others to be born alcoholics or born to become involved with domestic violence ( using the examples you provided in your earlier quote).

My statement about psychological and biological factors being chasms apart was quite drastic on my part, and I realised this as I had read the case study you had provided, which I thank you for by the way.

 

[Souji]

Hm. I can't make a proper comment because it's not my field of study. If a gene does indeed cause homosexuality, then so be it. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. I want to see concrete proof from either hypothesis regardless. But we cannot also deny the social aspect that influences homosexuality.

 

[Aim64C]

I understand and agree with you on this, I had just thought that you were implying that if someone were born gay then it would be possible for others to be born alcoholics or born to become involved with domestic violence ( using the examples you provided in your earlier quote).

My statement about psychological and biological factors being chasms apart was quite drastic on my part, and I realised this as I had read the case study you had provided, which I thank you for by the way.

I was jumping the gun and getting into legal precedents.

"If people can be born gay, and it's not their fault... can we blame pedophiles?"

Which is why I don't think a legal distinction needs to ever be made regarding sexual orientation's origins. Remember that laws are rarely written based upon what is true - they are written based upon what is perceived.

Or what benefits the interest of lobbyists. But that's another issue.

 

[King Of Crows]

I was jumping the gun and getting into legal precedents.

"If people can be born gay, and it's not their fault... can we blame pedophiles?"

Which is why I don't think a legal distinction needs to ever be made regarding sexual orientation's origins. Remember that laws are rarely written based upon what is true - they are written based upon what is perceived.

Or what benefits the interest of lobbyists. But that's another issue.

That would be a very heated topic, which is why I agree that legal precedents should keep out of it. There would be more trouble and hassle than the overall outcome could ever hope to quell.

 

[YowYan]

i think being gay is a choice that guys make

You're not thinking.

 

[FuChomei]

Homosexuality is not a choice, though I do have lesbian aunt in my family I don't think that I got the 'gay-gene' from her. I don't think that there is a point of finding a homosexual gene I mean let the gays run free

 

[King Of Crows]

You're not thinking.

Little late to the party Where were you buddy, I was expecting you to show up :yayy:

 

[YowYan]

Little late to the party Where were you buddy, I was expecting you to show up :yayy:

I was jogging with a mate ;p We encountered some wild horses in the woods lmao. My mate almost tried to mount one, as they were pretty relaxed around humans.

 

[King Of Crows]

I was jogging with a mate ;p We encountered some wild horses in the woods lmao. My mate almost tried to mount one, as they were pretty relaxed around humans.

I got lost whilst jogging in the countryside and ended up getting chased by a cow.... I also got lost and ended up 4 miles away from my Dad's house

 

[YowYan]

I got lost whilst jogging in the countryside and ended up getting chased by a cow.... I also got lost and ended up 4 miles away from my Dad's house

LOL adventure time. xD

 

[FuChomei]

I got lost whilst jogging in the countryside and ended up getting chased by a cow.... I also got lost and ended up 4 miles away from my Dad's house

How in the hell do you get chased down by a cow?

You guys should stick to the subject

 

[King Of Crows]

LOL adventure time. xD

It was quite the adventure, I ended up running through some field and had to find a farmer who would give me directions XD, it was worse because I had to run on the road the whole way back :'O

How in the hell do you get chased down by a cow?

You guys should stick to the subject

Well I was running through some woods along a path. At the end there was just a gate that lead into a field with a hell of a lot of cows so I was thinking it would be all right to just run through the field ( I kept my distance ). When I got to about halfway, one of the cows like looked at me as if to say: " Run, mother****er moo" and just charged.

Okay enough !! We stay on track now

 

[YourOwnInability]

There are multiple factors involved.

To say that homosexuality is entirely genetic is to, by extension, assign many elements of our society a purely genetic pretext that simply doesn't fit. What does this say about phobias? Fetishes (the man-boy love association would be quick to jump on that one)? Alcoholism? Domestic violence/abuse? The list of problem-subjects with assigning behavioral cause to genetics is very, very long.

However, to downplay the role of genetics is a mistake. I, myself, am an example of this. Both of my parents were quite intelligent people. My grandparents were all intelligent (though not necessarily educated). Predictably, I'm quite intelligent, as are my younger brothers (with my youngest brother potentially sitting atop the most raw potential of us all).

But that's only a portion of the story. I learn quickly, yes - but it is that my parents were constantly participating in my life and willing to teach me things which allowed me (and my brothers) to learn as much as we did.

