Senjus are not useless without mokuton so Uchihas are not useless without their eyes

[Urda]

Yes but the Uchihas aren't useless without the Sharingan is my point.

They are known for the Sharingan. Without it, they are nobodies. :|

Only Hashirama has Wood Release. The entire Senju Clan never had Wood Release and they was known to be a powerful clan.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Uchiha Taijima used his sharingan vs Senju Butsuma.

As far as we know, no he did not.

Mokuton for Senju is not like Sharingan for Uchiha.
EMS would be more like Mokuton.

True I'll give you that but even before Hashirama's time, there could've been another mokuton user.

Madara and Izuna were probably not the first to unlock MS. Seeing as they grew up in wartime.

Manga says that they were the first. I already posted the page on the OP.
That page you showed was during a time that Itachi told lot of lies to Sasuke. So its not a really trustworthy page.

Itachi also told at one time (when he wasnt lying to Sasuke anymore), that the Uchiha have widely used Izanagi till it caused problems (several Uchiha fighting among the results of the genjutsu) and some uzed Izanami against their own kind for this reason.

That could be before Madara Uchiha awakened the mangekyo sharingan. Because Madara and the Uchihas were still in war during the time he had EMS too.

Anyway, Uchiha are not completely useless without sharingan, but the strength of their clan relies a lot more on sharingan, than the Senju do on Mokuton.

I can agree with this but they are still stronger than the average jounin without it.

They are known for the Sharingan. Without it, they are nobodies. :|

Only Hashirama has Wood Release. The entire Senju Clan never had Wood Release and they was known to be a powerful clan.

How are they nobodies? Look at Itachi's skill without the sharinagn, you can't call that a nobody.
They have jutsus that don't require a sharingan you know :|

 

[Urda]

As far as we know, no he did not.

True I'll give you that but even before Hashirama's time, there could've been another mokuton user.

Manga says that they were the first. I already posted the page on the OP.
That page you showed was during a time that Itachi told lot of lies to Sasuke. So its not a really trustworthy page.

That could be before Madara Uchiha awakened the mangekyo sharingan. Because Madara and the Uchihas were still in war during the time he had EMS too.

I can agree with this but they are still stronger than the average jounin without it.


How are they nobodies? Look at Itachi's skill without the Sharingan, you can't call that a nobody.
They have jutsus that doesn't require a sharing you know :|

Bro, give it a rest. :|

No one is calling them useless, but their power would have decreased drastically if they didn't have the Sharingan. They wouldn't be on the same level as Senju if that Manga itself stated they were rivials.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Bro, give it a rest. :|

No one is calling them useless, but their power would have decreased drastically if they didn't have the Sharingan. They wouldn't be on the same level as Senju if that Manga itself stated they were rivials.

I'm not saying that they are senju are all equal to Uchihas without their eyes, but I'm emphasizing that they are not useless without them.
If you are not calling them useless, then what are you arguing? :|

 

[SumnNarutoRelated]

even mentioning Wood Release and Senju in the same sentence is like saying all sayians could turn SSJ pre Goku era


Wood Release is as rare to the Senju as Rinnegan is rare to Uchiha

 

[Meowazziel]

As far as we know, no he did not.

I showed a link that he did use sharingan in that fight.
So yeah he did.

The page you showed in the OP regarding MS doesnt have to be fact.
It was during a time that Itachi showed lot of lies to Sasuke.
Its likely that during war time, lot of people unlocked MS.
As in its possible that it happened before Madara (not impossible that he was the first though, but I find it unlikely).
Also there is the possible case of Indra and other Indra reincarnations before Madara, who could have accomplished the feat.

I mentioned a story from Itachi to Sasuke about the overkill on Izanagi users.
This was during a time that he stopped lying to Sasuke.

You messed up a part of your quote in post #22.
Now it looks like you say that this was during a time that Itachi lied, which is incorrect.

If someone not all that much before Hashirama had wood release, than I think we would have heard about that person.
Just as if someone before Madara had EMS or Rinnegan, we would have probably heard about that person. Likely Indra had EMS (without the need of implanting eyes back than) or something like that. As he has shown Perfect Susanoo.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

even mentioning Wood Release and Senju in the same sentence is like saying all sayians could turn SSJ pre Goku era

There was according to Vegeta.