Further, and even darker - is that I am very observant and capable of being extremely manipulative. I can see how to get into someone's head and implant thoughts, ideas, etc into their head. It is my culture and upbringing that keeps me from relying upon this. Which is a good thing - because my mentality and behavior are much more suceptible to breeding serial killers and other such monstrosities.

To reduce the issue to making it a "choice," as if one has picked from a menu; or to making it "born this way," as if one has no free will apart from their genetics... is just silly.

I didn't wake up one day and say: "Wow, I really like girls!" It's something that developed, and a development I have been in agreement with.

To hold homosexuality to a different standard is wrong. People, for various reasons, develop a sense of being homosexual and find themselves in agreement or conflict with it. Just like heterosexuals do.

There's no 'problem' unless someone feels they want to make a change in their life. Should that be the case, it's perfectly fine for them to take steps and to seek council to bring about the change they feel is appropriate.

the bolded part: I feel and understand your pain...
to the rest of your post ...I knew that there were similar minded individuals out there and that I just needed to keep looking for them.. so thanks for your post so far they have been very helpful... I think we both observe more then we are willing to talk about..

I'm sorry, I don't understand. No one wakes up and goes: "I really like boys/girls!" It's something you're born with..

Civility please..

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you on that one. The elements you perceive as purely genetic pretext, by the extension that homosexuality is, tend to be more psychological that genetic. Psychological and genetic factors are chasms apart from one another.



It's quite the interesting read. I encourage you to go for it yourself xP

I was going to comment but I see you explained your self later on in then thread so...

That theory doesn't work.

A species doesn't evolve. Individuals do.

But, The Red Queen must be served... and so she is:

You must be registered for see links

Red Queen dynamics can explain the genetic bias for male homosexuality.

Although female homosexuality shows no discernable genetic trend (though there were some hormone studies done that indicate hormone levels during fetus development can bias sexual orientation) - there doesn't necessarily have to be a genetic grounds for all behavior. The fact that many women who engage in homosexual behavior tend to be bisexual on the whole points more toward social factors than genetic.

Thanks for the link...

Oh, I was saying it might be the opposite and merely told the theory. I hold no ground to it being true, but I do find multiple theories on this matter scintillating.

I know a species does not evolve, I should have specified my point across more clearly and I apologise for not doing so and filling you with false implications as to what my beliefs are on the matter :/

I agree with the possibility of it being the opposite as its seem to be the case in at the height of a societies role in history ...is where you often find the examples of homosexuality left for future generations to learn about....I for one learned of homosexual behavior from my learning and researching the ancient Roman and Greek civilizations.... Also for those reading this thread this,this individuals post is a fine example of being civil...

Species evolve all the time. We adapt to are surroundings, making changes within the self, no matter physically or mentally changed.

Species as a whole evolve....Ummn no unless it is the species place in the environment that your are speaking of then yes the whole does evolve...but this pertains to Ecology and that is not what we are talking about..

people arent born gay, neither do they choose to be gay, its life and how they are brought up, interact how they see things. people misunderstand that if you are born gay then if that is or isnt true then why in the hell do "some" feel that its wrong to be gay and that they do and up going straight. next up women go lesbian they are born it as women do choose this aka bad relationships, bad background etc,

for the most part I would agree but I am not a fan of the "nurturing" aspect of life, let alone in homosexuality as I personally believe your environment doesn't make you who you are...

Does anyone really care?
I personally don't give two shits why gays are gay.
Even if you could prove that it was genetic you know what the next step would be?
Some idiot trying to "cure" it. Like how some psychologists are currently trying to do.
The gay community and its supporters would strongly protest such research because to them it is probably grossly offensive.
This is like the big bang debate. Who cares? Some things really just don't matter and this is one of them.

I understand your post that is why it is the 5th choice on the poll...However with out understanding one can not achieve acceptance..acceptance of the things we do not understand is not something humans as a whole have in abundance..also I am not interested in the origin of homosexuality as such, as I am interested in helping people realize that using science as a "crutch" for that which they do not understand is just as bad as fearing the unknown...If truth is the one true thing. Then saying something is genetic when it is not is what gets you to your point....I also understand your point about "curing" and would agree that it would most likely happen but again, those using science to explain what they don't understand to others who don't understand is the same as "the blind leading the blind" to say the least

The species as a whole do not. It is the individuals who adapt to the changes whilst those who cannot, die. Which leave the certain individuals to pass on their traits onto the offspring.

This would be a good point if not for the understanding of recessive genes and atavism...

Actually, I'm going to agree with you here. Sooner or later though, that trait passed on will fade through generations. Concluding..

you are forgeting atavism and recessive genes..

That's not how evolution works. Recessive genes and mutations happen.

thank you

An examination of family pedigrees revealed that gay men had more homosexual male relatives through maternal than through paternal lineages, suggesting a linkage to the X chromosome. Dean Hamer found such an association at region Xq28. If male sexual orientation was influenced by a gene on Xq28, then gay brothers should share more than 50% of their alleles at this region, whereas their heterosexual brothers should share less than 50% of their alleles. In the absence of such an association, then both types of brothers should display 50% allele sharing. An analysis of 40 pairs of gay brothers and found that they shared 82% of their alleles in the Xq28 region, which was much greater than the 50% allele sharing that would be expected by chance. However, a follow-up study by the same research group, using 32 pairs of gay brothers and found only 67% allele sharing, which was much closer to the 50% expected by chance. Attempts by Rice et al. to repeat the Hamer study resulted in only 46% allele sharing, insignificantly different from chance, contradicting the Hamer results. At the same time, an unpublished study by Alan Sanders (University of Chicago) corroborated the Rice results. Ultimately, no gene or gene product from the Xq28 region was ever identified that affected sexual orientation. When Jonathan Marks (an evolutionary biologist) asked Hamer what percentage of homosexuality he thought his results explained, his answer was that he thought it explained 5% of male homosexuality. Marks' response was, "There is no science other than behavioral genetics in which you can leave 97.5% of a phenomenon unexplained and get headlines."

This is very interesting were did it come from & may I have a link please...

You don't quite understand.

Intelligent people are manipulative by nature... because they are smart enough to get by with it where the average person tried, failed, and gave up long ago. Intelligence is heavily linked to genetics.

Yet, genetics do not dictate intelligence.

Most things have a correlation with genetic factors, from the body type you find attractive to the scent of perfume you find most appealing; from the jobs you will enjoy to the pets you keep - but correlation does not imply causation.

There are key links between genetics and psychology. In nonlinear math and the systems constructed as models of real-world environments, there are many 'constants' - many small, even arbitrary, starting principles that you found your model off of. The initial state of these has very radical consequences for the overall function and progress of the model. A minor alteration or deviation here or there in a single factor can completely change the shape and/or function of your model.

Genetics is important, because it sets these baselines - some of which can never be modified. If a chemical receptor in your brain is different because your genetics, for whatever reason, make it differently - the function of the brain is forever altered and will forever affect that person. This is a problem psychiatric therapies run into... not only can people have different topological and logical neurology, but they can also have different anatomical neurology that means their neurons respond differently to the same chemical (including chemicals that the brain produces... and were 'designed' to work with the 'original' neuron design).

bolded part is so true it is not even funny and the only thing that stems that is one's upbringing I have the same affliction, to the rest of your post an emphatic EXACTLY.....The fact that it can not be cleanly placed in one side or the other of a category is what leads me to the sub-conscious theory...

 

[sagedog]

Why are there so many sexual preferance threads poppin up in NB? Oh I apologize forgot we havent had new manga in a while. Carry on.

 

[King Of Crows]

I agree with the possibility of it being the opposite as its seem to be the case in at the height of a societies role in history ...is where you often find the examples of homosexuality left for future generations to learn about....I for one learned of homosexual behavior from my learning and researching the ancient Roman and Greek civilizations.... Also for those reading this thread this,this individuals post is a fine example of being civil...
...

Thank you :yayy: Also, I adore ancient greek culture and architecture ( as well roman of course ) The best days of my life were travelling around Athens, oh god those buildings were sexy

 

[avenged sevenfold]

Being gay is coded in the DNA of a gay person. The chromosomes in the DNA have made that person gay. I am not hating or disrespecting anyone who is gay but it is coded in DNA as far as I am aware it is not a choice. It is simply a matter of who you like.

 

[King Of Crows]

Being gay is coded in the DNA of a gay person. The chromosomes in the DNA have made that person gay. I am not hating or disrespecting anyone who is gay but it is coded in DNA as far as I am aware it is not a choice. It is simply a matter of who you like.

I don't see how that would offend any gay people If anything they would be against people who say that being gay is a choice. So good job !