Wood Release is as rare to the Senju as Rinnegan is rare to Uchiha

It's rare but it still existed. It's not rinnegan rare, it's more Eternal mangekyo sharingan rare. Rinnegan was only awakened by two Uchihas since the dawn of time. wood release art was passed down to a few people who were able to use them.

 

[Urda]

I'm not saying that they are Senju are all equal to Uchihas without their eyes, but I'm emphasizing that they are not useless without them.
If you are not calling them useless, then what are you arguing? :|

I'm refuting the BS. :|

All you been doing is speculating and denying facts. You even claim the facts weren't trustworthy. :|

Also, you keep including individuals talent. It's not about what they could do. It's what the Clan can do as a whole.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I showed a link that he did.
So yeah he did.

You actually didn't. I'm looking at it now. My OP shows Taijima attacking the other senju without his sharingan.

The page you showed in the OP regarding MS doesnt have to be fact.
It was during a time that Itachi showed lot of lies to Sasuke.
Its likely that during war time, lot of people unlocked MS.

No not at all. You can't just say that they weren't facts either because you think that. When madara had EMS there were still war times, you have to remember that. And if a lot of Uchihas had MS then there is no way in hell that the clan would be wiped out in one night during the massacre and there is no way in hell Madara would be the clan leader.

As in its possible that it happened before Madara (not impossible that he was the first though, but I find it unlikely).
Also there is the possible case of Indra and other Indra reincarnations before Madara, who could have accomplished the feat.

Indra was not an Uchiha, he was an ootosuki. We only guess he had the mangekyo sharingan because he had Complete Susanoo. Indra didn't just have Uchiha chakra, he inherited his father's chakra as well.

I mentioned a story from Itachi to Sasuke about the overkill on Izanagi users.

Before Madara's time.

This was during a time that he stopped lying to Sasuke.

Itachi wasn't lying about his own knowledge of Madara's flashback. Otherwise Madara being the leader of the clan and Izuna being the second strongest is a lie too.

If someone not all that much before Hashirama had wood release, than I think we would have heard about that person.
Just as if someone before Madara had EMS or Rinnegan, we would have probably heard about that person.

Kishi never focused on the Senjus. We don't know any senju's besides hashirama's brothers and father.
So of course we won't know, it was written on the databook. That comparison won't work here.
The manga did say that Madara was the first to gain eternal mangekyo too while other Uchihas tried and failed.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

That wasn't stated anywhere in the manga. We can't assume that 8 gates is for senju because it seems right to us. I'm going by what we know and confirmed.


I'm talking exactly about Itachi and Sasuke as well. Uchihas still lived on the outside of the village.
Stuff like crow clone technique is nothing of konoha and the senjus. Don't forget that Madara and Hashirama established the konoha system, so you can't give credit to only one group.
Uchihas spit out high level A rank firestyle techniques and that's a ninjutsu that doesn't require the sharingan. Look at Itachi's taijutsu it's outstanding and one of the best in the series.
So Senjus have a thousands skills yeah whatever but the Uchihas never fell short in these categories too.


That was Tobirama's scroll not Hashirama. He invented the technique so no, It doesn't work that way. What we saw against Madara is what we get.


Well Itachi and Sasuke are both part of Uchihas, we can't neglect that too. The manga has been clear in several cases. We've seen many examples of this in the chuunin exam and Itachi.
Uchiha kinjutsus are no joke too and it didn't take a sharingan to use Uchiha flame formation did it?

that scroll WAS hashirama's...it's called the 1st hokage's scroll of seals...
hashirama senju was well versed in all areas of ninjutsu...
he could use all 5 nature transformations unlike madara uchiha...
he was great at sealing jutsu and genjutsu and medical ninjutsu and even barrier ninjutsu as seen below:

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[Meowazziel]

You actually didn't. I'm looking at it now. My OP shows Taijima attacking the other senju without his sharingan.


No not at all. You can't just say that they weren't facts either because you think that. When madara had EMS there were still war times, you have to remember that. And if a lot of Uchihas had MS then there is no way in hell that the clan would be wiped out in one night during the massacre and there is no way in hell Madara would be the clan leader.

Indra was not an Uchiha, he was an ootosuki. We only guess he had the mangekyo sharingan because he had Complete Susanoo. Indra didn't just have Uchiha chakra, he inherited his father's chakra as well.

Before Madara's time.

Itachi wasn't lying about his own knowledge of Madara's flashback. Otherwise Madara being the leader of the clan and Izuna being the second strongest is a lie too.


Kishi never focused on the Senjus. We don't know any senju's besides hashirama's brothers and father.
So of course we won't know, it was written on the databook. That comparison won't work here.
The manga did say that Madara was the first to gain eternal mangekyo too while other Uchihas tried and failed.

You read my answers in a black and white way without my nuances. That is basically misreading.
So you are not actually replying to what I have said. That makes it difficult to discuss.

Some examples. I said that it doesnt have to be 100% a fact. It can also be not a fact, because it was during a time that Itachi lied a lot, so not everything has to be trustworthy. In a lying story, not everything has to be a lie.
Also it is not the same as Madara being the clan leader being a lie, because we know from other reliable sources, that he indeed was the clan leader.

Also your scan didnt show that he didnt use sharingan. Thats not visible
Besides he had the eye active, as shown in my link. So its more likely that he did than that he didnt.
Also your point was that he could fight Butsuma without Sharingan, but he already had it activated, before he asked Madara if they should go 3v3 against them. So he did need it in that battle, otherwise he wouldnt activate it before going 3v3.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I'm refuting the BS. :|

All you been doing is speculating and denying facts. You even claim the facts weren't trustworthy. :|

Also, you keep including individuals talent. It's not about what they could do. It's what the Clan can do as a whole.

Denying what? :|

Firstyle jutsu is a high level ninjutsu that was included on the databook, is that sharingan technique now?

Individual talents okay fine, every uchiha have individual usage of ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. All of them are different but they're still high level, right?

Itachi-crow clone/summoning. water clone, shuriken kinjutsu and his taijutsu<---Still high level
Sasuke-Hawk summoning, taijutsu, chidori variants, and his sword kinjutsu<----Still high level and no sharingan
Madara-blind his taijutsu was amazing, shadow clone technique after izanago transcript, Gunbai fan, sword kinjustu<----High level
Shishui---crow clone technique, firestyle blade kinjustu, inventor of the shuushsin technique<-----Didn't need a sharingan to invent that right?

So do you see where I'm coming from here? The sharingan makes Uchiha's genjutsu un-parallel, but saying that Uchihas wouldn't have the same talent in ninjutsu/taijutsu is a far cry from true. Especially when Hashirama and Madara as kids were doing all these techniques without mokuotn or sharingan being present.

 

[Urda]

You read my answers in a black and white way without my nuances. That is basically misreading.
So you are not actually replying to what I have said. That makes it difficult to discuss.

Some examples. I said that it doesnt have to be 100% a fact. It can also be not a fact, because it was during a time that Itachi lied a lot, so not everything has to be trustworthy. In a lying story, not everything has to be a lie.
Also it is not the same as Madara being the clan leader being a lie, because we know from other reliable sources, that he indeed was the clan leader.

Also your scan didnt show that he didnt use sharingan. Thats not visible
Besides he had the eye active, as shown in my link. So its more likely that he did than that he didnt.
Also your point was that he could fight Butsuma without Sharingan, but he already had it activated, before he asked Madara if they should go 3v3 against them. So he did need it in that battle, otherwise he wouldnt activate it before going 3v3.

He is a Uchiha lover.

Give it up. This is nothing more than a bait thread.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

You read my answers in a black and white way without my nuances. That is basically misreading.
So you are not actually replying to what I have said. That makes it difficult to discuss.

Some examples. I said that it doesnt have to be 100% a fact. It can also be not a fact, because it was during a time that Itachi lied a lot, so not everything has to be trustworthy. In a lying story, not everything has to be a lie.
Also it is not the same as Madara being the clan leader being a lie, because we know from other reliable sources, that he indeed was the clan leader.

Also your scan didnt show that he didnt use sharingan. Thats not visible
Besides he had the eye active, as shown in my link. So its more likely that he did than that he didnt.
Also your point was that he could fight Butsuma without Sharingan, but he already had it activated, before he asked Madara if they should go 3v3 against them. So he did need it in that battle, otherwise he wouldnt activate it before going 3v3.

I see the scan now on the last page (my mistake) and I don't know at what point he used his sharingan but screw it. That's not important.

I completely read what you said and you're using a point were you felt Itachi was lying as an excuse. Itachi has no reason to lie to Sasuke about Madara. If Itachi was telling the truth about Madara being the leader and all that jazz, then why would Madara/Izuna being the first to awaken the mangekyo be a lie when it was during the same story line?
Tobi said that the only thing he lied about was being evil, the rest of the Madara story is completely true, you just can't hand pick what's true in the story and what's not. There was not even a mention of another mangekyo sharinagn user besides Izuna and Madara during that time too.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

He is a Uchiha lover.