 

[avenged sevenfold]

I don't see how that would offend any gay people If anything they would be against people who say that being gay is a choice. So good job !

Fair point and thank you for the compliment. I shall rep you

 

[YourOwnInability]

You don't quite understand.

Intelligent people are manipulative by nature... because they are smart enough to get by with it where the average person tried, failed, and gave up long ago. Intelligence is heavily linked to genetics.

Yet, genetics do not dictate intelligence.

Most things have a correlation with genetic factors, from the body type you find attractive to the scent of perfume you find most appealing; from the jobs you will enjoy to the pets you keep - but correlation does not imply causation.

There are key links between genetics and psychology. In nonlinear math and the systems constructed as models of real-world environments, there are many 'constants' - many small, even arbitrary, starting principles that you found your model off of. The initial state of these has very radical consequences for the overall function and progress of the model. A minor alteration or deviation here or there in a single factor can completely change the shape and/or function of your model.

Genetics is important, because it sets these baselines - some of which can never be modified. If a chemical receptor in your brain is different because your genetics, for whatever reason, make it differently - the function of the brain is forever altered and will forever affect that person. This is a problem psychiatric therapies run into... not only can people have different topological and logical neurology, but they can also have different anatomical neurology that means their neurons respond differently to the same chemical (including chemicals that the brain produces... and were 'designed' to work with the 'original' neuron design).

EXACTLY

Hm. I can't make a proper comment because it's not my field of study. If a gene does indeed cause homosexuality, then so be it. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. I want to see concrete proof from either hypothesis regardless. But we cannot also deny the social aspect that influences homosexuality.

We are not forgetting, but thanks for the reminder!

I was jumping the gun and getting into legal precedents.

"If people can be born gay, and it's not their fault... can we blame pedophiles?"

Which is why I don't think a legal distinction needs to ever be made regarding sexual orientation's origins. Remember that laws are rarely written based upon what is true - they are written based upon what is perceived.

Or what benefits the interest of lobbyists. But that's another issue.

Exactly. This is also psychologically speaking the same subject though...It is easy for people to accept laws as being the truth or just thing do to if the subject matter is beyond their comprehension. but it is still following a blind person...LOL

That would be a very heated topic, which is why I agree that legal precedents should keep out of it. There would be more trouble and hassle than the overall outcome could ever hope to quell.

EXACTLY...this is also why same *** marriage is such a heated subject...I say if you are willing to take "care" of an individual for the rest of your life then you should get tax deductions for it, the fact of biological procreation has nothing to do with it, or "proper" upbringing issues with same *** households...all the major issues that people have with same *** marriages really have nothing to do with the issue of marriage rights at all..

Homosexuality is not a choice, though I do have lesbian aunt in my family I don't think that I got the 'gay-gene' from her. I don't think that there is a point of finding a homosexual gene I mean let the gays run free

...Most of the people who are actively engaging in this thread would not keep the "gays" from running free anyway, I am just tired of people using science or anything for that matter to justify something they don't understand...answer truthfully and move on..you don't know why you are gay leave it at that,instead of saying its a genetic thing or that you were born this way .. all of us are born alone and die alone (even in a room full of people,even if some dies or is born at the same time, you still do it alone. the only exception would be Siamese twins and that is still pushing it honestly ( yet people still try to justify something they can't explain with some large "deity"/"gov"etc, as being the justified reason for something and the ignorant masses accept it as the reason when in truth there probably isn't a single reason...the most powerful phrase of 4 words is "I do not know."
believe it or not its is just as acceptable as anything else...you do not need a reason to be anything confidentially speaking...

Why are there so many sexual preferance threads poppin up in NB? Oh I apologize forgot we havent had new manga in a while. Carry on.

News paper articles about the problems of acceptance for multi-cultural parents and the over use of the genetic reason for being gay when there is no proof of it being a genetic thing...


I will re-iterate ladies and gentleman I am not interested in the origins of homosexuality unless some one can provide proof of it. I am interested in helping people to understand themselves and to help the world learn to stop making excuses for things they do not understand for a false acceptance, true acceptance is only achieved through understanding.. that means learning and knowing about how things work so that you can then properly identify them and move on to the next unknown. when an item,idea,etc can not be "cleanly" placed into a category, then a new category is needed..it is the dynamic of growth that we are working with here...as that comes also from understanding ( not all tailed beast are the same creature...(psychological schema reference))..