Give it up. This is nothing more than a bait thread.

The worst part about it is that not only did you refuse to read, you can't even tell me what the point of this thread is about.
This is not an Uchiha vs Senju thread, and if that's what you've been think about the whole time then you should just quit while you're ahead.

 

[Meowazziel]

I see the scan now on the last page (my mistake) and I don't know at what point he used his sharingan but screw it. That's not important.

I completely read what you said and you're using a point were you felt Itachi was lying as an excuse. Itachi has no reason to lie to Sasuke about Madara. If Itachi was telling the truth about Madara being the leader and all that jazz, then why would Madara/Izuna being the first to awaken the mangekyo be a lie when it was during the same story line?
Tobi said that the only thing he lied about was being evil, the rest of the Madara story is completely true, you just can't hand pick what's true in the story and what's not. There was not even a mention of another mangekyo sharinagn user besides Izuna and Madara during that time too.

Thanks for acknowledging.

I didnt handpick btw.
I just pointed out possibilities and also mentioned that it could be both true or not true, that they were the first.
Not that it could only be not true. I acknowledged that it could also be true.

During the lies, it was about Itachi lying to Sasuke that he wanted to steal his eyes, just like Madara did to Izuna in Itachis story.
Later from other sources, we know Madara didnt steal them. So the stealing part was a lie.
The MS story about Madara and Izuna has at least part lies. Used as a buildup to make Sasuke believe that Itachi wanted to gain EMS like Madara (which Itachi wasnt aiming for).
That makes a claim like Madara and Izuna being the first, more unreliable, than from a non lying source for example. Sure it can be true that they were the first, but its not something that we can assume is 100% fact. Its uncertain.

That they were leading the clan is not a lie, as we have other sources that can confirm.

Also as said, in a lie, there can be truths.
I believe Kabuto said something like that about Itachi.
That it makes a better lie, to tell a half lie.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Without occular power as assistant Senju is stronger than Uchiha as they could learn anything and not hindered or relied on one natural advantage Uchiha have(Sharingan).

But not to say no Uchiha eager to learn many jutsus and being lazy and only relied on their eyes power.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Thanks for acknowledging.

I didnt handpick btw.
I just pointed out possibilities and also mentioned that it could be both true or not true, that they were the first.
Not that it could only be not true. I acknowledged that it could also be true.

During the lies, it was about Itachi lying to Sasuke that he wanted to steal his eyes, just like Madara did to Izuna in Itachis story.
Later from other sources, we know Madara didnt steal them. So the stealing part was a lie.
The MS story about Madara and Izuna has at least part lies. Used as a buildup to make Sasuke believe that Itachi wanted to gain EMS like Madara (which Itachi wasnt aiming for).
That makes a claim like Madara and Izuna being the first, more unreliable, than from a non lying source for example. Sure it can be true that they were the first, but its not something that we can assume is 100% fact. Its uncertain.

That they were leading the clan is not a lie, as we have other sources that can confirm.

Also as said, in a lie, there can be truths.
I believe Kabuto said something like that about Itachi.
That it makes a better lie, to tell a half lie.

Well fair enough on that point but then we also have to take into account the possibilities of there actually being other MS users in the clan and that's the perspective that I'm looking at.
For their to be another MS user, that would mean there is some on else in the clan that was as strong as Madara, Izuna, Tobirama, and Hashirama at that point. Right?
Because the only thing that would set Madara from the rest of the Uchiha's is the Mangekyo sharingan because Izuna was said to be on par with his brother when they both awakened theirs.
So you start to question on how would the Uchihas lose to the senju back then or how can a single ms user take out several other ms user during the uchiha massacre?
It doesn't seem possible that there was a mangekyo sharingan during MS Madara's time as much as there wasn't another MS user to oppose Itachi during the Uchiha massacre.

Without occular power as assistant Senju is stronger than Uchiha as they could learn anything and not hindered or relied on one natural advantage Uchiha have(Sharingan).

But not to say no Uchiha eager to learn many jutsus and being lazy and only relied on their eyes power.

It's not an Uchiha vs Senju thread. I was making a point that Uchiha's didn't always depend on their sharingan during battle and they were able to hang with a high level clan too in terms of skills.

 

[Urda]

The worst part about it is that not only did you refuse to read, you can't even tell me what the point of this thread is about.
This is not an Uchiha vs Senju thread, and if that's what you've been thinking about the whole time then you should just quit while you're ahead.

Sigh

Tittle: Senjus are not useless without mokuton so Uchihas are not useless without their eyes[/COLOR]

Chopping up your whole post:

I don't know why people think that Uchihas are useless without their eyes, to me it's like saying Senju's are useless without mokuton. They always depend on it. Uchihas have used amazing firestyle technique and other stuff like a barrier without their eyes.

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No one said they were useless. Even if they did, I gave proof that the relay on their eyes with the Databook scan.

Senju Clan doesn't have Wood Release which was stated repeately throughout this thread. We corrected you on this.

Senjus are known to inherit the yang of the sage while the uchihas have yin. They're not limited to a sharingan or mokuton, the only one person in the senju that had mokuton (from what we know) and back then and a few Uchihas awakened their sharingans too. So since they didn't have their eyes yet, were they useless? No, Izuna as a kid did very well and their father didn't use his sharingan when fighting Butsuma senju.

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And he was evenly strong with Taijama Uchiha. Mangekyo Sharingan didn't even exist at that time because adult Izuna and Madara were the first in their clan to awaken the mangekyo sharingan

Indra and Ashura were known to inherit the Yang and Yin chakra of the Sage.

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Senju and Uchiha were known as Indra and Ashura's decendants inheriting the same:

Uchiha: "Exceptional Chakra and The Sharingan"

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So there's something that we should consider there.
Maybe back then they were using several Uchiha kinjutsu to compensate if they were unable to use their eyes.

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I'm sure there're other techniques out there that don't require a Sharingan like Izanami or Izanagi.

This is crap. Mostly speculation.

I know he has wood release but that's not the point. The point here is that senjus don't rely on wood release for recognition and the Uchihas don't always rely on the sharingan. Being expertise in taijutsu, genjutsu, and ninjutsu is very vague. Uchihas are also experts in ninjutsu, taijutsu, and especially genjutsu.



Uchihas fit the same diagram as the senjus as well. Despite being genjutsu elites, there ninjutsu, taijutsu, and weapon mastery has been shown to be one of the best in the series.
8 gates is not a technique of senjus
The first Hokage's scrolls were a whole bunch of different swords he can summon out for battle. It was shown in a Madara vs Hashirama flashback.

I gave you the Databook scan.

That is your opinion. That is not fact.

Well that's by databook. I've been using manga pages. The databook was very vague back then and they only emphasize the skills of Uchihas by each individual profile. Right?

Like Itachi who is an uchiha was not only praised for his visual prowess but his skills with kenjutsu and Sasuke was praised for his high level of ninjutsu too. Stuff like that. I know what the databook says but we also have to include individual profiles of the uchiha and what we see written in the manga too.



Yeah well both of them barely used it in a fight anyways.

Again, if anything the Manga was vague.

And you didn't have an argument using the Uchiha Clan as a whole so you used Itachi and others as example.

That wasn't stated anywhere in the manga. We can't assume that 8 gates is for senju because it seems right to us. I'm going by what we know and confirmed.


I'm talking exactly about Itachi and Sasuke as well. Uchihas still lived on the outside of the village.
Stuff like crow clone technique is nothing of konoha and the senjus. Don't forget that Madara and Hashirama established the konoha system, so you can't give credit to only one group.
Uchihas spit out high level A rank firestyle techniques and that's a ninjutsu that doesn't require the sharingan. Look at Itachi's taijutsu it's outstanding and one of the best in the series.
So Senjus have a thousands skills yeah whatever but the Uchihas never fell short in these categories too.


That was Tobirama's scroll not Hashirama. He invented the technique so no, It doesn't work that way. What we saw against Madara is what we get.


Well Itachi and Sasuke are both part of Uchihas, we can't neglect that too. The manga has been clear in several cases. We've seen many examples of this in the chuunin exam and Itachi.
Uchiha kinjutsus are no joke too and it didn't take a sharingan to use Uchiha flame formation did it?

That is your arugement. But you only focus on a few when the whole Senju Clan were known to be experts in all areas. You just lost that argument. :|

 

[Dantee]

I understand what you're saying here but the clan was most widely known for their sharingan. It's really not the same as the senju clan and mokuton. In fact mokuton is what tipped the scale in favor of Senju.